Snow !!

[Macy]

Made it down today. Living high up, you expect the roads to be bad, but it's a joke how bad the national primary routes are. Yer man from the NRA is like Comical Ali with all the crap about enough salt to keep the main roads open - my route is N/M11, M50 and N81 and none of them were what I'd call clear. Any snow and they'll be fecked again (the N81 is particularly bad - not even tarmac tracks). If this is the best they can do, supposedly with better controls and coordination this winter, they might as well admit defeat and legislate for winter tryes from November to Feb.

WTF is going on that the NRA isn't sourcing salt from the North instead of the med? More short termism - cost might be significantly cheaper for the salt, but whats been the cost of the last few weeks disruption to the economy?

[dahamsta]

Still lovely in East Cork. :)

1720

[hula4]

just out of curiousity, we live on an island, why can't sand from our beaches be used to grit the roads? we were discussing this in work and none of us could come up with an answer

[pineapple stu]

Lashing down again. :)

[osarusan]

View from my balcony about 5 minutes ago. No snow, just day after day of -5 or -6 leaving everywhere frozen. (If this file is too big for the site, feel free to edit/chop/magic it.)

[Dublin12]

just out of curiousity, we live on an island, why can't sand from our beaches be used to grit the roads? we were discussing this in work and none of us could come up with an answer

It's corrosive and would damage cars, I do alot of sea fishing and after every trip you have to wash your gear or else it will be ruined.

[Fr Damo]

It's corrosive and would damage cars, I do alot of sea fishing and after every trip you have to wash your gear or else it will be ruined.

It's not the sand but the salt residue that's corrosive - the same salt they are spreading on the roads out of the salt spreaders / gritters.
Cars these days are galvanised before being painted and withstand much more than the old UK imports you might remember of the 1980s that quickly being rust buckets. There is a company in Birr (not to be confused with Burrrrr, it's freezing) called Romaquip who are leaders in speading technology. They produced 150 vehicles in the last three years for the UK Highway Services, Our guys bought around 20, so the only reason we don't have the Roads clear is because of Cash. When the snow has melted I'd be keen to know how much it would have cost to keep roads clear against how much the Government lost in tax revenue, productivity and VAT etc.

[BonnieShels]

They won't be able to tell you that.
I spent all of September trying to get my boss to approve a form that I was designing that takes the current a3 folded form all onto a a4 that we would print in-house and would envelope in our enveloping machine. I was over-ruled because of the cost of the a4 paper and laser cartridge. Of course they didn't answer my query as to the cost of the staff to hand envelope.
I moved department and everyday for the last 2 weeks that section has had all staff labeling the old form and hand folding into envelopes and they are still not finished.
It warms the cockles to see them.
Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that there is no way that the govt will be able to or will want to quantify the true cost.

[Macy]

It's not the sand but the salt residue that's corrosive - the same salt they are spreading on the roads out of the salt spreaders / gritters.
I'm not sure it is the same salt, but regardless there isn't enough salt in beach sand to be that much more effective than sand.

[backstothewall]

just out of curiousity, we live on an island, why can't sand from our beaches be used to grit the roads? we were discussing this in work and none of us could come up with an answer

It would be utterly pointless. It wouldn't be as good, and we have the biggest salt mine in Europe in Carrickfergus. Trouble is it has been its been 15-20 below in parts. It was -10 when I was driving through Belfast on Tuesday morning. No practical amount of salt will melt that. Nothing will unless we start pouring pure alcohol or something on the roads.

We're just going to have to grin and bear it for a few more days until it melts. Other countries cope with months of this. A few days won't kill us.

[Bluebeard]

Nothing will unless we start pouring pure alcohol or something on the roads.
Of course that was tried, but the number of pedestrian casualties tripled overnight...

[dahamsta]

I'd prefer to stay in and pour the alcohol down me gullet. I've stocked up in preparation.

[Mr A]

Haven't picked up Xmas slab yet. Will have to do so tomorrow. Hoping the roads are clear by the 26th so that I can get back to Donegal without too much hassle.

