Macedonia V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 4th June 2011 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[thischarmingman]

Robbie Keane has been declared fit to start for the Republic of Ireland's crucial Euro 2012 qualifier clash against Macedonia tomorrow

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0603/ireland_team.html

[elroy]

Ireland team to play Macedonia in Euro 2012 Group B qualifier, Skopje, Saturday, 8.30pm:

Shay Given, Stephen Kelly, Darren O'Dea, John O'Shea, Kevin Kilbane; Aidan McGeady, Glenn Whelan, Keith Andrews, Stephen Hunt; Robbie Keane, Simon Cox

[SwanVsDalton]

Who'll be on the bench? Forde; Foley; St.Ledger/McShane; Lawrence; Ward; Long; Fahey maybe?

[French Toasht]

Yellow cards last for the full 10 games of the campaign.

So currently here is the state of play in terms of yellow cards:

Whelan (Armenia)
St Ledger (Russia)
Doyle (Russia)
Westwood (Macedonia)
Gibson (Macedonia)

The only one affected tomorrow should be Whelan, so lets hope we can keep our discipline becuase he would be a huge loss come the Slovakia game.

Must say I think this notion of the yellow cards lasting for the entirety of the campaign is a complete farce and wholely unreasonable.

[tommy_c12000]

Other than the glaring admission of Long, reasonably happy with that team. Could have been worse as the fella says.

GK: We always have a chance with Given in goal regardless of the oppostion.

RB: Kelly gets the nod. Surprised so many subscribers to the forum fancied McShane for the berth as Kelly was always ahead in "Traps pecking order." Alas with only 8 premier league starts under his belt and the vast majority before Christmas, Kelly is a weak link. But he should be able to do a job for us. Foley was the logical choice here but that word isn't contained in the Irish management's diction.

LB: Kilbane. Happy with this one tbh. The only thing Ward had over Kilbane is pace. Both are poor defenders and have bad positional sense as left backs. But Kilbane's vast experience takes the position. Macedonia can take their pick and target either wings. The ball over the top will be a worry tomorrow night.

CB: O'Shea partners O'Dea as expected. O'Dea is a player I don't rate and if St Ledger is back in full training since tues as has been reported I would have gone with St Ledger. Sledge has never left us done, has 33 appearances for PNE and has played with O'Shea before. Granted 11 wks since his last game is a gamble but it is less of a gamble than playing O'Dea there IMO.

RW: McGeady picks himself. Class act. Big game needed though defensively as well as offensively.

LW: Hunt: Happy with this one too. Although he didn't have the best of games against Scotland and has had an injury ravaged season, he is full of energy and is brimming with confidence after scoring the goal that kept Wolves in the premier league. Surprised the likes of Ken Early were clamouring for Coleman to start RW. I simply don't rate Coleman as a winger, he is a right back period. Hunt will also provide Kilbane with much needed defensive cover also.

CM: Picks itself after Gibson's withdrawal. Disappointed there is not a bit more competition from Wilson, McCarthy and Gibbo. . . but the world's not perfect. Fahy has the potential to change things up a bit if we go a goal down. So nice to have him on the bench.

Strikers: Nothing against Cox, he is a nice player but Long should really be starting. Good to see Keane entering the game on the back of 3 goals in 2 games. Long should come off bench with 30 mins to go and cause trouble. Hopefully won't be too late by then.

On the whole, due to injuries the team picks itself bar Cox which is difficult to fathom. But suppose these things happen. I would have Foley in for Kelly and Sledge in for O'Dea, but don't think two of those changes would have a huge bearing on the game.

Best of luck to the team tomorrow night. The more I look at the back 4 and the centre of midfield the more I get nervous. But we have to remember one thing, we truly have one of the world's best in goal and with that in mind I feel we will get a result tomorrow night.

1-0 Ireland with Long I mean Cox scoring mid way through the first half.

[geysir]

It's as good a team as could be expected. Trap and Tardelli have done well.
The big news is the meteoric rise of the new kid Cox.
With Delaney, Ledger, Fahey, Lawrence and Long all available on the bench, that should keep Andy Keogh out of harm's way.

[RiffRaff]

I'd be most worried about O'Dea who I dont think should be in the squad. As it is I'd have Delaney or Kelly instead of him. I think Coleman and Lawrence are good options to have from the bench so happy with the midfield selections. Not quite sure how Cox is in the squad either TBH.

[Stuttgart88]

Foley was the logical choice here but that word isn't contained in the Irish management's diction.Not sure it's that clear cut. Foley has been given his chances at RB and has looked positionally weak and has lost concentration. A few times he has been the laggard while the others pushed for offside. Westwood saved his bacon in the home game.


