Is Trapatonnis' position as manager now untenable re McCarthy

[Noelys Guitar]

James McCarthy has been called into the U21 squad for the Feb 9th game v Cyprus. This is a bad joke and surely brings into question not only Trapatonni's judgement but suggests he holds ridiculous grudges against certain players. With such a small pool of players to choose from we can't afford to be upsetting/demotting players like McCarthy. If this decision is not reversed then Trapatonni has to go.

[Razors left peg]

Ive gone from being one of Traps biggest supporters to wondering if you might be right Noely. The situation with McCarthy might be the final nail in the coffin for my respect for the man

[Noelys Guitar]

Ive gone from being one of Traps biggest supporters to wondering if you might be right Noely. The situation with McCarthy might be the final nail in the coffin for my respect for the man

I was also a big admirer Razor. But his recent decisions/tactics/selections are becoming ridiculous. We desperately need players like McCarthy and this is no way to treat very good player. The treatment of Andy Reid and now this. We don't have a conveyor belt of talented players. Trap has to be called on this.

[paul_oshea]

I don't think one thing can make a manager be up fir the sack noely that's just hyperbole.

That's not the case though here.

[boovidge]

bit of an overreaction but still...baffling. :confused:

[TrapAPony]

Haven't been convinced by Trap for a long time and as stated McCarthy's exclusion is bizarre.

[Razors left peg]

I was also a big admirer Razor. But his recent decisions/tactics/selections are becoming ridiculous. We desperately need players like McCarthy and this is no way to treat very good player. The treatment of Andy Reid and now this. We don't have a conveyor belt of talented players. Trap has to be called on this.

totally agree. We thought Paris might be the start of a bright new era after the type of football we played that night.I was excited about the campaign but we have gone backwards. I wasnt looking for a massive overhaul of the team because I thought we were good enough with some minor changes.McCarthy and Coleman have been probably our best 2 players in the Premiership this season and one of them not in the squad and the other one has already been told that he will be a sub and will only come on as a right back because thats where Trap thinks he is best, totally against everything we have seen of him so far.

It might have been an over reaction if this was the first time something like this hadnt happened already but it is starting to look way too similar to the Andy Reid situation.If Paul Green is good enough to be in the squad then a 10% fit James McCarthy should be

[TheBoss]

I think the majority of fans, from my perspective on the topic are losing faith in the manager, not only cause of tactics but of player selection, Trap in truth has never put the down strongest 11 players for a match and the more he keeps on doing this, the more the fans will lose confidence in him.

[Noelys Guitar]

I believe this is a very, very cynical ploy by Trapatonni. For whatever reason he has a grudge against McCarthy ala Andy Reid. But unlike the Reid situation he can't be seen (again) to totally exclude another player. The vagueness about McCarthy at the press conference the other day and now the inclusion in the u21 squad leads me to believe that Trap wants McCarthy to pull out. And maybe Stephen Ireland's account of what went on in his meeting with Trap is not now so unbelievable.

[Dunners]

Time to go

[Predator]

Storm in a teacup?

[AlaskaFox]

Storm in a teacup?

Definitely.

[shakermaker1982]

I lost faith last year. The grumbles have been there since the Russian game. A few of the posters I respect on here have also lost the faith (you can just tell by the tone of their posts without them saying flat out that the Trap might not necessarily be the best thing for us right now....) so I don't think it's a total knee jerk reaction.

The reliance on 4-4-2 when we are getting dicked in midfield drives me absolutely insane. I can see it, the crowd can see it but our management team?

Look we'll stumble along, finish second, get knocked out on away goals in the play offs and all shrug our shoulders and say well didn't we do well to get to a play off? Meanwhile McCarthy is sitting at home watching the game on tv whilst Paul Green/Andrews and Whelan are passing the ball sideways.

[Closed Account]

Firstly, I do think this thread is over the top. trapattoni won't lose his job anytime soon, and Ireland will have nothing to gain by sacking him.

But it does raise some interesting debate around the general malaise surrounding Trapattonis tenure at the moment. Hopefully this thread won't be resurrected after the Macedonia game for purposes of "I told you so!" Noely wouldn't do that. :rolleyes:

It's interesting that McCarthy is the straw that breaks the camels back for a lot of you. I'm not far behind ye mind, I just think its an over reaction, but one you are perfectly entitled to.

I remember when Trapattoni was mooted as a possible for the managers job and we were warned that we were going to get an ultra conservative manager who stuck to his tactics no matter what and often alienated some of his more talented players. How true those predictions were.

