The Vatican

[culloty82]

With the Vatican refusing to cooperate with our government after the Cloyne Report and recalling their nuncio, is it time we responded by recalling our ambassador in turn? In relation to the Church itself, there are numerous examples of churches that remain Catholic (Ukrainian Catholics, Middle Eastern Churches) that have remained Catholic even though not tied directly to Rome, but reform of our own dioceses, parishes, and hierarchy is necessary before we consider any step that radical. Incidentally, it seem a country has diplomatic relations with "the Holy See" rather than "the Vatican", because the modern state is only 82 years old, but the first term covers all the various states once ruled by the Pope.

[Eminence Grise]

Is there an ambassador to the Holy See at the moment? I thought I heard that it was a First Secretary (or some such) acting until a new ambassador is appointed. I’d have no difficulty with our ambassador to the Quirinal being ambassador to the Vatican as well, but the Vatican would go ballistic. (I’ve been doing some research recently, and the a55-kissing the state was expected to go through to establish an embassy in the first case was detestable.) Some meeja commentators have said we would lose out because the Vatican is a hub of diplomacy, but that might be an exaggeration.



Could charges of subverting the state could be laid against bishops who conspired to frustrate the government and the state’s laws? I won’t hold my breath.

Reforming the church here is too radical, and there is probably no appetite for it, but is is sorely needed. Mind you, the early Celtic church was considered closer to Christianity than the dark ages papacy that brought it to heel. So, there might be historic appeal in separating from Rome. In the meantime I’d welcome more secularisation and severing church-state ties. It might be the first step towards making this a real republic.

[peadar1987]

Unfortunately, I think any meaningful action against the Shower from Rome would lead to the catholic church condemning the government, and there are still enough people in this country who are deluded enough to think that the Vatican is some sort of reliable moral authority, to make life very difficult for Fine Gael/Labour in the next election. The country has moved on so much since the Mother and Child scheme, and even since the narrowly-passed divorce referendum, but I am afraid I don't think we've moved on quite enough.

[Eminence Grise]

Too true. Even threatening to bring the full force of the law down on the bishops would make the Vatican go into meltdown, and we’d be damned as a nation to suffer perdition for eternity. Incidentally, Matt Cooper was interviewing some people from a new Irish documentary about gay people being able to hold hands and show affection in public. You should have heard some of the fundamentalist rubbish texted in about homosexuality being an abomination before God, ya-de-ya. The church still has too much of a hold on some people. Thank God (the real one, not Benedict’s) that we’ve moved on since Noel Brown – even if it’s taken half a century. There’s none so blind as those that will not see.

So what do we do to force change?

[peadar1987]

Too true. Even threatening to bring the full force of the law down on the bishops would make the Vatican go into meltdown, and we’d be damned as a nation to suffer perdition for eternity. Incidentally, Matt Cooper was interviewing some people from a new Irish documentary about gay people being able to hold hands and show affection in public. You should have heard some of the fundamentalist rubbish texted in about homosexuality being an abomination before God, ya-de-ya. The church still has too much of a hold on some people. Thank God (the real one, not Benedict’s) that we’ve moved on since Noel Brown – even if it’s taken half a century. There’s none so blind as those that will not see.

So what do we do to force change?

Now that's the million Escudo question. I think the first step is to take control of state schools away from religious organisations. The church won't like it, but it means in maybe 40 years we'll have an electorate mature enough to make their own decisions on rational grounds, instead of doing what the Vatican thinks will best consolidate its power.

[Spudulika]

When the fake Pope signed his Bull to allow Henry II take over Ireland (to put manners on the Irish catholic church) we've been underfoot ever since. None of those churchmen we have in the Irish Catholic Church now would dare step off the gravy train, they've seen what's happened to those who speak up and it's not been nice. The Vatican is one of the most powerful states on earth, it's spy network is legendary (just count the parishes) and for any Taoiseach to stand up to them will not end well. Already some of the media have slammed Enda Kenny for grandstanding, so while they're a little correct, they also miss the point. It's not kicking the church when it's down, it's regaining some sort of control and removing education (especially Primary) is essential. Then again, this government will be like the others in their level of ineptitude and do nothing decent to move it on. Hearing "experts" talking about removing the points system and leaving cert this morning shocked me cold. Soon we'll be like the Poles and other East Europeans, exporting "Doctors" and "Professors" to work on building sites abroad, without making the point that such degrees can be bought at the local train station!

[Mr A]

Kenny compared to Hitler: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0728/1224301501818.html

I think that while there are obviously a lot of head bangers out there for whom the church can do no wrong, there are also a lot of Catholics who are delighted that Kenny has pointed out that the culture that allowed and at times facilitated abuse owes much to the Vatican. Kenny remarked at the weekend that a lot of parish priests had been in touch supporting his words. There was also a feature (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0723/1224301177540.html) in the Irish Times at the weekend that outlined the feeling of abandonment and betrayal of normal clergy. Evn the priests don't trust the bishops.

The sooner education is secularised the better, the current situation is ridiculous. But I think the RC Church will conduct a long and vigorous fighting retreat and it'll be a long time before we see meaningful reform.

[Macy]

This actually a good thing - the Church doesn't know when to stop digging, and they are turning more and more people off. Most "Catholics" don't follow the church's teaching's anyway (contraception, sex before marriage etc), so the more ridiculous they appear, the more people will see through them.

I'm actually beginning to think it's not just the culture that lead to the cover up. The whole debate around mandatory reporting and the confession highlights, to me, that it's their entire belief system that is the problem. If confession equal forgiveness, well then the abusers have squared things with their God. Those that covered it up, can confess and they're absolved by God. At each stage, the abusers and their facilitators have been absolved. The insistence that they won't comply with mandatory reporting of what is said in confession shows that they put belief ahead of the protection children.

[Wolfie]

I think the glaring downside to secularisation of education is this:

How will teenagers get last nights homework done if there is no Religion class to facilitate copying of homework or indeed fine tune ones ability to take the complete p*ss out of groooooooovy mater Dei heads????????

[Mr A]

Patsy McGarry (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0728/1224301495730.html) has another brilliant piece today, lays out a lot of facts very clearly.