Beheading of American Civilian

[4tothefloor]

First and foremost, this was an absolute disgrace. I think things are about the get a lot worse from here on in. These people have no respect for life at all, then again their behaviour is being fuelled by dumbass Americans and their treatment of Iraqi POW. I've been checking out a few Islamic forums and most seem to sickened by this as well.

For any of those who want to see the video in full, I can post up a link if anyone wants it - I think people should see this for what it is worth. It shows that both sides are as bad as each other. It makes you think what are they going to resort to next? The poor guy didn't know he was going to be killed at all, he just thought he was being filmed as a POW and as a message to the American authorities. Must be horrific on his family.

[Plastic Paddy]

The latest barbaric action in a barbaric war. God rest Nick Berg and all the innocents of whatever background or calling, and be with their families and loved ones.

RIP

:ball: PP

[4tothefloor]

Can't think of anything I'd less rather see...

Well thats why I said i'd only put up the link if people asked. Some people wouldn't dare watch it, while others have said they watched it out of respect for Nick Berg, that he didn't die for nothing etc. My worrie is that we're going to see a lot more of this type of thing. On another forum one guy said 'what happens if these extremists all over the world start picking on ordinary civilians and decapitating them, in response to the maltreatment of Iraqi POW'? Frightening thought, and I wouldn't put it past them. You'll have Islamic extremists the world over celebrating over this video, and there's nothing stopping them going out and replicating it. Crazy.

[Declan_Michael]

Horrific yes, but no different to a guy strapping bombs to himself and setting it off, in say, a nightclub. People are simple shocked because as violence goes a beheading is rare and extreme. Bombs explode every day in iraq, scores of people killed and nobody looks twice. Just an endless cycle of violence. America has simply created more extremists by going to war in Iraq.

[liam88]

The whole thing is just really really sad :(
RIP to all of them-whoever you are, wherever you come from.

I heard a song- it's about sept. 11 but really about innocent people dying anywhere.
The chorus goes,
"And we don't know why,
The innocent die,
Will this world never find a way to change?
And we don't why,
But we know it's not right,
DOn't know why so many had to die"
Sum's it up really :(

[brendy_éire]

Just watched the video. Shocking enough, I suppose, though nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be. Have seen worse stuff on documentaries.

Hmm, guess that's part of the inevitable price that the Americans pay for their adventure in Iraq. Makes ye wonder where all this will end.

[cookie]

to settle an argument...

were the prisioners forced to have sex with each other?

[dahamsta]

The video is on the Memory Hole, which you can find with Google. Please don't post the URL here, people tend to click first and whine later that they weren't warned. I've seen several flame wars about this topic today, decided I don't want to see it meself. Can't see it'll achieve anything.

adam

[4tothefloor]

Thats the link I have as well Adam. As you say, some people can be offended by stuff like this. They'll watch it, and then complain later. Thats why I didn't put the link up, pm'd it to a few that asked instead. Personally, i don't see what the problem is. This is something that is real, it has happened, and it could very well happen again. There's no point in hiding from it or running away from it.

[4tothefloor]

to settle an argument...

were the prisioners forced to have sex with each other?

Where did you hear this? Heard they were forced to lie on top of each other naked, and forced to take part in human pyramids. Rumours of making the prisoners masterbate as well. Come to think of, it's hardly surprising that this has happened, is it? The things that the prisoners were allegedly forced to do are all very sacrilege to Islamic peoples beliefs.

[Metrostars]

to settle an argument...

were the prisioners forced to have sex with each other?

They were forced to simulate sex acts. Which in any case is not much fun.


...The things that the prisoners were allegedly forced to do are all very sacrilege to Islamic peoples beliefs.

And chopping off civilian's heads in the name of Allah is?

[brendy_éire]

And chopping off civilian's heads in the name of Allah is?

In an interpretation of the Koran, it probably is. The same can be said for the Bible mind. Religious zealots can use the Bible to justify the worst evils in the world (such as murder, capitalism, ethnic cleanising, persecution of homosexuals, the right to impose your religion on someone else). Jews use the Torah as justification for their occupation of Palestine and their murdering of thousands of innocent Palestinians ("an eye for an eye").
There will always be people who take their religious beliefs to extremes. The people who beheaded your man are no different from the likes of Bush and Sharon. They're all right wing fundementalists blinding following what they believe their god wants them to do.

