If a new manager came in tomorrow...

[Noelys Guitar]

He would survey the group. Probably come to the conclusion (fairly quickly) that this is one of the worst (easiest) groups Ireland have ever been in. Look at the amount of Irish players starting in the Premiership and championship and doing well for their clubs. And think to himself I can still get this team over the line. Or better still Trap comes to this conclusion.

What would be the starting 11 against Wales.

Given (only if he moves club) to start in goal. If not then Westwood.

O'Shea Dunne St Ledger S. Hunt (yes. I would try Hunt at Left back for the Welsh game.)
Coleman Foley Wilson Duff
Doyle Long/Keane (I would only start Keane if he has moved club and is playing regulary)

[elroy]

Cant say I agree that this is one of the easiest groups Ireland have even been in. It lacks a stand out top class team admittedly but they're aint a lot of them about right now. Russia are a decent top seeds. Slovakia recently qualified for the WC, nothing special but decent team. Macedonia and Armenia are as tricky as you could have got from their respective seedings. Armenia in particular have built up a head of steam.

No way would i play S Hunt at left back, doesnt have the discipline to be a defender imo. But seeing as the game should be used as an experiment, it may be worth a try.

Alternatively, I would try JOSH left back with perhaps foley/coleman at right back.
In centre midfield, I would play McCarthy if fit alongside Wilson. I would also start Lawrence ahead of McGeady.

[Noelys Guitar]

The Slovakian team we played away was the worst 2nd seed team I have ever seen in any of our groups. All the way back to Touhy in charge. Russia lost at home to Slovakia. And Trap's comments after our home game against Russia did not inspire. He suggested that no matter what Irish team he put out we would have been beaten. Never like to hear that and I don't buy it. We appraoched that game the wrong way IMO. This is a very mediocre group.

[Sullivinho]

Given
Foley - Dunne - O'Shea - Ward
Coleman - Wilson - Whelan - Duff
Long - Doyle

Foley expected to be Finnan-esque at RB. Sledge penalised for poor form and inactivity. Ward finally gets his chance in Cunningham's unfortunate absence.

Coleman's progress can't be ignored. It's assumed McCarthy is unavailable, a reprieve for Whelan.

Long rewarded for good form, something Robbie desperately needs to find.

[christo]

Fair bit of experimentation going on there, more than likely Coleman will be the only one and then Gibson, Long, Foley, Fahey and possibly Ward will get a run, but would be very doubtful on Ward, particularly at left back. Would have Hunt, Duff and Lawerence all ahead of McGeady on either wing, McGeady has been "a promising" player for 6 years now and has done nothing but disappointed

I agree that this is by far the easiest group we could have gotten though, Russia probably the worst 1st seed in the draw.

edit: oh and I think we should get Clark declared if he is interested in playing for us

[Real Rover]

Given.
Foley. Dunne. O'Shea. Ward.
Coleman. Fahey. Wilson. Hunt.
Doyle. Long.

Assuming of course that McCarthy and Meyler are unavailable.

[Sullivinho]

but would be very doubtful on Ward, particularly at left back.

I'd have a doubt myself tbh but we've a shocking lack of options there without Cunningham.

[cornflakes]

eh christo clark has declared, he was in the last squad

[christo]

eh christo clark has declared, he was in the last squad

Aye but he hasn't got a cap yet so technically he could still get called up to England

[Stuttgart88]

No, I don't think so. By virtue of having sent a formal request to FIFA to change association I think he is tied now regardless of whether he's capped. I suspect the same holds for Maguire. Anyone concur?

[ifk101]

That's correct (if Clark and Maguire have formally requested to change associations).

[TrapAPony]

Given

Coleman Dunne Clark O'Shea

Duff Wilson Fahey McGeady

Keane Doyle

[christo]

Hmm ok, I thought they had to be capped.

I'd defo have Long way ahead of Stokes though especially given Longs recent great form and if he keeps it up for much longer than 6 games he could be quite a good player. Whereas Stokes has struggled to score for Celtic since his move there

[Charlie Darwin]

No, I don't think so. By virtue of having sent a formal request to FIFA to change association I think he is tied now regardless of whether he's capped. I suspect the same holds for Maguire. Anyone concur?
I am fairly sure it's caps-based. Bobby Zamora was called up to the full Trinidad & Tobago side and subsequently played for England.

[geysir]

I'd go along with that.
A player can request to change football associations only once.
But after a player's request has been granted, he is only recognised as being changed (by FIFA), when he has been capped competitively for his new country. As long as Clarke is not being capped by Ireland in a qualifier, he remains eligible for 2 countries.

[ifk101]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/01/24/fifastatuten2009_e.pdf

Article 18: Change of Association

"1. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
....... "

I don't know the ins and outs of Bobby Zamora's international allegiance but my understanding is that once you've formally switched associations, you cannot switch again.

