The poppy [Archive]

Gather round

28/10/2010, 8:51 AM

it continues to remain an incredibly divisive symbol...it appears to be a glorification of war than a symbol of peace.

Is it really that divisive in the Republic? Of course thousands continue to serve in the British forces, as they always have done, but I'd be surprised if many others were that interested. At the most trite level, avoid British TV during late October and November if you can.

There does seem to be a trend towards glorifying the military, as in America- although if its main evidence is an obligation on all public figures (politicians, TV presenters, slebs) to wear one as a uniform for a month, so be it.

they don't (or certainly didn't) support those in protected occupations such as the Merchant Navy

The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military.

It supports soldiers from all conflicts - it's always spun here about Irish Soldiers in the 1st and 2nd World Wars, but the British Legion supports the British Armed Forces fullstop. So if you don't support Iraq or Afganistan (or the activities in the North) don't buy one. You can remember the fallen Irish in the World Wars by going to a Rememberence Day Service without buying into the rest

I don't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but that won't stop me supporting the appeal. Squaddies don't start wars, but they're still getting killed and injured.

bennocelt

28/10/2010, 9:10 AM

I don't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but that won't stop me supporting the appeal. Squaddies don't start wars, but they're still getting killed and injured.

Just thinking about that British soldier who took aim at the 8 year old Iraqi kid and blow her head of. All in Wikileaks. yeah heroes my as s
Thing that is a joke is that everybody on TV has one on, I mean no matter what you think surely not everybody has to be a sheep. I like the Channel four News guy who never wears one solely for this reason - cant remember his name!!!

edit - jon snow

Eminence Grise

28/10/2010, 9:32 AM

IIRC, Jon Snow refuses to wear badges, emblems etc of any kind. He believes that wearing them would be a conflict with maintaining impartiality as a journalist. A sensible enough reason, and one that, perhaps more journalists across the water should consider. Personally, I'm ambivalent on the poppy, as I suspect are most people in Ireland: I've never worn one, but if somebody decides that they want to wear one that's their choice.

Gather round

28/10/2010, 9:48 AM

Just thinking about that British soldier who took aim at the 8 year old Iraqi kid and blow her head of. All in Wikileaks. yeah heroes my as s

Indeed. But hardly contradicting my point, so not sure why you highlight it? Put simply, ex-Military charity deserves support however unheroically- or criminally- some individuals behave.

Thing that is a joke is that everybody on TV has one on, I mean no matter what you think surely not everybody has to be a sheep

As above, it's a long-standing convention that's increasingly becoming a fetish.

Personally, I'm ambivalent on the poppy, as I suspect are most people in Ireland: I've never worn one, but if somebody decides that they want to wear one that's their choice

Fair enough. I think that apart from the obvious exception in NI- where the poppy season row is simply a regular aspect of the wider conflict- the only reason why most people in the RoI are as much as ambilvalent, is simply that they're more likely to follow British media than those in say, France, Germany or Benelux.

Mr A

28/10/2010, 9:48 AM

Wouldn't wear one, have no problem with others doing so.

Macy

28/10/2010, 10:20 AM

The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military
Grand, they'll definitely still won't be getting any money from me so. Like I said, Merchant Navy seamen weren't allowed leave to join the Navy even if they wanted too, and it's the poppy appeals own shame that they continue to make the wars only about military personnel.

ArdeeBhoy

29/10/2010, 10:31 PM

Is it really that divisive in the Republic? Of course thousands continue to serve in the British forces, as they always have done, but I'd be surprised if many others were that interested.

There does seem to be a trend towards glorifying the military, as in America- although if its main evidence is an obligation on all public figures (politicians, TV presenters, slebs) to wear one as a uniform for a month, so be it.
It's divisive if people don't even use the correct name of the state.
We're talking politically at least in this instance....

As for the silly US 'glorification' of 'their' wars by some of their populace, more fool them and their deluded paranoia and self-righteousness. If the Brits want to go down this path, makes them equally stupid.

Not sure how sorry we should feel for squaddies, but even assuming all those lost are 'cannon-fodder', the fact is that most conflicts that they've been involved in since 1945 have been largely pointless.

And if you invade any country be it 50 or 15000 miles away, they can hardly be surprised to meet armed resistance (and justifiably so) and take consequent casualties....

Which is why most decent people would question the statement,

The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military.

I don't support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, but that won't stop me supporting the appeal. Squaddies don't start wars, but they're still getting killed and injured.

Take the later point, but contradictory to support the soldiers there, given they've caused a lot more death and destruction than they've had inflicted upon them. Especially when they illegally invade other peoples territory.
And again contradicted here also...
(You really want to condone war criminals?? Thanks, but no thanks.)

Put simply, ex-Military charity deserves support however unheroically- or criminally- some individuals behave.

I think that apart from the obvious exception in NI- where the poppy season row is simply a regular aspect of the wider conflict
And the latter being the real reason why people have become tired of the ever-reaching hand.

Have no problems with the Legion helping those injured up to the end of WW2 fighting v. Fascism or in peace-keeping duties. But history and circumstances mean that this is probably only 10% of those need in of their help.

backstothewall

29/10/2010, 11:55 PM

I'll be wearing on on November 11th this year, for the first time. As a deep green northern nationalist, that's a big step for me, so if anyone is interested I'm going to give my reasons.

My great grandfather fought for the wrong army in the wrong war in 1916. For his trouble he was shot by the Germans and was awarded a couple of medals by the British. In the early 70's members of the British Army raided his house without reason, and stole his medals.

The reason I'm doing it is a collective need to move on. And so I did a deal with a friend of mine who was a member of the Royal Irish Regiment. If he wore a lily on Easter Monday, I'd wear a poppy in November. He kept his side of the bargain, and I'm a man of my word.

I know nothing is perfect about this arrangement. The British legion (who I didn't give a penny to as it happens) paid Lee Cleggs legal bill. Similarly the lily isn't once again the national symbol it should be, and the guys who sold him the lily were probably SF, rather than the National Graves Association who should really be selling the things nationwide.

