Central Contracts

[peadar1987]

These were brought up in another thread.

How would they work if brought in in the League of Ireland, and what would be the legality of them with regard to the EU?

[Spudulika]

Legally they'd work, the players would be employed by a company (the FAI for example) and there would be set guidelines on salaries etc. No club would hire players they couldn't afford and funds received from transfers out of the league would go centrally with a chunk to the selling club and the rest divided for different purposes. In addition taxes would be paid centrally (from source) and a salary cap would be perfectly permitted under company rules/regulations. It means that clubs would be tightly regulated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer This is an obvious path (scroll down to organization)

It would and could and should work in Ireland, but it's rarely that turkeys vote for Christmas. There are too many egos and grubbers grabbing small change to let it live.

[Jofspring]

To be honest I just wouldn't trust the people at the top currently running the FAI with that much power. With other people at the top it could work but not anytime soon.

[legendz]

I wouldn't trust them with that power either. At the end of the day clubs should be capable to run their own financial affairs. If they can't/don't they will go bust. It is in clubs best interests that they do not go above spending 65% on player wages.
Hopefully Shamrock Rovers and Sligo Rovers can do their bit this season to keep stories on the what's happening on the field of play. Most of the talk going into the new season should be on both of these clubs after the great day that was the FAI Cup Final 2010, a great show advertisement for the domestic game.
Also with the licences handed out, credit should go to Cobh, Carlow, Tralee and Fanad Utd who are putting every effort to be part of the LoI. If more regions put put in this effort, the game will be in a stronger position in this country.

[peadar1987]

So basically the players sign a contract with the MLS, and then the individual clubs "rent" them, for the cost of the wages?

I like the sound of that, and it sounds ideal for the LOI. Of course, the FAI aren't doing much to convince people that they can be trusted with holding all the contracts. I can only imagine the havoc they would have wreaked on Limerick's squad for this whole legal action thing!

[legendz]

Let's see how both Shamrock Rovers and Sligo Rovers get on. They seem to be going about their business ok, though I guess we have hoped for this before. Hopefully with these clubs, we've turned a corner where clubs are being more sensible about their finances. I hope their finances are sound, that they are successful and that it will be an example for all other clubs in how to run a football club both on and off the field.

[bluewhitearmy]

So basically the players sign a contract with the MLS, and then the individual clubs "rent" them, for the cost of the wages?

I like the sound of that, and it sounds ideal for the LOI. Of course, the FAI aren't doing much to convince people that they can be trusted with holding all the contracts. I can only imagine the havoc they would have wreaked on Limerick's squad for this whole legal action thing!

This is exactly what i was thinking.

[Spudulika]

Peadar and BWA, of course trust in the FAI would be difficult, however it doesn't have to be the FAI who look after the central contracts. Of course we'd like to think they can behave like the IRFU (who also need a good kickstart at times), but a commercial entity can be set up to run the league. Now this goes against every anti-monopoly bone in my bone, though it would almost mean having a closed league akin to what it is at present - teams applying for licences etc. However there is a way around it, you have the top 2 leagues with 12 and 12 clubs, below that you don't have reserve teams, you have distinct farm clubs or feeder teams (though there would be under 18 and 20 leagues). In North American sports it works well, though there is no upward movement (normally). Instead you have distinct tiers of leagues from Major down through AAA, AA, A and Minor A leagues. And therein lies the rub.

Can anybody see the LSL, MSL or any other league allowing reconfiguration and realignment which would cost them their place at the FAI trough? Personally I can't, they have a certain amount of power that is milked and plamased by JD and his minions, change would mean change of thinking and a new approach, this would scare the life out of most people we know involved in Junior football.

So ultimately contracts won't work from the ground up, top down. Though it is a fantastic idea in many senses, it will fall into the realm of having a proper pyramid structure, All-Ireland league and financial sensibility as concepts that have no place in LOI. (Sorry to be so negative, it's the half bottle of red leftover from Monday that didn't go down well last night).

