Bombs sent to Neil Lennon, Paul McBride and Trish Godman

[DannyInvincible]

I'm merely pointing out that sectarian/racist chanting is not exclusive to Rangers.

Will FARE be lodging an official complaint about last night's chanting from Celtic fans, do you think?

If it's ok to chant about Republican terrorists, is it not ok to chant about Loyalist terrorists?

If it's ok to chant about Brits going home, is it not ok to chant about Irish going home?

If it's ok to call someone an "orange b*st*rd", is it not ok to call someone a "f*n*an b*st*rd"?

Or maybe it's two peas from the same pod, both of which are rotten.

I don't think anyone is denying that such chanting comes from Celtic quarters either, but it does appear to be more of a widespread problem for Rangers. Maybe I'm wrong - I'm closer to a casual observer than a raving Celtic fan - but the reported facts tell a tale. Not only have external, European bodies felt the need to get involved to condemn the chanting coming from certain Rangers fans, even Ally McCoist was firm in his castigation of those engaging in this form of behaviour within the Rangers support, urging the police to arrest culprits on the spot.

The loyalist element in this, or whatever one wants to dub it, does also seem more extreme, I have to say, with those fringe die-hards amongst the Rangers and Hearts support-base not only willing to engage in vitriolic and sectarian song but also go as far to make very serious and criminal physical threats to the lives of others simply because of their cultural background and the club they manage or play for.

I have to admit, I do sense that what might be perceived as a reactive, benign or leftist-revolutionary Irish nationalism associated with Celtic supporters is looked upon with a greater degree of sympathy to many external and international observers - especially those of a leftist bent who'd draw parallels of the Irish situation from Euskadi and Palestine - than what is seen as the cancerous, BNP-style, loyalist British nationalism associated with Rangers elements that is so roundly condemned by virtually all on the political spectrum bar the far right - whether that's a valid approach to analysing things or a propaganda coup for separatist politics is open to debate I suppose - but I think it would be unfair to place both sets of fans into the same pod on the rotten scale, no matter how objectionable those songs coming from elements within the Celtic support are. There is a big difference between words and actions.

[Gather round]

I think it would be unfair to place both sets of fans into the same pod on the rotten scale, no matter how objectionable those songs coming from elements within the Celtic support are. There is a big difference between words and actions

Disagree, I think it would be entirely fair. I grew up in Belfast and have been watching football there and beyond since the 70s. Throughout a large minority of Celtic's support have been quite open in their support for paramilitarism, as well as displaying general antisocial behavior at games and elsewhere. It would be silly to dowmplay this just because one Jambo Ned attacked Lennon or a handful of (presumably) Rangers fans have recently extended themselves into violent criminal threats. Celtic have a serious hooligan problem on a par with Rangers over decades, visible in Scotland and other places where the supports clash (Northern Ireland, basically). What a few left-wing activists in Bilbo or Ramallah think is a separate issue to that, and largely irrelevant: our problem, not theirs.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The level of ignorance in the last post, not to mention highly prejudiced 'disinformation', is staggering.

And factually wrong regarding their other post. But then geography was never their strong point!
;)

[DannyInvincible]

What a few left-wing activists in Bilbo or Ramallah think is a separate issue to that, and largely irrelevant: our problem, not theirs.

Just providing comparable context as to how Celtic fans' "politics" might be viewed externally by way of loose affiliation. See, for example, their public rapport with Sankt Pauli and all that, presumably due to shared political leanings as much as anything. Sankt Pauli fans are unabashedly left-leaning, anti-fascist and anti-racist in outlook. Of course, Sankt Pauli also have elements within their support prone to violent skirmishes, but I would argue that the club and its supporters are generally perceived throughout Europe as a breath of fresh air on the whole and as a positive force in reaction to the neo-Nazism associated with elements within the support of their bitter rivals HSV. Contrast the aforementioned example to Rangers fans' alleged links with groups characterised as being particularly nasty such as the notorious Chelsea Headhunters; their "blues brothers", apparently. Unless my own perceptions are deceiving me, far-right politics generally seem to succumb to much more consternation than leftist ones. It isn't all that important as far as it's mostly perception, but I do think it's interesting and relevant to the discussion when it appears that qualitative judgments are being made as to which strain of "sectarianism" is worse, if you will.