But its a start to the appropriate remembrance of those who died for this country, no matter what country it is.

As an aside, I also think much more should be made of National Famine Memorial Day.

ArdeeBhoy

30/10/2010, 3:25 AM

Fine and good sentiments Btw. Interesting deal you made there.

And ironic the Army took their medals back, but terrible it should happen that way.

In principle, up to 1945, absolutely no problem with those soldiers (of all hues in the main) being commemorated.
After that, peace-keepers/U.N. only....

Gather round

31/10/2010, 1:40 PM

Not sure how sorry we should feel for squaddies

I think you've made your feeling pretty clear, actually. You don't have any sympathy for them. Why not say so?

Which is why most decent people would question the statement "The Poppy Appeal continues to support only the Military"

Read the thread: it means as distinct from supporting other veterans, such as the Merchant Navy.

Most people in Britain (however 'decent' you think they are) support the Poppy Appeal, it raised about £35 million last year. In many cases, including my own, they're perfectly able to distinguish between unjustifiable wars and the welfare of those killed and injured there, or their dependents.

As above, I've assumed that most people in the Republic (like most people in Belgium or Norway, say) aren't that bothered about how Britain chooses to provide for ex-service welfare.

contradictory to support the soldiers there, given they've caused a lot more death and destruction than they've had inflicted upon them

It's not at all contradictory. Welfare and warfare are simply two separate issues.

You really want to condone war criminals??

I've explicitly criticised them, assuming you mean Blair, Brown, Cameron and co. You can't seriously claim that supporting ex-service welfare contradicts that.

I'll be wearing on on November 11th this year, for the first time. As a deep green northern nationalist, that's a big step for me, so if anyone is interested I'm going to give my reasons

Interesting story. As I live well away from Belfast and only visit occasionally it's only a hunch, but I suspect your willingness to move on is increasingly shared. A reflection of much reduced violence, basically.

ArdeeBhoy

31/10/2010, 1:57 PM

Supporting the Poppy appeal * at this stage, is largely condoning illegal wars.

It's unfortunate that soldiers get injured, but unless they're defending their countries borders, why would anyone have any great sympathies?
No-one seems to give two fecks about all the civilian populations killed in Afghanistan & Iraq after all, whose nos. are far far greater.
Similarly, even in the North that was the case....

Even in the 'ever-beloved ' Britain, I doubt even 50% of the population would bother to contribute * either. And unsurprisingly with Muslims and other ethnic minorities, the figure would be closer to 90%.

Certainly with the latter, they care as little about the squaddies as little as they perceive them, their superiors (officers & politicians) or British/'Allied'/US forces care about them or their communities.

Gather round

31/10/2010, 2:52 PM

Supporting the Poppy appeal * at this stage, is largely condoning illegal wars

It's unfortunate that soldiers get injured, but unless they're defending their countries borders, why would anyone have any great sympathies?

The people I'm supporting through this charity didn't start any wars. They chose (or in many cases had little choice of) a job in which the likelihood of death or injury was clearly higher than for most civilians in their country. Or they may have been the dependent of a soldier and not been directly involved in any warfare. So quite obviously it's possible to both support the charity and oppose the wars, as I do.

No-one seems to give two fecks about all the civilian populations killed in Afghanistan & Iraq after all, whose nos. are far far greater

You what? There has been a large-scale and sustained opposition to the Iraq and Afghan wars in Britain, largely because of the inevitable local civilian casualties resulting from them.

Even in the 'ever-beloved ' Britain, I doubt even 50% of the population would bother to contribute * either. And unsurprisingly with Muslims and other ethnic minorities, the figure would be closer to 90%

What are you talking about? No-one is suggesting Britain goes uncriticised. Didn't you read/ understand my point immediately above?

The Poppy Appeal charity is the 34th most popular in this country. In two or three weeks it raises an average 60 pence per head from every person in Britain, while it's endorsed by almost every public figure and organisation (and always has been, long before the recent accusations of compulsion). So I'm fairly sure your doubt is misplaced. Got any evidence for it?

As you suggest Muslims (who make up about 3- 4% of the population here) are less likely to support military charities.

Certainly with the latter, they care as little about the squaddies as little as they preceive them, their superiors (officers & politicians) or British/'Allied'/US forces care about them or their communities

Are you a spokesman for British Islam and ethnic minorities? It's perceive, btw.

Spudulika

31/10/2010, 7:48 PM

I agree with Gather Round, squaddies, WREN's etc didn't start wars, however they don't have to fight them. If they had a doubt about their duty they could leave, or refuse to go - it's called being a conscientious objector. By now every single serving member of the British, US and their lackeys armed forces know that Afghanistan was about a pipeline, Iraq about oil and putting manners on Saudi, so with a heart and brain they should refuse. I have sympathy for them if they're killed or wounded, for their families too (same as a drug dealer who gets gunned down - death is death no matter what), though I could never respect them enough to support them in any form.

This sounds odd, though watch it - tonight I'm stuck with my family who are watching X Factor (I've never seen this show before, apart from 10 minutes with Jedward in May or something), for Louis and Mary - who are poppy free - they won't show any full length shots even reasonably close, unlike the rest of the people I can see there. I wonder why?

paudie

31/10/2010, 9:03 PM

I've always considered myself to be tolerant and open-minded, but I can't help feeling uncomfortable when the poppy makes its annual appearance on our TV screens. That's not to say that everyone who fought and died in various wars shouldn't be remembered, just that it continues to remain an incredibly divisive symbol. It would perhaps have greater credibility if people from defeated countries also wore the flower, but as it stands, it appears to be a glorification of war than a symbol of peace.

It doesn't make me uncomfortable to see the poppy. I do think that people on TV seem to wear them for a long time - over 2 weeks- so the whole thing is a bit in your face.
My grand uncle was killed in WW1 and i plan to visit his grave in France some day but I don't feel the need to wear a poppy in memory of him.
TBH the poppy brings to my mind WW1, which IMO, was little more than mass butchery of the European working class. I won't start on Iraq and Afghanistan.

