Europe 2011

[Dodge]

Might as well get it going.

Rovers will enter the Champions League play offs in the 2nd qualifying round. Their co-efficient will be 2.741

That was good enough to be seeded last year but some teams/countries that were below that last year are now above it (Ekranes (Lit), HJK Helsinki (Fin)) so it's borderline whether they're seeded or not.

Sligo's rank is 1.991. They'll enter either at 2nd Qualifying round or 3rd qualifying round (depending on how results go our way and whether the Europa League winner qualifies for the CL). They won't be seeded for either.

At the moment Bohs will enter at the 2nd QR with a rank of 3.741 That'll be enough to have them seeded.

If Bohs don't get the license Fingal will enter at the 2nd QR with a rank of 2.241. That makes them unlikely to be seeded. If Bohs are OK, Fingal will enter at the 1st QR and will be seeded

If Bohs are out, Pats take the spot and will enter in the first QR with a seeding of 4.241 which will have them seeded. If they then progress to the 2nd round they'll also be seeded in that.

I reckon all us geeks can keep talk of potential oppenents etc to this thread

[pineapple stu]

Probably highly unlikely to occur, but where would Dundalk fit in?

[Louth4sam]

IF Bohs and Fingal both go, Pats will be seeded in second. Dundalk will be seeded in first and likely to be seeded in second.

[pineapple stu]

That's the kind of mad talk we need to tide us over till March.

[DaveyCakes]

Champions League qualified teams so far:

First Qualifying round:
----------------------
Faroe Islands: HB Tórshavn

Second Qualifying round:
-----------------------
Norway: Rosenborg
Sweden: Malmö FF
Belarus: BATE Borisov
Republic of Ireland: Shamrock Rovers
Finland: HJK Helsinki
Lithuania: Ekranas
Latvia: Skonto Riga
Iceland: Breiðablik
Kazakhstan: Tobol Kostanay
Estonia: Flora Tallinn
Armenia: Pyunik

Third Qualifying Round:
-----------------------
None

Group stage:
--------------
Russia: Zenit St. Petersburg


CSKA Moscow and Rubin Kazan have qualified, but the round is not yet decided.

[DaveyCakes]

Europa League:

First qualifying round:
----------------------
Norway: Tromsø
Sweden: Elfsborg
Republic of Ireland: Sporting Fingal
Finland: Honka
Lithuania: Žalgiris Vilnius
Latvia: Ventspils
Latvia: Liepājas Metalurgs
Iceland: ÍBV Vestmannaeyar
Iceland: KR Reykjavík
Kazakhstan: Aktobe
Kazakhstan: Irtysh Pavlodar
Estonia: Levadia Tallinn
Estonia: Narva Trans
Armenia: Banants
Armenia: Ulisses
Faroe Islands: NSÍ Runavík
Faroe Islands: ÍF Fuglafjørður

Second qualifying round:
------------------------
Norway: Vålerenga
Sweden: Örebro
Belarus: Shakhtar Soligorsk
Republic of Ireland: Sligo Rovers
Republic of Ireland: Bohemians (hmmmm....)
Finland: TPS
Finland: KuPS
Lithuania: Sūduva Marijampolė
Iceland:
Kazakhstan: Lokomotiv Astana
Faroe Islands: EB/Streymur

Third qualifying round:
----------------------
Norway: Strømsgodset
Sweden: Helsingborg

The first round place for 3rd place in the Belarussian league will be decided this weeked (FK Minsk or Dinamo Minsk), and the third qualifying round and playoff round for 5th and 4th, respectively, in the Russian League will be sorted in the next 2 weeks (2 from Spartak Moscow, Lokomotiv Moscow, Spartak Nalchik, and Dinamo Moscow). After that it all goes quiet till April!

[Dodge]

Dundalk's ranking is 2.241 (ie same as Fingal's). I doubt the would be seeded in the 2nd Round (if they qualified from the first, and thats if Bohs and Fingal drop out :) )

[DaveyCakes]

I love threads like this. Am I a geek?

[Dodge]

Yes. or a nerd. I can't tell this early.

[pineapple stu]

I love threads like this. Am I a geek?
"Interested in the world about you" usually gets you away with it.

