How Bad is Galways Bad?

[gufcfan]

Sounds crazy that GUFC could let happen
I'd just like to ask people to remember who was making these crazy decisions over the past number of years. I'm as angered by the situation as anyone and I will not defend anyone just because it is my club. There are great people in the Galway United "family" that have been working their arses off for many years and continue to do so. Please don't tar them with the same brush.

They are doing their best to put things right.

[Duffman]

I'd just like to ask people to remember who was making these crazy decisions over the past number of years. I'm as angered by the situation as anyone and I will not defend anyone just because it is my club. There are great people in the Galway United "family" that have been working their arses off for many years and continue to do so. Please don't tar them with the same brush.

They are doing their best to put things right.

I'm sure there are, my point was about Sheppard. It is unforgiveable (if true) to have breached the contract of a player GUFC could have gotten a payday from. I hope ye are OK, never a dull moment at Seanies clubs!

[pineapple stu]

In today's Star that they survived a Revenue winding-up order last December (says Leeson, so make of that what ye will).

To be in that much trouble last year and then go and lose another couple of hundred grand this year is ridiculous.

[Terry-Lander]

Oh well if the CEO said it then it has to be true after all, he wouldn't lie to the media now; would he?

[marinobohs]

Agreed. I'd take one year with ten asterisks though if it meant none of this nonsense going forward. All we have now is a position where the FAI are like an ignored parent screaming token-ly at their out of control kids. The kind of parent you'd love to slap.

But thats the point Stu, clubs are not kids (despite behaviour patterns) and need to be responsible for themselves. Despite the numerous clubs that have flirted with disaster they almost all seem hell bent on repeating the same failed business plan (it will be different this time........)
what is staggering is that the clubs that agreed collectively to the need for licencing have appeared so hell bent on breaking every rule of it whenever they saw the chance.

I genuinely do not believe that points deduction would solve the problem, would suggest only when 1/2 clubs end up going out of business completely will the penny drop. Blaming the FAI for clubs malpractice is akin to blaming the Gardai for murderers (because they did not do enough to stop them)

[pineapple stu]

While the clubs act like kids, I've no problems treating them like kids.

Your garda analogy doesn't work cos it's much easier to keep a track on 22 entities doing trackable things (building debt, not paying wages, etc) than it is to keep track of 5,000,000 people doing untrackable things (i.e. planning murders in their heads)

[peadar1987]

"I'll start treating you like a 26 year old when you start acting like a 26 year old"

http://www.channel4.com/assets/programmes/images/father-ted/series-3/episode-1/father-ted-s3e1-20090618195857_200x113.jpg

[marinobohs]

While the clubs act like kids, I've no problems treating them like kids.

Your garda analogy doesn't work cos it's much easier to keep a track on 22 entities doing trackable things (building debt, not paying wages, etc) than it is to keep track of 5,000,000 people doing untrackable things (i.e. planning murders in their heads)

Not disagreeing with you at all Stu but history shows that lessons are not learnt and I doubt that points deductions will change much. Seeing shams run trading deficit so soon after near destruction and Bohs, Drogs, Cork Derry,Shels all rush over the cliff edge leeming like despite seeing previous difficulties clearly shows that clubs still have the attitude that "this time it will be different"
Unfortunatly I believe that only complete collapse of a club or clubs will see sanity prevail (and hope and pray it aint Bohs).
The example of the "big" foreign Leagues that so many of our football "fans" look up to is hardly inspiring. Football (more especially the clubs) appears to be the only business that consistently ignores the reality that surrounds it. Seanie Fitz must surely have a future in LOI :o

[Mr A]

Derry and Cork have completely collapsed. Nothing changed.

[pineapple stu]

I doubt that points deductions will change much.
Why are clubs spending too much? To win things. What would happen if you started docking points and issuing relegations? Those clubs wouldn't win things. And those clubs who are doing things properly (few and all as there are) would benefit.

It's not a cure-all; I just don't see what harm it could possibly do.

