Macedonia V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 4th June 2011 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[DannyInvincible]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/macedonians-sweat-on-star-of-their-own-156635.html

Popov missing out would be a real blessing.

Bogatinov is very inexperienced with only three senior international caps to his name although his club, Karpaty Lviv, did finish fifth in the Ukrainian Premier League this season. What the standard is like beyond Dynamo Kiev and Shakhtar Donetsk, though, I couldn't really say. I'd imagine there's quite a gulf. Also, he doesn't appear to actually be their first-team goalkeeper. From what I can make out, he played just 8 games for Karpaty this season and conceded 11 goals, also picking up a yellow card along the way (http://fckarpaty.lviv.ua/ua/player_details/203/).

Highlights reel of him here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHN3TpTHcZ4

I can't imagine that either of the goalkeepers will be up to much at this level given Nuredinoski's performance in Dublin, so I'm not overly concerned who lines out in goals for them.

Interestingly, I see Shelbourne knocked Karpaty out of the qualifying round of the Cup Winners' Cup in 1993. They beat them 3-2 on aggregate before going out to Panathanaikos in the first round. For anyone interested, MNS have some footage of the second leg of the Karpaty game in Dublin on the RTÉ website available to watch here: http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2432811.smil

[magicman]

So if Keane doesn't make it and its Long and Cox up front..... Who do we have in reserve? Ward? That it?

[Supreme feet]

Keogh too.

[Duggie]

it looks like robbie will be fit, fingers crossed.

[DannyInvincible]

No real update on Robbie's groin strain, but Tardelli has confirmed that Cox is a favoured starter over Long right now (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0603/ireland_keaner.html). Perhaps fitness and mentality considerations over form have come into play given Long's play-off disappointment last Monday. Whether that will change depending on how Long does in training today remains to be seen.


At training yesterday, Long didn't appear to be fit. But today he has shown that he is fit.

At this time, we have many choices and there are possibilities there to make decisions.

There is still a bit of a stress after Shane Long playing such a big match only on Monday. I don't know which one of them may play because we also have this problem with Robbie Keane.

But it is fair to say that Simon Cox is ahead of Shane Long at this moment in time

[punkrocket]

I hear that Seanie Short might be on for a late call up.

[BonnieShels]

I think there has been a hysterical over reaction to the potential omission if Long.

We all saw how Cox and Keane linked up during the last 2 games and whilst the opposition were weak they were weaker than us in any case whatever team was put out and Scotland are better than Macedonia.

If its not working out we can bring Long on. It's not as if he's not in the squad

We all need to calm down cos as it is my nerves are shot.

[shakermaker1982]

Is there dodgy gk from the first game gonna start tomorrow? Andrews, Whelan, Hunt and McGeady need to shoot from 25 yards at every chance.

[tommy_c12000]

I think there has been a hysterical over reaction to the potential omission if Long.

We all saw how Cox and Keane linked up during the last 2 games and whilst the opposition were weak they were weaker than us in any case whatever team was put out and Scotland are better than Macedonia.

If its not working out we can bring Long on. It's not as if he's not in the squad

We all need to calm down cos as it is my nerves are shot.

I certainly don't think it's a hysterical over reaction. We have a player who is linked to several top flight clubs, made 47 appearances for Reading this season and has scored 23 league goals. He is in the form of his life at the moment and looked sharp and extremely fit throughout the playoffs. Furthermore he has international experience with 19 international caps. Temper all these factors with a guy who is a bit part player with West Brom, starting 8 times for them and scoring only one goal and more importantly has ZERO international experience. The basis for propelling him up the order ahead of Long is his showing against a 3rd choice NI team and a reserve Scottish defence. When you take all these things into consideration I think people's "hysterical over reaction" is vindicated. Cox is a reasonable option, he has impressed me with WB this season, but you cannot read too much into his performaces against what were reserve international teams. He may do a job against Macedonia but the bottom line at this juncture, it is absolutely folly to start him in front of Long this saturday. There is no argument about that

[Duggie]