[4tothefloor]

Listen, the reason they 'chopped' his head off is because of what went before i.e. the Americans mistreating and abusing Iraqi prisoners. It was an act of revenge. This would not have happened were it not for the worldwide pictures of American troops abusing Iraqi prisoners. The extremists attitude now is probably lets give it back twice as bad as they dished it out. I have absolutely no sympathy, zero, zilch, for American troops or American people who back what is going on in Iraq. I feel sorry for Nick Berg (RIP) and his family for the way he died and the fact that he was an innocent civilian - but what the hell was he doing there in the first place? He had no business there, he should never have went there. The American troops should never have went their either in the first place.

If they wanted to invade and bring down Sadaam, they should have had a contingency plan in place first for the setting up of an Iraqi governing body to take the place of Sadaam's regime immediately after his fall, an obvious eventuality. They should then have left Iraq within a few weeks. At least then the Iraqi people would be dealing with an Iraqi administration, and nothing else. At the moment they see the Americans as taking over their country for their own gain (i.e. oil, big construction contracts etc), and with the behaviour of the American troops towards POW, you can't blame them for being ****ed off. We're only hearing about this stuff now, but it's probably common knowledge to the people of Iraq all along. Sadaam has been captured long ago, there were no, as the Americans annoyingly call them, Weapons of Mass Destruction, or Biological warfare. So why are the Americans/British still in Iraq?

[brendy_éire]

I feel sorry for Nick Berg (RIP) and his family for the way he died and the fact that he was an innocent civilian - but what the hell was he doing there in the first place? He had no business there, he should never have went there.

His innocence is questionable. He was in Iraq to make money. He owned a company that put up telecommunications towers, or something similar. He supported Bush's foreign policy. Why? Because he benefited financially from it. He supported the war. He took a very active role in the plundering of Iraq. He paid the price. I have no sympathy.

[4tothefloor]

Agree Brendy. I have sympathy for the way he died, I suppose thats having seen the video, and then his family back in Philly. But really, what did he expect? As I said, the Americans are only in Iraq now for their own financial gain. I have no sympathy in that regard. And god forbid, but if every American soldier was killed tomorrow, i'd still have no sympathy. Bottom line is, they should not be there. Americans really are, to coin one of their own words, dumbasses for supporting Bush. If they re-elect this guy, they are going to be hated the world over. Mayday in Dublin will look like handbags compared to the reaction Bush will get over here i'd say. Can't wait!

[Metrostars]

His innocence is questionable. He was in Iraq to make money. He owned a company that put up telecommunications towers, or something similar. He supported Bush's foreign policy. Why? Because he benefited financially from it. He supported the war. He took a very active role in the plundering of Iraq. He paid the price. I have no sympathy.

In the past he went to Third World countries to help and teach people about radio equipment. True, any westerner willingly going to anywhere in the Middle East right now must have a skrew loose but it certainly doesnt mean it had it coming.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/berg.victim.ap/index.html

[pete]

Americans should make their own politicians culpable for suggestion people travel into such a situation.

[Dodge]

Saw the video. Unbelievable stuff. It'll probably be on some documentary about the Iraqi troubles in 10/15 years.

Did anyone see where his family made accusations about the American troops in Iraq? Saw a bit of CBS news last night but my mind wasn't concentrating. I think he was "detained" by US troops for a couple of days in just before his kidnapping

[Dodge]

Thought I'd look it up myself....
------

According to his family, Berg, a small telecommunications business owner, spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But he was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24.

The family says Berg was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days.

On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military.

The next day Berg was released, the family said. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated. His family last heard from him April 9 but it was unclear when and where he was abducted.

[b]FULL STORY{/b]
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/11/iraq/main616842.shtml

[Metrostars]

Apparently, US officials offered Berg a flight out in early April but he refused. They told him it was unsafe for westerners to be traveling around Iraq unprotected.

[mickrev]

This email doin the rounds.




I did not write this but it is interesting none the less even if I do
not have a name and source.
The gist is that Nick Berg's killing was a political decision by the
U.S ...............



1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis

2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any
remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be
struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional
torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was
allegedly
prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite
"national
security" issues for witholding additional materials.