[the 12 th man]

Nightmare !!! (Is that a nice Jag in the first or second crash?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PApZm9-rwFc&feature=related

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure it is the same salt, but regardless there isn't enough salt in beach sand to be that much more effective than sand.
Is salt not just sodium chloride regardless of whether it's table salt or sea salt or beach sand salt or whatever?

[dahamsta]

Yup, salt is salt, but he's right in general.

The other reason we can't use beach sand is that it'll screw with ecology and erosion. Even small changes to beaches can result in massive erosion problems in quite a quick timespan. Entire beaches would disappear and/or appear elsewhere, miles and miles away from the source point, which can and does results in houses - and entire farms, business and towns - disappearing into the sea.

adam /watches too much Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_%28TV_series%29)

[Mr A]

Sounds like a laugh. We should definitely do that!

[pineapple stu]

Yeah. So long as it's not my farm, business or town, but it involves me getting home quicker, I can't see a problem.

[Macy]

Is salt not just sodium chloride regardless of whether it's table salt or sea salt or beach sand salt or whatever?
The salt element is the same chemically, but I don't think it's that simple. I'm obviously not an expert, but I would assume differences in the structure of the different types of salt that make them more or less effective.

But, I think the point main point is that salty sand isn't that much more effective than sand alone - or not that much better to make it worth the potential problems that Adam pointed too. (Look up Halsands if you want to see what messing with this can do!)

[John83]

The salt element is the same chemically, but I don't think it's that simple. I'm obviously not an expert, but I would assume differences in the structure of the different types of salt that make them more or less effective.
Nah, the point of the salt is that salt-water melts at a lower temperature. That's it.

[dahamsta]

Salted grit is more effective than plain grit. Grit just helps with traction, salted grit causes the snow and ice to melt, as above, down to -18.

[Schumi]

I think the size of the salt crystals makes a difference to how well it works, bigger crystals being better for whatever reason.

[Wolfie]

Yup, salt is salt, but he's right in general.

The other reason we can't use beach sand is that it'll screw with ecology and erosion. Even small changes to beaches can result in massive erosion problems in quite a quick timespan. Entire beaches would disappear and/or appear elsewhere, miles and miles away from the source point, which can and does results in houses - and entire farms, business and towns - disappearing into the sea.

adam /watches too much Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coast_%28TV_series%29)


Sounds like a laugh. We should definitely do that!

Intriguing. Conjurs up images of Noel Edmonds "Gotcha" segment on "Noels House Party".

"This week we've arranged to displace an entire Beach with hilarious results!!! Just watch the locals gape in horror as their houses collapse into the sea with all of their worldly possessions and pets. Gotcha!!!!!!!!!"

[dahamsta]

I think the size of the salt crystals makes a difference to how well it works, bigger crystals being better for whatever reason.

Dunno about that, but I do know that the reason they generally use rock salt is simply because it's cheaper.

[Macy]

If we now have loads of salt, why aren't the roads feckin gritted this morning? M50 around Tallaght is pure ice, never mind the N81 and Belgard Road. Did the NRA finish up yesterday or something?

[Dodge]

POssibly. I know South Dublin (who have responsibility for N81 and belgard) were out this morning. I'm not saying they had hit those roads but they were out anyway.

Huge problem with the m50 is jurisdiction. Neither NRA or county/city councils claim responsibility for the off ramps apparently. Not good enough eother way

[Lionel Ritchie]

Drove the M50 north yesterday and it was pretty scarey. The on and off ramps were a real hazard as vehicles (trucks especially) were bringing additional debris from them onto the road itself. crawled most of it at under 10mph as far as services (Lusk? ballbriggan?) Thereafter it quickly improved to a point were you could safely manage 45-50mph as far as Ardee where I'd to turn onto the N2 which was completely f***** if I may use descriptive if unparliamentary language.

The amount of people driving at utterly inappropriate speeds for the conditions was shockin as well. Most were taking care but there are some right gob****es out there -and some of them driving 18-wheelers.

[the 12 th man]

West Wicklow and anything along the N81 in absolute flitters with the last batch of snow still lying around everywhere,haven't driven since Monday.