Anyway, quantitatively-speaking, I'm certainly not disagreeing that Celtic has had its fair number of supporters who have been open in their support for republican paramilitarism, but is hooliganism still a widespread problem within Celtic support? Correct me if I'm wrong - as I've said, I'm not a devout follower of goings on within the world of Scottish football - but have Celtic fans recently engaged in anything nearly as ludicrous and destructive as the rampage on which dozens (a couple hundred?) of Rangers fans embarked through the streets around Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester during and in the aftermath of their 2008 UEFA Cup final loss to Zenit? As has been pointed out, Celtic fans are generally and consistently applauded by external observers around Europe as being very well behaved, if not some of Europe's best. (See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/scotland/article3393450.ece or http://celtic-hub.com/?p=677 or http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3189853.stm.) It's not Celtic fans who've been honoured with the rather unfortunate and acrimonious title of "Scotland's Shame".

In recent years, the ratio of sectarian violence motivated by anti-Catholicism in Glasgow has been twice the level of that motivated by anti-Protestantism (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6187826.stm). Whilst it might be argued that this statistic would be expected as it is generally in line with the demographic figures for the area where Protestants outnumber the Catholic population by a correlating ratio (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/28/religion.catholicism), there was, of course, the rather grim stabbing and death of Celtic-fan Mark Scott in October of 1995 as he walked past a pub frequented by Rangers fans on his way home from a Celtic match against Partick Thistle with scarf in pocket and jersey concealed under coat. Funnily enough, the same Donald Findlay QC, who defended Jason Campbell, the man accused and later charged with the murder, in court, would, amongst other controversies throughout his professional career due to his "jovial" anti-Catholicism, to be polite, a few years later be forced to resign from his position as vice-chairman of Rangers after being caught on videotape singing sectarian songs at a party to celebrate Rangers' Scottish Cup final victory over Celtic in 1999. And to complete the sorry chain, it was in light of the publicity this generated that the former girlfriend of Mark Scott felt compelled to launch the Glasgow-based anti-sectarian charity Nil by Mouth.

Rangers, as a club, were arguably steeped in what one might go as far to call institutional sectarianism up until the dawn of the '90s. I'm not so sure the same accusation could be levelled at Celtic who, throughout their history, appear to have been happy to have players represent them no matter what their cultural background. Meanwhile, it was upon Rangers' controversial 1989 signing of Mo Johnston that the Rangers chairman David Murray admitted: "I thought we had the social responsibillity to take away this tarnish from the club." Credit where it's due, but the overall facts would appear to suggest that Rangers have a tougher problem on their hands than Celtic do right now and, dare I say, they've no-one but themselves to blame.

[Charlie Darwin]

Family driven out by Neil Lennon hate mob (http://news.scotsman.com/news/Family-driven-out-by-Neil.6768163.jp)


A TERRIFIED mum today told how she has been forced to flee her home after coming under siege when her address was wrongly linked to the man accused of attacking Celtic manager Neil Lennon.

Jackie Wilson has received more than 2000 threatening phone calls in the last two days along with hate mail after a Celtic fan posted her full Stenhouse address and telephone number online.

Police have confirmed she is not linked to John Wilson who has appeared in court charged with assaulting Lennon during the match at Tynecastle on Wednesday night and remanded in custody.

But Miss Wilson, 35, said the calls and abuse against her and her two daughters was continuing including threats to "rape", "bomb", and "cut your throats".

Bizarrely, pranksters have also sent several unordered pizzas and takeaways to the property.

[...]

[Not Brazil]

Family driven out by Neil Lennon hate mob (http://news.scotsman.com/news/Family-driven-out-by-Neil.6768163.jp)

That's quite a misleading headline - on reading it, it appears the family have been driven out by those with a green and white hooped hue.

[OwlsFan]

Family driven out by Neil Lennon hate mob (http://news.scotsman.com/news/Family-driven-out-by-Neil.6768163.jp)

No thanks from ArdeeBhoy for that one ?

