Tournament Hosting

[fionnsci]

I've always considered Ireland hosting a major international tournament to be beyond our grasp, especially since the European Championships is now being expanded. The main problem as I have seen it is the need for 12 grounds in 11 cities for the new, expanded Euros. But the decision to award the World Cup to Qatar seems to have thrown the rules out the window. Yes, Uefa is not necessarily going to follow Fifa's example but the fact that Fifa are willing to change their stance certainly means something. Qatar's 12 venues are shared between six cities, all smaller than Dublin. Could this mark a change, opening the tournaments up to smaller nations?

Yes, Qatar is very wealthy. But I am not suggesting the World Cup, nor I am I suggesting that we go it alone. The Scotts have shown in the past that they would have an interest. Irish infrastructure is somewhat lacking but has been improving. New airport terminal, luas extensions, underground Dart connectors, potential metro, but granted, we would still have a long way to go.

I'm aware that this has all been discussed before but the Qatar decision really does open up new doors.

Note: Obviously with the country and the FAI both in the ****s, this is not a short term objective.

[pineapple stu]

What would we do with the grounds after? Move St Pat's into a new 45,000 seater ground and UCD into a 40,000 seater? That's effectively what's happened in other countries (Japan, South Korea, Portugal). Would be a complete waste of money long-term I think.

[fionnsci]

We're not talking about anything on the scale of those countries. First of all, we wouldn't need to build anything bigger than 30,000. They can be dramatically reduced in size after. Think of London's olympic stadium, will hold 80,000 during the olympics and 25,000 after. We could temporarily have a 30,000 seater in Galway, for example, an reduce it to 10,000 after. This could even be shared by the IRFU, their ground in Galway is awful. Reading share their ground with London Irish, Swansea with the Ospreys..... Also, if we were to split it we'd Scotland, we'd take 5 grounds, they'd do 7. We've got the two in Dublin, Thomond wouldn't need too much work, and then you have Cork and Galway.

[Yard of Pace]

I've always considered Ireland hosting a major international tournament to be beyond our grasp, especially since the European Championships is now being expanded. The main problem as I have seen it is the need for 12 grounds in 11 cities for the new, expanded Euros. But the decision to award the World Cup to Qatar seems to have thrown the rules out the window. Yes, Uefa is not necessarily going to follow Fifa's example but the fact that Fifa are willing to change their stance certainly means something. Qatar's 12 venues are shared between six cities, all smaller than Dublin. Could this mark a change, opening the tournaments up to smaller nations?

Yes, Qatar is very wealthy. But I am not suggesting the World Cup, nor I am I suggesting that we go it alone. The Scotts have shown in the past that they would have an interest. Irish infrastructure is somewhat lacking but has been improving. New airport terminal, luas extensions, underground Dart connectors, potential metro, but granted, we would still have a long way to go.

I'm aware that this has all been discussed before but the Qatar decision really does open up new doors.

Note: Obviously with the country and the FAI both in the ****s, this is not a short term objective.

That's the crux there though really, isn't it?

A question: do hosting countries usually end up losing money or making money? Obviously shops/bars/food outlets make money but the economy as a whole?

[pineapple stu]

I think it's 30,000 minimum for European Championship and 40,000 minimum for World Cup grounds, so it'd be similar enough to other countries. Connaught get what - 3,000? 4,000 per game? Galway United get less than 1,000. No need even for a 10,000 capacity ground. And you'd need eight of them at least throughout the country.

GAA grounds is maybe an option, but you'd have to renovate them entirely and take out the terracing; no certainty they'd want that (and even less that they'd go with the idea in general).

YoP - I think FIFA need an agreement with the host country which basically says that tax breaks and rules need to be written to allow FIFA skim as much money as possible out of the tournaments for themselves. That's part of the reason why the Dutch public weren't behind their bid (30% in favour, I think I saw?)

[fionnsci]

That's the crux there though really, isn't it?

A question: do hosting countries usually end up losing money or making money? Obviously shops/bars/food outlets make money but the economy as a whole?

I think that some countries have lost money. But look at all the countries vying to host these tournaments, even in Europe; Belgium, Holland, Spain and Portugal just lost out, France are hosting 2016. If it is done well, avoiding the white elephants, I'm sure that money is to be made.


"No need even for a 10,000 capacity ground. And you'd need eight of them at least throughout the country."

