Student Protests/Riots - New one organised as well

[jebus]

First the recent protests that turned to rioting. I wasn't there so I'll just throw some footage up that I've seen online.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPnoAY1wXfI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjCo5a0SoUI

Judging from that it looks to me like it was a protest march that got pushed to far by a) drunken students, b) political groups like SF, the SWP and Eirigi and the usual crowd of Anto, Doyler and Deco with their hoods up and scarves around their faces. I've heard reports of excessive violence being used by the riot police (which begs the question of if riot police have a line to even step over) and that some who were staging a peaceful protest were attacked and beaten as well.

Shame about it is that if the protest had been kept peaceful that the media would have been reporting huge numbers of students from nearly all the colleges in Ireland turning out in force and might have caused some further debate about the hike in fees. Instead it was all about the violence.

Which leads us to the latest protest set for the 7th of December entitled 'Storm The Dail and stop money grabbing politicians' (or at least that's it's Facebook name) where people are actively saying they want this to be a complete riot, no question of it being a proper protest just a day to attack the Dail and start some violence (funnily enough it was originally set for Saturday before they were told that the Brians, Mary and the rest don't show up on Saturdays...*snigger*)

Now I'm all for people's right to protest but there are far better ways of doing so than threatening to attack our parliament and beat up democratically elected officials (no matter how inept they are). If people show up to this I fully expect that the riot police do their job once more, and to be honest I'm with them on this one.

[Billsthoughts]

I dont see how having images of kids with blood streaming down their faces on the 6 o clock news makes anyone look good. Surely at this stage there is some form of standardised police methodology for dealing with large crowds with a small element looking to make trouble. One that doesnt involve milling into people indisciminatly with batons.

[passinginterest]

I can't see the videos you have up Jebus but I'd imagine they're similar to the one I saw last night. It's never going to look good when the riot squad is bailing into a load of people sitting on the street and offering no resistance. I've no doubt that there was plenty of provocation and missiles were being aimed at the Gardai but you would have to think they'd have more sense and better training than to react in the manner they do. There's also a scene where they charge the mounted unit at what seems to be a fairly peaceful dispersing crowd along St Stephens Green.
If anything it offers further evidence that the Gardai are horrible at crowd control, it's fair to say plenty of League of Ireland supporters have witnessed the ineptitude and tendancy to overreact.

The protests themselves are a little misguided too I feel. The fees are not a particular problem in themselves, anyone who qualifies for a grant is not going to be paying them in the first place. There is a wider issue with the means testing of grants and the amount of red tape involved, as well as the lack of any kind of viable student loan system. The same issues have been ongoing for years, I can remember being on a similar march around 02/03 when Dempsey was the education minister.

[Macy]

Police overreaction to peaceful protests is nothing new - how long ago was it that the crusties got laid into for daring to block Dame Street? (And all the cops, the ones that were identified anyway :rolleyes: , were cleared by our "independent" judicary). The cops should be above the reacting to insults imo, it doesn't say much for their training that the default setting in such situations seems to be wade in first, blame the shinners later.

Also, the USI can do one as well. I would've thought most SWP and Eirigi members were students anyway, or at least they have student members, so they have every right to take part in the protest. Hijacked me arse.

[Dodge]

Spot on macy and billsthoughts

its almost as if the baton wielding thugs have taken the heat off the actual subject matter...

[Eminence Grise]

The grant does not cover registration fees; it only covers tuition fees. It would be fairer to re-introduce full or part tuition fees for students which would be grant assisted, rather than increase registration, which will see students from less wealthy backgrounds unable to afford to go to college. I think the student protests are misguided in that respect, but students have to right to protest. As well, they have the right to expect that their protest can be peaceful and neither be hijacked by the lunatic fringe, nor subject to heavy-handed policing. I have no problem with the riot squad beating seven shades out of thugs, but I imagine when a crowd panics it can be hard to distinguish between the thug and the bystander trying to run for cover. Training in riot prevention is better than training in use of a baton.

