The new Dáil

[culloty82]

While Fine Gael technically have a range of options - government with independents, Sinn Féin or external Fianna Fáil support, and some Labour TDs might consider it easier to grow the party in opposition, rather than government, a grand coalition now looks inevitable. FF could find themselves squeezed in opposition, up against SF, the ULA and independents, and could require two elections to challenge again. So, is this really the start of a new era, or will the country revert to the old order once further cutbacks take effect?

[superfrank]

It's refreshing that FF are finally being punished. That's been the best thing about the election. I'm surprised by the big FF names who are losing out, such as Hanafin, O'Rourke and Roche (possibly). The prospect of them cuddling up to SF in opposition delights me no end.

Personally, a FG-Lab coalition would be best. They'd have enough power to put proper change into effect. Sinn Féin would be too volatile as coalition partners. The odds of them pulling out over some FG rejection of their proposals would be high. I don't think FG could rely on the backing of Independents. A lot of them are looking for local change. I think that would compromise FG making any real advances.

[shantykelly]

i think that it'll proabably revert to type for the coalition partners - FG/Lab - and that SF will try to push to become the main voice of opposition, despite having less seats than FF. Fianna Fail's credibility is buggered I think for the short to mid-term future - all the next government have to do is keep pointing to the problems caused by FF. That should get them through about two thrids of a Dáil term at least before the real criticism starts.

[paudie]

It'll certainly be an interesting Dail, with Higgins, ross, Adams, Wallace, Flanagan on the opposition benches.

FF will find it hard to present themselves as leaders of the opposition when they agree with the IMF/EU deal. Even though SF have fewer seats they can sound more credible in opposing the government.

[legendz]

It'll be an interesting Dail alright. I think it's right FG and Labour go in together. Since '97 they have wanted to get back in power. They did a good job in the mid 90's. Hopefully they can do so again. Labour wanted to be voted in so FG would not be a single party government. They have got exactly what they wanted. It's rididculous of some Labour members to try and disrupt it now.
In the next election after this, FF might become a junior partner in goverment. Personally I don't ever want to see them near power.

[Macy]

It's perfectly reasonable for Labour members to oppose the deal - the last week Labour was saying no single party Government, the previous two weeks was attacking FG. Going in is short termism, even in the "National Interest", compared with the chance to be a potential leading Government party. Passed now anyway, so I guess it'll be down to someone having the chance to say "told you so" later on.

If The Week In Politics is anything to go by, FF are screwed. The only point they can make is about the election, not about policies (as at least initially the new Government are sticking to the EU/IMF deal). They're going to get buried by the opposition parties/ indo's that oppose the deal full stop. I think it's more accident than design, but it really hampers FF in opposition as much as the fact that they brought us where we are. O'Brien tied himself up in knots criticising the lack of timescale for stuff that FF sat on for years - he just came across as ridiculous talking about the Children's rights referendum that FF delayed as they wanted to deny the people democracy of the byelections.

[legendz]

Great to see the Dail sit today. FG/Lab did a decent job when last in power. Hopefully they'll do the same again.

[Neish]

Seriously people anyone who thinks this government will do anything of any major difference from the last is deluded. They have already started with excuses and they have not even started

[dahamsta]

It's a bit early to be so negative Neish. While FG are very similar to FF, if not even more right-wing, Labour are at least somewhat to the left of them and should have a bit of a moderating influence; they have too many seats in the house and the cabinet to be another PDs or Greens, or at least I hope so. And you can always join their party and fight from within, or join another and fight from without.

We need to engage more with politics in Ireland, not less.

[BonnieShels]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

If this government can even manage to get through an iota of the reform they promise then it will be a success.
Already Kenny in a week in the job has shown more gumption than that other goon. The thing that worries me is Labour's flakiness. I just hope Gilmore finds some political judgement somewhere and stays the course.
They all have in their hands the power to destroy FF forever. They should be given every opportunity and we should support them in this endeavour.

[Valentine]

I'm happy as long as Joan Burton isn't involved just to annoy the National Council of Women \o/

[mypost]

They have already started with excuses and they have not even started

:confused:

What's different? Already we've seen changes. The minibus* rather than the fleet of top of the range Mercs trundling up to meet the bill-signer for the Cabinet Seals, the Dail sitting this week, and the reduction of Ministers** heading off to far-flung locations to "promote" Ireland.

Cosmetic changes admittedly, but it's a start and long term, there are a number of radical substantial changes coming up, that FF didn't and/or wouldn't consider while in power.

*The TD's looked like a bunch of footballers coming off a team bus, when they got to the bill-signers house, instead of the country's cabinet responsible for very important decisions that affect everyone in the country.

**While everyone is happy that the amount of Ministers off to flog us on the state holiday is reduced, I've never seen Merkel, Sarkosy, or the rest criss-crossing the globe on their national day, and I don't think ours should either.

[Macy]

*The TD's looked like a bunch of footballers players coming off a team bus, when they got to the bill-signers house, instead of the country's cabinet responsible for very important decisions that affect everyone in the country.
That was totally optics - it actually cost more as there was a fleet of mercs sat around doing nothing!