We'll make it as small as you like! Also, no we wouldn't need that many. 5, I'd say.

[pineapple stu]

You can't really turn a 30,000 seater ground into a 2,000 one after; that's basically just taking the whole thing down afterwards. How would you turn Lansdowne Road into a 2,000 seater?

Euro 2008 had eight grounds; the 2010 World Cup had ten grounds. I think they're about the minimum.

[fionnsci]

How small we make the ground isn't the issue. 10,000 will do, we can keep most of it closed. Think of Tolka, Dalymount, Tuners Cross; all too big. A nice modern ground would do wonders for the clubs. Not too long ago, everybody thought that Drogheda's 10,000 seater, cinema extravenganza was fantasic.

Also, yes we'd need plenty of grounds to do it alone, but I'm not suggesting that, nor do I think that we could do it. Nether could Scotland though, and they have expressed interest in the past, not only about Euro 2008 but I believe with 2016 as well.

[Crosby87]

Is there anyone that thinks Qatar was maybe paying judges under the table? I mean come on. Its the two most corrupt groups of people in the world dealing with each other.

[pineapple stu]

Many thought Drogheda's ground was fantastic too, but in a different sense of the word.

Playing games in grounds way too big for the crowd at them takes away from the game. Look at Darlington playing in a 25,000-seater ground; just feels wrong. Pat's in Richmond is cosy. Pat's in a 10,000 capacity ground would feel silly. And taking most of the ground apart afterwards would add to the cost.

I don't think Scotland would join forces with us again after the last time, when we chipped in with a ground that needed to be completely rebuilt, a ground that wouldn't allow football and a picture of a ground.

[Lionel Ritchie]

GAA grounds is maybe an option, but you'd have to renovate them entirely and take out the terracing; no certainty they'd want that (and even less that they'd go with the idea in general). Why ask their permission? These are times of major upheaval and tumult. A rush and a push....

[peadar1987]

Ireland will never host the World Cup, nor would I really want us to. However, a joint bid for the Euros might be a possibility. Lansdowne, rent Croker, Thomond, expanded Musgrave Park, and a modular stadium in Galway that can be reduced in capacity, and the individual sections taken to other locations and put back up there. Then Scotland could probably get enough good stadia together to mount a proper bid, Ibrox, Parkhead, Easter Road, Murrayfield, and new stadia in Dundee and Aberdeen.

A bid for an underage tournament could also be a runner.

That said, I think the FAI have bigger things to be worrying about than hosting a major tournament!

[pineapple stu]

A bid for an underage tournament could also be a runner.
Agreed. It's interesting that we've never even gone for one of them. And at the moment, we don't even seem to be hosting the qualifying groups.

[Colbert Report]

The only way we'll ever have any major tournament in Ireland is if we're part of an England bid. Sorry folks, but that's just he plain truth. One group would play all their matches in Ireland along with a couple of knockout stage matches to be hosted here. It would benefit England's chances tremendously I think.

[fionnsci]

I do sense something silly about the Qatar situation but the fact is that a precedent has been set. Size of country and venues to city ratio are now apparently no longer important.

I was actually thinking about the Darlington Arena earlier and yes, that is farcical. This is a very minor issue though, it would help crowds get in and be good for sport in the city. I'm not expecting Galway to all of a sudden be getting great crowds but things like this would help. It wouldn't be anything like the white elephants of Korea/Japan or the Beijing olympics. This is much smaller.

[fionnsci]

The only way we'll ever have any major tournament in Ireland is if we're part of an England bid. Sorry folks, but that's just he plain truth. One group would play all their matches in Ireland along with a couple of knockout stage matches to be hosted here. It would benefit England's chances tremendously I think.

England don't need us. They have fantastic infrastructure, footballing and otherwise. They wouldn't want to share their party. They really must have ****ed something up badly to squander the opputunity that they had.

[Dodge]

Agreed. It's interesting that we've never even gone for one of them

Hosted Euro u16s in about 1994.

[peadar1987]

The only way we'll ever have any major tournament in Ireland is if we're part of an England bid. Sorry folks, but that's just he plain truth. One group would play all their matches in Ireland along with a couple of knockout stage matches to be hosted here. It would benefit England's chances tremendously I think.

