"Paddy's" Day

[dahamsta]

[Continued from here (http://foot.ie/threads/147953-The-new-D%C3%A1il?p=1464967&viewfull=1#post1464967).]


First off, well done, PS, for voicing one of my absolute hates: referring to the national holiday as Paddy’s Day.

If you're religious fair enough, but if you're not, what's the problem? It's hardly a day of worship and respect at this stage, it's a day of drinking and debauchery in the name of a person we know nothing about (unless we're to take their own words (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick#In_his_own_words) as face value), that represented a religion that had only just moved past the Scientology phase.

I'd actually prefer if it was called something like Ireland Day or even Paddys Day, instead of reaffirming ourselves to others every year that our entire philosophy revolves around a religion based on nonsense word of mouth, and a retarded fairy-story about snakes.

All that being said, if I'm ever in the presence of a Merkin that calls it "Patty's Day", I'll kick his feckin' head in.

[Mr A]

Lay off Saint Patrick. Any saint thorough enough to not only banish the snakes but also the fossil record of their previous presence gets my vote every time.

[horton]

Exactly, if it wasn't for him we might still have the practise of sucking a fellow mans nipple as a sign of friendship!!

[Dodge]

He made a great football club too

[Eminence Grise]

If you're religious fair enough, but if you're not, what's the problem?

Call it uneasiness at diminishing ourselves. It’s not merely the diminutive of a name, it’s also a word pregnant with layers of meaning. We use it almost as a term of endearment, but heap calumny on those who use it against us as a term of abuse. I can’t square that circle. In some ways, I look on it as being akin to the n-word and queer – you can’t simply say that because your community uses them, you’ve robbed them of their power to disparage and hurt when others use them. I know if somebody called me a paddy I’d give them what for.

I also can’t think of any positive connotation of paddy – paddywhackery, paddywagon, Paddy Irishman jokes, Paddy’s Day (which is more a signifier of the celebrants than the saint) - and while it might once have been an accepted way of describing the poor simian creatures of this island, in that vile Punch style, I think we’ve gone far beyond needing to pander to the stereotype of poor drunken Paddy with his pigs in the parlour.


It’s just my opinion, but it’s something I feel very strongly about.

[dahamsta]

You know "paddy" isn't just an insult right; that there are actually paddys out there? As it happens I only know one directly, and he happens to be 2nd generation african, but I've seen plenty more in books, newspapers, etc.

In all honesty, I've never, not even once, taken the use of the word "paddy" in "paddy's day" as anything but a shortening for "patrick". Are you sure you're not just going out of your way to be insulted? I only ask because that happens quite a lot on Foot.ie. ;)

[Eminence Grise]

You know "paddy" isn't just an insult right; that there are actually paddys out there? As it happens I only know one directly, and he happens to be 2nd generation african, but I've seen plenty more in books, newspapers, etc.

In all honesty, I've never, not even once, taken the use of the word "paddy" in "paddy's day" as anything but a shortening for "patrick". Are you sure you're not just going out of your way to be insulted? I only ask because that happens quite a lot on Foot.ie. ;)

I'm not sure if your last sentence is subtly asking whether I'm trolling: I'm not. If you don't want this debate to go down that route, then I have no difficulty with agreeing to delete any posts related to this, and get back on topic. In fairness, we've wandered a long way from the new Dail at this stage, partly because you asked me a question, which I took to be a genuine query, albeit a tad snide; perhaps it wasn't. But I replied as honestly as I could, and anything else I have to say on it will just come back to my previous post.

[dahamsta]

Nope, wasn't accusing you of trolling at all. There's a genuine tendency of people on Foot.ie, and forums in general, to go utterly out of their way to be offended about things; things that in usual life they wouldn't be all that bothered about. I do it myself occasionally, but not that often because I'm aware of the phenonemon.

You just seem to be getting very het up about something that just seems a bit odd to me -- I think to most people, it's just a nickname. Most people love the day, so they're hardly going to take a sly dig at us in the fun of it all.

EDIT: I've split this out to a new thread, sorry for taking the original off-topic.

[Eminence Grise]

Impassioned, not het-up!:D

You should hear me giving out about the national flag!!! Definite infraction territory for me!!!

Hopefully there'll be some interesting/forthright views on the new thread - thanks for setting it up.

[DaveyCakes]

Is it really that hard for people to say "Patrick"?

[Mr A]

Personally I think the actual holiday should be changed to Ireland Day, and probably moved to the summer. People can still celebrate the saint if they want to.

[John83]

Is it really that hard for people to say "Patrick"?
Yes. When's the last time you heard someone refer to "St Patrick's Athletic" in casual conversation? It's just "Pats", thanks.

As for the notion that referring to the day as Paddy's makes a fool of ourselves, we do that every year by perpetuating stereotypes of ourselves as drunken eejits.

[Kingdom]

Exactly, if it wasn't for him we might still have the practise of sucking a fellow mans nipple as a sign of friendship!!

That's gone? Ah that explains all the funny looks and beatings I've been getting.

[Dodge]

Yes. When's the last time you heard someone refer to "St Patrick's Athletic" in casual conversation? It's just "Pats", thanks

You, clearly, have never attended a meeting of the St Patrick's Athletic grammar society

[Lionel Ritchie]

Personally I think the actual holiday should be changed to Ireland Day, and probably moved to the summer. People can still celebrate the saint if they want to.