I know soldiers don't start wars but to describe men who died in these wars as the "glorious dead" sticks in my craw a bit.

Just my tuppence worth.

ArdeeBhoy

31/10/2010, 10:10 PM

To answer your points....

The people I'm supporting through this charity didn't start any wars. They chose (or in many cases had little choice of) a job in which the likelihood of death or injury was clearly higher than for most civilians in their country.

Hmm, except since National Service ended in Britain no-one's been forced to join up. Agree the families are worthy of support, but not the perpetrators.
As the Spud man says, if they'd had had a brain of their own they would make more effort at not being cannon fodder in all those pointless conflicts since 1945.

You what? There has been a large-scale and sustained opposition to the Iraq and Afghan wars in Britain, largely because of the inevitable local civilian casualties resulting from them.

Which have been largely pointless, given the apathy of the wider population. And paranoia of certain politicians. Sound familar??

Sadly body-bags are far more likely to end the conflict than the experience of the hapless locals, who we should note for whom, there is no national campaign of financial collection in Britain or even great practical assistance given the destruction imposed by them and their ilk.

No-one is suggesting Britain goes uncriticised. Didn't you read/ understand my point immediately above?
You mentioned a few politicians but didn't suggest the criticism you claim! Though if it helps I will, but more in the context of wider apathy as per above.

The Poppy Appeal charity is the 34th most popular in this country. In two or three weeks it raises an average 60 pence per head from every person in Britain. Got any evidence

Only anecdotally in that I see very few members of the public these days or friends and acquaintances ever wearing a Poppy. Maybe because they have a conscience.

Are you a spokesman for British Islam and ethnic minorities? It's perceive, btw.

Not sure about the 'Brit' bit but certainly worked with and known dozens of Muslims, none of whom I've ever seen with a poppy or making a donation. And given world events and the misguided role of British forces, never likely to.
Similarly with around 90% of 'ethnic minorities', whatever they are!

But if you're confused, why not ask them?? Think I can predict their response....

As for typos, spelling and the like, it would pay to give your attention closer to home !
;)

Gather round

01/11/2010, 2:08 PM

I have sympathy for them if they're killed or wounded, for their families too (same as a drug dealer who gets gunned down - death is death no matter what), though I could never respect them enough to support them in any form

By offering that basic sympathy, surely you are supporting them in broadly the same way I am?

watching X Factor (I've never seen this show before, apart from 10 minutes with Jedward in May or something), for Louis and Mary - who are poppy free - they won't show any full length shots even reasonably close, unlike the rest of the people I can see there. I wonder why?

As C82 and I said in our opening posts, the compulsion to wear a poppy is uncomfortable at least. Unfortunately in many cases the British mainstream media, far from ignoring non-wearers, will single them out for attention/ criticism.

PS I'm a new viewer too, Wagner lives nearby. His friends and neighbors have bunting up outside the flat ;)

Macy

01/11/2010, 2:25 PM

I'm surprised Walsh isn't wearing one - afterall he's had his boys Westlife launch the thing in previous years!

passinginterest

01/11/2010, 2:47 PM

I'm surprised Walsh isn't wearing one - afterall he's had his boys Westlife launch the thing in previous years!

They wore them on Saturday anyway. I didn't notice either way on the Sunday show.

It's not something I'd chose to wear myself but it's a personal choice. I don't wear a Lily either for that matter.

Gather round

01/11/2010, 2:55 PM

Hmm, except since National Service ended in Britain no-one's been forced to join up

For thousands of British school-leavers, there are few other options. Of course I recognise that many are attracted to a military career.

Agree the families are worthy of support, but not the perpetrators

Right, so we're meeting halfway. The Poppy Appeal has proved the most effective way to provide that support.

As the Spud man says, if they'd had had a brain of their own they would make more effort at not being cannon fodder in all those pointless conflicts since 1945

Not everyone necessary has your fearsome intellect. Although everyone joining the British forces realises it's very likely they'll be shot at.

Which have been largely pointless, given the apathy of the wider population. And paranoia of certain politicians. Sound familar??

Do you have to work (your own?) paranoia into every conceivable thread? In any case, wider apathy can be overcome. If it wasn't so, we'd all still be swinging from the trees. Can we expect you to drop your enthusiastic support for a united Ireland, given that most people in Britain and Ireland seem reasonably happy with (or apathetic about, if you like) the present situation?

Sadly body-bags are far more likely to end the conflict than the experience of the hapless locals, who we should note for whom, there is no national campaign of financial collection in Britain or even great practical assistance given the destruction imposed by them and their ilk

We're broadly agreed. The best way to prevent Afghans being killed, or at least reduce the number, is to persuade foreign armies to come home.

You mentioned a few politicians but didn't suggest the criticism you claim! Though if it helps I will, but more in the context of wider apathy as per above

You implied pretty strongly that British people generally, and me personally, don't oppose British government policy- even though I'd already explained how we do.

Only anecdotally in that I see very few members of the public these days or friends and acquaintances ever wearing a Poppy. Maybe because they have a conscience

a) anecdotage is of limited value, partic. when contradicted by wider evidence. The original point of the thread highlit that basically every public figure in Britain wears one. While the suggestion of compulsion is uncomfortable as I said, the convention has been there for decades

b) what's it like up there on the moral high ground? Will you be sending postcards?

Not sure about the 'Brit' bit but certainly worked with and known dozens of Muslims, none of whom I've ever seen with a poppy or making a donation. And given world events and the misguided role of British forces, never likely to

More anecdotage. See above.

Similarly with around 90% of 'ethnic minorities', whatever they are!

In Britain, they're the 5- 6% of the population who are non-white. But I think even you knew that.

But if you're confused, why not ask them?? Think I can predict their response...