UEFA have already said they favour single-nation bids. And England would go for a bid with Scotland or Wales before they'd go in with us anyway.


England don't need us. They have fantastic infrastructure, footballing and otherwise. They wouldn't want to share their party. They really must have ****ed something up badly to squander the opputunity that they had.

I think it's probably more down to Blatter's desire to bring the world cup to as many random places as he can, and PS's point about FIFA requiring huge concessions, which Russia may have been more willing to make than England.

[Colbert Report]

You guys don't realize how popular Ireland is abroad. Here in Canada everyone loves Ireland and the Irish people. The same cannot be said for England throughout the world. Hence, they could use us to their advantage to secure a bid.

[peadar1987]

You guys don't realize how popular Ireland is abroad. Here in Canada everyone loves Ireland and the Irish people. The same cannot be said for England throughout the world. Hence, they could use us to their advantage to secure a bid.

But the people who decide where the World Cup goes aren't like the Irish voting public. They'll vote based on the actual merits of a bid, as opposed to one of the nominees being a grand bunch of lads.

[pineapple stu]

You guys don't realize how popular Ireland is abroad. Here in Canada everyone loves Ireland and the Irish people. The same cannot be said for England throughout the world. Hence, they could use us to their advantage to secure a bid.
You have no idea how irrelevant that is in the context of getting the required number of votes.

Also, how does Dodge know this random stuff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_UEFA_European_Under-16_Football_Championship)?! Jesper Gronkjaer once played in the Plassey Bowl in Limerick! Is that the pitch in UL or where is it?

[CraftyToePoke]

Is there anyone that thinks Qatar was maybe paying judges under the table? I mean come on. Its the two most corrupt groups of people in the world dealing with each other.


It cannot be ruled out, and there has been more than a whiff of backscratching about the whole thing.

[CraftyToePoke]

You guys don't realize how popular Ireland is abroad. Here in Canada everyone loves Ireland and the Irish people. The same cannot be said for England throughout the world. Hence, they could use us to their advantage to secure a bid.

I once had a teacher who said 'We Irish think the whole world loves us but in reality most of them dont even know we exist', which I would agree with apart from a vague awareness in some quarters, of our ability to drink, terrorise and more recently be spectacularly skint. After Englands humbling yesterday, I would doubt they are saying, or are likely to feel a link up with Ireland would have made the difference. Nor would it have, or be in any way likely to in future.

[Dodge]

Also, how does Dodge know this random stuff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_UEFA_European_Under-16_Football_Championship)?!

Its not that random. Plus, you know, I'm a geek.

2 lads I went to school with were on the provisional Irish squad for it too.

BTW wiki is wrong. The games they have listed for the Iveagh Grounds were actually played in Richmond Park. When it was announced Richmond wasn't re-opened (happened in Dec 93) but the games were 100% in Inchicore and not Crumlin

[Yard of Pace]

Is there anyone that thinks Qatar was maybe paying judges under the table? I mean come on. Its the two most corrupt groups of people in the world dealing with each other.

Is there anyone that doesn't think that would be a more pertinent question.

[pineapple stu]

Is there anyone who'd be remotely surprised?

[tetsujin1979]

You have no idea how irrelevant that is in the context of getting the required number of votes.

Also, how does Dodge know this random stuff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_UEFA_European_Under-16_Football_Championship)?! Jesper Gronkjaer once played in the Plassey Bowl in Limerick! Is that the pitch in UL or where is it?

yeah, that's the pitch in UL. It's behind the arena, where the 50m swimming pool is. Munster use it for training.
I went to one of the games at the bowl, but can't remember who was playing

[osarusan]

It's not quite the same thing, but I remember about 15/20 years ago, there was a meeting somewhere and the purpose was to have people interested in hosting the olympics to come along and see all the details of what hosting the tournament entailed. There was a reporter from RTE at the meeting, and when he was asked if it was feasible that Ireland would be able to host the olympics at some point in the future, his reply was that he didn't think we even had the facilities to host the meeting he'd just been at.

I know it's not the same thing, as the olympics are a far far broader tournament, but the world cup (and Euros) is totally out of range. An underage tournament that saw 5-10 stadia developed into say 5,000 capacity all-seaters would be feasible and good for LOI as well.