**While everyone is happy that the amount of Ministers off to flog us on the state holiday is reduced, I've never seen Merkel, Sarkosy, or the rest criss-crossing the globe on their national day, and I don't think ours should either.
Because they don't get the access, or above usual access - we're in the unique position that our diaspora is an important voting block in many countries. Merkel and Sarkosy can pretty much get access when they want.

[mypost]

That was totally optics - it actually cost more as there was a fleet of mercs sat around doing nothing!

Maybe, but there would be more outrage if they were used.


Because they don't get the access, or above usual access - we're in the unique position that our diaspora is an important voting block in many countries. Merkel and Sarkosy can pretty much get access when they want.

Our Government and Ministers are in Brussels, Strasbourg, Luxembourg or on any junket you think of at the drop of a hat, to win more friends and influence people 12 months of the year, costing us a fortune in travel expenses and accommodation. The least they should do is stay here for the national holiday. Is one day a year too much for them?

The ironic thing is that, while half the world wants to be Irish or in Ireland on March 17 every year, our government wants to be as far away from us as possible.

[pineapple stu]

What would you expect them to achieve if they stayed here for Paddy's Day?

The ironic thing about St Patrick's Day is that - in its current format of have lots of drink and parties to celebrate Ireland - it's a foreign invention. In Ireland up until the 1970s, it was a religious feast day with no drink allowed. Abroad, it's the day when everyone with Irish roots - or "roots" - gets reminiscent about the auld sod, and celebrates what they've been forced to leave behind. The Dublin parade, for example, dates from 1931, whereas the one in New York dates from 1762. In Ireland, we've only really tapped into this in the last 15 years (the first St Patrick's Day Fesvival was in 1996) as there's tourist income to be had.

So basically, St Patrick's Day the festival is all about the emigrants, not about those currently in the country. If the ministers can go abroad and try to tap into the sentimentality and secure some business deals for the country, it makes perfect sense. Our national day is one of the most widely celebrated in the world - ahead even of Independence Day, arguably - and so you really can't compare our situation to Germany or France.

(For more on St Patrick's Day, read Our Man in Hibernia by Charlie Connelly. Or wikipedia)

[mypost]

What would you expect them to achieve if they stayed here for Paddy's Day?
If the ministers can go abroad and try to tap into the sentimentality and secure some business deals for the country, it makes perfect sense. Our national day is one of the most widely celebrated in the world - ahead even of Independence Day, arguably - and so you really can't compare our situation to Germany or France.

I am sceptical on exactly how many business deals are done on such a day. Multinationals come here mainly because of our (under threat) corp tax rate and our accessibility to Europe, not on whether the Minister for Sport showed up in some far flung backwater on Paddy's Day. I see it as another expensive foreign junket and photo op for Ministers.

Even minus the financial aspect, I believe they should be here on principle on the day, as other Presidents and PM's are in their countries. The French, German, American, and Russian national holidays (to name a few) are highly publicised, and much celebrated. All their leaders are at home on the day, and so should ours be. There's just 8 of them this year, but it's still 8 too many imo.

[pineapple stu]

I've already told you our national day is unlike almost any other in the world, so the comparison with other national leaders is irrelevant.

I think it's quite racist to describe India as a "far-flung backwater"; what are we exactly?

Who do you think promotes our corporation tax rate and skilled workforce around the world? Do you think companies just open the Yellow Pages and ring the operator for Ireland?

And if our TDs can help tap into a foreign celebration of Ireland and thereby encourage the idea of tourism here, is that not a good thing?

And again, I'll ask the question - what difference would it make if the TDs stayed here for the holiday? "Principle" is a complete cop-out of a reason.

[mypost]

Who mentioned India?

Junketeers, and there are many of them. JOD showed us the extent he was prepared to go to promote Ireland. 5-star hotels, 3-figure meals, rocketing expenses, the works. And he's only one of them. That's what you're advocating on Thursday, in case someone thinks they might invest a fiver in the country.

Principle is not a copout, our PM should be seen to be here. That's what happens everywhere else, regardless how widely it's celebrated.

[pineapple stu]

You mentioned our sports minister going to a far-flung backwater. Our sports minister is Leo Varadkar, who's going to India for the holiday.

"Principle" is a way of you avoiding the points that have been made. So again - what good would the ministers do here, and why shouldn't they tap into the largest foreign celebration of Ireland to promote the country?

[mypost]

Yes I did mention the Sports Minister. I didn't refer to any given country, and forgot that he was going there. But the principle still applies. He along with the rest of them should be here, saving the state travel, accommodation, and other expenses. There's plenty of trips and weeks in the year for Ministers and Diplomatic Officials to go abroad to drum up business. Paddy's Day should be sacrosanct, and politicians should celebrate it here, as is done elsewhere on national holidays. In the wider world, 17 March is a day like most others.

[pineapple stu]

You reckon our national day should be sacrosanct, yet you see fit to refer to it as Paddy's Day?

You reckon spending money to bring in more money is bad?

You are completely clueless, you know that?