[passinginterest]

If I come in as a new manager I'm going to want to see the core senior players and get my message across to them. In the Wales game I probably start 9 of Trap's favoured 11 as they have been the key squad memebers. I experiment a little in two problem positions, centre midfield and left back and introduce three young fringe players who may be pushing for a central role in my new squad. So the Wales lineup is;

Given (Westwood h/t)
Ward (90 mins at left back)
Dunne
St Ledger
O'Shea (Foley 60)

Duff (Coleman h/t)
Whelan (Fahey 60)
Clark
Hunt

Keane (Long h/t)
Doyle (Best 60)

That's assuming Meyler and McCarthy are injured.
I'd have Clifford and possibly O'Halloran in the squad for a look, I think that tkes me up to 19 players, probably call up a squad of 23 so would need 4 more, likely to be;
O'Dea
Stokes
Gibson
Lawrence

I've probably left out some obvious ones there too. Potentially there's also contoversial call up's for Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid. Paul Green, Kevin Kilbane, Marc Wison, Barry Maguire, Jon Walters on standby list.

Get slated in media for not having some of the above in original squad.
Dunphy has a rant.
It'a a terribly dull 0-0 draw but results improve and we win Euro 2012 beating England on penalties in the final. :D

[The Fly]

^ Did McGeady and yourself have a falling out?

[passinginterest]

^ Did McGeady and yourself have a falling out?

Cost too much to fly him in from Russia :)

I meant to add he was left out due to being out of season.

[geysir]

[url]
I don't know the ins and outs of Bobby Zamora's international allegiance but my understanding is that once you've formally switched associations, you cannot switch again.
You could easily understand it like that, but a formal switch is only formally completed, after the player has been capped for his new association. The Bobby Zamora example proves the point. The player can reverse his intent and revert back to his first association, if he has not been capped for his second association. That's what Zamora did.
Probably it would only take capping Clarke in a senior friendly or underage competitive game, to tie him to Ireland and not as I stated - a competitive game.

Personally I don't agree with capping players just to bind them to their choice. They should have enough desire until that time the manager caps them on merit. If they reverse their decision in the meantime, then so be it.

[ifk101]

You are assuming that Bobby Zamora proves the point as you do not know with 100% certainty that Zamora had formally requested to change association to Trinidad, that the switch had been granted by FIFA and that Zamora formally agreed to the switch.

[geysir]

My opinion is based on analysis, I am not preaching a belief - so being 100% certain or claiming 100% certainty is not a concern for me.
If you wish to hold on to your opinion, then fine, as the FIFA article does not spell it out clearly.
But when reports about Zamora have stood the test of time, we can value them as being accurate enough for opinions to be based upon.
We can value their accuracy when there is a complete absence of retraction or alternative version over a period of time. The reports are then on the way to becoming historical fact.
FIFA.com (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/news/newsid=1283380.html)
T&T adds new faces Zamora (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/09/02/tnt.roster/index.html)
Zamora set for T&T debut (http://www.newsday.co.tt/sport/0,105127.html)
Zamora to reject T&T (http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2559/rumours/2009/12/19/1697614/fulhams-bobby-zamora-to-reject-trinidad-tobago-for-england)

on Zamora´s reference to the door being closed by T&T, see the bottom of this article
Jack Warnerinstructs T&T not to pick Zamora (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1221138/DAN-KING-Rosen-gets-sort-sledging-appreciates--Ewan-McGregors-old-mate.html)

[ifk101]

It appears to me that Zamora never made any binding commitment to Trinidad. So whether he formally requested to change association is all I'm looking for clarity on. While I appreciate that your opinion is based on "analysis", I'd rather something more concrete than that as the wording of the FIFA articles does not support your point (imo).

[Charlie Darwin]

It depends on the meaning of "formal request" - it's not defined in the articles so you sort of have to extrapolate. I think, given that the entire purpose of the law is to make it easier for players to switch associations, I'd guess it's very close to or identical to the normal criteria for exclusion: e.g. a full cap.

As far as I know, making an application to FIFA is only for the purpose of establishing eligibility - all it does it confirm that the player is qualified to represent one of two associations rather than just their original one. You don't formally commit yourself to any association until you've been capped at a competitive level.

[tetsujin1979]

It appears to me that Zamora never made any binding commitment to Trinidad. So whether he formally requested to change association is all I'm looking for clarity on. While I appreciate that your opinion is based on "analysis", I'd rather something more concrete than that as the wording of the FIFA articles does not support your point (imo).
don't know if he ever did formally request to change association, but according to his wikipedia profile, he applied for, and received a T&T passport before being called into a squad. That would suggest he was serious at one point about playing for T&T.
He was subsequently injured and missed out on the game, and went on to play for England.