[Yard of Pace]

Professional soccer at the top level is run by such odious individuals and the circus that they oversee is so grotesque most of the time, would we even want them here? I'm more than happy to view it from afar. Can you imagine the stomach-churning behaviour our oily politicians would no doubt engage in? I reckon even the Europa League Final next year will be a cringe-inducing few days apart from what's really important, the fans, the buzz in the city and the game itself.

[pineapple stu]

Professional soccer at the top level is run by such odious individuals and the circus that they oversee is so grotesque most of the time
Thank God we don't have that problem here.

[Junior]

You guys don't realize how popular Ireland is abroad. Here in Canada everyone loves Ireland and the Irish people. The same cannot be said for England throughout the world. Hence, they could use us to their advantage to secure a bid.

Sure did us a lot of favours in the Henry'gate episode.

What a completely ridiculous post. Ireland would add very little (if anything) to an English bid. Other than 'we like a bit o craic' any other tangible benefits (that England dont already have) we would bring to the table to help land England a World Cup?

[Stuttgart88]

England have no influence in UEFA or FIFA circles. For example, Beckenbauer is not just a famous figurehead, he's an influential German football administrator and football politician. Bobby Charlton is just a FA / MUFC mascot. Just like as with the EU, they just don't play the politcal game well. Only getting one additional vote was a disaster though.

In fairness to the FAI, I understand they played the UEFA political game very well to secure the Europa League Final.

It's pretty well acknowledged in academic circles that politicians and other vested interests vastly overstate the economic benefits of staging mega-events. Specialist sports economist Stefan Szymanski and Simon Kuper of the FT have written extensively on it, as have others. Sport tourists often deter other tourists, sports tourists typically spend less than regular tourists, "multipliers" are usually vastly overstated etc. Legacies are usually overstated too and countries are left saddled with debts and white elephant venues. Szymanski says that all you're doing is paying to stage a party, not creating a proper stimulus.

In Ireland's case you'd probably get a Keynesian style demand-boost due to the current depressed nature of the economy but it'd whittle out. Anyway, do we really need another construction-driven growth spurt?

[SwanVsDalton]

Agreed. It's interesting that we've never even gone for one of them. And at the moment, we don't even seem to be hosting the qualifying groups.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association_of_Ireland), and backed up by other things I'd heard and read at the time, Delaney was chasing the U-21 European Championships 2011 (possible a joint bid with IFA). I believe at one point he also declared finishing Lansdowne Road, hosting a major European final and hosting a major underage tournament as the main aims of his tenure? Think so anyway....

There was some talk at the time, from an authoritative source, that if the plans to redevelop the Brandywell had of gone forward, and DCFC hadn't imploded or the recession had somehow magicked itself away, then we would've had a good shout for being a host city.


You guys don't realize how popular Ireland is abroad. Here in Canada everyone loves Ireland and the Irish people. The same cannot be said for England throughout the world. Hence, they could use us to their advantage to secure a bid.

Funny enough I was thinking yesterday - if there was an All-Ireland bid launched for 2030, running on a platform of hands across the border in perfect harmony, we'd definitely accrue more votes than England did yesterday. That's despite having no infrastructure to host, ongoing security problems, no money, two associations that hate each other and a bunch of stadiums with no seats we'd have to borrow from the GAH.

We'd still accrue more support - irrelevant, obviously, except to show just how ludicrous FIFA's buffet-fuelled and greasy palmed bid joust is.

[Yard of Pace]

Thank God we don't have that problem here.

:) Indeed not!

Nah, but what we do have is more than enough for me, thanks. I like watching Coronation Street but I'd hate for the cast to come and live in my house. If you know what I mean.

[Junior]

In fairness to the FAI, I understand they played the UEFA political game very well to secure the Europa League Final.

Thats probably very true, I know its the way of the world but like the whole WC Bidding and Voting farce - I dont like all this political ar$e kissing and hoop jumping to get what votes you need. Im not sure whether the FAI deserves credit for playing the game well or not - Particularly if (as seems to be the general consensus) footballing authorities need a proper overhaul (perhaps UEFA are deemed to be cleaner than most?).

Out of interest when was the Europa League Final decision made? Pre or Post Henry'gate.......

[Dodge]

England have no influence in UEFA or FIFA circles. For example, Beckenbauer is not just a famous figurehead, he's an influential German football administrator and football politician. Bobby Charlton is just a FA / MUFC mascot. Just like as with the EU, they just don't play the politcal game well. Only getting one additional vote was a disaster though.