[marinobohs]

Why are clubs spending too much? To win things. What would happen if you started docking points and issuing relegations? Those clubs wouldn't win things. And those clubs who are doing things properly (few and all as there are) would benefit.

It's not a cure-all; I just don't see what harm it could possibly do.

Shels/Derry/Cork were relegated and it changed little. Not arguing with you on stronger deterrent just dont think possible points deduction will be serious enough deterent.

What I think is needed is to change the mindset of clubs about financial prudence and short of clubs going out of business I cant see that happening. points deduction may not do any harm although the infamous Pats/shels spat over points deduction not a good precedent as it definitely had a negitive effect on the League.

[pineapple stu]

Shels, Cork and Derry weren't relegated until it was way too late. Derry and Cork had to go bankrupt before they were relegated. I'd have maybe given ye points deductions years ago for example; nip it in the bud as soon as possible.

[shantykelly]

if you iron out any loopholes, and actually enforce a punishment properly, then maybe other clubs would sit up and take notice. look at our situation last year - it broke pretty quickly, and there was a lot of debate and arguing about it, and everyone expected the worst. to be honest, most (sensible) derry fans were planning on at best gaining entry to the A-Championship. The fact that the FAI allowed a new legal/commercial entity direct entry to division one was another fudge. As a derry fan, Im eternally grateful that we got that chance and that we took it, but objectively speaking we were given a lot more than we had any right to expect.
Do all clubs not submit monthly accounts to the FAI as per licencing? If so, then any half decent accountant should be able to spot irregularities from month to month, and if such scrutiny and emphasis is placed on the initial budget proposals, then any great deviation from that should have an explainable cause. And yes, I know thats dependent upon the initial budget being even reasonably truthful and practical, but they've rejected budgets in the past for glaringly obvious no-nos, like budgeting for league positions at the end of the season. Realistically, every club should plan for coming last.
having rules in place wont stop the seasonal meltdown of some clubs, but maybe actually enforcing them will - short term pain for long term gain.

[Mr A]

The Derry situation broke quickly in the end, but there had been warning signs. For example, it had been a couple of years since Wellvan filed accounts when it all went belly up. If the FAI had taken things more seriously, earlier, the meltdown just might have been avoided. (One would wonder what the monthly accounts looked like from them.. probably grand.)

Instead it was hands over the eyes stuff and then fudge it. No deterrent. Nothing learned by anybody. Except that if you don't have assets but are a relatively big club that the consequences of meltdown are not particularly serious. Hardly the lesson they were seeking to propagate.

[pineapple stu]

The Derry situation broke quickly in the end, but there had been warning signs. For example, it had been a couple of years since Wellvan filed accounts when it all went belly up.
Not to mention not paying the Conor Sammon transfer fee for months. A fiasco John Delaney had to personally intervene in just to get us paid, and yet no other penalties were dished out. (I don't count transfer embargoes imposed outside of the transfer window)

And actually, I should correct myself (and marinobohs) - the FAI didn't relegate Derry and Cork at all. They actually promoted the new entities from the A league.

[shantykelly]

The Derry situation broke quickly in the end, but there had been warning signs. For example, it had been a couple of years since Wellvan filed accounts when it all went belly up. If the FAI had taken things more seriously, earlier, the meltdown just might have been avoided. (One would wonder what the monthly accounts looked like from them.. probably grand.)

Instead it was hands over the eyes stuff and then fudge it. No deterrent. Nothing learned by anybody. Except that if you don't have assets but are a relatively big club that the consequences of meltdown are not particularly serious. Hardly the lesson they were seeking to propagate.

agreed, but there are warning signs at a lot of clubs - with bohs now its not a warning sign, its a big red alarm like on top of the ghostbusters car. but there are too many fans who look at the clubs future in the short term, and this gets replicated in otherwise half competent businessmen running the clubs of which they are fans. granted, no-one else will take on the role, but to me it is a factor. i work in an industry where reputation is pretty much everything, and what happened with us last year was and still is humiliating. i dont think the full story has come out yet, and watching the same head-in-sand attittude being adopted by quite a few clubs' is worrying.