I'm not at all confused. I've quoted evidence to answer your anecdotal prejudice.

ArdeeBhoy

01/11/2010, 3:32 PM

The usual hot air, contradictions & bluster, not to mention the most far-fetched interpretation, as ever largely detached from reality!

The Fly

01/11/2010, 4:48 PM

Is that a special combination which provokes you into posting the same response twice?

ArdeeBhoy

02/11/2010, 1:21 PM

For thousands of British school-leavers, there are few other options.
Really? Most of them continue their education or go on the dole.

Right, so we're meeting halfway.
Except that's not what I said.

everyone joining the British forces realises it's very likely they'll be shot at.
So why do it, or expect massive sympathy why you get taken out invading someone else's country, almost exclusively, unnecessarily??

Do you have to work (your own?) paranoia into every conceivable thread? In any case, wider apathy can be overcome. If it wasn't so, we'd all still be swinging from the trees. Can we expect you to drop your enthusiastic support for a united Ireland, given that most people in Britain and Ireland seem reasonably happy with (or apathetic about, if you like) the present situation?
Huh?
I was talking about the paranoia of US & Brit.politicians which have led them into the latest completely pointless conflicts. The only other bout of the former is your own link to the North, but if that's your bag....

The best way to prevent Afghans being killed, or at least reduce the number, is to persuade foreign armies to come home.
No, they shouldn't be there. Or ever have gone.
And if any country or army invades another then they have to accept the consequences and is very difficult to have any great sympathy for them. Especially when the mainly unarmed civilian population there are killed in far greater numbers and most of the world frankly doesn't care.

Notice you didn't acknowledge that neither the British State (or population) or Poppy Appeal don't bother to make even the slightest reparations to those whose lives they've totally wrecked.

You implied pretty strongly that British people generally, and me personally, don't oppose British government policy- even though I'd already explained how we do.
Do they really? Clearly it's not been an issue in my life time as a majority of their voters have continued to back the 3 main pro-war parties there. As I said, most people are sadly indifferent, unless of course when home-grown terrorists come unsurprisingly onto the agenda periodically.

a) anecdotage is of limited value, partic. when contradicted by wider evidence. The original point of the thread highlit that basically every public figure in Britain wears one. While the suggestion of compulsion is uncomfortable as I said, the convention has been there for decades

b) what's it like up there on the moral high ground? Will you be sending postcards?
So you watch a lot of sanctimonious people in the media. Isn't that also just anecdotal? Is that your 'evidence'?? ;)
Though I admit, it is apt, you refer to it being 'wider' !

My experience is limited like everyone else's, but of the few hundred people I saw yesterday, only 3 were wearing Poppies.
They could of course all be paying hundreds by Direct Debit, but I doubt it.

In Britain, they're the 5- 6% of the population who are non-white.
So why refer to them to in such a patronising way? And I repeat 90% of those who I've known wouldn't ever wear a poppy.
You could of course ask them as I suggest. As some of them are even mutual acquaintances.....

I'm not at all confused.
Hmm.

peadar1987

02/11/2010, 4:34 PM

Gather round

03/11/2010, 8:59 AM

AB, variously

* I'm not suggesting all or most joining the Brit military are prompted by poverty/ unemployment/ lack of other jobs, any more than they're invariably motivated by invading other countries and killing the locals. But in practice, many are. Less than 50% of 18 year olds currently go on to further education, btw

* I suggested we 'met halfway', simply because you agreed with me that it was reasonable for a charity appeal to benefit the dependents of service veterans

* however misguided individuals' motivations, it's entirely reasonable for soldiers to expect the welfare of they and their dependents will be provided in future. As I said, they can expect to be shot at- it's a bit more than an occupational hazard

* I was merely pointing out the obvious contradiction between your exaggerated cynicism in response to anti-war opposition in Britain, and your own (presumably equally pointless) opposition to the partition of Ireland

* the best way to help Afghans NOW is to withdraw foreign armies. Of course it would be better if they hadn't invaded in the first place. So what do you suggest- just letting them get on with it while thousands more die?

* I think we all realise that you and others have little or no sympathy for the foot-soldiers. OK, but at least accept you are probably in a minority in this country. 26 million poppies were sold in Britain in 2008

* you're right, I hadn't mentioned above any reparation from Britain to those affected by our wars in foreign countries. It's clearly inadequate, but not quite zero as you claim. Both private charity, overseas aid through government and building of infrastructure (hospitals, schools etc.)

* yes, there's some contradiction between 90% of voters here voting for parties that supported the war, while clearly a lot more than 10% of the population have opposed it. Politics generally isn't single issue outside minorities like the SF/ SDLP constituency in NI

* unlike you, I've quoted evidence that isn't just anecdotal (scale of the poppy appeal, number of Muslims/ ethnic minorities in Britain etc.). See it above
I didn't patronise anyone. You asked who I meant by 'ethnic minorities' in Britain, I answered you.

If they were to pull out of either country now, things would descend into full scale civil war, with the death toll probably in the millions. No matter how you felt about the original invasion, that is just wrong

I don't claim any detailed knowledge of Afghanistan nor military strategy, but isn't that descent into civil war likely whenever we go, if it ever happens?

As far as I can see, the British Army seems to be facing the Taleban across Afghanistan (a country the size of France) roughly as they did the IRA in South Armagh (drivable across in half an hour). The likelihood of ever controlling such a large area (literally step-by-step given the profusion of booby traps) must be minimal.

bennocelt

03/11/2010, 9:03 AM

However, to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan now would be just plain irresponsible. The countries are both in a horrible mess as a result of the invasions, and it is definitely the responsibility of the invading nations to sort it out to the best of their ability. If they were to pull out of either country now, things would descend into full scale civil war, with the death toll probably in the millions. No matter how you felt about the original invasion, that is just wrong.