[ifk101]

As far as I know, making an application to FIFA is only for the purpose of establishing eligibility - all it does it confirm that the player is qualified to represent one of two associations rather than just their original one. You don't formally commit yourself to any association until you've been capped at a competitive level.

But I think that defeats the purpose of an article stipulating that you may only switch association once when it's a given that if you play in a competitive senior A international you are tied to that association.


don't know if he ever did formally request to change association, but according to his wikipedia profile, he applied for, and received a T&T passport before being called into a squad. That would suggest he was serious at one point about playing for T&T.
He was subsequently injured and missed out on the game, and went on to play for England.

It's not clear from his wikipedia page but he renewed his Trinidadian passport at the time - which perhaps puts a different spin on it. Obviously he was open to the idea of playing for Trinidad but the formal request part is what's at question.

[geysir]

It appears to me that Zamora never made any binding commitment to Trinidad.
True, he didn't turn up despite being in 3 squads so his commitment wasn't binding. He would have been bound if he turned up and played. That's not the point is it?
The point is he formally applied to FIFA to change associations and that clearance came through (see FIFA link). Then he was selected to play for T&T. He decided not to turn up. Because he did not turn up he was free to re-declare himself to England. That is the kernel issue.


So whether he formally requested to change association is all I'm looking for clarity on.
Read the report in the FIFA web page stating that he had completed the formal paperwork to change to T&T and then you can wonder why T&T finally selected him after years of trying to get him. T&T had tried to get him for the 2006 WC but probably he was too old to change then.

While I appreciate that your opinion is based on "analysis", I'd rather something more concrete than that as the wording of the FIFA articles does not support your point(imo).
The wording does not contradict my opinion either, does it?. So it comes down to what you can gather to support your opinion.
What supports my opinion is hard evidence. If you chose to be sceptical then so be it. But in order to even have a semblance of persuasion, you have to do better than just deny the solidity of the Zamora example. That's so biblical :)

[ifk101]

The point is he formally applied to FIFA to change associations and that clearance came through (see FIFA link).

It doesn't say that. It states that he obtained the relevant documentation. You're assuming this means that he applied, got the okay from FIFA, and was a "Trinidadian player" when it could just as easily be interpreted as meaning that he simply acquired the relevant documentation to make the request to change association.

[geysir]

Read that line in then context of the article and there is only one main easy assumption. There are other much less likely assumptions to be taken but that would contradict the other content in the article.
You might have a slight chance if this was an isolated report, but it's not isolated, it is one link in a chain of reported events
The chain of reported events and reported quotes, make the Zamora example to just about being incontrovertible.

[Kingdom]

I hadn't really given too much thought to the Celtic tournament before now, aside from the fact that it is semi-competitive and gives fringe players a possible opportunity. It's an awful pity the 6 games aren't being played in the space of 7/10 days, as that would allow for different partnerships and full use of the squad.

With so few players at the top level, honour chasing clubs of the English game, and fewer still playing on the mainland, we probably should be picking our in-form, stand out players in their stand out positions. We have few candidates using that criteria though, with Kevin Doyle, Kevin Foley, Seamus Coleman, Marc Wilson, Damien Duff, Shane Long and Aiden McGeady perhaps being head of the list.
Of course the old reliables have rarely let us down, but the lack of game time for Shay & Robbie is going to become an issue sooner rather than later and personally I thought both were edgy in the autumn. Richard Dunne has been alarmingly out of form, I'm not up to tabs on Sledger but skimming the thread on him here it seems he's mirrored his international partners form, while Josh has been injured and is bound to be rusty.
The demotion of Killer further highlights the deficiency at left back, and it leaves us in a stinker of a situation: the possibilty of blooding a total greenhorn (given greg's injury woe) or continuing on with a player as honest as could be, but ageing rapidly before the eyes.

Our recent midfield options have to be a worry too, with Whelan seeing zero gametime for Stoke and reportedly surplus to requirements, while Andrews has been a long term injury. Green seems to be something of a victim of being ****e, only Fahey has been seeing gametime and that has been out wide. McCarthy of course has played quite a few games but won't be ready.

That might not be a 100% accurate appraisal of the first team, but it's not too bad either. Also with so few regulars being, erm, regulars, wonder could the Mister tinker with the formation a bit?

So, what to do? Can we continue to persist with players that aren't playing? If the answer is no, then it means picking something like this:

----------------------------Westwood---------------------------
Foley ------------ Dunne ------------- Clark------------?--------

Coleman ----------Fahey------------- Wilson --------------McGeady--
-----------------------------Long--------------------------------
---------------------------- Doyle-------------------------------

Also, with Foley having played in the centre successfully twice for Wolves, you could adapt the above team somewhat to this:

Coleman - Dunne - Clark - ? -
--Fahey---Foley---Wilson--
Long------------------McGeady
--------------Doyle------------


Makgidi is back in preseason, and by the time of the Wales match will have had a preseason tourny under his belt.

