Irish Language Question

[sean r]

i am going to take lessions to speak irish here in the usa. i know that there are diffrent dialects within the irish language. are the dialects remotely different? can someone from kerry understand someone from connemera? or donegal even? how different are the dialects within irish? if i learn one version will i be understood within all of eire? or will i have a major problem in different places in ireland?

go raibh maith agat

[tetsujin1979]

technically, there's three dialects.
Leinster and Munster Irish are more or less the same, Ulster Irish is very different.
The only uniquely Ulster Irish phrase I know is "go nae mar atá tú" (probably spelt that wrong) which is "how are you?"
In Munster and Leinster it would be "conas atá tú"

[sean r]

what irish is spoken on tg4?

[dcfc_1928]

Almost right - "Cad é mar atá tú?"


technically, there's three dialects.
Leinster and Munster Irish are more or less the same, Ulster Irish is very different.
The only uniquely Ulster Irish phrase I know is "go nae mar atá tú" (probably spelt that wrong) which is "how are you?"
In Munster and Leinster it would be "conas atá tú"

[Eminence Grise]

By sheer coincidence, there was a documentary on Radio 1 today about learning Irish. I only caught the last few minutes of it, but it sounded interesting

More Irish than the Irish Themselves
10 March 2011 12:00
In the last 100 years, we Irish have struggled with our native language. Now in 2011, less than 2% of us speak it on a daily basis. This is a story of passion - from 'non-Irish' people who see the beauty in the language and have been inspired to learn it

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_documentaryonone.xml

Hope it helps, sean r (and enjoy learning the cúpla focal).

[tetsujin1979]

Almost right - "Cad é mar atá tú?"
thanks, I knew it was spelt wrong, but pronounced similarly

[EAFC_rdfl]

tg4 irish would be 'mainly' connemara, as its recorded out there. But quite a few of their newsreaders are from donegal and speak with the best donegal irish dialect...
I'd find the cork/kerry irish almost impossible to understand, the connemara/galway less so. I don't think theres anything to worry about re learning one dialect over another, I think most irish speakers would be well able to understand the basics in any dialect. go n-éirí an bothar leat ag foghlaim an teanga

[Bluebeard]

I'd have the reverse problem to EAFC above - Grew up with Munster Irish, and the "Dublin Irish" variations, but I have great difficulty understanding Ulster Irish; Connemara Irish I can follow, though I'm slow with it.

Despite my love of the Munster variation, I'd recommend learning Connemara Irish for comprehension of other dialects, as I am going to guess that it has the best chance of understanding the others, plus TG4 is a good tool to brush it up if away from Ireland. However the simplest Irish for non-native speakers to understand is probably school / "Dublin" Irish - a (simplified?) version of Munster Irish, and less heavily accented.

What part of the US are you in? That may influence what Irish you should learn, as I believe different parts have traditionally been destinations for different speakers, so it might decide the matter for you.

As a side note, am I right in thinking that there are four variations on the "how are you", one for each dialect?
"Dublin": Conas atá tu?
Munster: Conas taoi?
Connemara: Céach a bhfuil tu? (spellign si qweshionable)
Ulster: Cád é mar atá tu?

[sean r]

i am in new york

[holidaysong]

As a side note, am I right in thinking that there are four variations on the "how are you", one for each dialect?
"Dublin": Conas atá tu?
Munster: Conas taoi?
Connemara: Céach a bhfuil tu? (spellign si qweshionable)
Ulster: Cád é mar atá tu?

One of my Irish teachers was from Galway and used to teach us; 'Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?'

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, that's the one I heard for Connacht Irish too.

Horrible, horrible memories of Ulster Irish appearing on Irish aural exams.

[John83]

how different are the dialects within irish? if i learn one version will i be understood within all of eire? or will i have a major problem in different places in ireland?
Can you understand people from Cork and Ulster in English? If anything, I reckon their Irish varies less from the norm than their English.


Horrible, horrible memories of Ulster Irish appearing on Irish aural exams.
*shudders*

[pineapple stu]

Haven't you just contradicted yourself in that post?

[Wolfie]

Yeah, that's the one I heard for Connacht Irish too.

Horrible, horrible memories of Ulster Irish appearing on Irish aural exams.

Holy creeping God. The Irish aural exams. Now there's a particular brand of torture I'd long blanked from my mind.

Did anyone have to study Peig???

We managed to side step that one in favour of a bizarre study of Irish myths and legends. Does that ring any bells with anyone??