3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S.
issue
(compare with pictures at Guantanamo).

5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit).
Either
he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit
and
all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a
chance to
change).

6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a)
Berg
sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with
hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost
motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up
on
the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize
what
page he's on?

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were
still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood
would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no
visible
blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down,
Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's
grip.

13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even
open.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was
clearly
dubbed in.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing
information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.

I believe that Berg (or this lookalike character) was first killed
(perhaps
by lethal injection, poisoning, etc.), then decapitated after dead
(explains
lack of blood spraying everywhere). Berg was killed by Al-Quaeda (known
to
be a CIA - Mossad joint venture). Berg video released at height of
furor
over U.S. torture of Iraqis and just before Bush was to decide whether
to
release additional torture videos. Now torture videos will be witheld
from
public for reasons of national security. Now "patriots" everywhere will
laud the virtues of U.S. torture of "enemies". Sensitivity level of
public
gets heightened in terms of what's acceptable treatment of prisoners.
Juxtaposed with decapitation, piling naked men into pyramid is nothing.
Such treatment will be considered more and more acceptable even in
domestic
situations. George W. Bush sleeps well tonight while Berg family lives
in
torture. Serves Berg's father right for opposing Bush and the war of
aggression against Iraq.

[Metrostars]

OK, sure.

Just like the one were the US flew it's own planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. :confused:

[NJTom]

It's all part of a giant conspiracy, the CIA, FBI, Hilary Clinton, and the Pope are all involved.

[Plastic Paddy]

Well, you can make light of any supposed conspiracy Tom, but let's not forget the irrefutable fact that the Bush and bin Laden families have been in bed together for three generations; a fact that the Pentagon in partnership with its friends in the media (Disney et al) is only too keen to cover up. Fahrenheit 911, anyone?

Anyway, I digress. God rest Nick Berg.

:ball: PP

[brendy_éire]

Interesting argument on the set-up by the US. Wouldn't put it past them. It does sound the dodgy the way he was arrested by Iraqis, handed over to the US, he was given no access to a lawyer, then released him after his family were going to court over it. Something suspious about the whole thing.

[4tothefloor]

I've watched the video again there, and points 6 to 12 seem to be spot on alright. The only thing I would say is that there was some blood on the floor when his head was being severed, but this would be expected. There was no splattering of blood. Berg was motionless and I have to say, definately appeared dead before decapitation. He didn't struggle or move at all. The audio dubbing of the video throws you off when you're watching it. And if i'm not mistaken, the video time also jumps from 2 hrs 44 mins to 13 hrs 45 mins, at the time of contact between the knife and Bergs neck! What were they doing for the 10 hours in between?

Having applied the above information to the video, I'm now convinced there's definately some kind of an American involvement in this. Some shower of ****s if proves true

[Ice13]

:mad: Could someone please send me a copy of the video. I think its time to start hunting these dogs down and show no mercy on them just as they don't show mercy on the prople they murder.

[Dodge]

Haven't watched the video again and won't but forwarded the conspiracy theory to a mate of mine who has studied the middle east extensively and he pointed out...

----

Hey I'm doing overtime here....Very interesting what is written below. I saw
that on the news last night about Berg being held by Iraqi police and US
forces. Very, very strange !!! Anyway I love a good conspiracy theory but
the person who wrote this stuff makes a good case!! Although I do have a
problem with point 9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

Some of the Arabs being tortured by US soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison have a
light complexion and those photos are real. Not all Arabs have a set
pigmentation contrary to popular perception. There are Arabs from old
Bedouin tribes that roamed present day Syria, Jordan and Iraq who were light
skinned and some of whom had blue eyes. Granted it is a bit coincidental that
all the Arabs in the video have a light complexion !! Also point "14) Alleged
"scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly dubbed in."
Well I'm sorry but if I was getting my head cut off I'd scream like a woman
too !!!