I certainly don't think it's a hysterical over reaction. We have a player who is linked to several top flight clubs, made 47 appearances for Reading this season and has scored 23 league goals. He is in the form of his life at the moment and looked sharp and extremely fit throughout the playoffs. Furthermore he has international experience with 19 international caps. Temper all these factors with a guy who is a bit part player with West Brom, starting 8 times for them and scoring only one goal and more importantly has ZERO international experience. The basis for propelling him up the order ahead of Long is his showing against a 3rd choice NI team and a reserve Scottish defence. When you take all these things into consideration I think people's "hysterical over reaction" is vindicated. Cox is a reasonable option, he has impressed me with WB this season, but you cannot read too much into his performaces against what were reserve international teams. He may do a job against Macedonia but the bottom line at this juncture, it is absolutely folly to start him in front of Long this saturday. There is no argument about that

look this is how i see it, if long was there for the 2 weeks he would be starting. Hes just unfortunate he was delayed in England with the play-offs. Id prefer Long to start but im not to annoyed with the decision. I can see why trap has made it, hes had keane and cox working together for 2 weeks and he wants to persist with them for this game. He hasnt forgotten about long. i hope it work out for all our sake.

[elroy]

Bank holiday wkd, sun splitting the rocks and a massive Ireland game on. Doesnt get better than this. Nerves starting to really kick in now, its a long wait till half 8 tomorrow night. Pray to god we win. Very jealous of the lads heading over to Macedonia now, enjoy it and bring back the three points. Im liking the weather report of chance of storms there tomorrow, 17 degress tomorrow night will still be more than what our lads are normally used to.

Hope the same keeper from the home game starts, Edin Nuredinoski. If so plenty of long shots from whelan, andrews, hunt and mcgeady are the order of the day. Actually when you list our midfield like that, they may not be many things, but all four capable of a damn good strike.

[elroy]

look this is how i see it, if long was there for the 2 weeks he would be starting. Hes just unfortunate he was delayed in England with the play-offs. Id prefer Long to start but im not to annoyed with the decision. I can see why trap has made it, hes had keane and cox working together for 2 weeks and he wants to persist with them for this game. He hasnt forgotten about long. i hope it work out for all our sake.

Agreed but I think there is an element of this lad has just come into the squad and he looks like he is going to start a big game for us. As you said probably wouldnt happen if Long was around the full 2 weeks or if Doyle or Walters were fit. I probably wouldnt be all that impressed if I was Keogh but then again think most of us would pick Cox over Keogh.

[tommy_c12000]

look this is how i see it, if long was there for the 2 weeks he would be starting. Hes just unfortunate he was delayed in England with the play-offs. Id prefer Long to start but im not to annoyed with the decision. I can see why trap has made it, hes had keane and cox working together for 2 weeks and he wants to persist with them for this game. He hasnt forgotten about long. i hope it work out for all our sake.

Trap doesn't bother his backside going to games preferring instead to mull through "hours of DVD's" (ya right). He clearly doesn't know our players (evidenced further by Ian Harte last wk). So am I right in saying the best chance you have of getting on the team is to train ur ****** off for the wk leading up to it as this is the only exposure Trap will have to the player. What a load of ****. Poor Shane was trying to single handedly get his club into the prem legaue and cudnt join up later for obvious reasons and this is how he is rewarded. Cox may well do well on sat nite cause lets face it we're not playing Brazil but it is a huge unnessary gamble, bottom line Long should be starting period. And one more thing, people are trying to make the argument that Cox is stronger than Long and provides a better balance, that too is bo****. Long has turned into one of the most accomplished target men in the Championship this past year and will win 9/10 balls that are pumped in the air to him.

Trap is taking us for some ride and bigger the fools we are to go along with it. E2m a yr for this rubbish (oh apologies forgot about the paycut the martyr took last yr. . . ). The sooner his contract runs out the better for the future of Irish football

[OwlsFan]

If that's his considered judgement from 50 years at the top in the game, so be it. Your judgement is based on....?

A surprise decision if that's what it is. Perhaps Long is deflated and out of sorts following Reading's defeat. We are not there to see.

[SwanVsDalton]

Trap doesn't bother his backside going to games preferring instead to mull through "hours of DVD's" (ya right). He clearly doesn't know our players (evidenced further by Ian Harte last wk).