[legendz]

So ultimately contracts won't work from the ground up, top down. Though it is a fantastic idea in many senses, it will fall into the realm of having a proper pyramid structure, All-Ireland league and financial sensibility as concepts that have no place in LOI. (Sorry to be so negative, it's the half bottle of red leftover from Monday that didn't go down well last night).

Agreed, this is the way it is and it's not likely to change. At least the league isn't an entirely closed league and looks set to remain so with the proposed Reserve League.

[peadar1987]

Peadar and BWA, of course trust in the FAI would be difficult, however it doesn't have to be the FAI who look after the central contracts. Of course we'd like to think they can behave like the IRFU (who also need a good kickstart at times), but a commercial entity can be set up to run the league. Now this goes against every anti-monopoly bone in my bone, though it would almost mean having a closed league akin to what it is at present - teams applying for licences etc. However there is a way around it, you have the top 2 leagues with 12 and 12 clubs, below that you don't have reserve teams, you have distinct farm clubs or feeder teams (though there would be under 18 and 20 leagues). In North American sports it works well, though there is no upward movement (normally). Instead you have distinct tiers of leagues from Major down through AAA, AA, A and Minor A leagues. And therein lies the rub.

Can anybody see the LSL, MSL or any other league allowing reconfiguration and realignment which would cost them their place at the FAI trough? Personally I can't, they have a certain amount of power that is milked and plamased by JD and his minions, change would mean change of thinking and a new approach, this would scare the life out of most people we know involved in Junior football.

So ultimately contracts won't work from the ground up, top down. Though it is a fantastic idea in many senses, it will fall into the realm of having a proper pyramid structure, All-Ireland league and financial sensibility as concepts that have no place in LOI. (Sorry to be so negative, it's the half bottle of red leftover from Monday that didn't go down well last night).


I know absolutely zilch about business, could the organising authority be set up as some sort of charitable foundation idea, so they're not allowed to turn a profit? And would the LOI really need the junior clubs to go along with this for it to happen? Probably the best way to ever get them on board for some sort of integrated system is to make the LOI as strong as possible in its own right. If we can ever get to the situation where LOI clubs are living comfortably and sustainably off their matchday and sponsorship income, I think a lot of junior clubs are going to want in.

[pineapple stu]

These were brought up in another thread.

How would they work if brought in in the League of Ireland
What would be the benefits of central contracts? Or what would they be trying to achieve?

[peadar1987]

What would be the benefits of central contracts? Or what would they be trying to achieve?

You tell me. Finding out was the whole point of starting the thread

[pineapple stu]

Ah, ok. I can't see any point, tbh. Certainly not as long as the FAI think Bohs are in ok nick for a licence. Out of the frying pan and into the fire and all that. But yeah, see where the thread goes.

[osarusan]

Aren't central contracts only used (and useful) when the players being awarded the contracts are internationals who the national association need available for international games? That seems to be how it works in rugby and cricket anyway. I've never seen it in football, and LOI players certainly aren't required for Irish national duty.

I can't see anything in it for the FAI whatsoever.

[peadar1987]

Aren't central contracts only used (and useful) when the players being awarded the contracts are internationals who the national association need available for international games? That seems to be how it works in rugby and cricket anyway. I've never seen it in football, and LOI players certainly aren't required for Irish national duty.

I can't see anything in it for the FAI whatsoever.


I think the major advantage for a league like the LOI is that it would allow greater central control by the central authority. Of course, the major disadvantage for a league like the LOI is that it would allow greater central control by the central authority!

One other advantage I can think of is that a larger body would have more financial clout, and would be able to offer players longer contracts, therefore pushing up transfer fees, at least to foreign clubs. To what degree this effect would actually be seen is debatable.

[SwanVsDalton]

I've never seen it in football, and LOI players certainly aren't required for Irish national duty.

MLS use them, though their system is so drastically different it's barely worth comparison.