and the whole accounts thing - that to me is one of the loopholes. if you have to submit monthly accounts to the fai, then they should be the same or correlate with the years end return to the tax man. it wouldnt be hard for the fai to make that a stipulation - submit the same year end accounts to the fai at the same time as HMRC/Revenue Commissioners. It's all public documentation anyway, isn't it? deviate and you're gone, no fudging or similar.

as for the consequences - the only people directly affected will be those involved in the previous business (i think a punishment is something like banning from holding a compnay directorship for three years), and those involved in the new business who plough in their own money to get the thing going. its why im not overly keen on the current popular club model, a holding company behind it all, but to be honest i cant see any alternative that doesnt involve huge supporter involvement, and lets face it, its hard enough getting people to go to the matches.

oh, and stu, the ucd and dungannon issue was a bloody disgrace, but any derry fans who actually mentioned it (and other difficulties) were quite often shouted down. i think one individual became pretty much persona non grata with the previous setup. but then, half the time he's persona non grata with the fai as well.

[pineapple stu]

oh, and stu, the ucd and dungannon issue was a bloody disgrace, but any derry fans who actually mentioned it (and other difficulties) were quite often shouted down. i think one individual became pretty much persona non grata with the previous setup. but then, half the time he's persona non grata with the fai as well.
Not blaming Derry fans for it, just to be clear. Just pointing it out as another warning signs.

I agree with you on management accounts; they can tell what you want them to tell. I'd ask clubs to submit Revenue print-outs instead - an untamperable list from www.ros.ie that shows what you returned for each tax period and what and when you paid. Arguably more meaningful than management accounts too.

[shantykelly]

thinking about all this - is licencing really only bringing to light problems that would have existed anyway, they just maybe would have been easier to hide? there's been meltdowns and fancy financial footwork before (i think we're getting quite good at it to be honest), but maybe now licencing is bringing it all to a head, sort of like going cold turkey? just a thought that popped in.

[John83]

thinking about all this - is licencing really only bringing to light problems that would have existed anyway, they just maybe would have been easier to hide? there's been meltdowns and fancy financial footwork before (i think we're getting quite good at it to be honest), but maybe now licencing is bringing it all to a head, sort of like going cold turkey? just a thought that popped in.
Not really. Every club which has melted down in the past few years has done so without any help from licensing. If anything, Revenue are the big drivers in that regard - they targeted the league as high risk a few years back.

[shantykelly]

i dont think licencing is the cause of the problems, im just thinking that maybe its helping bring it to light a bit better than pre-licencing. like i said, just a thought.

[passerrby]

we simply need a rule that says if you renage on a contract( regardless if a deal is done )during the season or fail to meet you obligations then no prize money will be given out and a points deduction will begin your next season ,then we would see compliance.
but the will is not there because they know it would only impact on the so called bigger clubs

[geezer]

but just like health and safety rules or quality manuals they go way over the top and feel every eventuality has to be covered. Then it actually ends up completely killing everything including the very thing it was set up to help. Take the health boards needing electricians to change light bulbs. The 65% rule for example applies to players yet nothing stops a the opposite happening like when the ceo ends up getting the 65% and the players all 22 of them 35%??? its mad ted.

copies of the paye/prsi returns and vat returns with their back up would very quickly highlight if clubs were messing. A very simple income & expenditure like every GAA or any other club produces monthly would solve a lot. And my biggest bone of contention with the LOI/FAI over the years is why the bloody hell are they always trying things to restrict relegation for the top clubs and promotion for the minnows. Surely a relegation sometimes provides a chance for clubs & people in those clubs to renew themselves and can be healthy. A promotion for a minnow can carry them for 4 or 5 years. 2 or 3 years in a lower division every 20 or 30 years for a real top club is no harm and can be a catalyst for fresh people to come in and renew, excite and retain people for a decade.

