Does the success of one team in Europe benefit the league as a whole?

[desaintsno.12]

All this nonsense about how a team would dominate for years if they got the millions in prize money from getting to the group stages is very annoying. Obviously none of you remember the last 10 or so years when we had Shelbourne spending millions, Cork spending millions, Drogheda spending millions, Bohs spending millions and even Pats spent a few million when Kellegher took over. Now did any of these dominate forever? No they didn't, they all won leagues alright but dominate - no. If Rovers or any club get to the groups stages in europe the resulting prize money would have no more of an effect on us than it did when Shels/Bohs/Drogheda/Cork/Pats had millions pumped into them over the last decade. The only difference being we might spend the money more wisely than the other clubs did.

its not really the same. That was in a time when money was far far easier to come by for clubs. Very very different world now. No teams will splash cash like that again. if Rovers come into serious cash they will be miles ahead financially with no team being able to spend anything even near what they can

[peadar1987]

its not really the same. That was in a time when money was far far easier to come by for clubs. Very very different world now. No teams will splash cash like that again. if Rovers come into serious cash they will be miles ahead financially with no team being able to spend anything even near what they can

I don't think that was really his point. He was saying that teams in the past have spent big, and sure they got success, but it didn't mean a whitewash over teams who spent less.

[desaintsno.12]

ye but there was always another team that had a few bob coming around the corner. Plus Rovers have been given a far better infastructure then the other teams had.

[fionnsci]

what benefit is it to St. Pats if any other team in the league does well?

Improves how the public views the league, improves the co-efficient, attracts extra publicity..... how does it not benefit St Pat's?

[Jicked]

Improves how the public views the league, improves the co-efficient, attracts extra publicity..... how does it not benefit St Pat's?

Its amazing how short sighted people are. If a team made the group stages there'd be a lot of really obvious boosts to every club in the league. To start with, the profile of the League would be much higher, as every barstooler in the country will know the qualifying team reasonably well. That will allow the FAI to push for more sponsorship for the League on the back of increased publicity, and every club would see a bit of that through prize-money. There'd be a whole host of other opportunities for any well run club to take advantage of as well.

[peadar1987]

ye but there was always another team that had a few bob coming around the corner. Plus Rovers have been given a far better infastructure then the other teams had.

But as other people have mentioned, Shams doing well in Europe improves the league's coefficient, increases interest across the board, and generates more advertising and TV revenue, which is split between the clubs. And who's to say that Shams' success wouldn't spur someone else to invest in another one of the league's teams? One team has to make the breakthrough to push the league forwards, or else we'll always be stuck in a rut. If it's not Shams, then it'll be Cork, or Derry, or Monaghan. The rest of the league has to swallow any parochialism and recognise that in the long run, success internationally is good for everyone.

[Mr A]

Maybe you're right, but I don't think Rovers making the group stages would bring a single extra person through the gates in any game not involving Rovers.

Maybe there would be a small impact on league sponsorship and therefore prize-money, but it's really conjecture. And the extra money might mean Rovers are untouchable for a few years which may damage one of the leagues great strengths- that nobody manages to dominate.

[peadar1987]

Maybe you're right, but I don't think Rovers making the group stages would bring a single extra person through the gates in any game not involving Rovers.

I live in hope. If the bandwagon jumpers go through the gates of the Carlisle, Terryland, or the Brandywell to watch an actual domestic game, I think the chances are higher that they'll come back than if they were only there for an exhibition against some foreign side's reserves.



Maybe there would be a small impact on league sponsorship and therefore prize-money, but it's really conjecture. And the extra money might mean Rovers are untouchable for a few years which may damage one of the leagues great strengths- that nobody manages to dominate.

Of course it's conjecture, but for me, the league's in a poor enough state that hoping for something to shake things up isn't such a bad thing. Maybe it's a product of the team I support. The best Bray can ever realistically hope for in the short to medium term is perhaps 3rd or 4th place in the league. It makes no real difference to us which particular teams are ahead of and behind us! A supporter of Sligo, Pat's, Derry or Dundalk might feel differently.

[Jicked]

Maybe you're right, but I don't think Rovers making the group stages would bring a single extra person through the gates in any game not involving Rovers.

Maybe there would be a small impact on league sponsorship and therefore prize-money, but it's really conjecture. And the extra money might mean Rovers are untouchable for a few years which may damage one of the leagues great strengths- that nobody manages to dominate.