[SkStu]

there is a lot that could be gained by adopting the way american sports are adminstered but, again, the vested interests in Irish football mean theres a snowballs chance in hell of that ever happening!

[Lim till i die]

Can anyone explain in 500 words or less exactly how the MLS system works?

Tried in on fm one time: 5th draft pick, 9th draft pick, WTF, exit game.

[SkStu]

Can anyone explain in 500 words or less exactly how the MLS system works?

that is literally impossible.

here are some links though that i have found informative.

http://www.bagsynotin.net/2010/12/the-2011-mls-superdraft/

http://soccerlens.com/how-the-mls-system-works/6235/ (older but gives good overview)



Tried in on fm one time: 5th draft pick, 9th draft pick, WTF, exit game.

:pill: :D

[peadar1987]

Is there a way it could be done without a draft?

[SkStu]

i think the draft is essential to my "vision" (sorry) but could easily be done in the form of the FAI academy graduates or academy affiliated players/clubs being eligible for the League draft thus allowing those "nurseries" who purely want to opt out - and selfishly protect their own interests - that opportunity. It would keep so many of the good players in the game here longer and would be immensely beneficial to league clubs if it was done properly. Again, i dont think it would ever happen. And would require a huge level of commercial commitment from the FAI and others to make the prospect of joining Mervue on draft an attractive one.

Centralised contracts dont necessarily require a draft system if you think about it though. But the effect of just centralised contracts is that the FAI administers the contracts instead of the club. Not sure if there are any other benefits...!

Just some thoughts.

[SwanVsDalton]

Is there a way it could be done without a draft?

Maybe there could be a system where clubs seek to sign a player but the FAI handles contract negotiation, signs them, then sends the player to the club.

But it would depend on what extend this 'central contracts' premise was implemented. I can't see a way in which you could have central contracts but clubs could retain any kind of autonomy in playing budgets. Essentially the FAI would be signing the players and distributing them. Without a draft, whatever distribution they make would face accusations of bias.

Also the whole thing is clearly a total brain melt...

[SwanVsDalton]

Centralised contracts dont necessarily require a draft system if you think about it though. But the effect of just centralised contracts is that the FAI administers the contracts instead of the club. Not sure if there are any other benefits...!

If the FAI were administering these central contracts, how would they distribute players without a draft? If clubs came to them and said "I want to sign player x", the FAI can sign them and then give to the club...but what if five LOI clubs want to sign the same player. It'll then just come down to who can afford him. And isn't that just the same as it is now, just with a more FAI input/looking over shoulders?

[SkStu]

yep - thats exactly the point i was trying to make!

[endabob1]

The idea of a centre of excellence where the players are centraly conracted to the FAI but essentially "loaned" out to clubs by way of a draft system seems sensible for emerging talent;
The FAI get to control the coaching and development of the players which in turn shold have a profoundly positive impact un underage sides.
The Clubs get the benefit of a players whose talents & wages may have previously been out of reach.
The players get the best of both worlds in the sense that they get competitive football from the clubs but proper development from the FAI.

The only plus for more established players being on a central contract is that you avoid a bohs situation. You would think that the FAI would be keen to avoid that but essentially they would be the ones carrying all the risk. I can't see that ever happening unless there's a platinum one type ground zero proposal from an independent organisation.

[SwanVsDalton]

yep - thats exactly the point i was trying to make!

Oh right on then...draft talk iz confuzion.

[Spudulika]

To make the system, with a draft and central contracts, would mean that a) there would be one league, b) all players are signed over to the centralised body, c) a feeder league system would have to be in effect. A draft would actually help remove the stress placed on clubs to maintain teams for licencing etc. The draft would be quite straightforward. Players have 2 years of eligibility (17 and 18 years old) for the main draft. They register and then the bottom club from the previous season gets the pick of the best player, the final pick in the first round goes to the previous seasons champions. Clubs, of course, can trade picks, though with a salary cap in place no club can go ott. So if it was Shelbourne finishing bottom of the pile (just supposing) then it means they get the first pick. If they don't want to pick him up, they can trade their first pick to the previous seasons champions, let's say Dundalk, and they pay Shels xeuros and/or a draft pick and/or a current player.