[geysir]

Spartak will be involved in earnest in the Europa league, won't they?

[peadar1987]

Given
Foley---Dunne---O'Shea---Ward
Coleman---Foley---Delap---Duff
Keane---Doyle

Would be my choice, for what it's worth.

[Kingdom]

Spartak will be involved in earnest in the Europa league, won't they?

They are in the EL, but not sure when the knock-out stages begin.

[Dunners]

St Ledger or Hunt could play at left back . Wilson could play at CB with Clark - call up Duffy and bring him on at some point
Foley and Coleman have to play at RB and right midfield respectively

[Crosby87]

More importantly is, who would the manager be?

[The Fly]

More importantly is, who would the manager be?

shellyriver, obviously.

[CraftyToePoke]

Given
Foley---Dunne---O'Shea---Ward
Coleman---Foley---Delap---Duff
Keane---Doyle

Would be my choice, for what it's worth.

I see there Foley is an important player for you Peadar.

[peadar1987]

I see there Foley is an important player for you Peadar.

:doh: The Foley in central midfield should be Fahey!

[Supreme feet]

The first thing to sort out for Trap, or any manager at the moment, is the central midfield conundrum. We have a shedload of players for the position, with the established, experienced ones arguably not good enough, and the more talented ones either injured or not ready yet. With room for only five central midfielders in a squad, it's a tough call for Trap, and he's not going to please everyone.

Whelan and Andrews are Trap's first choice, which would be fine if both were match-fit and playing well. However, Whelan needs a move from Stoke, and Andrews needs to get fit and break back into Blackburn's first team. No definites there, but they'll still probably be picked.

Fahey is the form Irish midfielder, a better passer than GW and KA, and did quite well against Norway. I'd be happy for a Fahey + Whelan or Andrews combination to play against Macedonia. Fair to say that Fahey, Whelan and Andrews are not going to be dropped by Trap.

Gibson? Seems to be playing a bit more these days, but has still to make an impression for Ireland. Wouldn't be averse to seeing him left out in favour of McCarthy, but can't see it happening.

Wilson? Not playing as much as we'd like, hard to judge how good he actually is, based on a few performances here and there.

McCarthy? Will he return from injury in time to be in consideration for Wales? If not, when will he get a chance to work his way into the squad? Same goes for Meyler - can he be fit in time for the May friendlies?

Green? It would be a travesty if he makes the squad again, but having started the last four competitive games, it'd be a pleasant shock, but a shock nonetheless, if Trap dropped him from the squad.

Talk of Foley or Clark playing out of position in CM is needless, in my opinion. Foley and Clark are needed elsewhere. Delap doesn't offer any more than the above, bar long throws, and isn't an option for the future either. Andy Reid's best hope of getting in the squad is by displacing one of the wingers, which probably isn't going to happen given Coleman's emergence as an option on the right, and McGeady, Hunt and Duff competing for the left. Conor Clifford is an exciting prospect, but needs more time. Maguire is way down the pecking order, and will need to do something spectacular to displace the men ahead of him.

My five midfielders for the upcoming year: Whelan, Andrews, Fahey, McCarthy, Meyler/Gibson. *Gibson only if Meyler is still injured.

What I think Trap will pick for the Wales game: Whelan, Andrews, Fahey, Green, Gibson.

[TrapAPony]

My five midfielders for the upcoming year: Whelan, Andrews, Fahey, McCarthy, Meyler/Gibson. *Gibson only if Meyler is still injured.


Agree with that. Marc Wilson should be included as a defender and he would also give us an extra option in the middle.

[cufc champions]

id like to see it changed up abit formation wise id play

Westwood
Clarke Dunne O Shea
Duff/ Hunt Fahey Gibson Ward Mcgeady
Long Doyle

[ifk101]

Read that line in then context of the article and there is only one main easy assumption. There are other much less likely assumptions to be taken but that would contradict the other content in the article.
You might have a slight chance if this was an isolated report, but it's not isolated, it is one link in a chain of reported events
The chain of reported events and reported quotes, make the Zamora example to just about being incontrovertible.

The answer to our disagreement is to be found in the Daniel Kearns ruling.

In the background facts to the case it is stated that;
"On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be irreversible."

In the case of Zamora, it's highly probable that he filed for change of association but did not confirm this change with FIFA - therefore never changing association.

With regards to Ciaran Clark, if he has filed and confirmed his change of association, he is tied to us regardless if he is capped at senior level or not.