Stop the interference, 2 up 2 down with play offs if they want should be allowed to happen for the next ten years and submit meaningful documentation monthly/quarterly that are open to audit of say 2 clubs a month at random would stop a lot of rubbish. The current submission of management accounts and whats actually done with them in abbotstown is a complete joke. A one day visit to my club by one qualified auditor (even a bookkeeper) would have halted very quickly the mess we now find ourselves in and would have been far more effective than reams and reams of form filling for the Licence that no one ever seems to check once or twice a season

[pineapple stu]

i dont think licencing is the cause of the problems, im just thinking that maybe its helping bring it to light a bit better than pre-licencing. like i said, just a thought.
Again, Cork and Derry went into liquidation before they were denied a licence. I don't see how you could bring things to light any later than that.

[marinobohs]

but just like health and safety rules or quality manuals they go way over the top and feel every eventuality has to be covered. Then it actually ends up completely killing everything including the very thing it was set up to help. Take the health boards needing electricians to change light bulbs. The 65% rule for example applies to players yet nothing stops a the opposite happening like when the ceo ends up getting the 65% and the players all 22 of them 35%??? its mad ted.

copies of the paye/prsi returns and vat returns with their back up would very quickly highlight if clubs were messing. A very simple income & expenditure like every GAA or any other club produces monthly would solve a lot. And my biggest bone of contention with the LOI/FAI over the years is why the bloody hell are they always trying things to restrict relegation for the top clubs and promotion for the minnows. Surely a relegation sometimes provides a chance for clubs & people in those clubs to renew themselves and can be healthy. A promotion for a minnow can carry them for 4 or 5 years. 2 or 3 years in a lower division every 20 or 30 years for a real top club is no harm and can be a catalyst for fresh people to come in and renew, excite and retain people for a decade.

Stop the interference, 2 up 2 down with play offs if they want should be allowed to happen for the next ten years and submit meaningful documentation monthly/quarterly that are open to audit of say 2 clubs a month at random would stop a lot of rubbish. The current submission of management accounts and whats actually done with them in abbotstown is a complete joke. A one day visit to my club by one qualified auditor (even a bookkeeper) would have halted very quickly the mess we now find ourselves in and would have been far more effective than reams and reams of form filling for the Licence that no one ever seems to check once or twice a season

The suggestion that the current licencing regulations are overzealous is quite simply laughable. given what has happened despite them it hardly bears thinking what would happen if the current (very limited) restraints were removed. That is aside from the fact that they are a uefa requirement.
The 65% rule was introduced to address the problem of wage inflation which (like elsewhere in europe) became a major problem in LOI. Lightening the regulation would simply encourage a return to the spendfest that has got so many clubs into trouble. PAYE/PRSI checks would simply encourage a return to the old "cash in hand" culture that was a mainstay in LOI in times past. Your quoting GAA clubs as an example is strange given the many dodgy accounting practices uncovered over the years :o.

Clubs need to decide do they actually want licencing and/or control by the FAI or not ? Do they want a rubber stamp to keep europe happy or serious regulation of the League ? The problem is clubs seeking to bend/break the rules at every oppurtunity not the rules themselves.

I have no idea RE your point about collusion to prevent "big clubs" being relegated, ask Shels, Cork, Derry about that.

[pineapple stu]

Cork and Derry weren't relegated.

And it's quite possible for the information required to be excessive - therefore overzealous licencing requirements - and yet for it all to be ignored in the end of the day.

All people are asking for is licencing that works. That last part is what we're missing at the moment.

[geezer]

[QUOTE=marinobohs;1430823]The suggestion that the current licencing regulations are overzealous is quite simply laughable.

Clubs need to decide do they actually want licencing and/or control by the FAI or not ?



Most of us want Licencing, but not for the sake of Licencing, Its football we are running not sarbanes oxley type regulation for the top 100 companies in the world.

All the form filling with no real auditing is a waste of time. Simple things can be put in to help clubs manage the process. The clubs themselves do need to take responsibility. A licencing system that nips things in the bud, spots things early would be of huge help to everyone

[marinobohs]

[QUOTE=geezer;1430828
Most of us want Licencing, but not for the sake of Licencing, Its football we are running not sarbanes oxley type regulation for the top 100 companies in the world.