Might be of interest
http://www.chris-floyd.com/articles/3-articles/1604-a-furnace-seald-the-wondrous-death-squads-of-the-american-elite.html

ArdeeBhoy

03/11/2010, 11:32 AM

Less than 50% of 18 year olds currently go on to further education.
Maybe more should. The British army is hardly any sort of positive career move currently even if you can join-up at 16.

you agreed with me that it was reasonable for a charity appeal to benefit the dependents of service veterans

* however misguided individuals' motivations, it's entirely reasonable for soldiers to expect the welfare of they and their dependents will be provided in future.
Only as a very low priority, behind aid to the countries they inevitably disrupt & destroy, which is why I guess the Poppy Appeal has dropped off in obvious popularity.

I was merely pointing out the obvious contradiction between your exaggerated cynicism in response to anti-war opposition in Britain, and your own opposition to the partition of Ireland
Except I never said that. The only paranoia here, is the usual misguided conclusions.....

the best way to help Afghans NOW is to withdraw foreign armies. Of course it would be better if they hadn't invaded in the first place. So what do you suggest- just letting them get on with it while thousands more die?

* I think we all realise that you and others have little or no sympathy for the foot-soldiers. OK, but at least accept you are probably in a minority in this country. 26 million poppies were sold in Britain in 2008
I hadn't mentioned above any reparation from Britain to those affected by our wars in foreign countries. It's clearly inadequate
Well thousands more will die, mainly on the basis of foreign intervention. The US and Brits won't stop the Taliban as even you admit, merely add to it.
Not sure what you mean about a 'minority', but even allowing for the figure you claim, the ever-beloved Britain's population is 60million-plus, of which 26 million is not even half.
There would be greater sympathy with dependents (many of whom have spoken out against a war I thought you aren't in favour of ??) if the British state gave reparations now, though even those fools couldn't be that hypocritical??

there's some contradiction between 90% of voters here voting for parties that supported the war, while clearly a lot more than 10% of the population have opposed it.
So clearly it's not that important to most people in Britain. Except when there are attacks in London or those planned on planes.....

I've quoted evidence that isn't just anecdotal (scale of the poppy appeal, number of Muslims/ ethnic minorities in Britain etc.).
I didn't patronise anyone. You asked who I meant by 'ethnic minorities' in Britain, I answered you.
And? They're hardly conclusive and the monetary figure is irrelevant to the sectors of the population mentioned, except that they're hardly likely to contribute!

And not just most ethnic minorities, but plenty of home-grown Brits have lost interest in the Poppy Appeal as they see it as condoning pointless foreign wars. Why not ask your peers? ;)
Whilst the last sentence, as ever, makes no sense!

Gather round

03/11/2010, 12:22 PM

why I guess the Poppy Appeal has dropped off in obvious popularity

Except that it isn't that obviously less popular. £35 million raised in a three week campaign in 2009, 26 million poppies sold in 2008. Let's not nitpick: that's 51% of the population over age 14, spending an average 70 pence per head. Your evidence of its obviously reduced popularity is almost entirely anecdotal. Even the reasonable assumption that the 3% Muslim minority are less likely to support the Poppy Appeal at present isn't backed with any detail other than guesswork.

Except I never said that. The only paranoia here, is the usual misguided conclusions....

You said that anti-War protests in Britain "have been largely pointless, given the apathy of the wider population". The clear implication being that you think any issue not obviously supported by a majority of the population and thus likely to be resolved in their favor, is pointless and not worth pursuing. Like your own 'I'll do anything for a united Ireland except actually live in it' campaign on here, for example.

There would be greater sympathy with dependents (many of whom have spoken out against a war I thought you aren't in favour of ??) if the British state gave reparations now

If Britain compensates Afghans (or even better, stops fighting in their country), I can see that you and others are likely to be better disposed to the Poppy Appeal and similar. That's fine, it's an individual choice. Not sure why you stress my opposition to the war, which I've made clear above?

ArdeeBhoy

03/11/2010, 12:42 PM

All fine and dandy, but the nos.supporting the Poppy Appeal are going down regardless of your tenuous 'evidence', which includes a failure to record any great levels of Muslim inclusiveness mainly because there isn't, er, any. ;)

It's 'favour', as you might say whilst the protests were pointless, unfortunately. And don't understand your mention of a 'united Ireland', which was never referred to here. Or that typically then, the wrong conclusion was reached!

To most people against the recent wars, in my experience, now makes them less inclined towards the Poppy Appeal. Which is hardly a surprise!
The last sentence mentioned refers to the inevitable hypocrisy....

Rasputin

05/11/2010, 12:19 PM

I would never wear one and my skin crawls when I see them.
Glorifying the orchestrated butcher of the European working class and also re-inforcing the British Jingoism it needs to sustain the old mantra of "support our boys" etc.
It is effectively a symbol or jingoistic nationalism that masquerades behind a support appeal for dead and injured soldiers.
Well apologys but my sympathy is with the people of Iraq and Afghanistan and not some young British lads who are paid to subjugate and brutalise foreign peoples.
Its not squaddies that need this money its the people of Iraq and Afghanistan but tbh even stating that is irrelevant as it would mean you accept the line trumpeted that its merely a "charity" when it is so much more.
My sisters friend works in England and she is Irish, they were told to wear Poppys in the shop she works, and she refused and it was not taken well.
Its got damn all to do with Charity its all about reinforcing the revisionist tale by British Historians and political comentators that the first world war was a glorious war when in reality it was one tyrannical Empire fighting another Empire through its working class.
Its not something we should glorify, its something we should abhor.
So in summary I despise the Poppy and all that it has come to symbolise.
Look no further than that vomit enducing song by the X-Factor contestants, "Hero's", disgusting.

bennocelt

05/11/2010, 3:23 PM

I was asked to buy a poppy yesterday as well. Told your one I was Irish and what the hell wud be wearing a poppy for. The look off her was priceless and well worth it!
Living in an area with a huge east asian community I see virtually no poppies worn around town

Gather round

05/11/2010, 5:15 PM

Glorifying the orchestrated butcher of the European working class

I'd call it honoring those who gave their lives.

also re-inforcing the British Jingoism it needs to sustain the old mantra of "support our boys" etc.