It seems to me that the nature of protest has changed since the pensioners took on the government over medical cards: their protests were the angriest seen in the country for years (not without justification) and it may have suggested to other groups that aggression works where peaceful protest gets patronisingly slapped down. And then, you have the likes of Eirigi who bring little other than neanderthalism to public discourse. If they have student members, they should have marched under the USI banner and made their anger felt with other students. There's a little too much hi-jacking of protests by groups who latch onto any issue, no matter how little it affects them.

[Macy]

It seems to me that the nature of protest has changed since the pensioners took on the government over medical cards: their protests were the angriest seen in the country for years (not without justification) and it may have suggested to other groups that aggression works where peaceful protest gets patronisingly slapped down. And then, you have the likes of Eirigi who bring little other than neanderthalism to public discourse. If they have student members, they should have marched under the USI banner and made their anger felt with other students. There's a little too much hi-jacking of protests by groups who latch onto any issue, no matter how little it affects them.
The problem the pensioners created was, rightly or wrongly they won.

I don't agree with being forced to march under a USI banner either. Was it a USI protest or a USI organised protest? From the outside, the USI has majorly lurched to the right. It's legitimate to not be a member of the USI, be a member of another group, and join a protest against fee's. Assuming that they weren't also members of the USI anyway, of course.

The media got distracted by the police violence, the USI then played right into their hands by focussing on eirigi and SWP.

I'm still not sure what's thuggish about sitting down either on the road or in a building lobby, that deserves "beating seven shades" out of, regardless of which groups were involved.

[Rasputin]

It seems to me that the nature of protest has changed since the pensioners took on the government over medical cards: their protests were the angriest seen in the country for years (not without justification) and it may have suggested to other groups that aggression works where peaceful protest gets patronisingly slapped down. And then, you have the likes of Eirigi who bring little other than neanderthalism to public discourse. If they have student members, they should have marched under the USI banner and made their anger felt with other students. There's a little too much hi-jacking of protests by groups who latch onto any issue, no matter how little it affects them.
From all the videos I have seen and I have seen a few of the march and protests the only neanderthals were those in unifrom (theres a shocker).
Watching the sheer level of violence against peacefull protestors sitting, yes thats right, sitting on the ground is staggering.
Almost as staggering as your white washing of our beloved gaurdians of the peace.
The gaurds performance was nothing short of disgracefull and one can only guess that if it were pensioners that were sitting in the some government building then robo cop wouldnt have been unleashed cracking open your grandmothers head.

[Eminence Grise]

The problem the pensioners created was, rightly or wrongly they won.

I don't agree with being forced to march under a USI banner either.... It's legitimate to not be a member of the USI, be a member of another group, and join a protest against fee's.....

I'm still not sure what's thuggish about sitting down either on the road or in a building lobby, that deserves "beating seven shades" out of, regardless of which groups were involved.

You're spot on with the pensioners: their tactics worked. And now that encourages others to try similar forms of protest.

Eirigi hopped on the bandwagon: they would march in solidarity with one-legged Eskimo lesbians if there was nothing else to protest about. They're a rent-a-crowd of malcontents, using other people's issues for their own purposes. But I take your point on not having to be in the USI.

There's absolutely nothing thuggish about a sit-in, or similar peaceful protest. And nowhere in my post did I suggest that that was thuggish behaviour. (But, for the record, let's say it includes people who throw missiles at the Gardai and bystanders, assault them, cause criminal damage to property etc, not groups sitting on foothpaths singing We Shall Not Be Moved and Kumbaya.) What I wrote was:
I have no problem with the riot squad beating seven shades out of thugs, but I imagine when a crowd panics it can be hard to distinguish between the thug and the bystander trying to run for cover. (emphasis added)
and suggested better training for the Gardai might be useful in ensuring that nobody's noggin gets cracked unnecessarily.

