Armenia v Russia

[Stuttgart88]

Watching these games with a broken feed is torture.

Good result for us - that's 2 points back for us wrt Russia, and 3 points more from Armenia away than Slovakia got.

[Spudulika]

Russian commentators said they're happy with the draw. The rumours of match fixing proved to be nonsense. I thought it'd be a re-run of the Slovakia game, Russian huffing and puffing and get caught out. Luckily there's no post-match panel on local tv, what Dunphy would do....

[geysir]

I´m glad we don't have to go back there again.
But I guess for Armenia, taking on Russia is a serious task.

[geysir]

The Russian FA were too miserly, they didn't pay off that linesman.

[elroy]

Thing is now we got a great result before with Slovakia losing to Armenia but then we fcuked it up ourselves by losing to Russia at home. Lets make this count now and win at home tonight. COME ON IRELAND

[TrapAPony]

Fantastic result. :)...We better keep our side of the bargain.

[Noelys Guitar]

Lets hope Andorra do us a favour today as well. Not beyond the bounds for them to get a draw against a Slovak team with 1 point from there last two games.

[Stuttgart88]

Russia's lucky win in Macedonia was a big one. They'd be comfortably ahead except they lost to Slovakia.

A win tonight will be massive.

I think Andorra will get a point too :)

[geysir]

That player in the pundits chair looks familiar,
the name tag in Russian doesn't help :)

[Murfinator]

In retrospect our away win to Armenia looks fantastic given that Russia drew and Slovakia lost there.

Very hard group to call by the looks of things.

[Charlie Darwin]

This also puts our performance against Russia into perspective. Both Slovakia and Armenia have shown that if you defend well against them and don't give up silly goals, they do get frustrated and run out of ideas. That ridiculous first goal really killed us. At the same time, we're the only team to win in Armenia so far (I think?)

edit: actually we're the only team to beat Armenia at all

[EastTerracer]

Good result - helps to offset some of the damage from the Russia (h) result for Ireland. Essential that Ireland win tonight if we are to be serious contenders.

Roll on Lansdowne in less than 3 hours!

[SkStu]

Lets hope Andorra do us a favour today as well. Not beyond the bounds for them to get a draw against a Slovak team with 1 point from there last two games.


I think Andorra will get a point too :)
lets not be too greedy!

Come on the lads!!! Well up for this now...

[Noelys Guitar]

Armenia have been great for us. Keep up the good work lads (except in Dublin)

[Colbert Report]

Great result, but let's keep in mind that Slovakia will hammer Andorra today so even with a win against Macedonia, we'll be second in the group on goal difference.

[mypost]

excellent result for us, puts our win there into perspective
really opens the group up too

No, it doesn't. As we were poor for 1 hour in 4 games; Trap's going nowhere, Keane is finished, Green is a waste of space, we're all rubbish, the group is over, etc, etc, etc, etc!!!!!!

Instead of focusing on a bad hour against Russia, we should focus on the win in Armenia, the point in Slovakia, on getting a positive result tonight, that will help towards qualification. Russia have the next 3 games at home, but if we win tonight, we'll be in a strong position again.

[Stuttgart88]

I've been ranting on for years here about how your running total should average 2 points per game (ppg). 2 ppg will probably never win you the group but will always get you second - sometimes even fewer does (we got 17 last time I think = 1.7ppg). However, with 2 or 3 games left and you're averaging 2ppg then you may well only be 2 wins from winning the group.

We're 1.75ppg now, one point short of being 2ppg. A win tonight and we're back to 2ppg again.

[Spudulika]

well said My Post, I'd predicted a win against Russia if we got stuck in, we didn't, we collapsed and woke up 3-0 down. We have a good side, they play well as a unit, and but for the failure to put away France, would have gotten the hang of beating "big" teams. Armenia are a decent side, but they were lucky tonight, but they manmarked Arshavin most of the game, Ireland let him run free. I back our coach, he's his own man and he's been a success, if the meeja would get a grip and stop being led by one oligarch's war with another then there would be a bit more public confidence and balanced view of the team.

1-0 tonight and hoping that we don't get a repeat of Macedonia's best away result to date.

[Hibs4Ever]

but let's keep in mind that Slovakia will hammer Andorra today

Since they lost there last game, against the mighty Luxembourg only a couple of months ago I wouldn't be so sure about a "hammering"

[Stuttgart88]

Didn't Russia only beat Andorra 1-0 to qualify for Euro 2008?

[Spudulika]

Russia struggled to beat them this time too, horrible pitch and game, almost a major embarassment for the side.