All the form filling with no real auditing is a waste of time. Simple things can be put in to help clubs manage the process. The clubs themselves do need to take responsibility. A licencing system that nips things in the bud, spots things early would be of huge help to everyone[/QUOTE]

No argument on that but your earlier suggestion appeared to be that Licencing should be relaxed (apols if I got that wrong) and my point is that in the absense of a mindset change at club level (something I dont see currently) any such relaxation would simply exacerbate the current difficulties.

[gufcfan]

Snippet of an interesting article in the Galway City Tribune.

http://galwayunitedfc.net/index.php?app=ccs&module=pages&section=pages&id=2&record=20

[peadar1987]

If Galway were to go under, would the supporters reform the club, and start in the A Championship, or would they transfer their support to one of the two other Galway clubs in the League?

[higgins]

They need to be consistent that's all.
Too much room to change their mind on what punishment they give for what crime.

It needs to be more structured.
Black and White.

Too many clubs have got away with breaking rules over the past 3 years and it leads to more clubs thinking they can do likewise and in most cases they usually can.

If Galway have failed to pay 10,000 worth of wages at the end of the season they should be deducted points.
My own system would be that they are deducted a percentage of points the same as what they have failed to pay players.

So if the wage bill for 2010 was 200,000 and they failed to pay 10,000 they should get a 5% points deduction based on the assumption 5% of their points were won by paying 5% extra than they had!

[gufcfan]

If Galway were to go under, would the supporters reform the club, and start in the A Championship, or would they transfer their support to one of the two other Galway clubs in the League?
That's like suggesting if Bohs fans would support Bray if they went under.

[geezer]

They need to be consistent that's all.


So if the wage bill for 2010 was 200,000 and they failed to pay 10,000 they should get a 10% points deduction based on the assumption 10% of their points were won by paying 10% extra than they had!


That would be a great league to watch, its football also the current squad at GUFC are owed max 2000 as of today. Licence application is in on time with a number of outstanding issues but nothing hopefully GUFC cant overcome

[SkStu]

If Galway have failed to pay 10,000 worth of wages at the end of the season they should be deducted points.
My own system would be that they are deducted a percentage of points the same as what they have failed to pay players.


just out of interest what if Galway failed to pay 10000 of the wages they had agreed to pay as per their submissions to licensing but subsequently negotiated to pay 5000 which the players were happy to accept. Its not part of the licensing process and its not part of what they agreed to pay originally...

[Lim till i die]

That would be a great league to watch, its football also the current squad at GUFC are owed max 2000 as of today. Licence application is in on time with a number of outstanding issues but nothing hopefully GUFC cant overcome

Interesting choice of words ;)

[geezer]

who were let go during the year who are due monies and are registered with the FAI.
Work is ongoing on these lads who have been more than patient but hopefully they can be sorted soon. Everything possible is being done to address the issue for them

Its true to say the players have put up with awful ****e this year and licencing was not of much use until now. But only for the huge efforts being made by supporters who respect these players hugely

[WoodquayBoy]

If Galway were to go under, would the supporters reform the club, and start in the A Championship, or would they transfer their support to one of the two other Galway clubs in the League?

No offence but that has to be one of the dumbest questions ever! Give the history between the 3 clubs, there is no way United fanns will jump to Mervue or Devon. I'd hope and imagine there would be enough of us to pick up the pieces and start afresh

[peadar1987]

No offence but that has to be one of the dumbest questions ever! Give the history between the 3 clubs, there is no way United fanns will jump to Mervue or Devon. I'd hope and imagine there would be enough of us to pick up the pieces and start afresh

Given that I'm not a Galway native, I don't really know much about the history between the 3 clubs. I assumed from the fact that you and Mervue share a ground, and you and Salthill shared training facilities that the relationship was at least cordial

[geezer]

Given that I'm not a Galway native, I don't really know much about the history between the 3 clubs. I assumed from the fact that you and Mervue share a ground, and you and Salthill shared training facilities that the relationship was at least cordial


just all part of the GUFC 5 year strategy, The 2 first division clubs have over 40 players between them gaining LOI Experience. Then when they are good and ready the "big" club with the "premier" status gets to choose the best of them.

