Russia-Serbia

[Spudulika]

At Loko very shortly for the "brotherhood match" and much is being spoken about the need for a big win before facing Ireland. The local media are slagging off Arshavin for not being a leader, Zhirkov for copping out and are basically down on all their players. There is a really nasty atmosphere around with lots of skinheaded goons from both sides strutting their stuff. Nice parallel of two Orthodox countries facing off with 2 "catholic" countries over in Dublin going at it.

Looking forward to seeing some good football though, no love lost between the players and a few of the Serbians basedor were based here.

[SwanVsDalton]

Nice one Spud. Looking forward to hearing some first hand reports of how the Russians are faring up, especially before my first trip to the Motherland in a month.

[Spudulika]

When you're coming let me know, I'll stand you a pint of Bass :-)

[Spudulika]

Should mention it's been tipping it down all day here so no need to water the pitch. Decent crowd in with both sides chanting "Kosovo is Serbia"

[SwanVsDalton]

When you're coming let me know, I'll stand you a pint of Bass :-)

Be arriving the Saturday after Slovakia match. Taking in Moscow, then taking train up to St.Petersburg for a few days after the Russia game. Very much looking forward to it. Forget the Bass, I'll have something local!

[Spudulika]

So far so good, I'd love if the Ireland match was here, so much better than that craphole down the other end of the red line. The Serbians are very negative and look like they've packed the midfield. Arshavin is playing well, came close, but nothing too exciting so far.

[Spudulika]

Be arriving the Saturday after Slovakia match. Taking in Moscow, then taking train up to St.Petersburg for a few days after the Russia game. Very much looking forward to it. Forget the Bass, I'll have something local!

You're doing the right thing, and arriving at the right time too. Seems most I've been hearing from are landing in just before the match!

[Sullivinho]

Cheers for the updates spudulika.


Be arriving the Saturday after Slovakia match. Taking in Moscow, then taking train up to St.Petersburg for a few days after the Russia game. Very much looking forward to it. Forget the Bass, I'll have something local!

Just don't end up in a barrel floating down the river Swan. You know how the song goes; "There's only one Rasputin...only one..."

[Spudulika]

Russia not playing well, making a sub already. Kerzhakov faking an injury, Pogrebnyak on.

[Spudulika]

Arshavin just split one of the Serbs open with his head. Russian defence is awful, if the Serbs put a 2nd striker in they'd wreck them. Got a boxers neck under his left brow. Atmos building and building. Pantelic is losing it, he's stuck up front on his own and not getting support.

Extra: Arshavin off, Bilyatedinov on. Big homecoming welcome for Dinyar, his father is sitting in the section below me (west stand).

[Spudulika]

Half time, should have been a free kick for a clear trip (well time) on Krasic. Krasic was outstripping Berezutskiy for speed (carthorse vs carthorse). Horrible match, doesn't match the atmos and yet it feels like it could take off in the 2nd half. Bad form from Arshavin.

[Spudulika]

Subs on for both teams, Russians brought on Shishkin for Anyukov. Anyukov was very good and the best of the defenders. Zhirkov improved towards the end of the half but not by much. Rain has stopped and it's a little colder now.

[Spudulika]

Goal Russia

[Spudulika]

Okay shot, keeper dropped it in front of Pogrebnyak and 1-0. Came from a decent move, but horrible keeping. Game on, so hopefully the Serbs will stand up to their big brother.

[Spudulika]

Chants are alternating between - Russia forward/attack and Kosovo is Serbia. When the latter is chanted the entire stadium is singing. I only counted the last 3 times it's been chanted during the match. There's an English journo I met earlier covering the match, first time in Moscow but speaks the lingo. Should be funny old report from him.

[Spudulika]

Ignashevich on for Zhirkov.

[paul_oshea]

Should mention it's been tipping it down all day here so no need to water the pitch. Decent crowd in with both sides chanting "Kosovo is Serbia"

Go in and shout its recognised by all UN nations to be a seperate country....in a quick catchy chant.

[paul_oshea]

Chants are alternating between - Russia forward/attack and Kosovo is Serbia. When the latter is chanted the entire stadium is singing. I only counted the last 3 times it's been chanted during the match. There's an English journo I met earlier covering the match, first time in Moscow but speaks the lingo. Should be funny old report from him.

Ah i finally got it....

your updates aren't coming as mobile.