[mypost]

well said My Post, I'd predicted a win against Russia if we got stuck in, we didn't, we collapsed and woke up 3-0 down. We have a good side, they play well as a unit, and but for the failure to put away France, would have gotten the hang of beating "big" teams. Armenia are a decent side, but they were lucky tonight, but they manmarked Arshavin most of the game, Ireland let him run free. I back our coach, he's his own man and he's been a success, if the meeja would get a grip and stop being led by one oligarch's war with another then there would be a bit more public confidence and balanced view of the team.

1-0 tonight and hoping that we don't get a repeat of Macedonia's best away result to date.

The Russia game, essentially swung on what happened in the first 10 minutes. We hit the bar in the first few minutes. If it had gone in, it may have been a different game and result.

For all their technical superiority, we're level with them halfway through the group. If both win the next two and draw in Moscow, it's 17 points all going into the last two games where we should win them both, and they have to go to Slovakia. The group is anybody's, and we're not "out-of-depth" as portrayed by the media.

[Spudulika]

The Russia game, essentially swung on what happened in the first 10 minutes. We hit the bar in the first few minutes. If it had gone in, it may have been a different game and result.

For all their technical superiority, we're level with them halfway through the group. If both win the next two and draw in Moscow, it's 17 points all going into the last two games where we should win them both, and they have to go to Slovakia. The group is anybody's, and we're not "out-of-depth" as portrayed by the media.

Somehow our meeja and barstoolers neglected to see that. Ireland had the first chance, were all over Russia, and it looked like a good night. There is such a Britishisation of our meeja that perspective doesn't exist when it comes to settling grudges and selling papers. Before the game the Russian pundits were hoping to keep it tight and snatch a draw, they kept waiting for an Irish explosion, then with the 3rd goal nobody knew what to say.

Against Macedonia our sports people kept talking about walkovers, however Macedonia are no pushovers and have players in better leagues than the sky versions and a depth of talent that belies their size. Ireland can draw with Russia, possibly win, it depends on the next 2 matches.

[mypost]

Macedonia aren't pushovers, but they have to be beaten at home if you have serious ambitions of qualifying. And they were. But the criticism continued. The goalkeeper "gave" us two goals last night to win us the game. We also "gave" the Russians a win here through an own goal, so it works both ways. We're not "entertaining enough" is the cry. It depends what you want. We've never had both at the same time. If you want to qualify, you hire the likes of Trap, if you want entertainment, you hire the likes of Paul Jewell or Martin O'Neill. With results to match.

I accept and always will accept, that our football isn't eye-candy. But when we've played so-called "better football" we've failed to qualify. So in order to be competitive and qualify, we have to play this way. We have one of the most successful coaches in world football. We've lost 2 competitive home games in 3 years and are unbeaten away, with players of limited ability. His way works. Do we really want to go back to Staunton's chaos??

Anyway, back to Armenia-Russia. Russia are a talented side, but they couldn't win in Armenia, the 5th seeds. They are a good side, but going into the second half of the campaign, they have the same points and goal difference as us. They have to go to Slovakia and get a result, as we did. Armenia have a role to play in the group too, and have to go to Russia, Slovakia, and us. It's all to play for the top 3 in the group, everyone will drop points, so it's important we don't lose the plot when we don't win.

[seanfhear]

If you want to qualify, you hire the likes of Trap, if you want entertainment, you hire the likes of Paul Jewell or Martin O'Neill. With results to match.

.
I would'nt think that too many people would say that Martin O'Neill has his teams playing entertaining football (more long ball with big striker(s) admittedly with winger/wingers
Jewel would be pretty similiar to O'Neill.

[elroy]

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,13320_6844289,00.html

interesting read on Trap's style of football versus the medias desired style of football for Ireland.

[Spudulika]

When have Ireland ever played like some sort of make believe team? We entertained most when we knocked the ball forward, chased it, harried the opposition and scored goals. This is the ulitmate attacking style, not 50 passes that lead to nothing. A winning style is a winning style, I don't think the Greeks had too many complaints when Hitzfeld got them to play functional football and they won Euro 2004.

[back of the net]

, I don't think the Greeks had too many complaints when Hitzfeld got them to play functional football and they won Euro 2004.

I think your getting Ottmar Hitzfeld confused with Otto Rehhagel.

Hitzfeld managed Switzerland after he left Bayern Munich - he never managed Greece
It was Rehhagel who managed the greeks to euro glory in 2004

[Colbert Report]

Didn't he manage Canada at one point? Sounds familiar.