Not quite sure how Cox is in the squad either TBH.Squad, or team?

[geysir]

The Macedonian coach must be green with envy that we can replace Westwood with Given.

[tommy_c12000]

Not sure it's that clear cut. Foley has been given his chances at RB and has looked positionally weak and has lost concentration. A few times he has been the laggard while the others pushed for offside. Westwood saved his bacon in the home game.

Kelly last started a premier league game 29 weeks ago on 13th Nov in a 0-0 draw with Newcastle (a sobering thought). He has not seen ANY game time in the premier league since then.

Foley has started over 30 premier league games this season and has recently reverted back to his old right back position again and has performed admirably. The choice of Foley over Kelly would seem pretty logical to me, acknowledging the fact that he has yet to set the world alight on the international stage, he is the best we have for RB and should be starting

[SwanVsDalton]

Kelly last started a premier league game 29 weeks ago on 13th Nov in a 0-0 draw with Newcastle (a sobering thought). He has not seen ANY game time in the premier league since then.

Foley has started over 30 premier league games this season and has recently reverted back to his old right back position again and has performed admirably. The choice of Foley over Kelly would seem pretty logical to me, acknowledging the fact that he has yet to set the world alight on the international stage, he is the best we have for RB and should be starting

In fairness you referenced Kilbane's experience for giving him the nod, and that's a factor for Kelly too. I think he's a steadier option and just as logical in some respects.

Besides referencing Premiership starts isn't very logical - a lot of guff footballers get regular games in the Prem. ;)

[BonnieShels]

Kelly last started a premier league game 29 weeks ago on 13th Nov in a 0-0 draw with Newcastle (a sobering thought). He has not seen ANY game time in the premier league since then.

Foley has started over 30 premier league games this season and has recently reverted back to his old right back position again and has performed admirably. The choice of Foley over Kelly would seem pretty logical to me, acknowledging the fact that he has yet to set the world alight on the international stage, he is the best we have for RB and should be starting

Someone once asked AB did Kilbane ride his missus. I'm convinced that Trap got to yours.

Would you seriously dismiss Trap's opinion on that basis that he picked Kelly over Foley. What would you have done if he picked McShambles?

[Stuttgart88]

If club form was anything to go by Kenny Cunningham would never have played well at CB for Ireland, nor Breen.

I have been calling for Foley for the last 2 years, but have to admit I've been disappointed in him at RB for Ireland. Whereas Cunningham, for whatever reason, took to international football like a duck to water, Foley has been the opposite IMHO. I hope it changes. I think Kelly has more about him in terms of leadership. That's what might have swung it his way.

[tommy_c12000]

Someone once asked AB did Kilbane ride his missus. I'm convinced that Trap got to yours.

Would you seriously dismiss Trap's opinion on that basis that he picked Kelly over Foley. What would you have done if he picked McShambles?

What the hell are u on about?? Im merely stating some sound facts that make perfect sense

[tommy_c12000]

If club form was anything to go by Kenny Cunningham would never have played well at CB for Ireland, nor Breen.

I have been calling for Foley for the last 2 years, but have to admit I've been disappointed in him at RB for Ireland. Whereas Cunningham, for whatever reason, took to international football like a duck to water, Foley has been the opposite IMHO. I hope it changes. I think Kelly has more about him in terms of leadership. That's what might have swung it his way.

Thats all well and good if Kelly was an established and accomplished international like Breen or Cunningham but the fact of the matter is that he is not

[geysir]

Kelly has shown better than Foley these past games.
Plenty of time for Foley to come good.

[IsMiseSean]

Thats all well and good if Kelly was an established and accomplished international like Breen or Cunningham but the fact of the matter is that he is not

To be become an established and accomplished international like Breen or Cunningham he needs to play in games like this. Breen & Cunningham had to start somewhere. Kelly has 20caps, he played well in the Carling Cup games and considering the options at the back, I'm glad he got the nod for tomorrow.

[Murfinator]

Difficult to respect a manager who ignores someone for 3 years then sticks him right into the starting lineup for a competitive game. Reeks of Stan with Carsley, Miller and Reid.

[French Toasht]

Have listened to various pundits on the radio this evening (Eoin Hand, Mark Kinsella and Richard Sadlier) say a draw would be a great result. Really? A great result? If we draw tomorrow night, winning the group is out the window and coming second I would say is highly improbable.