It was fairly, in my view, pointed out by Trap that he can get just as much, if not more, from watching 10 players via DVD than attending a live match and possibly only seeing one player for ten minutes. Plus the guy has enough scouts and Tardelli who he trusts to get him extra info. I think the lazy Trap argument is a total fallacy to be honest. Besides at this stage he has capped loads of players - hardly fits in with a view of someone who just takes a look at someone in training.

I don't agree with the selection of Cox but I don't think it'll be crucial to the result. Moreover it likely is indicative of a change in approach - presumably Cox will lie slightly deeper, trouble the Macedonian DM's and link midfield and attack. He'll offer Andrews and Whelan a central attacking ball to feet, when they're likely to be outnumbered by Macedonians. By picking Kelly, Trap has already demonstrated he has specific players in mind for how to take on the Macedonians. How it'll pan out, I'm not sure, but I'm willing to see how it goes before making any real judgement.

[Stuttgart88]

Agree totally with SvD, and while I admire tommy_c's concern I can't believe he has selectively ignored Tardelli's quote from ages back about Harte. It was posted here and I'm sure he saw it.

The "they didn't know he was Irish" is straight out of The Indo's manual on how to undermine the team and its management. Harte was skinned alive twice by Swansea last weekend.

I'd pick Long myself but if picking Cox is a sign we're going to keep it on the deck rather than hoof it long, then that's OK by me.

[BonnieShels]

I certainly don't think it's a hysterical over reaction. We have a player who is linked to several top flight clubs, made 47 appearances for Reading this season and has scored 23 league goals. He is in the form of his life at the moment and looked sharp and extremely fit throughout the playoffs. Furthermore he has international experience with 19 international caps. Temper all these factors with a guy who is a bit part player with West Brom, starting 8 times for them and scoring only one goal and more importantly has ZERO international experience. The basis for propelling him up the order ahead of Long is his showing against a 3rd choice NI team and a reserve Scottish defence. When you take all these things into consideration I think people's "hysterical over reaction" is vindicated. Cox is a reasonable option, he has impressed me with WB this season, but you cannot read too much into his performaces against what were reserve international teams. He may do a job against Macedonia but the bottom line at this juncture, it is absolutely folly to start him in front of Long this saturday. There is no argument about that


You can't argue with the logic. And I agree with you but the point us is that the meejah and some in here have likened cox's potential inclusion as if trap had cast long out of the squad.

Sure has the squad even been officially announced?

[tommy_c12000]

If that's his considered judgement from 50 years at the top in the game, so be it. Your judgement is based on....?

A surprise decision if that's what it is. Perhaps Long is deflated and out of sorts following Reading's defeat. We are not there to see.

My judgement is based on the facts as I see them:
1. Long: 47 championship starts - 23 goals. Has played exceptionally well in the 9 or 10 games that I've watched him in this season
2. Cox: 8 premiership starts (a mere 772mins of football this season) - 1 goal. From what I've seen of him this season he is a useful player but not in the same league as Long.
3. And the fact that I am 46 years Trap's junior which means I have far fewer senile plaques clouding my judgement. Trap's last trophy of note was 14 years ago (German title)

[tetsujin1979]

Cox's inclusion isn't that surprising to me, Keane and Long are similar type of players, and when Cox was announced as joining the squad I thought he was joining the list of backups to Doyle - Best, Walters, Folan - all of whom are unavailable, so he's starting in the target man role. If any or all of those players were in the squad, I doubt he would be starting.
Long is in the squad as backup to Robbie Keane, along with (again IMO) Stokes (if he were available) and possibly Noel Hunt.

[tommy_c12000]

Agree totally with SvD, and while I admire tommy_c's concern I can't believe he has selectively ignored Tardelli's quote from ages back about Harte. It was posted here and I'm sure he saw it.

The "they didn't know he was Irish" is straight out of The Indo's manual on how to undermine the team and its management. Harte was skinned alive twice by Swansea last weekend.

I'd pick Long myself but if picking Cox is a sign we're going to keep it on the deck rather than hoof it long, then that's OK by me.

Apologies missed the Tardelli quote. Have been in hospital for last few days but back now with renewed vigour as you can see! Is there a link to it here? Scrolled through prevous pages there and cudnt find it

[shakermaker1982]

I think the Trap was pleased with how well Cox and Keane linked up in the previous two games and believes the partnership is a better one than Keane/Long. It's not that surprising to be honest. I mentioned that Cox could force his way into the starting 11 in the Ireland-Scotland preview topic and there is nothing wrong with picking players on form. Cox has played well in both internationals, is fresh and offers something different.