[Dodge]

St patrick's day is the one day of the year that most people in the worldwide get exposed to Ireland in a positive light. Absolutely our ministers should be going abroad to try and grease as many wheels as possible. No one despises Varadker more than me, but the Indian 'market' is developing at a faster pace than anywhere else in the world. Ireland is targetting Indian students, and if he can help advertise this on his visit, then thats a far better use of his time and our money than to have them sitting on their hole on the national holiday

After your 'Foreign Affairs minister doesn't matter' comments pre election, I really don't think you have a clue how the world of International politics works mypost

[Eminence Grise]

First off, well done, PS, for voicing one of my absolute hates: referring to the national holiday as Paddy’s Day. I’ve never heard a Scot, Welshman or Englishman refer to Andy, Dave or Georgieboy. It makes me cringe whenever I hear it.

I’m all for ministers travelling abroad on St Patrick’s Day. I just wish that the optics of saving taxpayers’ money didn’t mean we’re cutting the number of trips. I’d like to see all bar one or two ministers going, providing they took large self-funded delegations including chambers of commerce, IBEC, SFA, IDA, Enterprise Ireland, enterprise and leader boards, third level institutions and their innovation/campus companies etc etc. Ministers don’t bring back jobs and investment after a 24 hour flying visit – but the publicity their visits get, and the access they get to their counterparts and the business community is where results come from.

As for attracting Indian students, just 200 students in every state-funded IT and university (roughly 20) paying approximately 12k in fees, and spending the same amount from home funds is almost €100,000,000. And that’s before looking at China, Russia, the USA...

[mypost]

You reckon our national day should be sacrosanct, yet you see fit to refer to it as Paddy's Day?

You know the point I was making.


You reckon spending money to bring in more money is bad?

Oh it's spending money alright. Money we don't have, and are unlikely to get back.


St patrick's day is the one day of the year that most people in the worldwide get exposed to Ireland in a positive light. Absolutely our ministers should be going abroad to try and grease as many wheels as possible. Ireland is targetting Indian students, and if he can help advertise this on his visit, then thats a far better use of his time and our money than to have them sitting on their hole on the national holiday

I've already said why most people move and invest here. Those reasons still stand.

[dahamsta]

The return on the sums of money spent going to America, Japan, Australia, etc on the day has been minimal.

Please provide evidence for this statement. A single shred will suffice.

[mypost]

Multinationals have been moving out of and avoiding Ireland in recent years, as it's too expensive to do business. The volatile economic climate is further deterrent to those wishing to invest here now. International Credit Downgrades are ongoing, while unemployment remains static.

Our corpo tax rate "red lined" in the Lisbon Treaty remember, is now on the table. If that rises on top of the above reasons, they can visit 8 or 80 countries tomorrow, but there will always be more attractive options on the table for investors.

Tomorrow is our national holiday. Most of Ireland Inc. here is shut. It's supposed to be a celebration of our heritage and culture, a break from the news of banks and bondholders, not a day for politicos to enjoy toasts and run up vast expenses on us around the globe. The Dail sits for barely 100 days a year, so there are more than enough other days available to attract multinationals still willing to take a punt on us.

[Dodge]

As for your recent comments about the importance of our Minister of Defence, it is no longer a stand alone cabinet post, but shared with Justice and Equality, indicating how important the Defence portfolio has become in the government's eyes.

Go on then, show me where I said defence was important

[mypost]

It isn't there. I compared the FA job to the Defence Ministry during the Minister for Foreign Affairs row. Post edited.

[dahamsta]

mypost, I know your grasp of debate is childish at best, so for your own reference, what appears in the post above isn't evidence, it's opinion. Please provide evidence or retract your statement.

[mypost]

I've retracted the statement, as there are not sufficient links to support it. I still believe though that Kenny and co, should be here today to celebrate with the nation. Tomorrow, we can stop celebrating and normal life resumes.

[pineapple stu]

I've retracted the statement, as there are not sufficient links to support it.
Just for the sake of accuracy, you haven't provided a single link to support it. One was all that was asked for.

[dahamsta]

"Paddy's" Day discussion split here (http://foot.ie/threads/148813-quot-Paddy-s-quot-Day).

[peadar1987]

Some interesting points raised here about Ireland's economy. We're not a country blessed with huge amounts of natural resources, or a large manufacturing base. If we're to remain (or return to being) a prosperous nation, we need to focus on the things that we have. A highly-educated workforce is one of those things (for the moment at least, until all the graduates leave). Investing in our education system, especially at third level, and marketing it worldwide, is something that should be an absolute top priority for the government

[Macy]

We're not a country blessed with huge amounts of natural resources
Just on a point of order, we do have significant natural resources, and potential natural resources - "we" simply gave them away for sod all, with little prospect of return, and with no guarantee of supply.

[peadar1987]

Just on a point of order, we do have significant natural resources, and potential natural resources - "we" simply gave them away for sod all, with little prospect of return, and with no guarantee of supply.


Point taken. What I should have said was traditional natural resources, such as coal, iron ore, rare earth metals and the like. We do have the lead-zinc deposits, limited oil, and natural gas, as well as prime farmland, but we don't have a large manufacturing sector built upn either these, or imported raw materials, like the UK, France, or Germany do.