If we see an attitude tomorrow night where it appears we are happy enough to play out the game settling for a draw, then we have not come on at all from the days of Trap's predecessors. Would prefer see us go all out for the win and lose, than settle for a draw and get one point.

If we pick up a point tomorrow night it will be least consequential point we've gained in any qualification campaign.

[backstothewall]

Difficult to respect a manager who ignores someone for 3 years then sticks him right into the starting lineup for a competitive game. Reeks of Stan with Carsley, Miller and Reid.

Only until you have a look at our world ranking. Anyone know what Jonathan Douglas is doing with himself these days? No? Exactly!

[SwanVsDalton]

Difficult to respect a manager who ignores someone for 3 years then sticks him right into the starting lineup for a competitive game. Reeks of Stan with Carsley, Miller and Reid.

What player?

[tommy_c12000]

In fairness you referenced Kilbane's experience for giving him the nod, and that's a factor for Kelly too. I think he's a steadier option and just as logical in some respects.

Besides referencing Premiership starts isn't very logical - a lot of guff footballers get regular games in the Prem. ;)

If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.

At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.

If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.

[Stuttgart88]

There was a remark from someoe (can't recall who) which indicated that the team is not thinking like that. This is a must win game and I think they recognise that. I'll take a point if, and only if, that's all we can get.

Murf, who are you referring to - O'Dea or Kelly? There's good reason why neither has featured in the last 2 years:

O'Shea - Dunne - St. Ledger....

[tommy_c12000]

How do I multi quote from different subscribers? Feels like I'm taking on the whole establishment of the FAI here. Good to see that they are firmly behind their man . . . for the time being

[Stuttgart88]

If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.

At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.

If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.tommy, ask the nurse for a pill.

The point is that Foley has been given his chances and hasn't taken them, and that was when we had Dunne in the team, our best defender. Foley made a howler in that competitive game you're talking about. It's a close call but Kelly has it in him to do the job. It's a while back I know, but I thought he was really good against Brazil in London. I'd be happy enough with either but think Kelly is marginally the better call. Whatever about experience, I think Kelly has more of a leader in him and we're short of that.

[Stuttgart88]

How do I multi quote from different subscribers? Feels like I'm taking on the whole establishment of the FAI here. Good to see that they are firmly behind their man . . . for the time beingClick the multi quote button alongside every post you want to cite, then press quote on the last post and then edit accordingly. I finally figured it ouit after about 8,000 posts.

Yours,

J. Delaney.

[Bottle of Tonic]

Sorry Tommy C im gonna have to weigh in behind the other lads here and endorse the Kelly selection ahead of Foley. The basis of your preferred selection seems to be 'number of games started in league last year'. International football is a totally different animal from club football. Even more restrictive being a nation with a limited quality pick like us. It simply does not translate 'logically' from 'best statistically performing 11 in league' to 'first 11 for national side'. Statistically doesn't even come in to it actually. International game is a different animal altogether and for a jittery away tie in a former yugoslavic state, Kelly, the wiser more experienced head is the sensible pick.

Your Long/Cox rant is way out of proportion too. Most here reckon Long is the better player, at least potentially, but there is not enough in it between them, coupled with the fact that Long is a fantastic game changing option off the bench(ditto Fahey behind Andrews), to make such a whinge over the whole thing.

Tis a solid team. We play shoite football, but reasonably effective, we should be fine.

Please!

[geysir]

Tommy needs about 8 sleeping pills just to feel slightly tranquil.

[SwanVsDalton]

If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.

At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.

If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.

I couldn't be bothered going looking for it but there was a right back debate a while ago (before the last Macedonia game I believe) but I listed their relative games - trust me when I say Kelly has played in far more competitive Irish internationals than that (and certainly far more than Foley, even when both have been in squads).

Anyway we're hardly FAI just because we can see the logic in selecting him! There's several reasons why selecting Kelly COULD be seen as justified. Foley didn't play well in the last game, with a return game there are very specific reasons (height, experience) why Kelly could be selected in front of him. You talk about his caps as if his experience isn't worthwhile - guys been playing Prem football on and off for about eight seasons. He's a fine player and I'm sure he won't let us down.

Foley played a lot this year but even towards the end of the season there was a period he wasn't first choice right back for Wolves. He reclaimed it, in fairness, but it just goes to show these things are variable and the calls that are made a lot tighter than you suggest. Foley is by no means a slam dunk selection, albeit I think him or Coleman will be our number one right back in the future. But for now Kelly could very well be the right man for this game, especially after the run-around Foley got last time.