I don't think it actually needs that- in practice the Appeal has been almost self-sustaining, as one war and its veterans succeeds the next. It's a popular charity first, even if the element of fetishising the military has grown.

It is effectively a symbol or jingoistic nationalism that masquerades behind a support appeal for dead and injured soldiers

See above.

Well apologys but my sympathy is with the people of Iraq and Afghanistan and not some young British lads who are paid to subjugate and brutalise foreign peoples...Its not squaddies that need this money its the people of Iraq and Afghanistan

Both are deserving of sympathy/ charity, it's not a zero sum game. In any case, that it's a charity obviously gives you a choice whether to contribute. If you're unsympathetic or even hostile, fair enough. Ignore the Appeal.

My sisters friend works in England and she is Irish, they were told to wear Poppys in the shop she works, and she refused and it was not taken well

Sorry to hear that. What happened next?

Its got damn all to do with Charity its all about reinforcing the revisionist tale by British Historians and political comentators that the first world war was a glorious war when in reality it was one tyrannical Empire fighting another Empire through its working class

This is a bit silly- obviously it is a charity, and a popular one as detailed above. It's clearly not mainly about WW1 any more, given that all the veterans have died. And twhatever you think of the British or German Empires' motives in 1914, there will be crippled veterans, widows and orphans in 2014.

Look no further than that vomit enducing song by the X-Factor contestants, "Hero's", disgusting

I'd avoid XF if I were you, probably help your blood pressure.

I was asked to buy a poppy yesterday as well. Told your one I was Irish and what the hell wud be wearing a poppy for. The look off her was priceless and well worth it!

Again it's your choice, but I'm sure you'd agree it was reasonable for the seller to ask. Unless you were carrying a TROOPS OUT placard or something ;)

Living in an area with a huge east asian community I see virtually no poppies worn around town

As above I'll accept that the Asian/ Muslim community are less likely than other groups to wear one; but in my area plenty of Asians do.

ArdeeBhoy

05/11/2010, 10:03 PM

It's clearly not mainly about WW1 any more, given that all the veterans have died. And whatever you think of the British or German Empires' motives in 1914, there will be crippled veterans, widows and orphans in 2014.

Again it's your choice, but I'm sure you'd agree it was reasonable for the seller to ask. Unless you were carrying a TROOPS OUT placard or something ;)

As above I'll accept that the Asian/ Muslim community are less likely than other groups to wear one; but in my area plenty of Asians do.

Except it's not popular 'as detailed above', certainly in the capital of Britain where >5% or probably fewer are seen wearing as a poppy, though as said up thread the rest of the populace are probably secretly donating, not.
;)

As for the charities, if there was one for WW veterans up to 1945 or their dependents that would be fair enough.
But after that date they should GTF and have a cheek asking anybody for anything, it's the responsibility of successive Brit.governments in this case to sort out their own mess rather than trying to grovel to the public.

Besides their conflicts after 1945 deserve neither respect or attention. Any funds should be diverted to the hapless civilian recipients of those unnecessary conflicts wherever they were around the world.

It's 'honouring', btw ;)

ArdeeBhoy

05/11/2010, 10:10 PM

The whole pro-war thing is a bit of a catch-22. I actually supported the invasion of Afghanistan, as I believe the terrorist training camps for Islamic extremists located there were a credible threat to the security of Western Nations (as did the UN), but I was strongly against the invasion of Iraq, which I believe was launched for selfish, economic reasons, on the back of fabricated "evidence". And I think those responsible are indeed guilty of war crimes.

However, to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan now would be just plain irresponsible. The countries are both in a horrible mess as a result of the invasions, and it is definitely the responsibility of the invading nations to sort it out to the best of their ability. If they were to pull out of either country now, things would descend into full scale civil war, with the death toll probably in the millions. No matter how you felt about the original invasion, that is just wrong.

Yeah right, the Taliban want to take over the Pentagon and the Dail. They're control freaks but their ambitions don't quite extend that far.
Your second paragraph is full of fine sentiments but wholly unrealistic. Besides linking the military-industrial complex to this as part of the extended pro-Israel agenda, all you are doing is creating a scenario where Vietnam looks like a kid's picnic.
By butchering civilians there, you're far more likely to breed revenge suicide attacks as seen around Europe in the past & in the future.
Great, that's what's really needed. Thanks.

The Fly

06/11/2010, 11:44 AM

A pertinent read...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/poppy-appeal-subverted-veterans-complain

Poppy appeal's original aims being subverted, veterans complain.

Critics say event is drum-roll for current conflicts but Royal British Legion says new approach has raised awareness.

A group of veterans from conflicts including the Falklands and Northern Ireland have complained of the increasing glitz and glamour of the annual poppy appeal and of it being hijacked to marshall public support behind current campaigns.

In a letter in tomorrow's Guardian, the veterans argue that the original aim of the appeal as a sombre commemoration of the war dead and the horrors of conflict was in danger of being lost amid the marketing spin and tub-thumping political aims.

"A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum-roll of support for current wars. This year's campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored," they write.

The Royal British Legion organises the annual appeal, as well as events such as the festival of remembrance at the Royal Albert Hall and the service at the Cenotaph in Whitehall – this year on Sunday 14 November – and hopes to raise £36m, £2m more than last year. The sum is about half what it spends annually in supporting former servicemen and women.

This year's appeal was launched by the girl band the Saturdays at Colchester barracks, the Armed Services extreme flight team have held a "jump for heroes" with white parachutes decorated with red poppies and red smoke flares over Essex, and organisers persuaded the X Factor judges to start wearing poppies on the programme weeks ago.

As well as the buttonhole paper poppy, jute poppy bags, poppy jewellery (from £4.99), poppy T-shirts, scarves, caps and ties, cufflinks and tie-slides, not to mention more permanent lapel badges, are also on sale.