[Junior]

http://www.101greatgoals.com/videodisplay/andrey-arshavin-subbed-after-head-collision-with-ninkovic-(russia-serbia)-14839386/

Arshavin head clash

[Spudulika]

:-) Sorry, it's a pain, I'm on wi-fi and it's a bit patchy (all that concrete). I just keep smiling when they chant about Kosovo, you hear the same thing in Croatian football grounds, except they chant in support of Kosovo. Then they complain about "Albanians" smuggling and causing crime in the domovina! Raining again, but drizzle. Would love to see the odds of a 1-1.

[Spudulika]

I think Torbinskiy's on, about time. Very good player and should add a bite before the end. Serbia seem clueless at times, Pavlyuchenko is a shadow of the player he was 4 years ago.

[Spudulika]

Pavlyuchenko just taken off, Shirokov on. Russia looking to hold on. Looked a clear penalty a minute ago, if Quigley got one against Sligo, then surely Serbia deserved one. Ignashevich all over Pantelic (I think) and shoved him as he was about to make the ball.

[Spudulika]

Russia close to making it 2, Bilyatedinov excellent down the left, laid it to a Berezutskiy who couldn't keep his shot down, in fairness he began his run last night so he must have been tired when he got to the edge of the Serbian peno box. Maybe I'm seeing things, but Russia have less subs than Serbia, didn't hear of injuries earlier today. Nothing on the hand out either.

[Spudulika]

3 minutes injury time, Russia not really under pressure. Serbia showed their intentions by taking off Tosic and Krasic. Gazprom must have "invested" again.

[Spudulika]

All over, on this showing Ireland have a serious chance, especially on a bigger pitch like Luzhniki. If we have a full team out I wouldn't be worried about losing, more about nicking a goal early and keeping them back. If Bilyatedinov plays we could have trouble, but there's nothing to fear in Russia and the atmosphere won't be as intimidating in the other stadium. Okay, I'm off to grab a local cider before heading to the best sports bar in the city for the ireland match.

[SwanVsDalton]

Sounds positive although I try not to read too much into friendlies. Confirms what a lot of us suspected about Russia - we're in with a shout. Win against Slovakia will be crucial in creating momentum and confidence.

[Spudulika]

That's the key, putting one over the Slovaks. Last time in Dublin Ireland had the most unusual tactics againsst Russia. They let them play and resorted to hoofing the ball. I still wonder whether this came from Trap or the players. Ireland need someone to stand on Arshavin for 90minutes, to run at the 2 centre backs (chips over the top work against them as they're very slow on the turn) and if Kerzhakov plays to man mark him.

Bloody security here are a nightmare, we're all standing waiting to leave but nobody is even sure what exit. Nuts.

[Spudulika]

Bad stewarding here tonight, not normal and they brought in an outside company to do it (not the Loko guys). Still no sign of movement and it's freezing!

[Crosby87]

What kind of food do they serve there, in the Russian Stadiums?
Big article last week in the NYT about how Papa Johns and KFC are invading that country. Apptly you can make your whole investment back and start turning massive profit in only 2 years with a Papa Franchise.
They must not have very good pizza there if they love Papa Johns though. Which was the point of my question.
Also Moscow must be expensive as **** if they charge more for a pizza there than here.

[mypost]

Decent crowd in with both sides chanting "Kosovo is Serbia"

No surprise, as it is.

[SkStu]

No surprise, as it is.

explain. I would have thought Serbia is Serbia.

Even when Kosovo was part of Serbia, it was still autonomous. Russia, Serbia's historical ally, is one of the very few countries to refuse to recognise Kosovo's independence.

[CraftyToePoke]

to run at the 2 centre backs (chips over the top work against them as they're very slow on the turn)

Long a possible starter then against them, made some well timed runs of that nature in the Croatia game I thought. More likely as an impact sub though I suppose if Keane and Doyle are available.

[mypost]

explain. I would have thought Serbia is Serbia.

Even when Kosovo was part of Serbia, it was still autonomous. Russia, Serbia's historical ally, is one of the very few countries to refuse to recognise Kosovo's independence.

Most countries that recognise it, do so as punishment for what happened in 1999. Serbia is trying to put it's past behind it, doing what is asked of it by the international community, and is a free, open, welcoming EU-candidate country.

Kosovo has every right to feel aggrieved by what happened then. That however, does not entitle them to declare "independence" when they feel like it to pis off Serbia. Kosovo's declaration of "independence" is declared illegal and their border stamps are unrecognised by Belgrade, as they should be.

