Irish national identity or Irish national identities?

[Gather round]

Adams wants Northerners to have the right to vote in the presidential election - personally, I'm not convinced, as what grounds would allow them vote in this, but not in a Dáil election?

Two obvious problems: it would be attacked by opponents in the RoI as 'representation without taxation', and by the further diaspora as potentially discriminating. It might also be vulnerable to stunts etc. by unionists.

[Wolfman]

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition. Mainly because they don't want to be.
If people want to be 'both', more fool them.

[Not Brazil]

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition. Mainly because they don't want to be.
If people want to be 'both', more fool them.

I'm a "British" person born and bred in Northern Ireland - I'm proudly Irish.

What is your "conventional definition" of "Irish"?

[Gather round]

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition

Are you Ardee's leading conventional expert then?


Mainly because they don't want to be

Pretty much 100% of Ulster unionists identify with the name 'Northern Ireland' and thus with being Northern Irish. It's a very simple idea to grasp.


If people want to be 'both', more fool them

Don't be silly. They're self-evidently both British and Irish, no foolishness involved. Anyway and more generally (as NB says), dual nationality is widely recognised Worldwide.

[Plastic Paddy]

Released yesterday PP.

It seems more and more Catholics see their long term future best served in the Union - only 33% of Catholics now view Irish Unity as their long term preference.

They can bring on that Border Poll any time they like.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/survey-most-northern-ireland-catholics-want-to-remain-in-uk-16012932.html

Thanks NB, all enlightening stuff. The timing is interesting, as pointed out elsewhere. I wonder what the effect will be in subsequent polls when the ConDem cuts kick in, the subvention to NI is slashed and all those middle-class nationalists lose their civil service jobs in Stormont or wherever.

:ball: PP

[Wolfman]

Are you Ardee's leading conventional expert then?



Pretty much 100% of Ulster unionists identify with the name 'Northern Ireland' and thus with being Northern Irish. It's a very simple idea to grasp.



Don't be silly. They're self-evidently both British and Irish, no foolishness involved. Anyway and more generally (as NB says), dual nationality is widely recognised Worldwide.

No idea about the Ardee reference or whether your answer makes much sense in general.

[Wolfie]

Except British people in the North aren't Irish by any conventional definition. Mainly because they don't want to be.
If people want to be 'both', more fool them.


I'm a "British" person born and bred in Northern Ireland - I'm proudly Irish.

What is your "conventional definition" of "Irish"?

Now, now Wolfman. Definitions of "irishness" are changing.

As we both know, its possible to be a member of the Wolf community and still be proudly Irish, for instance.

[Andyh]

I don't particularly want to get into any arguments on this - just want to state things from my own perspective.

Although from Northern Ireland and a unionist background I would always describe my self as being Irish, or sometimes Northern Irish - don't really see the big deal about it, Irish is always simpler when abroad etc. I carry a UK passport, but I don't think this means that I can't be Irish.

I grew up in Belfast, my grandfather was born in County Monaghan before partition and my family came from Leitrim before that. So Its not as if i don't have the "qualifications" to be Irish.

As with others from a similar background I would not choose to hold an Irish passport, as this I don't believe it would make me any more Irish, simply a citizen of the Irish Republic, a sovereign state, within the island of Ireland.

I think this is the crux of the issue, just as Northern nationalists don't identify with the ethos and the symbols of Northern Ireland, I can't identify with the ethos/symbols/founding principles of the Republic of Ireland. Its the whole Padraig Pearse / blood sacrifice thing vs King& country at the Somme I suppose.

That said however, I do think we are all bound by a shared history and I think events in the world and the rise of the new big powers in the east will actually serve to bring North and South closer together in this century than ever before. And I do think attitudes are changing already, Enda Kenny's comments on the Vatican this week being a prime example.

If there ever were to be a single Irish state it would have to be a completely new country as it were, not just case of the south taking over the North. We would need to start from scratch, a new Constitution, flag and anthem etc. Also probably on some sort of federal model. Big changes and sacrifices all round.

[TiocfaidhArmani]

It's gonna be fun in years to come when we have people from a Polish background choosing to play for Poland over Ireland ;)

[TiocfaidhArmani]

If there ever were to be a single Irish state it would have to be a completely new country as it were, not just case of the south taking over the North. We would need to start from scratch, a new Constitution, flag and anthem etc. Also probably on some sort of federal model. Big changes and sacrifices all round.

There's a lot about unionism I don't like, but I have to respect how you and others view yourself. There's no set definition of Irishness and I see you as Irish as me, even if you have a pre-fix of Britain before you defining yourself Irish and that's your right. I'm just interested when you say about a possible federal model for any unified Ireland. Have ever read the old Sinn Féin policy, Éire Nua? You probably haven't but I'm just curious if you have. I know David Ervine thought it was a good document as it espoused a federal Ireland with a nine-county Ulster Parliament to give a sizeable portion of a power to unionists within their own province.