+1. Madness having a national day in the middle of March. We should make July 12th a/the national holiday. Might even help sort out some of the nonsense that goes with that and all.

Besides ....this Patrick character apparently DIED on March 17th ...scarcely his day.

[Macy]

Besides ....this Patrick character apparently DIED on March 17th ...scarcely his day.
Better than hijacking a pagan festival, which is what the Catholic Church usually did...

[John83]

You, clearly, have never attended a meeting of the St Patrick's Athletic grammar society
Grammatical society.

[Dodge]

I knew I'd balls that up. Ugh! (sic etc etc blah blah)

[SkStu]

Grammatical society.

better known to you UCD folk as gramsoc? :D

[peadar1987]

Impassioned, not het-up!:D

You should hear me giving out about the national flag!!! Definite infraction territory for me!!!

Hopefully there'll be some interesting/forthright views on the new thread - thanks for setting it up.




Go on then...

[Eminence Grise]

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224292775694

That do for starters?

[peadar1987]

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224292775694

That do for starters?


That's very disappointing. I was hoping you were one of the Green, White and Gold brigade. I was in the mood for a rant! :)

[Eminence Grise]

Sorry to let you down, but my powers of self-control are remarkably strong today (that and not having time to launch into a diatribe). Suffice to say, http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Youth_Zone/About_the_Constitution,_Flag,_Anthem_Harp/The_National_Flag-PDF.pdf pretty much covers all my flag pet hates.

[Spudulika]

Something to maybe get everyone riled up and stoning the British Embassy for. The traditional St. Patrick's Day parade in Moscow was cancelled to the delight of the "English" reporters in Moscow and Russians who figure that English is the mother country for civilization. There was serious kneelers put on the Irish to cancel it and they decided to take a year off. The complaints ran thus:
Why do the Irish get to celebrate their holiday?
Why do they get to celebrate their holiday on Novi Arbat?
What is so important about the Irish that they get to do this?

Now, this came from a major lobby faction and was plastered all over the Moscow Times and Moscow News papers 3 years ago. Not so subtle pressure came on from siloviki sources and suddenly the Irish week (which coincides with the Irish Film Festival) was pretty much pushed out of sight. According to the Consul it's just untl things blow over regarding, well, the stock answer is, trouble. It's nothing to do with terrorism or threat thereof, it's nothing to do with blocking Novy Arbat for an hour (because the parade gets held on a Sunday normally when it's quiet) and it's nothing to do with drunkeness and debauchery (that's left to Moscow nightlife). It comes down to pure and utter jealousy and snobbery and an ongoing war by the British trade council to take back business in Russia from the Irish. Consider this, 6 British heads concentrating on Sochi alone, almost 30 in the country chasing up business. Enterprise Ireland have - 1 25 year old Irish guy with 2 Russian support staff (read phone answerers) and he has to cover 16 countries!

I'd never felt any reason to dislike the diminuitive form of Patrick, though from 2008 I saw that it is used as a distainful spit in our direction from some sections. On the surface English people I've met here like to join in, but I've also seen and heard them openly ridicule the Irish for being "potato munchers". They'll drink our beer and enjoy our festivities, then go away to try prevent any further outlets.

Sorry for this rant, I'm not fully in agreement with EG on the Paddys thing, though I can see his point and see the irrelevancy of having the world's most popular holiday when our own government don't bother their backsides doing anything to follow up on it and bring business and prosperity to the country.

[peadar1987]

In one way, I think the "worldwideness" of Paddy's Day (used unapologetically!) could be working against us. Mardi Gras in New Orleans, and the Carnival in Rio are once-in-a-lifetime things to visit. Paddy's Day in Ireland, not so much, perhaps in no small part due to the fact that there's a parade and celebration in every hamlet from here to Tajikistan.

Of course ,finding a balance between "famous worldwide", and "celebrated worldwide", is something that's very hard to do.

[Spudulika]

Very good points Peadar, I agree there needs to be a balance. What irks me is that instead of a co-ordinated push of Irish products and services, it's a basic p1ss up and forgotten soon after. I know that Brand Ireland is not an illusion, we do get more respect than others because of our history, culture and the fact that we don't behave badly (usually) in foreign places. This needs to be grown more now than ever before.

[Eminence Grise]

I'd never felt any reason to dislike the diminuitive form of Patrick, though from 2008 I saw that it is used as a distainful spit in our direction from some sections. On the surface English people I've met here like to join in, but I've also seen and heard them openly ridicule the Irish for being "potato munchers". They'll drink our beer and enjoy our festivities, then go away to try prevent any further outlets.
Nor I, as a name. My issue isn't with the proper noun, but its adjectival use. When it's used to as a byword for the Irish people's day, it can have precisely the snide "potato munchers" connotations that you mention. People do associate it with a p155-up, and label us a nation of drunks accordingly. What price Brand Ireland with that at its core? We can use it in a jocular way; others use it to deride, and we take offence at that, as any proud nation would when it's disparaged. As long as that polarity of meaning exists, I don't think that, in a Clerks 2 "porch monkey" kind of way, we've taken it back.