Dream appointment

[irishultra]

scenario: wolves get relegated from prem...mick mccarthhy feels he should take a break from management after managing wolves for the best part of 6 years. roll on november and ireland lose in a playoff and fail 2 qualify for poland/ukraine. traps contract is over and 2 weeks later mick mccarthy is appointed inheriting the most promising irish squad in many years. i can envision him on the touchline in the maracana already ;)

[Alf Honn]

Hard to see the bacon slicer bloke being sexy enough for Denis O'Brien to subvent.

[Crosby87]

I like it. I would welcome him back with open arms even if situations like that never work. My funniest memory of him is how he was wearing those shorts during the WC games. Not leaving much to the imagination. For Goodness's sake no one told him how silly he looked?

[Supreme feet]

The longer we go without qualification, the better McCarthy's reign looks in hindsight. I'd imagine Scotland fans feel the same way about Craig Brown. However, I think McCarthy had better players to work with than Kerr, Staunton or Trap: by 2000, the team had a lot of leadership, and good players in the prime and form of their careers: think of Cunningham, Breen, Staunton, Kinsella, Roy Keane, McAteer, Holland, Quinn; along with the youth of Harte, Given, Carr, Finnan, Keane, Duff and Dunne. We haven't had that mix of youth and experience since, and certainly not the kind of strong characters and CM options that McCarthy had at his disposal.

One thing that strikes me about McCarthy is that he seems to motivate teams to play extremely well against the big teams: but his teams also lack the ruthlessness to grind out results against teams of limited/equal ability. We've seen it for Wolves this season, but also for Ireland under Mick. Our excellent wins against Croatia, Yugoslavia and Holland were interspersed with home 0-0s against Iceland and Lithuania and two terrible results in Macedonia. I woud accept that - being in transition - we weren't good enough to beat Belgium in the 1997 playoff, but I also think Euro 2000 was a chance missed. Drawing Turkey in the playoff was a reprieve after blowing it in Croatia and Macedonia, and we didn't take the opportunity.

However, I wouldn't be sulking if McCarthy was given the job again, despite having misgivings about such a retroactive appointment. He will have learned from the past (as he did progressively when he was in the job) and there are very few links between his 2002 squad and those who will be around for the 2014 campaign. In terms of an 'exciting' appointment, I'd rather go with Owen Coyle, Martin O'Neill or Chris Hughton, if any of them wanted the job. I really don't see Trap hanging around after this campaign, anyway, nor would I expect another Denis O'Brien bailout to get a manager of genuine international renown.

[CraftyToePoke]

The longer we go without qualification, the better McCarthy's reign looks in hindsight. I'd imagine Scotland fans feel the same way about Craig Brown. However, I think McCarthy had better players to work with than Kerr, Staunton or Trap: by 2000, the team had a lot of leadership, and good players in the prime and form of their careers: think of Cunningham, Breen, Staunton, Kinsella, Roy Keane, McAteer, Holland, Quinn; along with the youth of Harte, Given, Carr, Finnan, Keane, Duff and Dunne. We haven't had that mix of youth and experience since, and certainly not the kind of strong characters and CM options that McCarthy had at his dispoal

I can see what you are getting at but I think the standout difference was Roy Keane, that apart the squads are comparable, I mean Cunningham was at the time a Wimbledon full back, Breen and Staunton were surpassing in green anything they could do at their club sides, if they were even in their club sides at times. McAteer was a Blackburn/Sunderland player having ultimately not fulfilled his potential at Liverpool. Kinsella had lost his place at Charlton to a young Scott Parker and moved to Villa around this time, and if memory serves, faded badly after a decent first season there. Holland was at his best around then, granted.

As for the youth, Duff and Keane could change a game, but the others were just solid international players and I remember Dunne had ropey periods when off field antics were threatning his career.

Not wishing to run your post down but its sometimes easy to look back at things a bit more fondly than they maybe were at the time, our group of players now should be able to match the achievements of those above, if not just yet, then soon I believe. I realise there is the Roy Keane factor, and that is a big one, we have nothing like him at present, but McCarthy's Ireland had to learn to deal with life post McGrath, just as big a loss.