Its working well already there are a few GUFC supporters that support the other 2 clubs as well. tHE 2 "FIRST" division clubs dont impact even the slightest on attendances. Commercial sponsorship was an initial worry but that has collapsed for everyone

[WoodquayBoy]

Given that I'm not a Galway native, I don't really know much about the history between the 3 clubs. I assumed from the fact that you and Mervue share a ground, and you and Salthill shared training facilities that the relationship was at least cordial
Apologies. The Glway & District League own Terryland Park, both ourselves and Mervue pay rent to use it every week. We didn'lt share facilities with Devon, we rented theirs. We still owe them money for the use of their ground for training. Mervue and Devon would be United's 2 biggest critics within the Galway & District League set-up, from what I have been told if there is ever a debate about turfing United out of Terryland, it is led by those 2, there is zero love between us and them

[legendz]

What's the situation with Galway for next season? I heard Nick Leeson is staying.

[Dunny]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/leeson-stays-with-galway-2464716.html


Friday December 17 2010

NICK Leeson is set to stay on as chief executive of Galway United, WRITES DANIEL McDONNELL.

The Englishman was on the verge of departing the club due to their ongoing financial problems and recently offered the opinion that it would be difficult for them to keep him on the payroll.

However, Leeson has agreed to stay with the Tribesmen after discussions this week which will see the Galway United Supporters Trust (GUST) have a greater say in the running of the club.

Irish Independent

[Lim till i die]

So is he still evil or wha?!

[Terry]

2 members of the GUST have got onto the board of directors. Would need somebody to clarify this but, I believe one will be the treasurer and the other the PRO as well as something else?

[gufct]

Treasurer ,PRO and recording secretary.The future direction of the club will be lot clearer in January. The Independent piece was pulled from RTE's very poor report on the 6 News that had a load of errors in it.

[The Lep]

Hope all goes well.

[Terry]

Hope all goes well. there is a building belief in gufc in galway city and county now that the trust are involved. Season tickets sales have past the 300 mark and still flying. The tribal army scheme is growing everyday and clearing the bills making it possible to get the premier league license for the coming season. Now we need Sean to get the squad together in the new year and we'll be very happy indeed.

[legendz]

It seems to be a good move to get the trust involved, more clubs might be better off going down that road.

[Ezeikial]

It seems to be a good move to get the trust involved, more clubs might be better off going down that road.

Not necessarily the panacea that it may appear. Supporters Trusts by this or other names (Co-op, Members Club etc) have had a mixed track record. Consider the Bohs situation as an obvious example. Dundalk was run as a Supporters Co-Op up to 2006 and nearly went out of existence losing a reported €1m over the previous 4 years. Shamrock Rovers Members Club is an obvious example of it working.

Trusts / Members clubs tend to be an obvious alternate to extinction when a crises has arisen and Cork FORAS is an example of this. The Claret and Blue Club in Drogheda may also yet fall into the same category.

It may well be that the current boards at both Drogheda and Galway have exhausted themselves and see few viable alternatives.

[Nesta99]

Having the a Trust involved in running a club Ezeikial is surely a good thing! Im not sure but do Dundalk Supporter Trust not have a close and significant role in the running of Dundalk fc(in that are they not represented at board/management committee level?) or is it just an informal cooperation between the two?

It seems Supporters involvement with running GUFC has as much to do with building trust between club officials and supporters as much as additional manpower.

[pineapple stu]

Having the a Trust involved in running a club Ezeikial is surely a good thing!
In fairness, he gave a couple of valid cases where it's not helped. You could add Stockport County to that as well; I think they went into administration while run by the Supporters' Trust, and sold up.