[paul_oshea]

:-) Sorry, it's a pain, I'm on wi-fi and it's a bit patchy (all that concrete). I just keep smiling when they chant about Kosovo, you hear the same thing in Croatian football grounds, except they chant in support of Kosovo. Then they complain about "Albanians" smuggling and causing crime in the domovina! Raining again, but drizzle. Would love to see the odds of a 1-1.

Doesn't everyone complain about the albanians?

Ya you were up in the press box.

mypost the rational illogical thinker.

[Closed Account 2]

explain. I would have thought Serbia is Serbia.

Even when Kosovo was part of Serbia, it was still autonomous. Russia, Serbia's historical ally, is one of the very few countries to refuse to recognise Kosovo's independence.


I'm afraid this is a rather catastrophic over-simplification of the Kosovo recognition issue. "Very few countries", well Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, (in fact most of Latin America bar Peru and Colombia) haven't recognised it. All ex Soviet countries (Russia, all the 'istans, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, even Georgia, the NATO poster-boy of the region) do not recognise. The only ex-USSR countries that do recognise it are the politically supine Batic trio. Even within the EU Spain, Greece and Romania don't recognise it. Within the Islamic world, which the Kosovans have tried court, Iran, Indonesia and Pakistan (3 of the largest countries in terms of population) do not recognise it. On the subject of countries with big populations neither China nor India have recognised Kosovo, nor have 75% of African countries (including the biggest ones - e.g. South Africa, Nigeria).

The ratio a few months ago was something like 60:100 in terms of countries that recognised : didnt recognise it. Much of the NATO club (USA, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, UK, Scandinavia) may recognise it, but that doesn't mean the majority of countries across the world recognise it.

[paul_oshea]

Edmundo don't worry skstu has an over-simplification regarding a lot of issues.

[Spudulika]

What kind of food do they serve there, in the Russian Stadiums?
Big article last week in the NYT about how Papa Johns and KFC are invading that country. Apptly you can make your whole investment back and start turning massive profit in only 2 years with a Papa Franchise.
They must not have very good pizza there if they love Papa Johns though. Which was the point of my question.
Also Moscow must be expensive as **** if they charge more for a pizza there than here.

Loko is the best by far of the stadia in the RFPL, though the food is awful. Also no beer and the quality is poor. Luzhniki, on the other hand, is far worse. Best to eat up at Frunzenskaya before the match (McDonalds, MooMoo, Papa Johns etc) and walk the last couple of kms down. Pizza quality varies in Russia, usually not great, not a patch on Croatia, but there are signs of improvement. Too many cheap items used to pad it all out though. KFC is in a while though with a local partner, Rostiks, it does well but they wouldn't be a patch on local cuisine. Russians prefer what they eat at home (slop - sorry, had to say it) or sushi.


explain. I would have thought Serbia is Serbia.

Even when Kosovo was part of Serbia, it was still autonomous. Russia, Serbia's historical ally, is one of the very few countries to refuse to recognise Kosovo's independence.

Kosovo wouldn't quite be a state in the purest sense, but what is? It essentially is a gangser state, much like its neighbours after the war. It was established to alienate islamic fundies who are quite active in Bosnia and also to try clean up the criminality, though Kosovars (of all shades) seem to have this odd streak going through them. Where we're in Croatia there is a town that was repopulated with Croats from Kosovo (displaced in fighting there). While I've great time for them and like them, they are different and their mentality is closer to that of Albanian than Serbian - ditto with Kosovar Serbs.

The whole issue isn't simple, it's a major cause for debate in Russia and the blame can largely be laid at Tito's door, and a guy who was "active" with a coke bottle and a stick.


Most countries that recognise it, do so as punishment for what happened in 1999. Serbia is trying to put it's past behind it, doing what is asked of it by the international community, and is a free, open, welcoming EU-candidate country.

Kosovo has every right to feel aggrieved by what happened then. That however, does not entitle them to declare "independence" when they feel like it to pis off Serbia. Kosovo's declaration of "independence" is declared illegal and their border stamps are unrecognised by Belgrade, as they should be.

Also remember there is a heavy military presence there to protect Serb civilians and Orthodox and Catholic sites, I think even the Croatians are beginning to find it unfunny.


Doesn't everyone complain about the albanians?

Ya you were up in the press box.

mypost the rational illogical thinker.