We just desperately need to qualify, but I think the current player pool, if well managed does have it in them.

[Supreme feet]

Actually, CTP, you may be right. Compare today's first choice side...

- - - - - - - - -Given - - - - - - - - -
O'Shea - Dunne - St. Ledger - Clark
McGeady - Whelan - Fahey/Gibson/Andrews - Duff
- - - - - - Doyle - Keane - - - - -

...with the side who started against Holland in 2001

- - - - - - - - - Given - - - - - - -
- -G. Kelly - Dunne - Staunton - Harte
McAteer - Roy Keane - Holland - Kilbane
- - - - - - -Duff - Robbie Keane - - - - - - -

... and the only real difference is central midfield. However, in McCarthy's day, we had so many more experienced options in the squad. That victory over Holland was achieved without Carr, Cunningham, Breen, Kinsella and Quinn, who had started the campaign as first choice players. We don't really have as much experience in reserve these days. We do have more promising youngsters, though.

[CraftyToePoke]

Its funny how time moves perception around, at the time were those players seen as wonderfully experienced or was it just a lack of youth coming through to put them out to pasture ? Some of them anyway.

Today we have Kilbane, in a similar way to some of those McCarthy era players, and almost to a man on here we berate Trap for utilising him and his experience.

But you are right in what you say as well, as we now may face Macedonia shorn of Keane, Given and Dunne and as bright as our young squad may be in a year or two, they may not be ready to hurdle that game by themselves yet.

Funny old game ....

[Supreme feet]

Back in 2002, it was expected that the likes of Miller, McPhail, Healy and Steven Reid would come through in midfield, with Andy O'Brien and O'Shea coming through at the back alongside Dunne, and Doherty and Morrison replacing Quinn as the 'target men'. Graham Barrett, Richie Partridge and Richie Sadlier were also still on the fringes, while Stephen Elliott, Glenn Whelan, Paddy McCarthy and Stephen Kelly were starring for the U-18s in the 2002 Euros in Norway. Our future looked pretty good then! :(

[Kingdom]

I honestly saw this decade that's just gone as being a potential golden age for the senior side - it just never happened. We looked to have decent options (for a country of our size) in most areas, but the civil war meant we never got back on the footing that a successful WC02 should have put us on, and the wrong decisions at the wrong time at board room level have killed us even more. Hopefully with another batch of promising player on the threshold of breaking through, this decade might work out slightly better.

[macdermesser]

Would welcome Mick back with open arms. Did he apply for the job last time around? I remember reading something on here about it. That he was interviewed.

[Jicked]

A "dream" appointment which involves us not qualifying for a tournament we're right in with a shout of qualifying for. Can't beat the Irish fans eh.

As for Mick, I'd hate to see him come back. He had a very good WC 2002 campaign but took him an awful long time to get there, and had a very good squad of players in that campaign. Since then he's been a yo-yo manager in the Championship/Premiership unable to cement a place in the Premiership and even managed to accumulate the lowest points total in Premier League history.

[the bear]

i'd prefer owen coyle

[Stuttgart88]

... and the only real difference is central midfield.
It's been a gaping hole for about 7 years. We've been spoilt down the years with Giles, Brady, Keane, McGrath and others. Full back, especially left back, is a weak area too, but I think our forwards, wide players, first choice keepers, and centre-backs would be good enough to be competitive against most good teams if only we had a genuinlely top-class CM.

I think Mick could do a great job, although 1 goal leads appraoching 90 minutes could be too much for the heart.

[Murfinator]

I'd prefer the continuity of Tardelli being appointed.

[Jicked]

Anyone else find it pretty odd the good press McCarthy gets? On paper his record is probably similar to someone like Gary Megson, and he certainly had no quick success with Ireland. Yet Mick's reputation is much higher despite all that, in the press and as a result with most fans. Any coincidence that he's a journalist's dream with all his hilarious quotes and gurning faces?