[Louth4sam]

Dundalk's ranking is 2.241 (ie same as Fingal's). I doubt the would be seeded in the 2nd Round (if they qualified from the first, and that's if Bohs and Fingal drop out :) )

It can't be. Dundalk have a win and a draw from this years Europa league. If these are added to the leagues seeding it should scrape Dundalk into the seeded side of the draw should we qualify over next few seasons.

[Dodge]

It can't be. Dundalk have a win and a draw from this years Europa league. If these are added to the leagues seeding it should scrape Dundalk into the seeded side of the draw should we qualify over next few seasons.

It is the same.

Dundalk's win & draw only counted towards the Ireland general score.

The individual club scores on top of that are based on (for the qualifiers) the round you exited. In this example Fingal and Dundalk bot left at the same stages

You can see the current rankings here

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2011.html

Teams in Blue are still in Europe. Teams in Green are from countries with teams in Europe. Their ranking is likely to rise

EDIT; if a club doesn't have an individual score, they'll receive the national score (So anyone but the 6 mentioned here (or Derry) would get the Ireland score of 1.741

[Louth4sam]

It is the same.

Dundalk's win & draw only counted towards the Ireland general score.

The individual club scores on top of that are based on (for the qualifiers) the round you exited. In this example Fingal and Dundalk bot left at the same stages

You can see the current rankings here

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2011.html

Teams in Blue are still in Europe. Teams in Green are from countries with teams in Europe. Their ranking is likely to rise

EDIT; if a club doesn't have an individual score, they'll receive the national score (So anyone but the 6 mentioned here (or Derry) would get the Ireland score of 1.741

That's disappointing. I thought that the 1st qualifying round would count towards the club score too. Well I suppose it's still a handy 90k prize money of you get a favourable draw.

[PartySaint]

Europa League:

First qualifying round:
----------------------
Norway: Tromsø
Sweden: Elfsborg
Republic of Ireland: Sporting Fingal
Finland: Honka
Lithuania: Žalgiris Vilnius
Latvia: Ventspils
Latvia: Liepājas Metalurgs
Iceland: ÍBV Vestmannaeyar
Iceland: KR Reykjavík
Kazakhstan: Aktobe
Kazakhstan: Irtysh Pavlodar
Estonia: Levadia Tallinn
Estonia: Narva Trans
Armenia: Banants
Armenia: Ulisses
Faroe Islands: NSÍ Runavík
Faroe Islands: ÍF Fuglafjørður

Second qualifying round:
------------------------
Norway: Vålerenga
Sweden: Örebro
Belarus: Shakhtar Soligorsk
Republic of Ireland: Sligo Rovers
Republic of Ireland: Bohemians (hmmmm....)
Finland: TPS
Finland: KuPS
Lithuania: Sūduva Marijampolė
Iceland:
Kazakhstan: Lokomotiv Astana
Faroe Islands: EB/Streymur

Third qualifying round:
----------------------
Norway: Strømsgodset
Sweden: Helsingborg

The first round place for 3rd place in the Belarussian league will be decided this weeked (FK Minsk or Dinamo Minsk), and the third qualifying round and playoff round for 5th and 4th, respectively, in the Russian League will be sorted in the next 2 weeks (2 from Spartak Moscow, Lokomotiv Moscow, Spartak Nalchik, and Dinamo Moscow). After that it all goes quiet till April!

Thats a little to close to TNS for Bohs fans

Just to go off topic for a second, What is the biggest away following for a LOI club in Europe??

My guess would be
Derry away to Gretna
Pats away to Celtic
Rovers away to Juve

But I have no idea what the numbers were like when LOI clubs played IL clubs in Europe during the 60's 70's and 80's

[thischarmingman]

Just to go off topic for a second, What is the biggest away following for a LOI club in Europe??


[Getting the obvious out of the way early on]

We took X to Derry.

[/Getting the obvious out of the way early on]

[hedderman]

[Getting the obvious out of the way early on]

We took X to Derry.

[/Getting the obvious out of the way early on]

Ah but sure we took over 2000 from Derry to Fir Park, which would most likely beat any away following at the Brandywell. :p

[Candystripe]

Thats a little to close to TNS for Bohs fans

Just to go off topic for a second, What is the biggest away following for a LOI club in Europe??