No, not quite in the press box, the club office is near so it's handier, indoors and they serve hot drinks. Plus the waitresses are, well, there aren't waitresses for the journos, god alone knows what would happen if there were!

[Junior]

No, not quite in the press box, the club office is near so it's handier, indoors and they serve hot drinks. Plus the waitresses are, well, there aren't waitresses for the journos, god alone knows what would happen if there were!

One things for sure Spud - You wouldnt even notice them, head buried deep in that book of yours.

[SkStu]

I'm afraid this is a rather catastrophic over-simplification of the Kosovo recognition issue. "Very few countries", well Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, (in fact most of Latin America bar Peru and Colombia) haven't recognised it. All ex Soviet countries (Russia, all the 'istans, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, even Georgia, the NATO poster-boy of the region) do not recognise. The only ex-USSR countries that do recognise it are the politically supine Batic trio. Even within the EU Spain, Greece and Romania don't recognise it. Within the Islamic world, which the Kosovans have tried court, Iran, Indonesia and Pakistan (3 of the largest countries in terms of population) do not recognise it. On the subject of countries with big populations neither China nor India have recognised Kosovo, nor have 75% of African countries (including the biggest ones - e.g. South Africa, Nigeria).

The ratio a few months ago was something like 60:100 in terms of countries that recognised : didnt recognise it. Much of the NATO club (USA, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, UK, Scandinavia) may recognise it, but that doesn't mean the majority of countries across the world recognise it.

Fair enough Edmundo - i bow to your clearly superior knowledge. I was going on what i had read and have been told. I should verify these things independently i suppose. I do have quite an in-depth knowledge of the break-up of Yugoslavia but find it easier to simplify things on message boards as it is a very complicated situation.


Edmundo don't worry skstu has an over-simplification regarding a lot of issues.

Yeah good one. What is your opinion on the Kosovo independence issue Paul? Unless you have something to contribute you should stay out of it. Not cool.

[SkStu]

Kosovo wouldn't quite be a state in the purest sense, but what is? It essentially is a gangser state, much like its neighbours after the war. It was established to alienate islamic fundies who are quite active in Bosnia and also to try clean up the criminality, though Kosovars (of all shades) seem to have this odd streak going through them. Where we're in Croatia there is a town that was repopulated with Croats from Kosovo (displaced in fighting there). While I've great time for them and like them, they are different and their mentality is closer to that of Albanian than Serbian - ditto with Kosovar Serbs.

absolutely. Kosovo was a very unique place even in Yugoslav terms back in pre-break up days. In fact, it was the tensions in Kosovo between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs that led to Milosevic abandoning his communist principles in favour of Serb nationalism. (pardon the over simplifications!!!!) - maybe their "odd streak" is a guilt complex!!

Where in Croatia are you (occasionally) based Spud?

[DannyInvincible]

But, Stu, what's all this got to do with a Russia-Serbia match? ;)

What happened with Zhirkov? I've heard he was subjected to booing and missiles being thrown at him before Advocaat had to substitute him. Something about it being related to his move to Anzhi Makhachkala. Any explanation for that? Presumably something to do with Dagestani separatism?

[SkStu]

But, Stu, what's all this got to do with a Russia-Serbia match? ;)

ask me that in 5 pages time!

[DannyInvincible]

The ratio a few months ago was something like 60:100 in terms of countries that recognised : didnt recognise it. Much of the NATO club (USA, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, UK, Scandinavia) may recognise it, but that doesn't mean the majority of countries across the world recognise it.

That's interesting. So when would it become a state in its own right? Once the UN recognises it? Once Serbia acknowledges it? What if Serbia at some point remained the solitary state around the world not to recognise it? If I'm not mistaken, 122 states recognise Palestine as a state but the UN cannot recognise it as a state insofar as at least one of the permanent members on the security council are prepared to continue vetoing any decision to recognise it.

[Spudulika]

One things for sure Spud - You wouldnt even notice them, head buried deep in that book of yours.

I save my reading for trains - oh, wait - :p


absolutely. Kosovo was a very unique place even in Yugoslav terms back in pre-break up days. In fact, it was the tensions in Kosovo between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs that led to Milosevic abandoning his communist principles in favour of Serb nationalism. (pardon the over simplifications!!!!) - maybe their "odd streak" is a guilt complex!!

Where in Croatia are you (occasionally) based Spud?

Normally in Knin, but I'll not get back until the end of October but will spend 2 weeks in December and most of January. Lovely spot but still not home.