I think we are focusing too much on player selection or non selection as the case may be. We've performed well under Trap but its a largely held view that those performances, Paris particularly, were player driven rather than great managerial work. What needs to happen now, is for Senior Players, notably the ones coming to their last campaigns, need to step up and take responsibility. They risk the wrath of Giovanni, but so be it, they are playing for their country, not for Giovanni.

The most notable contrast between players who seem to have fallen out with Giovanni, and players who he loves, is their willingness to follow orders. Green, Andrews, Kilbane, Long, Vs A Reid, McCarthy etc. If Trap tells the full backs and midfielders to get the ball to the front two as quick as possible, and they don't do it, preferring to play a little football in between, Trap gives out ****. You've seen it yourself, him gesticulating on the sideline, making that arced loop arm movement "get it forward, get it forward". He doesn't trust us to hold on to the ball, the problem is, when he picks Green and Kilbane, I don't trust us either.

So we're in a catch 22, if we get rid of him now, we've no hope of qualifying, but if he keeps up his tactics, we've a minimal chance of qualifying. All we can hope is that the players stand up and take responsibility.

## Its probably better that he doesn't call up McCarthy, there's a real risk he'd coach the football out of him.


Including Long is a little bit unfair on him, but he's the sort of player he likes, will do the dirty work.

[SkStu]

i think my opinion on Trappatoni is well documented at this stage. I havent felt he is the appropriate manager for the last 18 months or so. That said he should only be fired once we do not qualify for 2012. If McCarthy switches allegiances in the meantime then he gets the boot imo.

[tetsujin1979]

A manager should only ever be sacked on the basis of results, never on the decision of selection, or non-selection, of a player. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

In any case, to start screaming "Trap out" or whatever, without suggesting a credible replacement reeks the worst of tabloid mob mentality

[Sullivinho]

Paul Green named in senior squad, McCarthy in the U21's. If my old man was making decisions like that I'd be on Google looking up 'senility'. McCarthy isn't some hot prospect ala Conor Clfford, he's the best midfielder we have performing in the premier league and should be an automatic squad selection. Our dissent counts for little though and I expect criticism from sports writers and the like (how many of them will actually notice?) to be negligible. Trap's position certainly won't become untenable because of it.

I'd also count myself among those who admired Trap but there are some facets of his modus operandi that are starting to grate.


I believe this is a very, very cynical ploy by Trapatonni. For whatever reason he has a grudge against McCarthy ala Andy Reid. But unlike the Reid situation he can't be seen (again) to totally exclude another player. The vagueness about McCarthy at the press conference the other day and now the inclusion in the u21 squad leads me to believe that Trap wants McCarthy to pull out. And maybe Stephen Ireland's account of what went on in his meeting with Trap is not now so unbelievable.

There's a certain degree of egotism about Trap, no doubt the result of being Giovanni Trapattoni and all that entails. The cynic in me did wonder if Coleman's non-appearance against Norway was Trap's response to the enthusiasm surrounding the player and the clamour to see him in action. I'd worry that he's prepared to put his stamp of authority above the good of the team. Punishing the likes of Reid and McCarthy would be a prime example, as would his rigid opinions on various players best positions (Coleman, Clark etc.) The unavailability of Stephen Ireland, that luxury playmaker slash incurable l@nger, sits well with his system but it's another concern that he may see McCarthy as similarly ill-fitting. I'd hate to think he's missing out because of his progressive tendencies and failure to fit the 'midfield grafter' mold. Which is not to say he doesn't cover ground and put in a tackle, to my eye he has a superb all-round game. But...Whelan, Andrews, Green, McCarthy: spot the odd one out.


A manager should only ever be sacked on the basis of results, never on the decision of selection, or non-selection, of a player. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

Agreed. That's what he'll ultimately be judged on.

[SwanVsDalton]

I don't think his selections are as endemically poor as others believe, not in terms of the squad at least. But the omission of McCarthy is worrying albeit a decision I'm accepting at face value for now. Wishful thinking to suppose his team selections could get more adventurous but that'd be my main gripe. Altogether I'm sticking to the fence until at least post Macedonia, things could get considerably worse or better after those games.

Even with qualification, I'd be surprised if this wasn't his final campaign.

[John83]

...But...Whelan, Andrews, Green, McCarthy: spot the odd one out...
Green. The other three can kick a ball. :p

[paul_oshea]

Ya and what have his results been we all know how poor France and Italy were they were found out in the last world cup.we got hammered at home in a competitive game Aw bad as any as i can remember 3-o.we couldn't beat a poor Slovakia on the night and some friendly results have been terrible.