My guess would be
Derry away to Gretna
Pats away to Celtic
Rovers away to Juve

But I have no idea what the numbers were like when LOI clubs played IL clubs in Europe during the 60's 70's and 80's

Probably Derry away to Gretna would be the biggest, 3,000 was the guestimate at the time closely followed by Derry once again away to PSG with 2,400 guestimate.

[Candystripe]

As I was helping sell the tickets for that game,we had 2,300+ sold the day before the game and tickets were available the day of the game.

Enjoy this footage.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WelpDm_Scd8&feature=fvw[QUOTE=hedderman;1425572]Ah but sure we took over 2000 from Derry to Fir Park, which would most likely beat any away following at the Brandywell. :p/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxWZQZcX44k&feature=related

[BonnieShels]

Europe 2011... sigh...

[gspain]

Technically one of the Cork Hibs v Pezoporikos games in 1972 was the away tie but both played at Flower Lodge. Hibs were getting big crowds at the Lodge in those days so probably more than 3,000.

In reality Derry at Gretna is definitely the biggest away support. There was nothing like that back in the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's.

Limerick brought 60 to Madrid in 1980, 10 to Southampton in 81 (half were my mum, Dad me and 2 brothers), 30 on the fans trip to Alkmaar with about another ten independently or staying on from the Holland v Ireland game the previous week. I don't think there were any fans in Berne 60, Sofia 65 or Turin 71.

I do know a Shamrock Rovers fan who was at Old Trafford in 1957 (went over on the boat). He is still a season ticket holder along with his sons and grandchildren.

[pineapple stu]

Technically one of the Cork Hibs v Pezoporikos games in 1972 was the away tie but both played at Flower Lodge. Hibs were getting big crowds at the Lodge in those days so probably more than 3,000.
On that, I see Bohs played Omonia Nicosia (http://www.rsssf.com/ec/Ireland.html#Cyprus) in Cork in 1978/79. Anyone (i.e. gspain!) know what the story with that one was?

[legendz]

I think Shamrock Rovers are capable of matching the run of Bohemians conquerors and make the Europa League play-offs. Depends on the draw of course. Hopefully Sligo will enjoy some success as well and get by two rounds.

[marinobohs]

On that, I see Bohs played Omonia Nicosia (http://www.rsssf.com/ec/Ireland.html#Cyprus) in Cork in 1978/79. Anyone (i.e. gspain!) know what the story with that one was?

Cant remember for sure offhand but think it may have been a result of our "encounter" with Newcastle Utd at Dalymount which resulted in our next european home game having to be played a certain distance away from Dublin. Open to correction on this one if anyone else knows exactly.

[thischarmingman]

So much depends on the draw but I could see Sligo doing well in Europe next season if they hold onto their team. They remind me of ourselves in 2005-6 and there seems to be the same belief around the team as there was with us then.

[sligored]

dodge , if sligo get seeded to the 3rd round , does that mean we would get 90,000 x 3 rounds or is it 90k for each round played in.

[Dodge]

dodge , if sligo get seeded to the 3rd round , does that mean we would get 90,000 x 3 rounds or is it 90k for each round played in.

You'd only get the 90k afaik.

[Rasputin]

Looking at the calibre of teams in the second qualifying round it will not be easy to get through it.
But if we keep our team and play like we did against Bohs in the semi final then we could very well get some decent results.
Anything to gain some credibility after losing to that pub team from Albania (great trip all the same).

[MariborKev]

We took 4 to FK Lynn in the 60s. Including one lad who flew from Saudi Arabia!

[The Lep]

You'd only get the 90k afaik.

Plus 10k training money. Sligo will be in the second qualifying round as cup winners. Unseeded. If they beat a seeded side then they get that side's points and possibly be seeded in the next round depending on the strength of the side they beat.

[Dodge]

Plus 10k training money. Sligo will be in the second qualifying round as cup winners. Unseeded. If they beat a seeded side then they get that side's points and possibly be seeded in the next round depending on the strength of the side they beat.