Players will go for it to a degree, though it means the removal of "bonuses". It would lift the burden off clubs and they would be free to concentrate on affordable policies and with a good regulatory system there would be fewer explosions of clubs.

Ultimately it would mean young players in Ireland have a chance to go into a draft to play for a local league club, get paid securely and their own development club gets a set fee (plus sell on). In addition there would be a supplementary draft for undrafted players or players who've come back from the UK or who didn't take part initially, so that they have a second chance.

Each club is only responsible for an under-18 and 20 side - as it stands how many clubs under-age set ups actually connect with the senior section?

Peadar, a not for profit can run it, though a commercial entity is better, mainly because they can then trade properly and carry commercial clout. I still think the FAI and clubs would hate it, they'd be so afraid of what could happen and that they'd be on a more even playing field.

Oh, one addition would be a superleague - AAA minor - could be set up just under the LOI where farm teams could play, clubs like Phoenix etc would be loaned players as well as having their usual contingent of players.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe there could be a system where clubs seek to sign a player but the FAI handles contract negotiation, signs them, then sends the player to the club.
In addition to the problems you mention, you're assuming the FAI have and use proper financial info. It's been shown time and again just how easy it is to pull the wool over the FAI's eyes with regards to predicted crowds and income, or agreements to pay players.

Also, are central contracts used anywhere in Europe, for example? Or is it just the US, Australia and those kind of franchise leagues? If we're looking at the exception rather than the norm, there should be a good reason for diverging (and not just "The current system isn't working")

[Spudulika]

In addition to the problems you mention, you're assuming the FAI have and use proper financial info. It's been shown time and again just how easy it is to pull the wool over the FAI's eyes with regards to predicted crowds and income, or agreements to pay players.

Also, are central contracts used anywhere in Europe, for example? Or is it just the US, Australia and those kind of franchise leagues? If we're looking at the exception rather than the norm, there should be a good reason for diverging (and not just "The current system isn't working")

In football now, in other sports yes. They word because the clubs want them to and they're worked in such a way to suit the more European mentality - links with local authority, member owned (partially) clubs and corporate responsibility.

What would be the reason for change? That's a better question to ask that a discussion on it.

Corporate responsibility
Financial security and responsibility
Healthier environment for investment and sponsorship
Better development ladder for young players
Security of payment for players and staff
Commitment to improvement of facilities (ok, open to question)
Focused promotion and marketing
Better/separate negotiation body for media rights
Salary Cap

There are lots more I'm sure, but as a start they are some. I would also say concentration on education of young players - via scholarships etc.

[Schumi]

In football no, in other sports yes.

What sports? The only kind of central contracting system I know of is in rugby, but it's a different idea than what''s being discussed here. Do the European basketball or handball leagues do this?

[peadar1987]

If it was ever going to work in the LOI, it would have to be done without a draft, I think. Like the thread I posted on affiliating junior clubs to the LOI, you'd need the support of the junior clubs to do it. And I can't see any junior clubs going for having their best players poached by the LOI.

Also, the best player at underage level is hardly likely to want to go to Fanad United or Carlow, especially if they're from Tralee.

I'm sure there's some way of organising it so that the clubs can sign the players they want, but without the recklessness that would come if they felt they weren't spending their own money.

[SkStu]

If it was ever going to work in the LOI, it would have to be done without a draft, I think. Like the thread I posted on affiliating junior clubs to the LOI, you'd need the support of the junior clubs to do it. And I can't see any junior clubs going for having their best players poached by the LOI..

no, i think it could easily be done with a draft as i have outlined above. The clubs or players in the clubs can choose to affiliate with the FAI and the FAI runs the academy. Each year 100 players are accepted from affiliated clubs and graduate from the academy at 17/18 and are drafted by LOI clubs. As part of this, each club can have an education deal with local 3rd level institutions to ensure that players receive an education to fall back on as well as pro or semi pro football.