No-one is expecting a group of 300 people to suddenly go along to Limerick v. Salthill if Rovers make the Europa League group stages. But it will help bring money in to the game in Ireland, through TV money, sponsorship and you'd also see more good players playing in the league (we would be able to bring in better quality players, leaving some of our players to filter out to other teams). That money will go to other clubs, and if they're well run they can spend it on improving facilities, promotion, or developing youth structures which over time will bring in more fans. It would be a slow, incremental thing, but is the one way we might actually advance the league instead of hoping for a sugar daddy to buy up a half dozen clubs.

[harleyleeds]

. And who's to say that Shams' success wouldn't spur someone else to invest in another one of the league's teams?

One team has to make the breakthrough

The rest of the league has to swallow any parochialism and recognise that in the long run, success internationally is good for everyone.

Shams success wouldnt spur someone else to invest in one of the leagues other teams, there Ive said it.

Id prefer it to be Mons

Parochialisim is thrown about as a way of putting doen all who disagree with your point but has nothing to do with this, I dont like Shams and wont support them thats football not parochialisim.

[marinobohs]

No-one is expecting a group of 300 people to suddenly go along to Limerick v. Salthill if Rovers make the Europa League group stages. But it will help bring money in to the game in Ireland, through TV money, sponsorship and you'd also see more good players playing in the league (we would be able to bring in better quality players, leaving some of our players to filter out to other teams). That money will go to other clubs, and if they're well run they can spend it on improving facilities, promotion, or developing youth structures which over time will bring in more fans. It would be a slow, incremental thing, but is the one way we might actually advance the league instead of hoping for a sugar daddy to buy up a half dozen clubs.

Sorry Jicked but that theory has more holes than the Galway defence.What is a much more likely outcome is that one team
(shams) would dominate domestic football which would lead to incresed support for them to the detriment of other clubs. Eventually winner fatigue would set in among shams supporters and crowds would deterierate there also. One club monopolising resources will never lead to a competitive league. shams team of early to mid 1980s possibly greatest example of the trend I mean.

[pineapple stu]

One club monopolising resources will never lead to a competitive league.
Dunno about that necessarily. The Rovers in the 80s example is true, but look at how the Norwegian league has developed even after Rosenborg won it 11 or so times in a row after making the CL group stages.

[marinobohs]

Dunno about that necessarily. The Rovers in the 80s example is true, but look at how the Norwegian league has developed even after Rosenborg won it 11 or so times in a row after making the CL group stages.

Apols Stu, would never work "in Ireland" more appropriate. I have always doubted the Rosenborg model would work here since Shels started to use it as a business model back in the 90's. Competitive League requires a number (greater than 1) of clubs able to compete. Given the largesse attached to Champs Lge group stage it would be impossible for any club here to compete and I certainly suspect that would result in lower crowds mid/longer term.
The idea that the barstoolers will flood back is flawed in that it presumes they are actually football fans

[pineapple stu]

Shels didn't start to use the Rosenborg model (unless you count "winning stuff" as their model; Rosenborg actually had a plan). Rosenborg won the league for 13 years in a row, so by your reckoning, the Norwegian league wasn't competitive, but it's still gone from around LoI level 25 years ago to something we can only dream of now.

I don't really know the Norwegian mentality that well, but we do seem to be quite the nation of glory-hunters compared to most, so I do think that if Rovers got into the CL group stages, you'd have people from all over the country adopting them as the one Irish team that really matters and just supporting their games in the lead up to the next Super Sunday.

[Acornvilla]

Dunno about that necessarily. The Rovers in the 80s example is true, but look at how the Norwegian league has developed even after Rosenborg won it 11 or so times in a row after making the CL group stages.
There on the verge of relegation again this season (well lower mid table but a blip could screw them), money isn't everything

Didn't they get relegated a few years ago or nearly at least when they were in the CL group stages?

[pineapple stu]

They're mid-table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norwegian_Premier_League#League_table) half way through the season; hardly "on the verge of relegation".

But that's kind of the point being argued - Rosenborg's success brought increased TV deals, increased interest to the league, more investors, etc, and now the other clubs have caught up.

[harleyleeds]

They're mid-table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norwegian_Premier_League#League_table) half way through the season; hardly "on the verge of relegation".

But that's kind of the point being argued - Rosenborg's success brought increased TV deals, increased interest to the league, more investors, etc, and now the other clubs have caught up.

So you think UCD will be a better club cos Shams qualify for the group stages of something and I think Sligo Rovers will suffer because of it , only time will tell as I really feel they will win in Tallaght and then we will all find out so putting an end to the speculation.