So DannyInvincible, what you are saying is that while both are bad, it's just that Rangers are worse. Fair enough.

[Not Brazil]

than what is seen as the cancerous, BNP-style, loyalist British nationalism associated with Rangers elements that is so roundly condemned by virtually all on the political spectrum bar the far right

Not sure how this would sit with these BNP/far right elements:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/notnl.png/

[DannyInvincible]

So DannyInvincible, what you are saying is that while both are bad, it's just that Rangers are worse. Fair enough.

So it would appear, but I'm open to correction as I can't say it's been something I've strictly been following over the years.


Not sure how this would sit with these BNP/far right elements:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/notnl.png/

You'll never guess the party of which this chap is a member:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XLxL5xIl-m8/S3zOUk8tPqI/AAAAAAAAC68/qY1VLZGY3x4/s320/rsingh.jpg

Who knows? Perhaps Diouf's thoroughly objectionable nature just about endears him.

[geysir]

The video clearly shows him sticking the boot in but as I said, I wouldn't blame him.
There is nothing clear about sticking the boot in from all the videos. You can assume the boot was stuck in.
But sticking the boot in would be quite an impossible act, as there was a steward lying on the ground between Lennon's boot and the prostrate attacker.
In the video the distance is not clear, between Lennon and the prostrate attacker and the fact that there was a steward there as well on the ground is not clear on the video. The many photograph show with virtually an absolute certainty, that Lennon was not close enough and the path from his boot to the attacker was blocked by a steward.

[geysir]

Celtic have a serious hooligan problem on a par with Rangers over decades, visible in Scotland and other places where the supports clash (Northern Ireland, basically).
Compiled evidence by UEFA observers and police reports, prove otherwise.
When is comes to hooliganism as we know it, as in street riots, stadium clashes, 'kerrufles', sectarion song, Rangers have that area cornered. The Rangers's brand of hooliganism doesn't travel well. Whatever Celtic fans get up to in bigoted Scotland, at least they behave themselves when they travel.

All that is peripheral as to why Lennon has become the focus of extreme hate and bigotry right from the time he signed for Celtic.
A trail of hate has followed Lennon around football grounds in Scotland and NI since he signed for Celtic, and not far behind this trail of hate are the predictable claims that somehow Lennon has brought it all on. That somehow his behaviour is responsible, just like the time he tried to smash Shearer's boot in with his head.

MON knew what Lennon was about and the peculiar brand of hate that was directed at him and made a point, time and time again of standing side by side with Lennon.

[OwlsFan]

There is nothing clear about sticking the boot in from all the videos. You can assume the boot was stuck in.
But sticking the boot in would be quite an impossible act, as there was a steward lying on the ground between Lennon's boot and the prostrate attacker.
In the video the distance is not clear, between Lennon and the prostrate attacker and the fact that there was a steward there as well on the ground is not clear on the video. The many photograph show with virtually an absolute certainty, that Lennon was not close enough and the path from his boot to the attacker was blocked by a steward.

Maybe he was kicking the steward being a Hearts' employee!

[ArdeeBhoy]

No thanks from ArdeeBhoy for that one ?
Why would I? A wee bit of a slur there?
(Why would any rational person want to be grateful for those d*ckheads? Whoever they are.)

Or just uninformed, which surprises me.
As you've made pro-Celtic noises in the past?


So DannyInvincible, what you are saying is that while both are bad, it's just that Rangers are worse. Fair enough.
Currently, that's beyond dispute.

Though I accept the facts that a minority of Celtic 'ned-types' are starting to react on the same level to the actions of the R*ngers substantial xenophobic constituency.
How anyone could deny the latter, is beyond belief!!!

Which does make me feel sorry for their decent fans, one of whom I was out with just last week.

[geysir]

Maybe he was kicking the steward being a Hearts' employee!

"Maybe" is the operative word because nothing is as definitive as some people try to make out, from the video 'footage'.

[DannyInvincible]

A BBC Scotland documentary called 'Bigotry, Bombs and Football' focusing on "a season marred by parcel bombs and sectarian chanting': http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0116sqw/Bigotry_Bombs_and_Football/

It's on BBC iPlayer though so only available to UK viewers, unfortunately.