If the Trap picked Lawrence over McGeady then yeah that would be a major call and I'd expect the forum to be going crazy but Cox over Long isn't a huge issue and isn't going to cost us the game. I like Long as a player and when he replaces Robbie or Cox from the bench tomorrow he'll be dangerous.

[DannyInvincible]

Is there dodgy gk from the first game gonna start tomorrow? Andrews, Whelan, Hunt and McGeady need to shoot from 25 yards at every chance.

That's Edin Nuridinoski. There's talk of him being dropped for Martin Bogatinov, although Bogatinov is very inexperienced at international level and doesn't appear to have been a regular with his club in Ukraine last season, from what I can make out anyway. Both are probably as much a liability as the other.

[BonnieShels]

Bank holiday wkd, sun splitting the rocks and a massive Ireland game on. Doesnt get better than this. Nerves starting to really kick in now, its a long wait till half 8 tomorrow night. Pray to god we win. Very jealous of the lads heading over to Macedonia now, enjoy it and bring back the three points. Im liking the weather report of chance of storms there tomorrow, 17 degress tomorrow night will still be more than what our lads are normally used to.

Get in there lad! Nyiaow!

[DannyInvincible]

If that's his considered judgement from 50 years at the top in the game, so be it. Your judgement is based on....?

A surprise decision if that's what it is. Perhaps Long is deflated and out of sorts following Reading's defeat. We are not there to see.

I think that is what Tardelli appeared to be suggesting when he said that Cox was the fore-runner to start right now. However, he appeared to leave open the possibility of Long proving he'd be worth a starting place between now and kick-off. Tardelli also mentioned that Long was unfit - probably fatigued - when he trained on Wednesday, although he was fine yesterday, whereas Cox, in contrast, is presumably considered fresh and upbeat in both body and mind.

[French Toasht]

Love how Edin Nuredinoski has become a household name in Ireland. Forget the fans, he's our twelfth man!!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except this game probably won't be about our strikers, but our rather more obvious deficiencies....

[Yard of Pace]

Love how Edin Nuredinoski has become a household name in Ireland. Forget the fans, he's our twelfth man!!

These kind of posts will jinx this 100%! He'll end up performing like Lev Yashin. Or even *shudder* Dudu Awat.

Agree completely with Tets etc. above on the Cox and Long issue. Also, Cox's lack of games could work in his favour, he should just be revving nicely around about now having only really started to play towards the end of the season. Long on the other hand is sure to be almost completely drained but will still be a superb guy to bring off the bench.

[French Toasht]

What annoys me about the Cox inclusion over Long is that it highlights the fact that we are altering our starting 11 to counteract THEIR tactics. Our team of players are far superior than theirs and surely we should be choosing our strongest 11 available (which most definately includes Long) and letting them choose THEIR tactics on the basis of our starting 11.

Also the notion that Long won't get any joy against their big, physical defenders is a fallacy. Long has just played a full season in the Championship, a league where tall physical dogged defences are the norm and has scored 23 goals.

[Stuttgart88]

Apologies missed the Tardelli quote. Have been in hospital for last few days but back now with renewed vigour as you can see! Is there a link to it here? Scrolled through prevous pages there and cudnt find itIt was Geysir who posted it, not sure exactly where it is myself (Ian Harte thread?). Basically Tradelli said ages back that we have younger, fresher options than Harte. This must have been when Cunningham and Clark were fit.

Hope the recovery goes well.

Come on YBIG.

[OwlsFan]

My judgement is based on the facts as I see them:
1. Long: 47 championship starts - 23 goals. Has played exceptionally well in the 9 or 10 games that I've watched him in this season
2. Cox: 8 premiership starts (a mere 772mins of football this season) - 1 goal. From what I've seen of him this season he is a useful player but not in the same league as Long.
3. And the fact that I am 46 years Trap's junior which means I have far fewer senile plaques clouding my judgement. Trap's last trophy of note was 14 years ago (German title)

So you're an ageist. Fergie has done ok depite his advancing years.