[geysir]

I was all braced up preparing for 90 minutes with McShane at RB, now a steamroller couldn't rattle me.

[Stuttgart88]

I could do withh tommy's sleeping pills. And his nurse.

[tommy_c12000]

I could do withh tommy's sleeping pills. And his nurse.

If u had seen my nurse u'd retract that last statement. . . .

[French Toasht]

Your Long/Cox rant is way out of proportion too. Most here reckon Long is the better player, at least potentially, but there is not enough in it between them, coupled with the fact that Long is a fantastic game changing option off the bench(ditto Fahey behind Andrews), to make such a whinge over the whole thing.

I think 22 goals more this season is a significant enough difference to seperate the two. Don't you?

This whole Cox situation reminds me of how Irish fans were lauding McShane as the next Paul McGrath after he made an impressive debut. Cox has no track record whereby Long does. Why take a chance like this in such a crucial qualifier?

Even tactically this makes no sense. Cox is the very same type player as Robbie Keane, so why wouldn't we play Long, a player who plays off the shoulder of the last defender and plays further forward. Particularly when our central midfield pairing offer us nothing creatively, it astounds me why we would not play Long.

As for your game changing notion, I disagree. You start with your strongest 11 available and go for the jugular. Not hold back and throw on your best players at a later stage in the game.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think 22 goals more this season is a significant enough difference to seperate the two. Don't you?

This whole Cox situation reminds me of how Irish fans were lauding McShane as the next Paul McGrath after he made an impressive debut. Cox has no track record whereby Long does. Why take a chance like this in such a crucial qualifier?

Even tactically this makes no sense. Cox is the very same type player as Robbie Keane, so why wouldn't we play Long, a player who plays off the shoulder of the last defender and plays further forward. Particularly when our central midfield pairing offer us nothing creatively, it astounds me why we would not play Long.

As for your game changing notion, I disagree. You start with your strongest 11 available and go for the jugular. Not hold back and throw on your best players at a later stage in the game.

I actually agree with the last point, but Cox will play as an outlet to feet linking midfield and attack I believe. However it's all moot until we see what happens. I trust the manager has his reasons.

Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.

[tommy_c12000]

Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.

I agree, we'll put it down to bad luck instead

[SwanVsDalton]

I agree, we'll put it down to bad luck instead

Jees you are testy! Irish fans arn't just some amorphous blob who blindly follow (well usually!). There's a lot of different views here. I haven't thought we've been particularly lucky or unlucky since Paris, and I wouldn't take anyone seriously who just casually put down every bad result to bad luck.

Likewise though, it's likely there'll be more than a few who'll put a positive result tomorrow down to fortune rather than credit team or manager...

I can't help but feeling we're blowing our angst load a bit early here - shouldn't we wait until after the game to do this?

[topia]

I actually agree with the last point, but Cox will play as an outlet to feet linking midfield and attack I believe. However it's all moot until we see what happens. I trust the manager has his reasons.

Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.

Surely thats exactly what Keane will be doing? I assume that means we will not hoof the ball once tomorrow?

[SwanVsDalton]

Surely thats exactly what Keane will be doing? I assume that means we will not hoof the ball once tomorrow?

Keane used to drift deep, but he does it far less under Trap. He tends to pressure the first defender, chase backpasses and play off the last man, albeit while receiving the ball to feet and trying to play one-two's. I think Cox will play a bit deeper throughout. Speculation, but that's my guess.

EDIT - Oh yeah and of course we'll hoof the ball, we're Ireland. I'm not saying we'll radically change our game, but the selection of Cox undoubtedly looks like a slight change of approach since we can't reach for the direct ball into channels/over the top for a Doyle/Long. Ain't Cox's game from what I've seen.

[Bottle of Tonic]

Ya I worded it awkwardly alright, but in the context of this particular game, bearing in mind the 2 warm up games vs NI and Scotch and the partnership with Keane, Longs possible fatigue, mental or otherwise, Longs last game vs Macedonia, the apparent lack of partnership/intuition between Keane and Long....... I'd say there's not a HUGE amount between them for this particular game and I can see why Trap has selected Cox, even though(!) I would have preferred to see Long myself!

As regards the game changing subs. Its a complex one, but the way we play under Trap(generally fairly ****e) and the way we control midfield(we dont) I think its useful to have the likes of Long and Fahey on the bench to call on if we need to change it up a bit 20mins to go. Bearing in mind that we are quite good at the moment at playing shoite but still snaking results! Having decent men on the bench gives us opportunity to change it if needs be. Having Andrews, Cox, Lawrence et al coming off the bench to salvage a draw or sneak a win doesn't inspire much confidence.