[marinobohs]

Shels didn't start to use the Rosenborg model (unless you count "winning stuff" as their model; Rosenborg actually had a plan). Rosenborg won the league for 13 years in a row, so by your reckoning, the Norwegian league wasn't competitive, but it's still gone from around LoI level 25 years ago to something we can only dream of now.

I don't really know the Norwegian mentality that well, but we do seem to be quite the nation of glory-hunters compared to most, so I do think that if Rovers got into the CL group stages, you'd have people from all over the country adopting them as the one Irish team that really matters and just supporting their games in the lead up to the next Super Sunday.

Shels did quote the Rosenborg model as their blueprint (often discussed it with some of their senior officials) and sent people over to see how it was done in Norway
Not too familiar with ins and outs of Norwegian football but how many across the country do you believe would "adopt" shams ? Derry fans ? Sligo fans ? dont see it myself (except UCD fan,of course :o), watching shams game on TV (as most will do next week) does not equate with ever entering a LOI ground. General goodwill towards a team is nothing like supporting them (ask Shels post Depotivo) so I doubt that many bandwagon jumpers would climb aboard mid/long term.

Anyway,lets hope we dont get to find out who is right or wrong.

[pineapple stu]

Shels did quote the Rosenborg model as their blueprint (often discussed it with some of their senior officials) and sent people over to see how it was done in Norway
So did Genesis. And we all know how that ended up.

[paul_oshea]

Thing is thats only a fraction of the point being made marinoIsCloserToshels. Tv and add revenue are as any club of Premier League and recently relegated Division 1 teams willl tell you is actually where the real money is made. But still the point is there are other means than bums on seats(or feet on terraces), though it is obviously very important too.

[osarusan]

Perhaps the whole 'Does the success of one team in Europe benefit the league as a whole' could be made into a different thread?

[Lim till i die]

Champions League group stage is years upon years away.

No one gives a toss about the Europa League group stage.

What was the question again??

[peadar1987]

Champions League group stage is years upon years away.

No one gives a toss about the Europa League group stage.

What was the question again??

The question, as always, was "How much are Limerick paying Joe Gamble?"

[Lim till i die]

The question, as always, was "How much are Limerick paying Joe Gamble?"

€1900 a week after tax is the latest rumour knocking around.

All I know is I saw them training the other night and he has a solid gold car.

And a fur coat.

And a crown!!!

[Acornvilla]

They're mid-table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norwegian_Premier_League#League_table) half way through the season; hardly "on the verge of relegation".

But that's kind of the point being argued - Rosenborg's success brought increased TV deals, increased interest to the league, more investors, etc, and now the other clubs have caught up.

Yeah I was agreeing with that, thought it was implied :)

[harleyleeds]

Champions League group stage is years upon years away.

No one gives a toss about the Europa League group stage.

What was the question again??

why would you care about the champ league either then, its not like youll be in it?

[pineapple stu]

Yeah I was agreeing with that, thought it was implied :)
Ah right. Sometimes it's just second nature to assume someone else on the internet is just a bit slow. :)

[dfx-]

€1900 a week after tax is the latest rumour knocking around.

All I know is I saw them training the other night and he has a solid gold car.

And a fur coat.

And a crown!!!

But no BBC sound effects? Limerick must be cutting back

[legendz]

When talking about money Rovers will make, I think it should be noted how much, who aren't in Europe this season, might make from the sale of McClean.

[SkStu]

Improves how the public views the league, improves the co-efficient, attracts extra publicity..... how does it not benefit St Pat's?

Shels success did NOTHING for any team in the League. Whats to suggest Rovers success would do any different? In fact, chasing the Shels success almost led to the capitulation of a number of teams, including yours and mine.


Thing is thats only a fraction of the point being made marinoIsCloserToshels. Tv and add revenue are as any club of Premier League and recently relegated Division 1 teams willl tell you is actually where the real money is made. But still the point is there are other means than bums on seats(or feet on terraces), though it is obviously very important too.

WTF is this supposed to mean? Do you have any concept of what Irish football entails? If you do you wouldnt be trying to compare a Premier League teams business model with an Irish teams. We dont make money off TV and add revenue. We make money for the most part off sponsorship and fundraising. Even income from attendances is negligible.

What we should be doing is selling our best players for a fair price to our neighbours across the sea. That is where we can really make money as Legendz above alludes to in reference to McLean. We just havent developed the structure in the clubs yet and the FAI either dont recognise or else dont support the concept.

Paul, i cant stop you being a cheerleader/critic of Irish teams one month a year but dont try and get involved in something you have no knowledge of.