[geysir]

Typical reaction from the usual suspects who (in their almost drunken rambles) miss the obvious point, which is, should Noel King get the boot for putting James' career in some jeopardy by calling him up to the u21 squad for a friggin' pothole ridden friendly?

[osarusan]

The games coming up are utterly unimportant games, and as such should be used for experimentation with new players and formations (though I doubt we'll see much of the latter). As long as Trapattoni does some experimentation, I'd not complain too much.

We may not know the full extent of communication between Wigan / McCarthy / Trapattoni. Maybe Trap had agreed to leave him out before he recovered completely. I do wonder why he wasn't added to the squad seeing as how he seems 100% again now.

I'd agree with Tetsujin in that a mananger should be judged by results, and even then, only by competitive results in my opinion. What happens in the Celtic Cup in terms of results is of little importance to me at least.

[Razors left peg]

The games coming up are utterly unimportant games, and as such should be used for experimentation with new players and formations (though I doubt we'll see much of the latter). As long as Trapattoni does some experimentation, I'd not complain too much.

We may not know the full extent of communication between Wigan / McCarthy / Trapattoni. Maybe Trap had agreed to leave him out before he recovered completely. I do wonder why he wasn't added to the squad seeing as how he seems 100% again now.

I'd agree with Tetsujin in that a mananger should be judged by results, and even then, only by competitive results in my opinion. What happens in the Celtic Cup in terms of results is of little importance to me at least.

If that was the case than surely Noel King would have been informed. And you are right, the results in the Celtic Cup mean absolutely nothing so it is the perfect time to have a look at something other than what we have already seen

[Serb]

Trappatoni is never going to get sacked due to the massive payout he would receive. If we don't qualify for Euro 2012, I would be very disappointed to see his contract renewed however. He came in at a real low for Irish football and his conservative tactics and his consistent squad selections were exactly what we needed at a time of turmoil and crisis. The team is stable now and has the players have the confidence that they lacked under Staunton, but I feel like now is the time to push on, start taking risks and introduce a bit of flair into the team. I wouldn't panic just yet, but we will know for sure over the coming squad selections if Trap is really willing to blood our youngsters or if there are silly politics going on behind the scenes.

As far as the results have gone, Trappatoni hasn't been much better that Staunton. His win ratio is similar (37% for Trap vs 35% for Steve), but where he has really been let down is the number of times that Ireland has surrendered a lead. It's the sit back and defend the one goal lead that works well for teams like Italy because they actually have good defenders and can let the opposition have the ball. In my opinion, we actually need to work much harder pressing opponents and trying to win the ball when we take the lead.

Examples of matches that I'm talking about:


Ireland v Bulgaria (surrender the lead with 16 minutes remaining)
Bulgaria v Ireland (lead held for 4 minutes)
Ireland v Italy (lead held for 3 minutes)
Cyprus v Ireland (lead held for 20 mins, went on to win)
Slovakia v Ireland (lead held for 20 minutes)

Out of those games, we only won one of the four I would expect us to win. Beating Italy would have been nice, and made for a tense final group game, but you couldn't be too disappointed with that one.

Though, like another poster said, whether we qualify or fail to qualify, I'd also expect this to be Trappatoni's final campaign.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good post there Serb.

Someone says we don't have a ready-made replacement, a risk, but would love to see Sean O'Driscoll given the chance.
Hughton & O'Neill rightly have PL 'delusions', so it won't be them yet unless yer Digicell man wants to offer more high wages, albeit in a recession?

[Dodge]

ha ha love this thread.

McCarthy is the combined progeny of Brady, Giles, McGrath and Maradona it seems

[CraftyToePoke]

McCarthy is the combined progeny of Brady, Giles, McGrath and Maradona it seems

And Fahey, dont omit Fahey !

[Yard of Pace]

ha ha love this thread.

McCarthy is the combined progeny of Brady, Giles, McGrath and Maradona it seems

Compared to Paul Green he's actually better than that.

[Noelys Guitar]

Typical reaction from the usual suspects who (in their almost drunken rambles) miss the obvious point, which is, should Noel King get the boot for putting James' career in some jeopardy by calling him up to the u21 squad for a friggin' pothole ridden friendly?

I'm sure King went ahead and picked McCarthy without the OK from Trapatonni. Its an insult to the player and to the fans. We are not a club side whereby the wayward player is sent to play with the youth team or completely frozen out like Andy Reid.. If Staunton had pulled stunts like that the Trap apologists would have crucified him. Trap has increased the pressure on the team by this decision (especially on those who start in central midfield against Macedonia). He is alienating large swathes of Irish supporters. And that is bad management.

[Noelys Guitar]

Compared to Paul Green he's actually better than that.
Agree. Now playing right back for Derby. I wonder if Trap knows that?