Again, i know it is all idealistic but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.


Also, the best player at underage level is hardly likely to want to go to Fanad United or Carlow, especially if they're from Tralee..

this, in my opinion, would be the biggest problem. Hence the need for significant commercial incentives/investment and/or attractive education schemes.

[Schumi]

The league is too small for a draft system to work. Take an 18-year-old from Dublin who gets drafted to Finn Harps, several hours travel away from his family and friends for a wage of €150 a week. How does this make any sense for him to take the contract? It's fine for big sports where the clubs will be offering big wages where it's worth moving halfway across the country but there's not enough money in the LOI.

[Mr A]

The league is too small for a draft system to work. Take an 18-year-old from Dublin who gets drafted to Finn Harps, several hours travel away from his family and friends for a wage of €150 a week. How does this make any sense for him to take the contract? It's fine for big sports where the clubs will be offering big wages where it's worth moving halfway across the country but there's not enough money in the LOI.

Whinging little bugger should be proud to get the opportunity.

[John83]

Whinging little bugger should be proud to get the opportunity.
Yeah, but imagine an 18-year-old from Donegal town who gets drafted to Waterford, several hours travel away from his family and friends for a wage of €150 a week. How does this make any sense for him to take the contract? Terrible, right?

[Mr A]

Of course. Screwing over people to benefit the Harps is fine and morally justifiable, but otherwise it shouldn't happen and is a bloody outrage.

[Schumi]

Whinging little bugger should be proud to get the opportunity.
Sorry Harps was a bad example, anyone'd be happy to play for them for free. I should have said Derry.

[Dodge]

Simple option is to make the league Dublin only.

Below that we can have an A pyrimid for the country teams, with the winner fo the Pyrimid playing off in the Aviva with the last team in the in the League to see who gets to play in the Dublin Super League. 18 year players from outside Dublin can all live in the one big dorm room. RTE can do a fly on the wall reality show called, "young, dumb and full of fancy footballing tricks"

[John83]

Simple option is to make the league Dublin only.

Below that we can have an A pyrimid for the country teams, with the winner fo the Pyrimid playing off in the Aviva with the last team in the in the League to see who gets to play in the Dublin Super League. 18 year players from outside Dublin can all live in the one big dorm room. RTE can do a fly on the wall reality show called, "young, dumb and full of fancy footballing tricks"
Not a bad idea. Might even work if UCD can sign Justin Bieber.

[Mr A]

Not a bad idea. Might even work if UCD can sign Justin Bieber.

Doubt he's much of a footballer. I heard he had syphilis as well.

[SkStu]

Doubt he's much of a footballer. I heard he had syphilis as well.

how did he get rid of it?

Just wondering, like...

[peadar1987]

how did he get rid of it?

Just wondering, like...

Mercury.

[Spudulika]

What sports? The only kind of central contracting system I know of is in rugby, but it's a different idea than what''s being discussed here. Do the European basketball or handball leagues do this?

Ice hockey, volleyball, (the two you mentioned in certain countries), field hockey (certain countries) and beach volleyball.

It can all work, players will get security of employment, they'll get to play professionally and most importantly the league will be vibrant. However.....I cannot see the FAI or LOI or clubs in general looking to make it happen. It's too positive, too sensible and too many snouts will be lifted out of the trough! But instead of discussing the minutiae, such as did Hannah Montana pass along an STD to Justin Timberlake, we should try to figure out, as Pineapple Stu suggests, why? What good would a central contract system be?

(By the way leeches worked for Justin Bieber, at least that's what his boyfriend claimed on Expose).

[SkStu]

Mercury.

thats more likely to be how he got it, in fairness...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/09/freddie-mercury.jpg