Remember Berg was Jewish. Do you remember Daniel Pearl ?? The Jewish Wall
Sreet Journal journalist ?? He too was decapitated by Islamic Militants in
Pakistan two years ago and no-one suggested his execution was staged !! His
wife is now trying to have him listed as a victim of 9-11 in order to secure
compensation. Like Pearl, Berg carried a Jewish cloth, symbolic of his
faith and it would have been known to Arabs the same way a medal of the
Virgin Mary can distinguish a Roman Catholic. Berg's father believes that
his son's Jewishness "clinched it"....Anyway nothing would surprise me and
teh writer raises some interesting points... Did you see The Sun today ??
They printed pictures of Iraqi detainees smiling and enjoying luxuries that
the British supplied them with. Ironically the camp was being guarded by 2
Para...the same crowd who distinguished themselves in Derry in January 1972.
Anyway the pictures in The Sun are excellent propoganda.....
-----

In another e-mail, he points out that the lack of blood could be explained by the skill (for want of a better word) of the killer. If you've been trained in that sort of thing, you probably know how not to cover yourself in blood...

[Dodge]

Amid all the talk of faked events and conspiracy theories and the British Army, interesting to note that it looks increasingly likely that the photos of allleged British abuse printed in the Mirror were fake...
I don't think there was any doubt that those Pics were fake. mirror editor scrambling for his career saying that the British MoD haven't "conclusively" proved that they weren't taken in Iraq. Idiot.

I thought the British government and their military handled this very well. When they emerged they condemned all negative actions and sought to find the truth quickly. Even when announcing that they were fake, there was no triumphalism in it. Anyone see the Sun yesterday with iraqi prisoners laughing with their UK captors. Paras no less... Massive propaganda war on here folks

I still think the Washongton Post/CBS photos have done all the damage and the Mirror ones, even if true, wouldn't have added to the outrage worldwide. I britain certainly but not worldwide...

[dahamsta]

The only evidence supposedly proving that the pictures are fake is that a truck depicted in the photos wasn't in Iraq. The Army has made this assertion, and the Army hasn't produced the truck. That's pretty shaky evidence imho.

I'm not saying the pictures aren't fake, I'm just saying they're going to have to do better than that for me to believe them. And the accusations of abuse by the Red Cross and Amnesty remain. They're playing a shell game.

adam

[Dodge]

There was also the issue of the guns not being the standard issue for soldiers serving in Iraq.

[max power]

just seen the video and its grusome stuff indeed, but that is the society we live in and a lot worse has been done in the past but the technology wasn't there to show it to us, ww1, ww2, vietnam, cambodia etc

[Jim Smith]

While obviously not proof, the reason I suspect that the photos are fakes is that there is no way that the Brits would have let these photos get into the public domain.

While I have absolutely no doubt that the abuse that the Iraqis are being subjected to is planned and carefully thought out,I wonder what actually goes on in military prisons under 'normal' circumstances...

[brendy_éire]

There was also the issue of the guns not being the standard issue for soldiers serving in Iraq.

The ones in the photos are Mark1, the British MOD is claiming that soliders had a Mark 2 variation. However, British soldiers are claiming that there wasn't enough Mark 2s to go around, so they had to use Mark 1. Pretty believeable considering the lack of boots, body armour, etc.
Not sure whether to trust the photos, but I'm certain that that type of thing is going on anyway.

[Peadar]

I'm not saying the pictures aren't fake, I'm just saying they're going to have to do better than that for me to believe them.
adam

The story I heard, which is very plauseable, was that the paper in question were offered the story but suggested it would be worth a lot more if there were some pictures. All of a sudden the greedy bastads selling the story came back with pictures depicting clearly what they'd implied had happened. Unlike the US pictures though, no distinguishing details of the troops were pictured.

With regard to the US abuse, why the hell were they letting themselves be photographed?

[brendy_éire]

With regard to the US abuse, why the hell were they letting themselves be photographed?

It's a competition to see who can get the 'best' torture photo. Apparently.

[lopez]

Anyone see the Sun yesterday with iraqi prisoners laughing with their UK captors. Paras no less... Massive propaganda war on here folks
The Scum must either think their readers are completely stupid or that their readers ARE completely stupid, to print those pictures. Smiling prisoners! :rolleyes: I don't care if I was in the penthouse suite of the Las Vegas Hilton with Ginger Lynne and Traci Lords, I wouldn't be smiling willingly if I was being held against my will. Didn't they have similar photos of 'happy' Jews in the 'model camp' of Buchenwald?

Getting back to the photos, the Mirror should have seen straight off the photos were suspect. Too clean, no faces, no shakiness of the image to support the allegation that the boot was flying in fast.