For some, it's all too much. "I am not sure I agree with all that," said the elderly RAF veteran with his cardboard tray of paper poppies outside a Sainsbury's in Kent. "It's a wonderful cause, but it's all getting a bit – what's the word? – excessive: a bit wallowing. I wouldn't like to say so openly though."

With all last survivors of the first world war now dead – Harry Patch, the last soldier to have served on the Western Front, died aged 111 last year – and veterans of the second world war in their 80s, the legion is using new ways to turn the public's attention to the casualties of newer conflicts.

Posters this year with the slogan "It only takes a second to put on a poppy" show a serviceman strapping on an artificial leg and a young widow with her baby daughter at the grave of her partner. It is the style and also the apparent politics of supporting our boys in unpopular wars such as Afghanistan and Iraq that has caused complaints.

The veterans' letter organiser is Ben Griffin, a London ambulance driver who served nine years in the Parachute Regiment, including in Afghanistan and Iraq, before refusing to return for a further term of service because of his concerns about US military tactics.

He said: "We are concerned that people are trying to take ownership of the poppy for political ends. It is almost as if they are trying to garner support for our boys and any criticism of the wars is a betrayal.

"That is not what the poppy was all about to start with: it was all about remembrance and peace: never again. The government should be supporting these casualties: they are their liability, not the British Legion's."

Ken Lukowiak, who served in the Falkland Islands and Northern Ireland between 1979 and 1984, and is now an author, is another signatory. He said: "I don't have a problem with the British Legion, which does wonderful work, but it is the sanitisation which concerns me.

"Part of me wants to be sensitive to the families who have lost loved ones and part of me wants to throw a bucket of blood into the living rooms of the nation every night to show people the true meaning of war.

"This year's poppy appeal is too showbizzy, too much glamour and glitz. It's like they are turning on the Christmas lights in Regent Street."
Robert Lee, the British Legion's spokesman, is unrepentant. "I am glad that they have noticed the change in campaigning. It's a fair cop. There have been criticisms, mainly from older veterans.

"We are the national custodians of remembrance but we are living in contemporary society. Not everything we do with the poppy appeal has to be static and serious, or conducted with a frown. It was very generous of the X Factor wearing poppies – that's caused quite a stir of Twitter, with people asking what they are.

"There is nothing in our appeal or campaigning which supports, or does not support, war: we are totally neutral. We are not a warmongering organisation. We don't have a position on war in Iraq or anywhere else. These boys don't send themselves to Iraq – that's a decision for the politicians.

"We help 160,000 cases a year, servicemen and women and their families. We represent widows at inquests, we fight for compensation for victims who have lost limbs. We are in there, up to our elbows dealing with the cost of conflict."

The poppy became a symbol of remembrance after the Canadian surgeon John McCrae hurriedly penned his verse In Flanders Fields in the back of a field ambulance at Ypres in May 1915, but it was only after the war that the flower came to symbolise remembrance of the war dead.

McCrae died of pneumonia and meningitis in January 1918 after three years spent patching up the wounded from the trenches. His poem ends: "If ye break faith with us who die, We shall not sleep, though poppies grow in Flanders fields."

peadar1987

08/11/2010, 7:01 AM

Yeah right, the Taliban want to take over the Pentagon and the Dail. They're control freaks but their ambitions don't quite extend that far.
Your second paragraph is full of fine sentiments but wholly unrealistic. Besides linking the military-industrial complex to this as part of the extended pro-Israel agenda, all you are doing is creating a scenario where Vietnam looks like a kid's picnic.
By butchering civilians there, you're far more likely to breed revenge suicide attacks as seen around Europe in the past & in the future.
Great, that's what's really needed. Thanks.

I must have missed the part of my own post where I said that Western forces should be butchering innocent civilians. Clearly I, like every other non-psychopath, think that the coalition forces should only engage confirmed military targets, even if that means significantly higher military casualties. And the Taliban don't have to want to take over the Pentagon to blow up American embassies, or fly planes into their buildings. You should have seen ample evidence of that already.

ArdeeBhoy

08/11/2010, 7:22 PM

Well of course they should, but the nature of war, including indiscriminate bombing, means that their response is wholly disproportionate.

As for 9-11, assuming it was masterminded by AQ, it was a direct result of previous US intervention in the Middle East and the continuously pro-Israel policy. Don't agree with that level of extremity, but continued unnecessary intervention is going to mean suicide attacks in perpetuity. As I said above, that's what we don't want!!!

Rasputin

09/11/2010, 11:13 AM

I must have missed the part of my own post where I said that Western forces should be butchering innocent civilians. Clearly I, like every other non-psychopath, think that the coalition forces should only engage confirmed military targets, even if that means significantly higher military casualties. And the Taliban don't have to want to take over the Pentagon to blow up American embassies, or fly planes into their buildings. You should have seen ample evidence of that already.
Massive civilian death tolls are a direct result of military inervention, this is what happens in wars, its what always happened in wars.
As for your comment on Al Qaeda, funny how your grasp of history and political affairs starts on Spetember the 11th.
Ever hear of the Shah in Iran? Ever hear of the House of Saud? Ever here of the Mujahdeen? Ever here of Saddam Hussein? The Nakba?
Who funded equipped and trained these tyrants who brutalised people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Suadi Arabia, Palestine etc?
Ding ding ding, wrong answer not Al Qaeda, American Imperialism thats who.
Al Qaeda is but a reaction, a reactionary reaction as such.
Al Qaeda would not exist if America did not create a context in which it was able to breath.
America reaps what it sows.

Rasputin

09/11/2010, 11:16 AM

I'd call it honoring those who gave their lives.

I don't think it actually needs that- in practice the Appeal has been almost self-sustaining, as one war and its veterans succeeds the next. It's a popular charity first, even if the element of fetishising the military has grown.

See above.

Both are deserving of sympathy/ charity, it's not a zero sum game. In any case, that it's a charity obviously gives you a choice whether to contribute. If you're unsympathetic or even hostile, fair enough. Ignore the Appeal.