[irishfan86]

Agree. Now playing right back for Derby. I wonder if Trap knows that?

I think it was only for a game or two in an emergency circumstance, no?

[shakermaker1982]

I've always thought the Trap stood down at the end of this campaign. Have I got that wrong? I know it has never been announced officially but I've got that impression.

[jbyrne]

Ya and what have his results been we all know how poor France and Italy were they were found out in the last world cup.we got hammered at home in a competitive game Aw bad as any as i can remember 3-o.we couldn't beat a poor Slovakia on the night and some friendly results have been terrible.

france and italy contested the previous wc final and were not as poor as their world cup performances when we played them. who are we that we can consider only losing once to two football world superpowers over 4 matches a poor return? a bit of reality please. we were a complete shambles when trap took over, complete shambles.

re your comment on friendlies. we beat 3 teams that appeared in the wc and didnt do too bad over a 12 month period under trap

[LFCSixty/Eighty]

This is an absolute ridiculous decision. I'm sure Wigan would much prefer him to take small part in the welsh match in Dublin rather than traveling out to Cyprus for a game he will surely play 90 minutes in.

We should be very grateful that McCarthy seems to be level headed, because if we were dealing with a Stephen Ireland type individual this could have been the moment when he told Trap where to stick it.


I just pray that this will not happen.

[paul_oshea]

france and italy contested the previous wc final and were not as poor as their world cup performances when we played them. who are we that we can consider only losing once to two football world superpowers over 4 matches a poor return? a bit of reality please. we were a complete shambles when trap took over, complete shambles.

re your comment on friendlies. we beat 3 teams that appeared in the wc and didnt do too bad over a 12 month period under trap

I think my point holds up after serbs post, in fairness. Granted stuantons period in charge was thus far a 12 months or so longer. The stats hold up for themselves.

He has made us more competitive however, and we have lost less games, but has trap had better players at his disposal than Staunton, even if he did "find" them.

I don't care where france and italy were 5 years ago, italy were an ageing team, 3 years is a long time in football.

[Alf Honn]

I think it was only for a game or two in an emergency circumstance, no?

Right back alright..right back on the bench for last game v Forest.
Derby

01 Bywater
02 Brayford
05 Barker
06 Leacock yellow card
20 Addison
21 Moxey two yellow cards, red card
08 Savage yellow card (Bailey 55)
28 Davies
10 Commons (Davies 88)
12 Porter
27 Bueno yellow card
Substitutes


03 Roberts,
04 Green,
11 Pearson,
16 Bailey,
19 Cywka,
07 Davies

[jbyrne]

I think my point holds up after serbs post, in fairness. Granted stuantons period in charge was thus far a 12 months or so longer. The stats hold up for themselves.

He has made us more competitive however, and we have lost less games, but has trap had better players at his disposal than Staunton, even if he did "find" them.

I don't care where france and italy were 5 years ago, italy were an ageing team, 3 years is a long time in football.

dont need to go back 5 years. both qualified for euro 2008 and both had superb players regularly playing in the champions lge when we played them.

trap is entitled to pick who he wants. sure posters here have been having a pop at trap before for the non inclusion of the likes of garvan and mccann.... are they even playing for their clubs at the moment?

mccarthy is only back playing after a serious injury and hopefully will prove to be a great player for us but demanding his inclusion when hes only back from a long term injury is pushing it a bit.

[geysir]

McCarthy is much too valuable to be in the u21 friendly. The last time such a class player was asked to perform duties beneath his stature on some island location, putting his physical well being at high risk, we had Saipan.
King has to go, before the inevitable storm clouds gather.

[cornflakes]

Right back alright..right back on the bench for last game v Forest.
Derby

01 Bywater
02 Brayford
05 Barker
06 Leacock yellow card
20 Addison
21 Moxey two yellow cards, red card
08 Savage yellow card (Bailey 55)
28 Davies
10 Commons (Davies 88)
12 Porter
27 Bueno yellow card
Substitutes


03 Roberts,
04 Green,
11 Pearson,
16 Bailey,
19 Cywka,
07 Davies


Things are bad when Robbie Savage gets a game ahead of ya

[TrapAPony]

Things are bad when Robbie Savage gets a game ahead of ya

Before that he was right back in a 2-1 loss to Crawley Town in the FA Cup. Still good enough for the Irish squad/team though according to Trap.:(

[tetsujin1979]

Right back alright..right back on the bench for last game v Forest.
Derby
Substitutes


04 Green

to be fair, that was only the third game he's missed all season, and the first game he didn't start since October: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/ClubDetails?clubID=747

[Wolfie]

On the McCarthy issue - best not let this one specific issue get blown out of proportion. I think the thread title is a tad melodramatic.