It was not uncommon for 300 people to be slaughtered in one sitting in some of these stories. Kill Bill, eat your heart out.

[tetsujin1979]

we did that one, Toraíocht Diarmuid agus Grainne.

And then they wonder why people leave school hating the language??

[pineapple stu]

I dropped down to pass before the Junior Cert results came out; ended up reading Dúnmharú ar on DART. Made me more pity the language than appreciate it; wasn't the most literary of books from what I recall. However, I do have a curious urge to read Peig one of the days to find out what all the fuss is about.

[Wolfie]

we did that one, Toraíocht Diarmuid agus Grainne.

And then they wonder why people leave school hating the language??

The very one!!!!!!

I recall one story where a worm managed to embed itself into some geezers skull.

Cian agus an ball seirce?????????

[John83]

Haven't you just contradicted yourself in that post?
No, merely implied that my grasp of Irish isn't up there with my grasp of English. And that I was taught Irish by a Kerryman.

[bluemovie]

Galway Irish is probably the best inbetweener. Kerry and Donegal Irish are different in a lot of ways. Between the accent and the dialect, I find it very difficult to understand Donegal speakers.

[pineapple stu]

No, merely implied that my grasp of Irish isn't up there with my grasp of English. And that I was taught Irish by a Kerryman.
Hm.

I think it's generally accepted that there's a much bigger difference between Irish dialects and English accents around the country, to the extent that you'd hear of Irish "dialects" and English "accents". A dialect is a step up in independence from an accent.

[John83]

Hm.

I think it's generally accepted that there's a much bigger difference between Irish dialects and English accents around the country, to the extent that you'd hear of Irish "dialects" and English "accents". A dialect is a step up in independence from an accent.
Fair point. I can't really debate it either, as my experience of the various varieties of Irish is limited (and half-forgotten). I don't recall too much in the way of actual words and phrases varying, just accents (some, granted, quite thick). Maybe they are careful to limit their vocabulary for material for schools. Can a gaelgoir enlighten us?

Anyway, as long as anyone who insists Ulster Scots is a language gets a solid cyeack oon da nads, I'm happy to call the local versions of Irish dialects or whatever.

[bluemovie]

There are major differences in words and phrases as well as the pronunciation of words (not just related to accent). One small one that springs to mind (but wouldn't impede understanding) is the common word 'raibh' pronounced rev in Munster and row (as in argument) in Connacht. My Irish would be reasonable, but not perfect by any means, but Mr Bluemovie Snr is a Kerryman and native speaker and he sometimes struggles to understand Donegal Irish.

[John83]

There are major differences in words and phrases as well as the pronunciation of words (not just related to accent). One small one that springs to mind (but wouldn't impede understanding) is the common word 'raibh' pronounced rev in Munster and row (as in argument) in Connacht. My Irish would be reasonable, but not perfect by any means, but Mr Bluemovie Snr is a Kerryman and native speaker and he sometimes struggles to understand Donegal Irish.
I'm reminded of a conversation a few UCD fans had with some kids at a Longford match many years ago, which ended with the kids asking, "Wail, how do you pronounce c'yarr?" A Londoner, told this story might ask if the kids were just "'avin' a larf?" There was a rumour (I presume it didn't happen) that Cheryl Cole was to be subtitled in the US (certainly, she was told to tone down the accent). A few words pronounced differently doesn't make a dialect, nor does an accent which is tough to make out.

[bluemovie]

Ok it was a bad example. There are words and phrases that only exist in one dialect or another though. I'm just not the most expert person to explain. I'm pretty sure, for instance, that 'tarna' meaning 2nd only appears in Munster Irish and is meaningless elsewhere, but again, I'm stuck for examples.

[pineapple stu]

I think the examples for a basic phrase like "How are you?" show some of the differences. OK, in English you can say "Howaya" or "Aw'righ' mate?", but even those can transcend locations. In fact, "How are you?" is the phrase wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language#Dialects) looks at when concluding this about Irish dialects -


he differences between dialects are considerable, and have led to recurrent difficulties in defining standard Irish

Ulster Irish sounds very different and shares several features with southern dialects of Scottish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic

And also, I'm sure if my Irish was better, I'd have less difficulty with Ulster Irish. And yeah, Ulster Scoots isn't a language.

[sean r]

omg i am so confused now!!!!!

[awec]

How hard is it to actually learn irish?