[pineapple stu]

Shels success did NOTHING for any team in the League.
That's just not true. Like it or not, the co-efficient points are important. Shels winning the few matches they did helped other teams be seeded, and so get into a second round against higher-profile opposition. It may only be small, but it's demonstrably not "NOTHING".

And also, of course, they didn't get into any group stages.

[paul_oshea]

You are missing the point again and getting clouded by the fact that I am not a supporter of any LOI club. You don't have to be a FAN to have knowledge of how a business works, and being cold and calculated here, that is the point I am trying to make, you are very short sighted and getting fazed by my standing as a non-attending person of LOI(similar to yourself, whatever you contribute to the internet/Money Transfer i dont know).

From a business model, whether or not you are a LOI fan, its about revenue through many different streams. Tv, add, commercial etc, would increase if more people were watching LOI games on TV as well as but not necessarily including more fans attending games, , this has nothing to do with you as an individual fan. YOu need to see past this.

Your second point is intrinsically linked to the point of clubs diong better in europe and getting to the group stages. Its still relatively a gamble for a lot of English sides to spend substantially on Irish players. If they kept getting to see them at Group stages of EL/CL groups then they would be showcasing at the highest level their talents, and their fees would represent that. At the moment they shoudl certainly have better sell on/appearances/goals etc clauses in the selling contracts.

[SkStu]

granted co-effieicents are useful. But they are useful primarily to one team and thereafter only to approximately one quarter of all the teams in Irish football - the ones that get to play in Europe - in a given five year period. What did Shels success do for Kilkenny City? What will a Rovers success do for Longford Town? Its extremely hard to find any tangible benefit.

[pineapple stu]

Again, Shels didn't qualify for the group stages of anything.

If they bump the profile of the league up, and that encourages more sponsors and maybe a bigger TV deal, that'd benefit Longford Town.

[SkStu]

You are missing the point again and getting clouded by the fact that I am not a supporter of any LOI club. You don't have to be a FAN to have knowledge of how a business works, and being cold and calculated here, that is the point I am trying to make, you are very short sighted and getting fazed by my standing as a non-attending person of LOI(similar to yourself, whatever you contribute to the internet/Money Transfer i dont know).

From a business model, whether or not you are a LOI fan, its about revenue through many different streams. Tv, add, commercial etc, would increase if people were watching LOI games on TV as opposed to at the grounds, this has nothing to do with you as an individual fan. YOu need to see past this.

I contribute a significant amount of my money to a number of Bohs related initiatives on a monthly basis. I also attended games for years until I left. Dont try and compare me to yourself.

Your recent post says something entirely different to the original post i quoted. Its still pie in the sky stuff. What hope do we have of people watching on TV if they wont come to the grounds. Getting people through the gates is our first challenge and will lead to the rest. To reverse it like you suggest is totally unachievable in the short term and certainly not advantageous to the league as a whole when it occurs temporarily because one team has been a success.

[SkStu]

Again, Shels didn't qualify for the group stages of anything.

If they bump the profile of the league up, and that encourages more sponsors and maybe a bigger TV deal, that'd benefit Longford Town.

i didnt say they did. The thread title says success. The Shels run is still the most high profile run that did capture the publics attention in a significant way.

The second point makes massive assumptions and possibilities ("if", "encourages", "maybe") as opposed to anything concrete. Its a stretch and you know it.

[peadar1987]

Paul makes a very good point about player transfers. At the moment, teams are unwilling to take a risk paying a decent transfer fee on an unknown quantity in the LOI. With a higher profile, LOI players in general will be worth more, and UK teams can judge them against a better-known quantity in Shamrock Rovers.

[pineapple stu]

The thread title says success.
Way too literal. Success in the context of this thread has been accepted to be qualification for the group stages of the CL or the UEFA Cup.


The second point makes massive assumptions and possibilities ("if", "encourages", "maybe") as opposed to anything concrete. Its a stretch and you know it.
It's not a stretch at all. It's what's happened in other leagues, like Norway.

[paul_oshea]

So do you think that Irish fans of PL clubs etc, first went to the ground to see "their" team play? Do you think irish people go to see wrestilng? OR go to boxing matches? No but if there is a big fight on or whatever they are all interested.

I agree that the priority should be getting fans to the ground. This is not necessarily done in the traditional sense. When do you think for example Munster "fans" started going to their games? Do you think all of them went to their games and then more just joined the wagon when they started winning things and there were no tickets left? No they watched on TV first and got an interest through that, now loads of people attend Munster matches.