Which, Rasputin, suggests that I'm well aware that the Guards were wrong in handling the situation. Read my full post, not the part Macy quoted, and you'll see I clearly referred to heavy-handed policing. So don't you dare suggest that I'm an apologist for Guards (sp.) who abuse their power and use excessive force.

[Rasputin]

So don't you dare suggest that I'm an apologist for Guards (sp.) who abuse their power and use excessive force.
I went there, I dared, where do we go from here??

[Eminence Grise]

WE... don't go anywhere. I'm choosy about my company.

[Eminence Grise]

Pretty even-handed account of the protest here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1106/1224282790865.html

[inexile]

Eirigi and the rest of the left wing brigade certainly hi-jacked the whole thing but there was certainly a student element that was more than happy to get involved.
firstly 20 or so protesters forcibly entered the department of finance knocking gardai to the ground in the process, a time passed with Gardai in the lobby with 20 or so protesters and that was relatively peaceful with the usual amount of abuse being thrown at Gardai which is fair enough they are well used to it.

The departement of finance was peppered with eggs and other missiles so much so that one of the protesters with a mega phone asked the other protesters out on the street to stop throwing them!! So far the public order unit are still sitting in their vans and the scene is relatively peaceful. However another group of protesters attempt to breach the Garda line of 7 or 8 at the entrance of the Dept of Finance and succeed by sheer volume of numbers knocking several Gardai to the ground in the process.

This happens again about 5 minutes later and some Gardai are screaming into the radio for assistance as they genuinely feared for their safety. Still the "riot squad" public order unit, whatever you want to call them are in their vans.



Assistance does arrive in the shape of further normal uniformed Gardai at this point and again efforts are made to secure the entrance to Finance and prevent further breaches. A short time later maybe 10 minutes at most do the public order unit arrive and they take their place in front of the uniformed Gardai to secure the door. This is at least 30 minutes into this protest



Protesters in the lobby of the Department are told they have to leave or they will be forcibly removed and arre given the opportunity to do so, an option several do take, and they leave. Uniformed Gardai then drag the remaining protesters out using a degree of force.



Once the lobby has been cleared, Gardai are still under "fire"eggs,bottles, placards, beer cans etc continue to hail down on them and the decision was taken to clear the street and disperse the crowd, people that chose to sat down did so to frustrate the Gardai attempt to move forward and clear the street and reasonable force may be used to move them.



The footage of the mounted unit running forward is when a chair was thrown at them and they had identified the person who did it and they chased after him and he was arrested.

[bennocelt]

Tx for that, spokesman for the garda siochana
Poor garda with their batons and riot shields

[shantykelly]

question - what idiot thinks it's a good idea to use horse mounted gardai for crowd control?

[Dodge]

Tx for that, spokesman for the garda siochana
Poor garda with their batons and riot shields

Did you not read the bit about the eggs literally raining on them. Eggs!!!!

[OneRedArmy]

question - what idiot thinks it's a good idea to use horse mounted gardai for crowd control?In fairness, whoever the idiot that first thought it a good idea did so centuries ago and its been used pretty much ever since in large parts of the globe!

The gardai actually only acquired their mounted unit relatively recently, within the last decade iirc (retired horses from South Yorkshire Police initially).

[Eminence Grise]

question - what idiot thinks it's a good idea to use horse mounted gardai for crowd control?

Maybe they (and many other police forces) got the idea from the 1923 FA Cup final - the so-called White Horse Final?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UORQK_hRlhM

Or maybe, as ORA says, the idea's been around for even longer.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If the latest financial news is anything to go by, this is the just the tip of an iceberg and far far worse is likely to go down.

[Charlie Darwin]

The grant does not cover registration fees; it only covers tuition fees. It would be fairer to re-introduce full or part tuition fees for students which would be grant assisted, rather than increase registration, which will see students from less wealthy backgrounds unable to afford to go to college.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Tuition fees (in non-private colleges) are covered in full by the state and the EU. The student grants covers all or part of the registration for those who qualify.