I am sure Trap has the same information you have. However, unlike you, he can see both players in training in front of him. The fact that Long has had 47 Championship starts and is just coming off the back of a devastating play off defeat at Wembley compared to a fresh and eager player may be the key here. I don't know the reason but I am sure there is one.

If you were a bit older, you mightn't have fallen for the anti-Trap propaganda put out about Harte but that comes with old age when you're able to discern bullsh*t from truth.

[Stuttgart88]

We should have our own 40+ section on this forum, with people who remember when Bagatelle competed with Brendan Shine, the Rats and Red Hurley for no. 1, and when Declan Burns was a World Superstar. Though wasn't it Tommy who said earlier this week he was 44?

[DannyInvincible]

If you were a bit older, you mightn't have fallen for the anti-Trap propaganda put out about Harte but that comes with old age when you're able to discern bullsh*t from truth.

I've always liked this quote: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."

[Sullivinho]

Bank holiday wkd, sun splitting the rocks and a massive Ireland game on. Doesnt get better than this.

'Tis a heck of a drug. :pill:


Agreed but I think there is an element of this lad has just come into the squad and he looks like he is going to start a big game for us.

It reminds me of the Paul Green experiment (quality band name there btw). 'Found' by TPTB, given a few friendly opportunities (in which he was relatively impressive) and then pitched into a crucial away qualifier. I hope Simon has more of an impact on his competitive debut though, given Paul had a bit of a shocker in Armenia.

[Stuttgart88]

Any word from the assembled hacks and the Twitter grapevine?

Frickin' hell. I've an exam in 90 minutes and all I can think of is injury or team updates. I wish there was a hibernation pill I could take in international match week. Real life is insignificant and rubbish.

[SwanVsDalton]

That reminds me of when I was sitting an AS maths exam just when Ireland were playing Germany in WC 2002. Ended up with a 'U'. I'm sure you'll fare better though Stutts, I'm dreadful at maths.

[tommy_c12000]

If you were a bit older, you mightn't have fallen for the anti-Trap propaganda put out about Harte but that comes with old age when you're able to discern bullsh*t from truth.

I was merely using Harte as one of a myriad of examples of Trap's inept knowledge of the Irish set up over the years. (if there is evidence that Trap knew who he was then I apologise probably lost in translation again, yawn!). His man managment skills have been appalling at times I don't think anyone can argue with that. I certainly haven't fallen for any anti-Trap propaganda. I have formed my own opinion on him over the years (quickly it has to be be said) and it is a very low one. Afterall, this is a forum which I hope users are still able to express their own views unless a degree of censorship has been imposed unbeknownst to me. (if this is the case I profusely apologise and retract all my comments)

I will be supporting Ireland wholeheartedly tomorrow night as I always do. All I want for my country is that the best available 11 goes out and with Cox in the team no one in the right mindframe can attempt to convince me that this is the case. Still though I hope for an Irish victory and Irish qualification to the Euros. Cox is a reasonable player and should do a job for us regardless, not as effective a job as Long would do, but hey its the gaffers decision.

Perhaps you are right, oh great one, the ability to discern bullsh*t from truth only comes with old age. But I'm afraid a large volume of the country's top geriatricians would beg to differ. Look forward to reading anything you have supporting this interesting hypothesis

[tommy_c12000]

Any word from the assembled hacks and the Twitter grapevine?

Frickin' hell. I've an exam in 90 minutes and all I can think of is injury or team updates. I wish there was a hibernation pill I could take in international match week. Real life is insignificant and rubbish.

Just don't think of the phrase Robbie is Keane on Long Cox Hunt and you should be fine. Always remember as you walk through the door into an exam hall that you know an awful lot more than you think you do right at that moment. Get in there and enjoy it. Soak up the atmosphere and revel in it! That's what life is all about! Knock 'em dead big goy!

[French Toasht]

That reminds me of when I was sitting an AS maths exam just when Ireland were playing Germany in WC 2002. Ended up with a 'U'. I'm sure you'll fare better though Stutts, I'm dreadful at maths.

Was in the same boat. Junior Cert English Paper II robbed me of one of the greatest Irish moments in football. Sitting in the exam hall I thought we had won due to all the car horns that had been beeping the whole time during the exam and kids outside singing "We're all part if Jackies army". Was quite disappointed actually when I came out to hear we had only drawn the game.