You've simplified it perfectly - or rather summed it up. Kosovo Polje (Kosovo Meadow/Field) is an emotive place for Serbs, it's where they bravely took on the Turks, lost and a myth grew up surrounding it and the execution of (I think) King Lazar. The flashpoint for the increase in Serb nationalism came from - deep breath as this is all true - a Serb farmers pleasure time with a stick and coke bottle. He was caught on the job with said items and claimed it was a sexual assault by local Kosovars. So it gave Milosevic the excuse to go there, make a speech about how Serbs will no longer take it in such a manner and he would fight for their rights. At the same time his good buddy Tudjman was whipping up old Ustache memories and surrounding himself with gangsters, scaring moderate Croatian-Serbs into the arms of the extremists. Next up came the two strong men (Tudjman and Milosevic) who decided to carve up Bosnia between them while allowing Dubrovnik be a free city (a Monaco of the Adriatic). But vows were broken, hell arrived in Bosnia, Dubrovnik was bombed as the Croatians double-crossed their Serbian partners and we can point to Kosovo being the turning point - and point at which the "great powers" should have copped on. Instead they've handed a gangster state independence and poured funds in. All in all though, Kosovo is a stunning country/province/place.

But, Stu, what's all this got to do with a Russia-Serbia match? ;)

What happened with Zhirkov? I've heard he was subjected to booing and missiles being thrown at him before Advocaat had to substitute him. Something about it being related to his move to Anzhi Makhachkala. Any explanation for that? Presumably something to do with Dagestani separatism?

No, I didn't see that, just that he played badly and the fans got on his back. When he left Russia he slagged off the league (that he was too big for it), so when he played badly he got it back. Nothing thrown, from what I saw. Dagestan is a strange issue in Russia, it's suffering from the general civil war in the Caucasus, though Moscow is committed to investing in the region because of the 2014 games.

[mypost]

That's interesting. So when would it become a state in its own right? Once the UN recognises it? Once Serbia acknowledges it? What if Serbia at some point remained the solitary state around the world not to recognise it? If I'm not mistaken, 122 states recognise Palestine as a state but the UN cannot recognise it as a state insofar as at least one of the permanent members on the security council are prepared to continue vetoing any decision to recognise it.

If it went about seeking independence from Serbia as Montenegro did, maybe more would recognise it. Kosovo suddenly declared themselves independent , Montenegro went the Czechoslovakia "Velvet Divorce" route, and held a referendum, before splitting. Belgrade didn't stand in their way.

[SkStu]

Normally in Knin, but I'll not get back until the end of October but will spend 2 weeks in December and most of January. Lovely spot but still not home.

You've simplified it perfectly - or rather summed it up. Kosovo Polje (Kosovo Meadow/Field) is an emotive place for Serbs, it's where they bravely took on the Turks, lost and a myth grew up surrounding it and the execution of (I think) King Lazar. The flashpoint for the increase in Serb nationalism came from - deep breath as this is all true - a Serb farmers pleasure time with a stick and coke bottle. He was caught on the job with said items and claimed it was a sexual assault by local Kosovars. So it gave Milosevic the excuse to go there, make a speech about how Serbs will no longer take it in such a manner and he would fight for their rights. At the same time his good buddy Tudjman was whipping up old Ustache memories and surrounding himself with gangsters, scaring moderate Croatian-Serbs into the arms of the extremists. Next up came the two strong men (Tudjman and Milosevic) who decided to carve up Bosnia between them while allowing Dubrovnik be a free city (a Monaco of the Adriatic). But vows were broken, hell arrived in Bosnia, Dubrovnik was bombed as the Croatians double-crossed their Serbian partners and we can point to Kosovo being the turning point - and point at which the "great powers" should have copped on. Instead they've handed a gangster state independence and poured funds in. All in all though, Kosovo is a stunning country/province/place..

I didnt know that about Dubrovnik. But I thought that the Bosniak president was involved in the discussions of a division of B&H and hoped to retain some lands for the Bosniaks... maybe he saw the writing on the wall and was looking to get what he could for him/his people when he could? The sad thing is that these guys - Milosevic, Tudjman, Karadzic etc - created the situation such that they were unwilling/unable to take a principled stand to end the forced unity that Tito imposed through "plantation". Easy for me to say obviously but they should have abandoned the complex idea of ethnicity and looked simply at borders. I think thats what "the people" were mostly concerned about, certainly the Croats.