I mean, my idea of it is that because it's such an old language then unlike modern languages like french/spanish there cannot be that much to it. There are bound to be LOADS of modern day words and phrases for which there is no irish translation for, right?

Or am I totally wrong here?

It's part of the culture of this island but my school never gave the option to learn it all those years back. I had to do poxy spanish instead.

[pineapple stu]

You'd be surprised. Words like "computer" and "internet" and others which you'd think - being relatively modern inventions - would have no Irish equivalent do have translations (ríomhaire, gréasán - calculator, network). Other words - particularly scientific ones - wouldn't be English in origin anyway, so it's not that big a deal that Irish uses similar phrases - the microbiology department in UCD is "mícrobitheolaíocht", which sounds like a cop out, but the word microbiology itself comes from three Greek words (mikros, bios and logia). But in everyday language, I'd say the vast majority of words we use are very old, and have perfectly serviceable Irish equivalents. Your post includes no idea newer than a couple of hundred years old, I'd say. The only word there's probably no direct translation for is "poxy", but there's other words for that.

Learning it isn't that hard I think. Probably the hardest part is finding a medium for keeping from rusting up. I was down in two parts of the Gaeltacht at the weekend (Connemara and the Dingle peninsula) and heard one word of Irish spoken in that time "chicken kiev agus burger". It is different from most other languages - it's not like knowing Spanish and learning Portuguese, for example. Syntactically, it's different and the word order can throw you (You don't say "I am a teacher", for example - you have to say something like "I am in my teachership". There's no words for "Yes" or "No" either. Stuff like that)

The only other issue is whether it's worth learning. I don't think there's anyone alive who speaks only Irish and no other languages. Your choice of books in Irish is very limited - I'm told you can get Harry Potter, but you can get that in English too. The news is in English and Irish. There's bugger all practical advantage to be gained from learning it. But it is handy as a secret code abroad, or as a conversation topic. And some of the phrases are wonderfully descriptive - "Uisce beatha", "Staighre beo" and "Craiceann a bhualadh le" for example; they mean "Whiskey", "Escalator" and "To have sex with", but literally translate as "Water of life", "Living stairs" and "To meet the skin with"; it's worth learning the language for those kind of insights alone.

[tetsujin1979]

Your choice of books in Irish is very limited - I'm told you can get Harry Potter, but you can get that in English too.There's a dubbed version of Happy Potter as gaelige as well. TG4 showed it at Christmas, but I'm not sure if it's available to buy.

And some of the phrases are wonderfully descriptive - "Uisce beatha", "Staighre beo" and "Craiceann a bhualadh le" for example; they mean "Whiskey", "Escalator" and "To have sex with", but literally translate as "Water of life", "Living stairs" and "To meet the skin with"; it's worth learning the language for those kind of insights alone.I learned "to have sex" as "ag bualadh craiceann" which also translates as "beating leather"!

[pineapple stu]

Speaking of dubbed versions, I love the way TG4 not only dubs the likes of The Muppet Show and South Park, but tries to get the voices right as well.

[awec]

Whiskey = water of life? Brilliant! :D

[Red Army]

Is there any 'bad' words in Irish? it's not something you would learn in school but seems strange if there isn't

[tetsujin1979]

Is there any 'bad' words in Irish? it's not something you would learn in school but seems strange if there isn't
only swear word I ever learned was shlite-tarbh (terrible spelling there, it's pronounced sh-lit-eh tarv) which is bullsh!t
Never learned it in Irish class, our geography teacher used it repeatedly

[pineapple stu]

Cac tarbh was the one I heard for that, but I think it was a makey-uppey phrase (a literal translation rather than a genuine phrase).

There's a thread on boards (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055081088) about it, but again, a lot of the phrases seem to be just literal translations of English ones.

Póg mo thóin is the obvious one that everyone'd know.

[John83]

Póg mo thóin is the obvious one that everyone'd know.
So well known that The Wire had a pair of minor Irish-American police officers called Polk and Mahon (they pronounced it Mahone).

[awec]

So well known that The Wire had a pair of minor Irish-American police officers called Polk and Mahon (they pronounced it Mahone).

Is "póg mo thóin" pronounced "polk ma-hone" then? I have no idea how to pronounce irish words based off their spelling. I feel like I'm missing out. :(

[John83]

Is "póg mo thóin" pronounced "polk ma-hone" then? I have no idea how to pronounce irish words based off their spelling. I feel like I'm missing out. :(
No, more like powg muh hone, but Polk sounds close enough.