Only on the basis that the 3rd QR draw is made before the 2nd QR is complete (as this year)

[The Lep]

With League of Wales having gone to a shortened 12 team league this year this is how the 3rd euro spot gets decided.

"Next year, under the league's new fixture format, the third Europa League spot will be determined by a play-off involving the clubs finishing in third to seventh places (or eighth if the Welsh Cup winners finish in one of those positions). "

Would you support that format if our Premier Division went to a 12 team or more league?

[Louth4sam]

With League of Wales having gone to a shortened 12 team league this year this is how the 3rd euro spot gets decided.

"Next year, under the league's new fixture format, the third Europa League spot will be determined by a play-off involving the clubs finishing in third to seventh places (or eighth if the Welsh Cup winners finish in one of those positions). "

Would you support that format if our Premier Division went to a 12 team or more league?

No way. You would have had both us and UCD competing for the spot when Fingal, Pats and Sligo were more deserving of it. The third best team in the league deserves to play in Europe not the seventh.

[osarusan]

Agreed with Louth4sam.

I'm against playoffs of any kind, so I don't see the point of this.

[Dodge]

Might as well go the US route and make everything playoffs.

League placing only dictates seeding (and home advantage).

Play offs to decide every position. Can you imagine the exictement of the 7th/8th place play off?!

[BonnieShels]

Is third to seventh not 5 teams?
Id be more inclined to give that 3rd spot to the league cup winners.

[paudie]

Is third to seventh not 5 teams?
Id be more inclined to give that 3rd spot to the league cup winners.

Don't agree. a Setanta place is enough for the LC winners.

Teams don't take the LC seriously enough for it to merit a place in europe.

[sligoman]

Don't agree. a Setanta place is enough for the LC winners.

Teams don't take the LC seriously enough for it to merit a place in europe.That's the clubs problem though. If there was a place in Europe on offer, you can be sure clubs would be going all out to win it. I still don't agree that LC deserves a Euro spot though.

[legendz]

That's it, if their is a European place available for the LC and even a final at the Aviva, it would be taken more seriously.
I don't have the problem with play-offs others seem to have. They create excitement and avoid dead rubbers. It can also be viewed as a seperate competition for Europa League qualification. As long as the Champions League is based on league placing, I don't see the problem.
I think the LoI should bring in the play-offs. Everyone will know the rules before the beginning of the season. Win the league, win the cup and/or finish second in the league, qualification is guaranteed for Europe, unless of some licensing issue.
Have four teams play-off then for the last Europa League place. It's been run very successfully in the Dutch league.
This year it would've been:
Sporting Fingal v UCD
St. Pats v Dundalk
Winners then play in the final. Highest ranked side from the league always has home advantage in the second leg. It would not work in a league where teams play 4 times. In a league where sides only play once at home and once away, it'd work best.

There's another play-off system which would also be worth looking at as well. This would involve 8 teams, one off games and is run successfully in the AFL.
It'd work that teams ranked 1-4 would play against each other and sides ranked 5-8 would play each other. The two winners of 1-4 would advance to the semi's while the two loser of 1-4 would play the two winners of 5-8 in the quarters. The winners of the quaters would then naturally advance to the semi's and so on. This play-off system will work in a 16+ team Premier, giving sides 3rd to 10th something to play for while the advantage still does lie with finishing as high up the table as possible. Sometimes a fresh approach has to be taken.
This is how it works in the AFL:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/91/AFL_finals_v2.png/800px-AFL_finals_v2.png

[pineapple stu]

Sometimes a fresh approach has to be taken.
And sometimes it doesn't. That AFL system looks daft. And the Dutch league play-off system has been pared down drastically after complaints that it was stupid.

If you get third in the league, you deserve Europe, end of story.

[marinobohs]

And sometimes it doesn't. That AFL system looks daft. And the Dutch league play-off system has been pared down drastically after complaints that it was stupid.

If you get third in the league, you deserve Europe, end of story.

+ 1. Dont see much wrong with current allocation, so if it aint broken..........:o

[Charlie Darwin]

Why does finishing 5th get you an easier game than finishing 1st? Daft Australians.