[mypost]

When have Ireland ever played like some sort of make believe team? We entertained most when we knocked the ball forward, chased it, harried the opposition and scored goals. This is the ulitmate attacking style

And what made 1934-1987 an Ireland tournament-free zone.

If you want entertainment, you can take the consequences. If you want to qualify, you accept what Trap brings to the team. He's won everything that's worth winning in the club game, by playing what he believed in, not what the masses wanted. Since he's took charge, we've lost 2 competitive games, and are respected again. His way works, as unpretty as it looks.

[elroy]

Andy "Stick it down there Charlotte" Gray has an article in the star which i came across at the wkd. He was making similar points to the blog reference above. Ireland have lost 2 competitive games under Trap, came within a whisker of qualifying last campaign and are joint top halfway through this one. Also discussed how Ireland dont have the players to play the free flowing attractive football withouth at least getting very exposed at the back. He also referenced Andy Reid, how many were calling for him like the messiah not that long ago but now are very silent, Andy cant even make the XI of his new club.

Finally, he pointed to the much quoted Greek team of 2004 and how the vast majority of that team were playing CL football with either of the Greek teams or abroad. At present Ireland have two.

[DannyInvincible]

Finally, he pointed to the much quoted Greek team of 2004 and how the vast majority of that team were playing CL football with either of the Greek teams or abroad. At present Ireland have two.

I count three this season, although it makes little difference to your overall point.

[tetsujin1979]

I count three this season, although it makes little difference to your overall point.
I have four - McGeady, Gibson, O'Shea and a second half appearance by Robbie Keane for Spurs against Werder Bremen

[Stuttgart88]

We don't even have Europa League regulars.

I guess the point is twofold: higher level of competition and "international" style of opposition.

The first is debatable as I think some European games (up to the last 16 / last 8) are a bit of a procession for some teams, but the second is maybe more important. In the Greek's case they probably benefitted from both though.

[DannyInvincible]

I have four - McGeady, Gibson, O'Shea and a second half appearance by Robbie Keane for Spurs against Werder Bremen

Hehe, missed Robbie.

[AlaskaFox]

I have four - McGeady, Gibson, O'Shea and a second half appearance by Robbie Keane for Spurs against Werder Bremen

Barry Maguire and Cillian Sheridan both featured in the Europa League too.

[tetsujin1979]

Barry Maguire and Cillian Sheridan both featured in the Europa League too.
yep, but I was only talking about appearances in the Champions League

[AlaskaFox]

yep, but I was only talking about appearances in the Champions League

I know, but Stuttgart mentioned the EL, so thought I'd throw those in there too.

[tetsujin1979]

I know, but Stuttgart mentioned the EL, so thought I'd throw those in there too.
this is the list of Irish players I have who appeared for their clubs in European competition this season, either as a starting player or a substitute, including preliminary rounds, excluding any players from the Airtricity League
UEFA Cup:
Barry Maguire
Darren Randolph
Graham Stack
Liam Miller
Anthony Stokes
Cillian Sheridan
Daryl Murphy
Richie Towell
Jon Daly
Sean Dillon
Shay Given
Stephen Ireland
Greg Cunningham
Aiden McGeady

Champions League:
Daryl Murphy
Robbie Keane
Darron Gibson
John O'Shea
Aiden McGeady

[geysir]

FWIW, apart from some exceptions, our players have no regular CL experience. The Greeks had plenty. I think we can accept Gray's point as presented by Elroy.

[SkStu]

And what made 1934-1987 an Ireland tournament-free zone.

conveniently ignoring the Icelandic Triangular Tournament of 1986. Pffffft.

[Stuttgart88]

FWIW, apart from some exceptions, our players have no regular CL experience. The Greeks had plenty. I think we can accept Gray's point as presented by Elroy.What was the decisive impact of that though? The CL group stages aren't the highest standard. The EPL is arguably stronger week in, week out. Zagorakis played for Leicester and Blokemibob (Christeas?) who scored the winner in the final was a reserve in Germany.

[BonnieShels]

We can read anything into anything really. Gray makes a decent enough point.

But if you think back to that Greek side. They were regimentally drilled. If Rehhagel took 22 from here and drilled us like that over 4 years we could surprise people as well.

A slight exaggeration I know but the point stands. The were wojus but effective. The difference now though is that it seems that Traps masterplan could actually be that. A masterplan. We won't know til October but I tell ya what I would take what he's done so far over what we've put up with since the Spain game in 2002. He ha blooded a serious amount of players since he took over to the point now we are looking at having competition all over the park.