Sorry to hear that. What happened next?

This is a bit silly- obviously it is a charity, and a popular one as detailed above. It's clearly not mainly about WW1 any more, given that all the veterans have died. And twhatever you think of the British or German Empires' motives in 1914, there will be crippled veterans, widows and orphans in 2014.

I'd avoid XF if I were you, probably help your blood pressure.
Look GR I could argue about this with you all day but the basics of this is that im guessing we come from very different contexts which deeply influences our perspectives on such things as the British Military and what is British Nationalism etc.
I wont convince you of my perspective and im sure as hell you wont be able to convince me that the Poppy is just a charity for injured vets and the like.

peadar1987

09/11/2010, 1:03 PM

Massive civilian death tolls are a direct result of military inervention, this is what happens in wars, its what always happened in wars.
As for your comment on Al Qaeda, funny how your grasp of history and political affairs starts on Spetember the 11th.
Ever hear of the Shah in Iran? Ever hear of the House of Saud? Ever here of the Mujahdeen? Ever here of Saddam Hussein? The Nakba?
Who funded equipped and trained these tyrants who brutalised people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Suadi Arabia, Palestine etc?
Ding ding ding, wrong answer not Al Qaeda, American Imperialism thats who.
Al Qaeda is but a reaction, a reactionary reaction as such.
Al Qaeda would not exist if America did not create a context in which it was able to breath.
America reaps what it sows.

Did you even read my first post? I opposed the invasion of Iraq. And I mention people like Mossadeq in the Obama thread. However, it's not the rich oil magnates and weapons manufacturers in America who are going to suffer if the troops pull out tomorrow. It's the millions of people who are going to be killed when the countries go back to the warlords. The troops shouldn't have gone in in the first place, and once they were in, they definitely shouldn't have killed civilians, but millions of people will almost certainly die unless they stay to hold the country together until domestic security forces are capable of doing it themselves. Otherwise all that's going to happen is another Darfur.

Lim till i die

09/11/2010, 1:07 PM

I know a woman who had dealings with the Royal British Legion and they are fantastic people, would put an awful lot of our own holy catholic irish organisations to shame.

I wish the world were really as black and white as it is for a lot of the people on this thread, twould make life life a lot easier!!

Rasputin

10/11/2010, 9:40 AM

Did you even read my first post? I opposed the invasion of Iraq. And I mention people like Mossadeq in the Obama thread. However, it's not the rich oil magnates and weapons manufacturers in America who are going to suffer if the troops pull out tomorrow. It's the millions of people who are going to be killed when the countries go back to the warlords. The troops shouldn't have gone in in the first place, and once they were in, they definitely shouldn't have killed civilians, but millions of people will almost certainly die unless they stay to hold the country together until domestic security forces are capable of doing it themselves. Otherwise all that's going to happen is another Darfur.
Ohh I see so your line is the classic, 'we made a mistake going in but the troops must stay for the good of the people' ****e.
Look the troops protect nobody or help nobody in Iraq, the respective militas defend their own communities, the likes of the Mahdi army in the Shi'ite communities in Iraq. The likes of those from 'the awakening' that defend Sunni communities and well Mosul is as good as independant at this stage. The iraqis are not some barbarian whordes who will eat each other because western crusaders who are civilising them will leave. The only thing American troops protect in Iraq is american financial interests, even if they had the will to protect the people if they were unarmed and not protected by their own, the yanks simply dont have the means to defend Iraqi communities.
As for Afghanistan, it was the yanks that funded, trained and equipped the Mujahideen.
These are the same Mujahideen who now serve in the Afghani army and Police, the same Army and Police that is despised by the Afghani peasants for their practices in Bacha Bazai. Make no mistake about it, troops are only their to protect their nations financial and strategic interests, there is absolutely no altruisim about their service no matter what ****e we are fed in the west.

Mr A

10/11/2010, 9:53 AM

So the US spent absolutely vast amounts of money to protect its "financial interests"? That does not sound very convincing to me.

Nor does blaming absolutely everything on the west and nothing on anyone in the middle east (presumably bar Israel). As was said above, it's not nearly as black and white as some of the people on this thread are making out.

And weren't the Mujahideen on the go before the Americans started funding them?

peadar1987

10/11/2010, 11:01 AM

Ohh I see so your line is the classic, 'we made a mistake going in but the troops must stay for the good of the people' ****e.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I was only allowed to hold opinions that I was the first to think of.

Look the troops protect nobody or help nobody in Iraq, the respective militas defend their own communities, the likes of the Mahdi army in the Shi'ite communities in Iraq. The likes of those from 'the awakening' that defend Sunni communities and well Mosul is as good as independant at this stage. The iraqis are not some barbarian whordes who will eat each other because western crusaders who are civilising them will leave. The only thing American troops protect in Iraq is american financial interests, even if they had the will to protect the people if they were unarmed and not protected by their own, the yanks simply dont have the means to defend Iraqi communities.

So you think that the various heavily armed militias with many years of bitter feuding, and future competition for resources are just going to sit back and protect their own communities? Come on, it would be a bloodbath as soon as the peacekeeping force left the country. I think the Americans should pull out as soon as possible, but not before the Iraqi defence forces are capable of holding the country together.

As for Afghanistan, it was the yanks that funded, trained and equipped the Mujahideen.
These are the same Mujahideen who now serve in the Afghani army and Police, the same Army and Police that is despised by the Afghani peasants for their practices in Bacha Bazai. Make no mistake about it, troops are only their to protect their nations financial and strategic interests, there is absolutely no altruisim about their service no matter what ****e we are fed in the west.
I never said there was any altruism, but no matter how bad the motives were, millions will die if the troops pull out before the countries are ready. I utterly condemn the actions of some British and American troops in Iraq, but then again, I utterly condemn the heavy-handedness the Gardaí show on occasion. Doesn't mean I think they should be disbanded.