[Fixer82]

I'd prefer the continuity of Tardelli being appointed.

Yeah I imagine he'd be much more open and less conservative than Trapattoni.
I reckon Trap barely listns to Tardelli if he has made his mind up on something

[cornflakes]

Bring back Jack!

[Stuttgart88]

I'd prefer the continuity of Tardelli being appointed.In principle yes, I'd agree, as long as some of the obvious faults with Trap's tenure are rectified, such as communication (to players and prospective players, and external communication) and conservatism.

[SwanVsDalton]

Anyone else find it pretty odd the good press McCarthy gets? On paper his record is probably similar to someone like Gary Megson, and he certainly had no quick success with Ireland. Yet Mick's reputation is much higher despite all that, in the press and as a result with most fans. Any coincidence that he's a journalist's dream with all his hilarious quotes and gurning faces?

It helps he's about a billion times more likable too. Also I think McCarthy's teams, in general, play a better game than the muck Megson usually serves up.


In principle yes, I'd agree, as long as some of the obvious faults with Trap's tenure are rectified, such as communication (to players and prospective players, and external communication) and conservatism.

I'd imagine Tardelli, as the eyes and ears, would be better at building relationships and there'd be far less issues over scouting.

[tetsujin1979]

I'd prefer the continuity of Tardelli being appointed.
I'd be happy with this, and Brady as his assistant to help out with the communication issues

[jbyrne]

why would mick want to come back after the savage abuse he got from the Irish crowd v switzerland in 2002?
and this abuse came a few months after we narowly missed out on the wc 1/4 with him in charge. we dont deserve him back

[Stuttgart88]

Back to Venn diagrams again:

One circle represents Man United fans
One represents Cork folk (or even non-Dubs)
One represents traditional Fianna Fail voters
One represents the vocal "anti-Mick" camp post-Saipan

Would there be much overlap?

[geysir]

I don't think I could handle the last 5 minutes with Mick in charge.
Every manager has baggage, any amount is tolerated as long as the results come.
Tardelli would come with different issues.
Busby had issues, Ferguson has issues, Wenger is perfect though.

[Jicked]

It helps he's about a billion times more likable too. Also I think McCarthy's teams, in general, play a better game than the muck Megson usually serves up.

Agree on the Megson's football point, just picked him randomly as a journeyman yo-yo manager that Mick also is. Seems mad that how likable a manager is should influence who gets a job, but we all know it does. And how likeable a manager is boils down to how the press represent him nine times out of ten. And then consider the fact how p**sed off the press are with Trap for making their jobs so difficult at press conferences, making them look silly by going back on "hints" he gives them about team selection etc....

[Sullivinho]

I have a lot of time for Mick, respect the proverbial hell out of him actually, but I wouldn't consider him a dream appointment at this stage. Nor do I think it'd actually happen tbh.


Back to Venn diagrams again:

One circle represents Man United fans
One represents Cork folk (or even non-Dubs)
One represents traditional Fianna Fail voters
One represents the vocal "anti-Mick" camp post-Saipan

Would there be much overlap?

That intersection would be some l@nger zone!

[Stuttgart88]

Could Mick be more than a "journeyman yo-yo manager" with a transfer budget? Anyone know what Wolves' wage bill is compared to the other clubs in the bottom 10 in the EPL?

[Jicked]

Could Mick be more than a "journeyman yo-yo manager" with a transfer budget? Anyone know what Wolves' wage bill is compared to the other clubs in the bottom 10 in the EPL?

Personally, I wouldn't have thought so.

EDIT - erm, that Mick would be more than a bit of a journeyman that is, not sure about the budget situation

[Paddy Garcia]

... and the only real difference is central midfield.

In the beautiful game, matches are won and lost by the forwards and the margin is determined by the backs.

In our game matches are won and lost by the central midfieders.

That is why Mick qualified and the current bunch are still waiting to board a flight.