I was in town at the time and the impression I got from the chatter is that it was mainly middle class Dublin folk attending. I feel for the students from the country and genuinely poor people who do struggle to make ends meet, but those people are in the minority and are the people that need to be accommodated by a more robust grants scheme. But kids from Dublin from are worried they may have to stay with their parents instead of moving out... not so much sympathy.

[Dodge]

I was in town at the time and the impression I got from the chatter is that it was mainly middle class Dublin folk attending

Thats because its STILL mainly middle class folks who currently attend college. Are they not allowed to support the protest or is it only poor people who can protest? Maybe the poor people werem't the ones chattering enough for you to recognise them

[Charlie Darwin]

I was just making an observation. That the number of people whose ability to attend college would be seriously affected by the reintroduction of fees is relatively small and that the protestors' efforts might be directed towards grants reform.

[Rasputin]

Eirigi and the rest of the left wing brigade certainly hi-jacked the whole thing but there was certainly a student element that was more than happy to get involved.
firstly 20 or so protesters forcibly entered the department of finance knocking gardai to the ground in the process, a time passed with Gardai in the lobby with 20 or so protesters and that was relatively peaceful with the usual amount of abuse being thrown at Gardai which is fair enough they are well used to it.

The departement of finance was peppered with eggs and other missiles so much so that one of the protesters with a mega phone asked the other protesters out on the street to stop throwing them!! So far the public order unit are still sitting in their vans and the scene is relatively peaceful. However another group of protesters attempt to breach the Garda line of 7 or 8 at the entrance of the Dept of Finance and succeed by sheer volume of numbers knocking several Gardai to the ground in the process.

This happens again about 5 minutes later and some Gardai are screaming into the radio for assistance as they genuinely feared for their safety. Still the "riot squad" public order unit, whatever you want to call them are in their vans.



Assistance does arrive in the shape of further normal uniformed Gardai at this point and again efforts are made to secure the entrance to Finance and prevent further breaches. A short time later maybe 10 minutes at most do the public order unit arrive and they take their place in front of the uniformed Gardai to secure the door. This is at least 30 minutes into this protest



Protesters in the lobby of the Department are told they have to leave or they will be forcibly removed and arre given the opportunity to do so, an option several do take, and they leave. Uniformed Gardai then drag the remaining protesters out using a degree of force.



Once the lobby has been cleared, Gardai are still under "fire"eggs,bottles, placards, beer cans etc continue to hail down on them and the decision was taken to clear the street and disperse the crowd, people that chose to sat down did so to frustrate the Gardai attempt to move forward and clear the street and reasonable force may be used to move them.



The footage of the mounted unit running forward is when a chair was thrown at them and they had identified the person who did it and they chased after him and he was arrested.
Hahaha **** sake, I actually laughed out loud reading that.
Did you ever consider doing press statements for the Einsatzgruppen? They could use your talents to spruce up their waneing image.

[Eminence Grise]

I'm not sure what you mean here. Tuition fees (in non-private colleges) are covered in full by the state and the EU. The student grants covers all or part of the registration for those who qualify.

Ah... you're right! I didn't make myself clear. I was thinking of my own situation. I'm a postgrad, and all these courses have fees. Since I have a grant, Dublin city Council pay my fees I have to pay a tiny charge and USI levy myself as they aren't covered. Undergrads, I think, get up to a certain level of the registration fee paid, but I'm open to correction on that.

[peadar1987]

I'm not sure what you mean here. Tuition fees (in non-private colleges) are covered in full by the state and the EU. The student grants covers all or part of the registration for those who qualify.

I was in town at the time and the impression I got from the chatter is that it was mainly middle class Dublin folk attending. I feel for the students from the country and genuinely poor people who do struggle to make ends meet, but those people are in the minority and are the people that need to be accommodated by a more robust grants scheme. But kids from Dublin from are worried they may have to stay with their parents instead of moving out... not so much sympathy.


I'm middle-class. My family could probably afford fees, or at least, we could take out a loan without risking everything, but that doesn't mean I can't support the people who aren't lucky enough to be in that situation.