In fairness to the FAI, I understand they played the UEFA political game very well to secure the Europa League Final.


Against the England got the Champions League final at the same time...

Seriously though, there's just a little too much being read into these awards. There absolutely is a sense for some that its "their turn". The UEFA Cup has been around all the main countries. I think any peripheral country that wants it will get it now (and thats why we got it).

[pineapple stu]

England have no influence in UEFA or FIFA circles.
Don't each of the Home Nations have a person each on the UEFA board (or technical board)? I think it's been cited as an annoyance that they should have so much influence.

[Schumi]

Don't each of the Home Nations have a person each on the UEFA board (or technical board)?
That's the board that decides rule changes. Four FIFA nominees and one each from the four British FAs.

[geysir]

The UK associations are guardians of the rules of the game with FIFA - their vote is needed to change those rules, apart from that they have no special/privileged influence on other matters.

[fionnsci]

Unlikely, I know, now more than ever, but I couldn't resist putting this together. I have some time on my hands on account of the snow.....

European Championships Stadium requirements:

2 stadia with 50,000 seats
3 stadia with 40,000 seats
4 stadia with 30,000 seats

3 others as contingency.

SCOTLAND
Celtic Park - 60,000
Hampden Park - 52,000
Murrayfield - 67,000
New Aberdeen Stadium - 30,000 (current plans of 21,000, would need expansion)
Dundee Stadium - 30,000 (this ground-share has been proposed twice and would be done in the event of a major tournament)

IRELAND
Croke Park - 74,000
Aviva Stadium - 51,700
Thomond Park - 30,000 (Currently 26,000, probably about 20,000 if made all seated so redevelopment needed)
Cork Stadium - 30,000 (Musgrave due to be redeveloped into 18,000, would need temporary expansion. Alternatively, Páirc Uí Chaoimh with much tidying)

CONTINGENCY
Ibrox Stadium - 51,000
Galway Stadium - 30,000 (To be dramatically reduced in size after, potentially to be used by Galway United + Connacht Rugby)
Gaelic Grounds - 30,000 (Already about 25,000, seats installed on terraccing, covers installed)

----------------------

It could be done. Not now but down the line.

City to Stadium Ratio - 7:9
Qatar's - 1:2

[Dodge]

Don't forget they already bid for the euros, and they were laughed out of it

[Lionel Ritchie]

It's not quite the same thing, but I remember about 15/20 years ago, there was a meeting somewhere and the purpose was to have people interested in hosting the olympics to come along and see all the details of what hosting the tournament entailed. There was a reporter from RTE at the meeting, and when he was asked if it was feasible that Ireland would be able to host the olympics at some point in the future, his reply was that he didn't think we even had the facilities to host the meeting he'd just been at. I believe that was more recently than you think ...and was a preliminary assessment/discussion of the Scots/Irish Euro 2008 bid.

[Gather round]

The UK associations are guardians of the rules of the game with FIFA - their vote is needed to change those rules, apart from that they have no special/privileged influence on other matters

Apparently genial Jim Boyce is set to replace England's Geoff Thompson on ExCo.

God help us all...

[geysir]

Then it must be that the UK associations have one of the 7 vice president seats reserved for their backside..
I hope it's a large seat for Jim.

[Crosby87]

To Yard of Pace above me sorry screwed it up too lazy to redo it with quote:

Umm..yes many Irish.
I often have trouble talking facts. People must feel guilty of something. I do not. So I can talk facts.
Also many Irish seem to confuse "Race" with "Religion." Islam is NOT a race.
Sorry, had to vent.

[weldoninhio]

That's the board that decides rule changes. Four FIFA nominees and one each from the four British FAs.

Pedantic Corner! 4 British FAs??? Don't they only have 3. England, Scotland and Wales??

[fionnsci]

What word would you use to describe the nationality of someone from the UK? British is the closest there is.

[AlaskaFox]

What word would you use to describe the nationality of someone from the UK? British is the closest there is.

None, the UK isn't a nation. It's four nations. ;)

[Dodge]

FFS lads, every time? We all know the status of NI.

No need to drag every thread that mentions them into a fecking political protest

[Schumi]

As far as I know British is the correct term for "of the UK" but it's hardly worth the argument.