[The Fly]

Giovanni Trappatoni looking at payback for Ireland and Italy at Brazil 2014 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/642957-giovanni-trappatoni-looking-at-payback-for-ireland-and-italy-at-brazil-2014)

[paul_oshea]

Welcome back teh fly, is it a flying visit again?

Mick is a "cup" manager supreme feet hence why he is good at motivating for the big games. Thats why he gets Wolves beating the big teams and playing well, but cant beat the small teams. Thats why he got the big win games for Ireland too....

[The Fly]

Welcome back teh fly, is it a flying visit again?


I've just been quite busy lately, but I'll be back posting more regularly in a week or two.

[paul_oshea]

Good to hear, it will fly by for sure.

[Jicked]

Welcome back teh fly, is it a flying visit again?

Mick is a "cup" manager supreme feet hence why he is good at motivating for the big games. Thats why he gets Wolves beating the big teams and playing well, but cant beat the small teams. Thats why he got the big win games for Ireland too....

Netherlands at home. Were there many more in his six years? There was plenty of dropped points in places like Macedonia when he wasn't able to "motivate" the players for small games.

[Stuttgart88]

How many points did we get in that campaign? Wasn't it 24? That's a lot of cup finals.

[Duggie]

i dont know about tardelli, we might miss trap strict regime when he is gone. trap is a legend but tardelli hasnt ever cut it at the highest level of management, i dont know if he would bring us forward. maybe im mad but i wouldnt mind seeing dave o'leary getting a go at the job?

[Duggie]

actaually just seen he was sacked from his club in UAE or wherever it is, must read more into it......................

[TrapAPony]

Roberto Martinez.....

[BonnieShels]

It's been a gaping hole for about 7 years. We've been spoilt down the years with Giles, Brady, Keane, McGrath and others. Full back, especially left back, is a weak area too, but I think our forwards, wide players, first choice keepers, and centre-backs would be good enough to be competitive against most good teams if only we had a genuinlely top-class CM.

Fupp me, when you think about that CM lineage like that it's rather incredible! They really don't make them like they used to.


I think Mick could do a great job, although 1 goal leads appraoching 90 minutes could be too much for the heart.

It's not just with Mick that 1-0 leads in 90' are difficult to handle.
Let's not forget Kerr's macedonia against Israel.


As regards some of the talk of revisionism about Mick I think a lot of it has got to do with how things have gone since.
WC2002 started awfully as we all know. Now from that moment on who actually thought that we would perform the way we did in the end?

Holland's goal against Cameroon was a cracker. Keane's impossible angle goal against ze Germans. Mick's eyes incredulously popping out of his head. Breens goal against the Saudi's. Duff's celebration. The 2 penalties in the dying moment's against Spain. Ian Harte's miss. All in all when we take everything into consideration that was a great World Cup for us.
Mick should've left straight afterwards. It was this decision which sullied his memory initially as it seemed to vindicate Keane's position.

Since then he has consistenly gotten clubs promoted to the Premiership. Keeping them there has been the problem. If Wolves stay up this year, and I hope they do Mick's reputation will be safe.


For what it's worth, Tardelli or Coyle would be my next man in charge. But eh, let's worry about that when we lift the Coupe in Warsaw. Allez les Verts!

[Uncle_Joe]

Netherlands at home. Were there many more in his six years? There was plenty of dropped points in places like Macedonia when he wasn't able to "motivate" the players for small games.

Also beat Croatia and Yugolavia at home, but after that not many more. but then again with qualifiers you only get maybe one chance a year for a big win. I like MM and wouldnt mind him coming back but I do remember that for every Holland there was also an away performance to Croatia just around the corner

[Razors left peg]

scenario: wolves get relegated from prem...mick mccarthhy feels he should take a break from management after managing wolves for the best part of 6 years. roll on november and ireland lose in a playoff and fail 2 qualify for poland/ukraine. traps contract is over and 2 weeks later mick mccarthy is appointed inheriting the most promising irish squad in many years. i can envision him on the touchline in the maracana already ;)

So your dream is for Ireland to fail so we can appoint a failed premiership manager... genius!