[awec]

See, I always thought it was as it was written, so thoin rhymed with "loin", as in a bit of meat. :D

[peadar1987]

Irish is taught so badly in schools. How much better a state would the language be in if students were taught practical, interesting stuff, instead of having to read godawful pieces of ****e like gafa, and ancient poetry that bears almost no resemblance to modern, living Irish.

[tetsujin1979]

I've maintained a similar stance for years, that Irish would be better taught the same way French, Spanish and German are, i.e. as a foreign language.
I left school speaking far better French than Irish.

In Paris in 2009, I was finally able to put it into use, and didn't do too badly.

[EAFC_rdfl]

You'd be surprised. Words like "computer" and "internet" and others which you'd think - being relatively modern inventions - would have no Irish equivalent do have translations (ríomhaire, gréasán - calculator, network). Other words - particularly scientific ones - wouldn't be English in origin anyway, so it's not that big a deal that Irish uses similar phrases - the microbiology department in UCD is "mícrobitheolaíocht", which sounds like a cop out, but the word microbiology itself comes from three Greek words (mikros, bios and logia). But in everyday language, I'd say the vast majority of words we use are very old, and have perfectly serviceable Irish equivalents. Your post includes no idea newer than a couple of hundred years old, I'd say. The only word there's probably no direct translation for is "poxy", but there's other words for that.

Learning it isn't that hard I think. Probably the hardest part is finding a medium for keeping from rusting up. I was down in two parts of the Gaeltacht at the weekend (Connemara and the Dingle peninsula) and heard one word of Irish spoken in that time "chicken kiev agus burger". It is different from most other languages - it's not like knowing Spanish and learning Portuguese, for example. Syntactically, it's different and the word order can throw you (You don't say "I am a teacher", for example - you have to say something like "I am in my teachership". There's no words for "Yes" or "No" either. Stuff like that)

The only other issue is whether it's worth learning. I don't think there's anyone alive who speaks only Irish and no other languages. Your choice of books in Irish is very limited - I'm told you can get Harry Potter, but you can get that in English too. The news is in English and Irish. There's bugger all practical advantage to be gained from learning it. But it is handy as a secret code abroad, or as a conversation topic. And some of the phrases are wonderfully descriptive - "Uisce beatha", "Staighre beo" and "Craiceann a bhualadh le" for example; they mean "Whiskey", "Escalator" and "To have sex with", but literally translate as "Water of life", "Living stairs" and "To meet the skin with"; it's worth learning the language for those kind of insights alone.

what about 'is mise muinteoir' = 'I am a teacher'? sounds like you are thinking about describing feelings, i.e. 'Tá brón orm' = = ' I have sadness on me', meaning 'I am sad'.
Yes = sea, No = Ní shea.


Cac tarbh was the one I heard for that, but I think it was a makey-uppey phrase (a literal translation rather than a genuine phrase).

There's a thread on boards (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055081088) about it, but again, a lot of the phrases seem to be just literal translations of English ones.

Póg mo thóin is the obvious one that everyone'd know.
yeah we always said cac bó for bull sh1t, same idea as cac tarbh

[pineapple stu]

"Sea" is a shortened version of "Is ea", meaning "It is". "Ní shea" isn't Irish. There's no direct translation for yes and no in Irish. You have to affirm the original verb -

"Is that your car?" "It is" ("An í sin do charr?" "Is í.")
"Are you ready?" "I am indeed" ("An bhfuil tú réidh?" "Tá, cinnte")
"Were you in Murphy's last night?" "I was." ("An raibh tú i Tig Uí Mhurchú aréir?" "D'Bhíos")
"Would you like a pint?" "I would like" ("Ar mhaith leat pionta?" "Ba mhaith liom", or "An bhfuil pionta uait?" "Tá, go deimhin")

"Tá mé i mo mhúinteóir" is one way of saying "I'm a teacher". I know because I used to enjoy driving my Irish teacher mad saying it; he'd be always ready to come down like a ton of bricks on "Tá mé múinteóir". I think the alternative is "Is múinteóir mé", not "Is mise múinteóir".

Bó is a cow; tarbh is a bull (a cow is a female; a bull is a male). Cac bó means cow****.

[osarusan]

This issue of not saying (or being able to say) yes or no in Irish has also had an impact on the way Irish people speak English. Quite a few studies have been done (none of them to hand now) on how Irish people don't say 'yes' or 'no' as much as other English speakers.