McCarthy is undoubtedly a quality propect but he's still a novice at club level, never mind international level.

I think the McCarthy situation is more symptomatic of a wider issue of who fits the system and who is trusted to play within it.

That said, assuming McCarthy is fully fit, should he play against Wales? Yes.

Is his absence from the fixture effectively rendering Trapps post untenable? No.

There are other players who I'd like to see get a run against Wales.

While its disappointing that McCarthy won't feature, hopefully the fixture can still be utilised by giving some fringe players a run.

[OwlsFan]

You have to laugh really.

McCarthy - playing for one of the worst teams in the Premiership. Described as "a class act". What is he doing playing for Wigan if he is a class act? He's not a bad player and he may turn in to a class act but it's too early to describe him as such. Such hyperbole was also used About Andy Reid currently guesting for mighty Sheffield United or perhaps he has returned from that den of superstars.

There is about as much hope of Trap being sacked as Stan being the next Man U manager. Unless he goes without taking a cent of what is owed to him he is here until the end of his contract because the FAI is in difficult financial position.

Trap may not pick the best players we have or at least include them in the squad. However, if anyone thinks that we would do any better with our squad of mediocre Premiership/Championship players under a different manager, even with the likes of Reid, McCarthy, please name that person. I look at Scotland Wales and think "there but for the grace of God go we".

We have an unbeaten away record and his problems seem to be at hone. His system works well away with the talent we have. It doesn't at home. I am surprised he hasn't been able to work that out yet and perhaps use a different system/players for the home games.

We are still in with a chance of qualification. A play off last campaign was an excellent result and but for a certain handball etc etc we might have made it. Once the campaign is over, his position should be reviewed then. Changing horses in midstream is not a good idea.

For the moment, despite not picking the players we think he should pick, I will continue to support him and the team.

[Stuttgart88]

Ya and what have his results been we all know how poor France and Italy were they were found out in the last world cup.we got hammered at home in a competitive game Aw bad as any as i can remember 3-o.we couldn't beat a poor Slovakia on the night and some friendly results have been terrible.
Who beat us 3-0 at home in a competitive game?

That poor Slovakia team got to the WC last 16, something we'd kill for. It was harder to play a talented French team over 2 legs in November when they didn't have 3 weeks cooped up together abroad to implode. Not beating Italy wasn't Trap's fault - poor finishing and poor concentration caused that. I've got criticisms of Trap but I think he barely put a foot wrong in Slovakia. Keane had a stinker and unless the bad defensive organisation at the corner is Trap's fault (it could well have been) not beating Slovakia isn't a stick to beat him with. We had enough experienced players to have seen that game through. I maintain that we played well enough to win that game, we just didn't. I've seen many a team play worse than we did and win.

Trap doesn't seem to know enough about who our best players are / were, or what their attributes are. McShane should never have been picked at full back over Kevin Foley, Keogh should never have been played wide midfield and so on. This, and our tendency to cede initiative when ahead, is what bugs me most.

[jbyrne]

the last two posts..... some sense at last on this topic

[SkStu]

as i said earlier the biggest factor in Trappatonis continued employment should be his results and achievements. He has not overly excited on either count so far. But, despite all my criticisms, i think he should get until the end of this campaign to address this. If he doesnt, then he should go.

To all his apologists can i ask a hypothetical question - what would you think if McCarthy switched allegiance to Scotland as a result of his ommission from Traps squad? To anticipate the answer that we wouldnt want that type of person playing for us, leave that to one side and ask yourself if 5 minutes against Andorra would have been too much to ask for.

[tetsujin1979]

why not ask the same question about players like Shane Lowry and Jim O'Brien changing allegiances under Trap's reign?

[SwanVsDalton]

I'd be really miffed. But it doesn't play on mind - there's simply no evidence whatsoever it will happen.

I do think he should've been capped competitively by now but it's got nothing to do with a potential nationality switch.

[SkStu]

why not ask the same question about players like Shane Lowry and Jim O'Brien changing allegiances under Trap's reign?

well neither of those players were playing regular premiership football at 19 years of age and performing very well in a poor team, were they? Isnt there slightly more at risk?

[Stuttgart88]

I agree, no brainer to cap McCarthy. Calling him up for Wales wouldn't tie him, but I guess you're referring to his frustration being the reason for defection. I don't think the allure of playing for Scotland is that great right now tbh.

I'm not an apologist but think that some criticism here is English tabloid stuff. Some of Trap's blind spots are bewildering though.