[Noelys Guitar]

We'll all know by this time tomorrow( 10.32 Irish) whether Trap's choice of Cox over Long has payed off. My own feeling on this is that Long had a slight mediocre spell for Reading before the Cardiff play-off game. Played well against Cardiff but looked tired against Swansea. He could well be carrying a slight knock or it could be genuine tiredness. Cox on the other hand had a much shorter season. Played a big part in West Brom's revival and played at a higher level than Long. Plus two good games against NI and Scotland. Hopefully he pays off Trap's trust in him tomorrow night and bags a couple of goals or helps Robbie bag a couple or whoever. The serious stuff starts in 21 hours and 50 mins! COME ON IRELAND!

[tetsujin1979]

Bearing in mind that we are quite good at the moment at playing shoite but still snaking results!I hate seeing phrases like this, United play badly and win and it's the sign of Champions, Ireland play shoite and get a result and it's because of dumb luck and we'll be found out and Trapattoni is useless and his starting XI is a joke and will someone for the love of God replace Kevin Kilbane and every single goal Robbie Keane scores should be discounted because the opposition were terrible and there was another player in a better position and we should appoint an Irish manager because he would understand the mentality of the players and so on ad nauseum

[Murfinator]

Have listened to various pundits on the radio this evening (Eoin Hand, Mark Kinsella and Richard Sadlier) say a draw would be a great result. Really? A great result? If we draw tomorrow night, winning the group is out the window and coming second I would say is highly improbable.


Nonsense. A draw would be a disaster for our qualification hopes, we have to win.

[Noelys Guitar]

We've got to go for the win and the team and subs are good enough to get the three points. I expect the match to be a lot like the Armenia away game with possibly a similiar scoreline. This is not Russia away here. We are playing a team that has no chance of qualifying. It won't be easy by any means but we are good enough to win this game.

[backstothewall]

I think 22 goals more this season is a significant enough difference to seperate the two. Don't you?

This whole Cox situation reminds me of how Irish fans were lauding McShane as the next Paul McGrath after he made an impressive debut. Cox has no track record whereby Long does. Why take a chance like this in such a crucial qualifier?

Even tactically this makes no sense. Cox is the very same type player as Robbie Keane, so why wouldn't we play Long, a player who plays off the shoulder of the last defender and plays further forward. Particularly when our central midfield pairing offer us nothing creatively, it astounds me why we would not play Long.


There is of course an argument that goals in the English Second Division are easy compared to the EPL. Personally I would probably have gone with Long, but its a matter of opinion given the context of the last 2 weeks.

Jaysus. 2 Robbie Keanes. ****ing Disaster!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Nonsense. A draw would be a disaster for our qualification hopes, we have to win.

It isn't, as unless Russia do poorly in their remaining games, they're in the box seat anyway. And we're in the feck-offs. Great.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Only until you have a look at our world ranking. Anyone know what Jonathan Douglas is doing with himself these days? No? Exactly!

I give up. Is he still at Swindon?
Incidentally, someone told me he was their best player last season. Though that's not saying much.

[theworm2345]

I give up. Is he still at Swindon?
Incidentally, someone told me he was their best player last season. Though that's not saying much.
He is still there and I was talking to a Swindon fan and they said he was planning on sticking with them in League Two. Apparently Michael Timlin is a different story though.

[Stuttgart88]

Richard Sadlier...a draw would be a great result. How can he square that with all the rubbish he comes out with about Trap? Or is he saying we are so crap, we'd be doing well to get a draw?

[Supreme feet]

I hate seeing phrases like this, United play badly and win and it's the sign of Champions, Ireland play shoite and get a result and it's because of dumb luck and we'll be found out and Trapattoni is useless and his starting XI is a joke and will someone for the love of God replace Kevin Kilbane and every single goal Robbie Keane scores should be discounted because the opposition were terrible and there was another player in a better position and we should appoint an Irish manager because he would understand the mentality of the players and so on ad nauseum

Excellent. Well said tets.

Don't know what to do with myself. Game kicks off at 4:30 am Korean time. Don't know if or when I should try to sleep!

[Stuttgart88]

It was a great post by Tets and there are naysayers like that, but in fairness BoT is saying we are quite good, but not playing good football. I think that's credit to everyone involved. I thought we were sh1te in the second half against Scotland and we have been in other games we have won (30-40 mins against Macedonia), and lost (Norway - after 20 mins to the end) too. We play well in spells, but only in spells. I think this team has it in them to play well for longer than that. Moral courage...