Though DannyInvincible, you are right - we should leave it at that!

[paul_oshea]

Fair enough Edmundo - i bow to your clearly superior knowledge. I was going on what i had read and have been told. I should verify these things independently i suppose. I do have quite an in-depth knowledge of the break-up of Yugoslavia but find it easier to simplify things on message boards as it is a very complicated situation.



Yeah good one. What is your opinion on the Kosovo independence issue Paul? Unless you have something to contribute you should stay out of it. Not cool.

I don't have an "informed" opinion like you given that your partner is croatian if i remember correctly.

however it reminds me of a story a teacher once told us in school, if we in roscommon decided we(lets say the demographics have changed here somewhat and the brazilians are the we) want to break away from Ireland set out own state, we could. The point is simple, bar the ethnicity issue, if I were serbian I would feel somewhat aggrieved.

And just because I don't take part in every single argument doesn't mean my point is any less valid. Time being a major factor for some of that. NOt that I don't have an opinion ;) :D But in these things on these kinda forums, I realise that there are more informed people on here than I, so sometimes it can be good to realise that :wink:

[Closed Account 2]

That's interesting. So when would it become a state in its own right?

Well there is no hard and fast answer, but if the majority of UN nations recognised it then the case for a state coming into existance is very strong. Obviously there are problems as certain countries might always be opposed to recognition of another (due to loss of teritory etc), and there is the question of if a small country (e.g. Vatican) should have the same weight as massive countries (e.g. China), and the question of if a country makes a recognition based on the will of its people (e.g. via referendum) or just on the will of it's leader (e.g. North Korea). But if you accept that the number of UN countries (over 190) is sufficicently large to iron out these problems, then I think half (95) would be a reasonable starting point.


Once the UN recognises it? Once Serbia acknowledges it? What if Serbia at some point remained the solitary state around the world not to recognise it?

Well if all the other UN nations recognise it apart from Serbia then it would make sense to recognise it.


If I'm not mistaken, 122 states recognise Palestine as a state but the UN cannot recognise it as a state insofar as at least one of the permanent members on the security council are prepared to continue vetoing any decision to recognise it.

Well that is the problem with the out-of-datepermanent member system. I don't know the numerics of te Palestine situation, but if 122 of 193 UN countries recognise it then there is a strong case for recognition (i.e. well over half, even more when you assume some countries will abstain from voting, reducing the 193 number).

The trouble is the principle of self determination is complex. In a broad sense all peoples should be allowed to govern themselves, but where do you draw the line ? What if the north is united with Ireland, but say Antrim declares it wants to leave a united Ireland ? What if the Mormons of Utah want to leave the USA, as pretty much happened in the Mormon Wars of the 1830s? Should the Kleinfontien and Oriana be allowed to ceed from South Africa? Or on a more sinister note, what if David Kouresh and his hundreds of followers had legally attempted to declare the outskirts of Waco to be independent from the USA ? There has to be an element of due process and some sort of majority recognition makes the most sense. Don't forget in all of these examples there will be other people (minorities) in these "new states", there are Serbs living in Kosovo (there probably wont be in a decades time but that's another issue). They, and the gypsy (romani) inhabitants need to have guarentees about personal saftey, and assurances that their culture will be protected.

In any indepence situation / break-up of a country there is always the potential for massive problems, if due proceedure occurs there is chance this can be minimised, but if indepence is just rushed in with no regard for due international process then the risks are much greater.

[mypost]

Well if all the other UN nations recognise it apart from Serbia then it would make sense to recognise it.

It depends on local circumstances. I don't recognise Abkhazia, Transdniester, or Kosovo as "independent" states, because of either aggression, hostility, and/or simply giving the fingers to another sovereign state. They all belong to the relevant state.

[Crosby87]

If any of you all want to watch something great mixing sports and sad Croatia/Serb/Yugoslavian stuff watch the ESPN 30 for 30 about Vlade Divac And the late (As A Nets fan Great, Great) Drazen Petrovic. I loved it. Brought a weird salty discharge to my eyes more than once. Couldn't believe how poignant it was.

Also I would point out that as per last weeks article in Sports Illustrated about the Palestinian Team, there are more countries in FIFA than the UN.... And also a lot more countries than people probably think already out of the WC. I know a lot of people know that but some definitely think being in the UN and FIFA is mutually exclusive when it is certainly not at all.