[harleyleeds]

You are missing the point again and getting clouded by the fact that I am not a supporter of any LOI club. You don't have to be a FAN to have knowledge of how a business works, and being cold and calculated here, that is the point I am trying to make, you are very short sighted and getting fazed by my standing as a non-attending person of LOI(similar to yourself, whatever you contribute to the internet/Money Transfer i dont know).

From a business model, whether or not you are a LOI fan, its about revenue through many different streams. Tv, add, commercial etc, would increase if more people were watching LOI games on TV as well as but not necessarily including more fans attending games, , this has nothing to do with you as an individual fan. YOu need to see past this.



Your second point is intrinsically linked to the point of clubs diong better in europe and getting to the group stages. Its still relatively a gamble for a lot of English sides to spend substantially on Irish players. If they kept getting to see them at Group stages of EL/CL groups then they would be showcasing at the highest level their talents, and their fees would represent that. At the moment they shoudl certainly have better sell on/appearances/goals etc clauses in the selling contracts.



Paul are you in Mayo or is your location just BS and if so why dont you support either Rovers or GUFC? This is not a wind up question but really dont understand why.

[paul_oshea]

Your recent post says something entirely different to the original post i quoted. Its still pie in the sky stuff. What hope do we have of people watching on TV if they wont come to the grounds. Getting people through the gates is our first challenge and will lead to the rest. To reverse it like you suggest is totally unachievable in the short term and certainly not advantageous to the league as a whole when it occurs temporarily because one team has been a success.

So do you think that Irish fans of PL clubs etc, first went to the ground to see "their" team play? Do you think irish people go to see wrestilng? OR go to boxing matches? No but if there is a big fight on or whatever they are all interested.


I wasn't trying to compare myself to you, i said you dont go to LOI games, which you dont.

I agree that the priority should be getting fans to the ground. This is not necessarily done in the traditional sense. When do you think for example Munster "fans" started going to their games? Do you think all of them went to their games and then more just joined the wagon when they started winning things and there were no tickets left? No they watched on TV first and got an interest through that, now loads of people attend Munster matches.

[paul_oshea]

Paul are you in Mayo or is your location just BS and if so why dont you support either Rovers or GUFC? This is not a wind up question but really dont understand why.

Im not in Mayo or Ireland harleyleeds. I never had a club growing up but when I moved to Dublin I lived in Cabra park and went to a fair bohs games a season. I went to all of shels/bohs when they were in Europe with a few other non LOI supporting lads too. I don't have any affiliation to any club though(which is the easy stick taht gets round-robined to beat me with when things are said that people dont like - rather than attack the post, shoot down the credibility of the poster.).

[shellyriver]

What we should be doing is selling our best players for a fair price to our neighbours across the sea. That is where we can really make money as Legendz above alludes to in reference to McLean. We just havent developed the structure in the clubs yet and the FAI either dont recognise or else dont support the concept.
.

This is the type of madness, malaise and bad business that has seen the LOI fail to blossom.

In Sligo, for example, one of the best LOI players, ie Seamie Coleman, went for buttons. Everton and Celtic offered ridiculously insulting money -- but a derisory figure was accepted for a variety of reasons. So big cash payouts from UK are a faint hope presently.

Even looking at the best young players, look at Conor Powell couldn't even hack it with Colchester! No doubt he just signed up with Sligo Rovers hoping that Cook will be in England next year and he might get a chance to re-launch his English career. That's football.

Personally, I hope all the LOI teams go through, rising tide etc. The league is currently the most competitive it has been for years, with Sligo, Shams, Derry, Pats and Bohs, even Dundalk in with a shout. Even Drogheda can put it up to any team in the league.

The standard across the board is way up -- if Shams get into the CL group stage, good for them. Even, if they did, they're is so little between all the top Irish sides that what is to stop another of the top six/seven Irish sides doing next year what Shams are doing now?

Watched second half of Shams v FC Cop -- but for bluntness up front they were well able to match the Danes. I hope Shams get through and obviously Sligo is my first priority. Each club has to learn to manage its affairs, but a Euro breakthrough is vital for the LOI both at home, but also with a view getting a decent price for top quality that leaves.

[osarusan]

It's what's happened in other leagues, like Norway.
I always thought that some sponsor of the Norwegian league pumped in loads of cash into raising the standards, part of which was rebranding as their version of the Premier League.