[geysir]

It was Geysir who posted it, not sure exactly where it is myself (Ian Harte thread?). Basically Tradelli said ages back that we have younger, fresher options than Harte. This must have been when Cunningham and Clark were fit.

At least I posted it in the Trapattoni appointed Ireland coach thread - last page
Tardelli
"Ian Harte is a good player, he's got good quality, but we have young players with the same qualities. We look for the future."

[Supreme feet]

I've always liked this quote: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."

I do like that quote too, but maybe youth brings out a bit more 'passionate intensity', while experience brings perspective. I've long been an optimist when it comes to this team, and at 27, I'm just as idealistic as ever... but when I was younger I would rage and moan about the fact that Mick McCarthy was leaving out 'great young Premiership players' like McPhail, Gavin and Alan Quinn for 'journeymen' like Holland, Breen and Kilbane. When I was 15-16, I thought McCarthy was a short-sighted buffoon whose stubbornness and loyalty to certain players made him inadequate for the job. Being proved completely wrong has made me a lot more mellow! :) I'm not going to call for Italian heads on pikes just because he isn't picking a possibly knackered and dispirited Long.

It must be said that Long's partnership with Keane simply didn't work against Slovakia or when he came on against Macedonia. It reminds me of the Connolly-Keane partnership, when Morrison - though technically an inferior footballer and finisher to Connolly - was a better fit beside Keane because of his style of play and the positions they both took up.

[DannyInvincible]

Was in the same boat. Junior Cert English Paper II robbed me of one of the greatest Irish moments in football. Sitting in the exam hall I thought we had won due to all the car horns that had been beeping the whole time during the exam and kids outside singing "We're all part if Jackies army". Was quite disappointed actually when I came out to hear we had only drawn the game.

I was doing a GCSE exam during the Saudi Arabia game and was similarly focused on the horns outside. I can't remember what subject it was right now, but I do recall a total of 137 beeps.

[DannyInvincible]

Any update on Robbie today then? Surely the team will have already been going through their paces in Skopje?

[EAFC_rdfl]

I was doing a GCSE exam during the Saudi Arabia game and was similarly focused on the horns outside. I can't remember what subject it was right now, but I do recall a total of 137 beeps.
I got absolutely bladdered after that game, god-damned midday kick-offs! good times though, good times

[Duggie]

Any update on Robbie today then? Surely the team will have already been going through their paces in Skopje?

they prob wont train till late in the evening shade?? i dont see any word yet....

[BonnieShels]

I was only gone 18 so hasn't discovered the sauce yet. What a tournament in the end.
Still to this day I can remember the joy of duffers celebration or the impossibility of robbies goal against Germany.

Here's to 2012.

[Duggie]

I was only gone 18 so hasn't discovered the sauce yet. What a tournament in the end.
Still to this day I can remember the joy of duffers celebration or the impossibility of robbies goal against Germany.

Here's to 2012.

amen, i went bananas when robbie scores in 2002, so did everyone around me..BANANAS!

[OwlsFan]

The wife had just put in a new carpet and the lads were all in the front room drinking in front of the tv. When Robbie scored at least 3 pints went over the new carpet! She still allows them back.


I've always liked this quote: "Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."

I prefer the youth accumulate their opinions at an age when their understanding is at its weakest.

[AlaskaFox]

Was watching the Germany game in my sitting room with the family. My dad was off work on lunch, but was meant to go back about fifteen minutes from the end. He sticks around til the 90th minute and says "I have to go, I can't wait, we're not going to score" and then heads out the door. As he opens the front door to go out, he hears shouts coming from all the houses in the estate, so comes back in to see the replay.

[IsMiseSean]

That reminds me of when I was sitting an AS maths exam just when Ireland were playing Germany in WC 2002. Ended up with a 'U'. I'm sure you'll fare better though Stutts, I'm dreadful at maths.

Same as, Leaving Cert English paper 2 I recall. I missed Robbie's equaliser, what was Hamlet done for me since I ask??

[French Toasht]

Ten minutes ago from Dan McDonnell on twitter:

"Robbie still a doubt, has to prove he is ok at training this evening"