[geysir]

What was the decisive impact of that though? The CL group stages aren't the highest standard. The EPL is arguably stronger week in, week out. Zagorakis played for Leicester and Blokemibob (Christeas?) who scored the winner in the final was a reserve in Germany.
I guess the collective impact of all the factors (including CL experience) led Greece to winning the tournament. We are only looking to qualify.
Zagorakis at CM was player of the tournament and he had a good CM partner. They were 2 very experienced internationals and formed a rock solid CM defensive partnership
All goes to prove that there was nothing much wrong with the Greek team that a good CM partnership couldn't sort out.
I forget who said that, but it made sense at the time.

[Stuttgart88]

Stuttgartis I think his name was.

I'm just challenging (not refuting) the notion that the CL experience was a decisive factor, over and above the brilliant organisation.

If CL experience is such a big factor how come the English players that regularly play in the last 4 or last 2 of the CL don't get past the last 16 of a world cup. I guess the answer here is that no English goalie even plays in the CL, and the Upsons & Barrys of this world don't either. How many of the Dutch players feature in the latter stages of the CL? Some, but by no means most.

But how important is playing in the group stages (and typically no further) of the CL compared to, say, playing week-in / week-out in the EPL versus the Greek League? If it is important, why is it important? Exposure to different styles? It could well be that the CL factor is a red-herring.

My instinctive position is to hope that Andy Gray is wrong because I don't like him :)

[geysir]

I did not read AG's article but from what Elroy summarised, I gather that AG was making the point about the dearth in the quality of the players available to Ireland. He wasn't trying to explain Greece's success. He just pointed out their CL experience at the time. Means, at least the Greek players were with clubs that were of a high enough standard to get into the CL.
Afaia he was not saying that CL experience in itself was a key component with Greece's success.

[elroy]

I did not read AG's article but from what Elroy summarised, I gather that AG was making the point about the dearth in the quality of the players available to Ireland. He wasn't trying to explain Greece's success. He just pointed out their CL experience at the time. Means, at least the Greek players were with clubs that were of a high enough standard to get into the CL.
Afaia he was not saying that CL experience in itself was a key component with Greece's success.

Correct, he was primarily referring to the range of options available to us. He said that there are more Irish professionals in the English league than ever before but most are now at championship level or below. Whereas in the past Liverpool, Villa, United, Arsenal etc all had a strong Irish contingent. I dont really accept this point entirely though as it is a different game now, far more 'foreign' players in the UK therefore there is bound to be less of any nationality at the top clubs.

On the Greece point, he was just referring to the fact that the Greeks are often quoted as what you can do with a limited bunch of players. Gray's simple point was that although the Greeks were limited they still had numerous CL regulars i.e. they were no mugs. Ireland by comparison has very few regulars at CL level.

[Stuttgart88]

True, and none of this answers my questions.

Does our lack of CL representation rule us out from being described as "no mugs"? Most of our players play for clubs who the English CL clubs find harder to play against than their early CL opponents.

Do Olympiakos and Panathanaikos (or whoever) get to the CL just because there is a route to the CL for them? Would either beat Stoke who have 4 Irish players? Does having 4 Irish at the 10th best team in England not also mean that we are no mugs?

Just because we have few CL players does not mean we are a limited bunch. The fact that we are a limited bunch does though :)

But I'm sure that if some of our players were prepared to earn less than they can in the EPL and live abroad, they too could play in the CL - at least the early part.

If CL experience was what determined quality, than Darren O'Dea would be nailed on as CB. Instead a Preston CB is ahead of him, and rightly so.

[geysir]

You were referring to A Gray as if he had claimed that CL experience was a decisive factor in the Greeks success.
My answer was directed to that misconception.

Re CL experience, I think a good player will benefit from playing the top clubs from other leagues in CL competition. Playing against different styles, players, pressures. How he performs in such games is one of the ways you can judge him as a player. The fact that a player is involved in the CL is not a barometer of quality by itself. CL experience doesn't make a silk purse out of .....

Re relative standards, you do remember Arsenal getting beaten in the UEFA final by a Turkish club. Arsenal also make heavy weather out of adjusting to the CL.
If Stoke were in the CL, they would get hammered in the group stages and probably get hammered by the Greek teams who have the annual CL experience. The EPL is Stoke's comfort zone.

[Stuttgart88]

Hey, I had had 5 pints watching Spurs v Real when I posted that :)

PO'S even dropped in for a bit.

I think the best way to interpret AG's remark is "even though the Greek players didn't play in the strongest leagues, they at least had good CL experience, so they were no mugs". I would counter by saying our players are no mugs either because most play at a high enough level.

Arsenal tend to coast through the CL group stages by the way, but get careless or over-confident at times. Arsenal v Galatasaray was in 2000!