[legendz]

For arguments sake if a 16 team Premier is brought in, the likes of UCD and Dundalk would've been in mid-table without a whole lot to play for. The play-offs would at least give them something to play for.
The play-offs worked well in division one. Until the last 2-3 weeks, the top 6 were still eyeing promotion, be it winning the division or getting to the play-offs.

[Dodge]

BTW I can guarantee you that people advocating European play offs wuod be the first to moan when our 7th place league finisher gets thiumped in Europe

[pineapple stu]

Why does finishing 5th get you an easier game than finishing 1st? Daft Australians.
Cos if you win, you skip a round and if you lose, you're not knocked out.

[legendz]

BTW I can guarantee you that people advocating European play offs wuod be the first to moan when our 7th place league finisher gets thiumped in Europe

I accept the arguments of those against play-offs but I still don't agree. When the Europa League was formed and the Intertoto finished, the LoI did gain an extra EL place. If the rules are laid about before the beginning of a season I can't see how there can be too many complaints. Finish in the top two, European football is guaranteed. Finish short of the top two, there's a second chance through an end of season play-off competition. Play-offs have been brought in for a number of reason. They do avoid more dead rubbers and they give more teams something to aim for. The highest ranked side in the play-offs are given the advantage of the home tie for the second-leg etc. The two play-off ideas mooted would take 4 matchdays. The current relegation/promotion play-off take 3 matchdays. A Friday night finish to the season at a league ground, with European football to play for, it's not a bad finish to the season.
This year for example:
Imagine if the great FAI Cup final was played in mid-October. If this was followed by the 3 or 4 remaining rounds of the league with Shamrock Rovers and Bohemians battling for the title and then a Europa League play-off series. It'd have been some finish to the season, with a lot of high profile games.

[marinobohs]

I accept the arguments of those against play-offs but I still don't agree. When the Europa League was formed and the Intertoto finished, the LoI did gain an extra EL place. If the rules are laid about before the beginning of a season I can't see how there can be too many complaints. Finish in the top two, European football is guaranteed. Finish short of the top two, there's a second chance through an end of season play-off competition. Play-offs have been brought in for a number of reason. They do avoid more dead rubbers and they give more teams something to aim for. The highest ranked side in the play-offs are given the advantage of the home tie for the second-leg etc. The two play-off ideas mooted would take 4 matchdays. The current relegation/promotion play-off take 3 matchdays. A Friday night finish to the season at a league ground, with European football to play for, it's not a bad finish to the season.
This year for example:
Imagine if the great FAI Cup final was played in mid-October. If this was followed by the 3 or 4 remaining rounds of the league with Shamrock Rovers and Bohemians battling for the title and then a Europa League play-off series. It'd have been some finish to the season, with a lot of high profile games.

Based on the presumption that it would lead to higher profile games I could see some sense in it but would not take that for granted. Various experiments tried in the past (top six / bottom six, 4-3-2-1- points etc) did not lead to an increase in publicity and it could be arguable led to a decrease in credibility for the League.

[Dodge]

Imagine if the great FAI Cup final was played in mid-October. If this was followed by the 3 or 4 remaining rounds of the league

That happened the first couple of years of summer football. Pats averaged about 1,800 before the cup final. lost it, and averaged about 700 after it.

Awful idea.

[osarusan]

If the rules are laid about before the beginning of a season I can't see how there can be too many complaints.
Nobody is complaining at being ambushed by playoffs at the end of the season. People complain because they (and I) see it as unfair/pointless to have playoffs, or at least the kind of playoffs you're talking about.

The purpose of a league is to determine over 36 games which teams are stronger than other teams. At the end of the season, the league table doesn't lie. Why do you then want to have playoffs in which a team that has shown itself to be superior to another team over the course of the league has to play that team again in a once off/two leg playoff?

For excitement and to reduce dead rubbers? They're part of football, unexciting though they may be. And how exciting is it going to be in the last few weeks of the regular season when teams in say 4th or 5th are assured of a playoff spot with 2 or 3 games to go?

[pineapple stu]

Also, I quite like dead rubbers at times. They mean we're safe (or already down). We've had bugger all of them the past decade.

[Charlie Darwin]

Cos if you win, you skip a round and if you lose, you're not knocked out.
Ah, OK. Still seems more like an excuse to have more games than more competition.