[harleyleeds]

Im not in Mayo or Ireland harleyleeds. I never had a club growing up but when I moved to Dublin I lived in Cabra park and went to a fair bohs games a season. I went to all of shels/bohs when they were in Europe with a few other non LOI supporting lads too. I don't have any affiliation to any club though(which is the easy stick taht gets round-robined to beat me with when things are said that people dont like - rather than attack the post, shoot down the credibility of the poster.).

Yep I see your point but why would you not pick Bohs seeing as they were your first team? I realise that its not easy for me to understand what it would be like not to have a team from childhood but when I came over here I first was in Cleveland and started to follow the BROWNS (fanatical fans, dog pound) and when I moved to NY I still stayed with them.

[paul_oshea]

Do you like my cousin lebron?

[paul_oshea]

Ya i always sorta have but i can't just jump on the bandwagon like that.its something i personally have to feel emotionally attached to from a yoing age...besides phibsboro is a hole and i never felt too comfortable there!

[harleyleeds]

Ya i always sorta have but i can't just jump on the bandwagon like that.its something i personally have to feel emotionally attached to from a yoing age...besides phibsboro is a hole and i never felt too comfortable there!


Firstly bandwagon jumping is following someone cos there winning,second wasnt suggesting u move there and thankfully I hate basketball .

[SkStu]

So do you think that Irish fans of PL clubs etc, first went to the ground to see "their" team play? Do you think irish people go to see wrestilng? OR go to boxing matches? No but if there is a big fight on or whatever they are all interested.

I agree that the priority should be getting fans to the ground. This is not necessarily done in the traditional sense. When do you think for example Munster "fans" started going to their games? Do you think all of them went to their games and then more just joined the wagon when they started winning things and there were no tickets left? No they watched on TV first and got an interest through that, now loads of people attend Munster matches.

you keep trying to compare the league with something that it is not or that it cannot compete with. The League or the popularity of the league is an anomaly in a global sense. You cant pigeon-hole it into a particular structure that was successful in another location or sport. Anyone close to the League would acknowledge this. Very few Irish sports fans have the patience for a 30 something game league. Short sharp bursts of entertainment are what is required to capture the attention of the ADD sports fans of Ireland. Football League v. All-Ireland. League Football vs. International calendar. Heineken League vs. Magners League.

I gurantee you this - any benefit that clubs would see from European success of another club would be, at best, incremental and temporary. Any benefit that "the club that makes the breakthrough" will see will be substantial but temporary. The goodwill will end when the particular journey ends and things will revert to norm until the next season. That is the result of success in an Irish context. The result of QUALIFICATION is slightly different but the end result for the Longford Towns etc is going to be pretty much the same - incremental and temporary. "The club that makes the breakthrough" will enjoy a dominance for a long period of time littered with additional qualifications or near misses. The near misses may prove costly in the eyes of the fickle public. Maybe, over time, the rest will catch up but when you look at the history and administration of Irish football i dont see that as a definite.

Success benefits the club that is successful. It doesnt guarantee any success for the other clubs.

Pineapple - i started this discussion in the other thread. I know what i intended when i started it. That other posters may have taken it a step further has no bearing on my ability to debate the debate that i started. Either way, nobody has qualified. To date, Shels have had the most "successful" run in Irish football. That is my starting point for any assumptions.

[Spudulika]

By the reckoning of some we can borrow the line (I think Arrigo Sacchi) that you don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey. The more that's discussed and written about the LOI the better, get it up there to rival the sky leagues and we're getting somewhere. The victimization thing has been done to death by LOI followers, about time we just got on with it and realised that we'll never get the same love we give to our clubs as we give to them.

On the topic of Rosenborg, yes Shels quoted it, often, however it was the same nonsense spouted by many other clubs in smaller leagues who financially cheated their way forward. At the same time as Shels were on a run in 2004, Ollie was borrowing from friends an dnot paying bills in order to survive week to week. It was a quick fix deal and never had a concrete base. Rosenborg began at the bottom, developed their player and youth structures, and used government initiatives and sponsors to develop gradually. We've got our heads so far up sky league clubs wholes that we want to sprint before we can crawl.

An Irish club making the group stages of the CL or EL would boost the league as a whole, make it more attractive and you'd find benefactors coming out of the woodwork (like hungry worms) wanting a piece of the action. It's then up to the FAI to regulate and clubs and club comm's to behave sensibly and do it the right way. Then again, this is Ireland we're talking about, the land of a 1,000 ghost estates and zombie hotels. A 20,000 all seater stadium would be demanded and gotten by MHR for Legendz and a few others to cheer in :-)