Weekend Latest 22-24 Oct

[Charlie Darwin]

If you enter an agreement to repay all debts over, say, 10 years as part of a goodwill donation, it becomes a bit more manageable because you've taken out the time pressure of repaying, which is a major factor. You're under no legal obligation to repay - you don't technically owe the money - so you can't be sued for slow payment.
Even if that were desirable and financially viable, that's still a large amount of money from the club's operating budget that could otherwise be spent on the football pitch. Debt like that is a noose around anyone's neck, whether it's legally a debt or just a voluntary commitment. It might be in some creditors' interests for the club to service all of its debts, but not all of them, and if a club like Derry goes to the wall, the effect is a lot wider than just the people who are owed money.

[pineapple stu]

Yep, not going to argue with that. But it would be possible to make the repayments from their current revenues, which was my only point.

[OneRedArmy]

Yep, not going to argue with that. But it would be possible to make the repayments from their current revenues, which was my only point.If we're talking about moral obligations then surely you'd argue that every club that has been through an examinership process where creditors received less than 100% or indeed any club that has failed to pay a supplier in full should, morally speaking, make good that debt?

[pineapple stu]

I think you'd have to, yep.

[Sam_Heggy]

So Derry writing off almost €1million in debt, bypassing the A League and allowed to have a budget which is vastly higher than the rest of sides in the division is punishment?
Who has exactly suffered in this situation, other than the creditors?

So what's different in Derry 2009 and 2010?
-They played pre-season in the "old" Derry's 2009 strip.
-They have the same manager as before.
-The same colours.
-The old club's (1994-2009 and 1928-1994) honours.
-Have founded in 1928 on the club crest.
-Play in the Brandywell.

Cobh were drop kicked into the A-League with their debt whilst Kildare and Kilkenny were simply allowed to fold from senior football.

No surprise that other clubs fans may back Derry in this, after all, their club may be looking at the same avenue in the not too distant future.

By the way, it is sour grapes, I have no problem admitting that. We, as a club, bust our hump every season with fundraisers and ticket draws to keep the club afloat whilst trying to field 3 or more sides and service debt. We also saw our club undergo a huge review to sort out the working of the club and to ensure that the huge debt is not run up again.
In turn, a club that cheated to gain sucess in European and domestic competition can start a fresh and buy their way straight back to the Premier Division again.

Rant over, now bring on the usual whiter than white Derry fans with their usual "get over it" bullology.

[pineapple stu]

No-one was willing to take over the mantle of running Kildare and Kilkenny; those cases are completely different to here.

You'd imagine the Derry directors would have been banned from running companies, so they'd suffer as well. Which would be good.

[OneRedArmy]

I think you'd have to, yep.I agree.

And the logical follow on from that is that all those fans who spout moral outrage, yet hide behind their club having stiffed their creditors by way of a "mutual agreement", e.g. successful examinership debt forgiveness, are, simply, hypocrites of the highest order?

(I recognise UCD aren't among the above bunch, not having to my knowledge stiffed anyone)

[Candystripe]

Derry City FC/or friends of DCFC have paid over £100k to debters this season. That's including honouring the pre-paid season tickets bought last year.

[Charlie Darwin]

Cobh were drop kicked into the A-League with their debt whilst Kildare and Kilkenny were simply allowed to fold from senior football.
Should Derry pay their debts too?

Cobh and Derry suffered similar difficulties - the only difference is that for Cobh it made more business sense to restructure, while Derry was beyond repair. For Cobh restructuring meant dropping to a lower level to build a squad from scratch, whereas Derry have enough fans to generate a budget to sustain a First Division team. It's nothing to do with fairness - if Cobh had presented a credible business plan for starting the season in D1, they would have been considered too.

[pineapple stu]

Derry City FC/or friends of DCFC have paid over £100k to debters this season. That's including honouring the pre-paid season tickets bought last year.
Paynig your debtors? No wonder ye're fecked...


I agree.

And the logical follow on from that is that all those fans who spout moral outrage, yet hide behind their club having stiffed their creditors by way of a "mutual agreement", e.g. successful examinership debt forgiveness, are, simply, hypocrites of the highest order?
Did Harps do that? But yeah, you would have to agree.

[OneRedArmy]

Paynig your debtors? No wonder ye're fecked...


Did Harps do that? But yeah, you would have to agree.I wasn't referring to Harps specifically. But I'd guess the list of clubs that haven't shafted suppliers, shareholders etc. over the years is a fairly short one.

[dcfc_1928]

Surely using your logic, if Finn Harps Cooperative Society Limited didn't "own" Finn Harps FC in 1974 then you'd have to remove the FAI Cup win from your list of honours?


So Derry writing off almost €1million in debt, bypassing the A League and allowed to have a budget which is vastly higher than the rest of sides in the division is punishment?
Who has exactly suffered in this situation, other than the creditors?

So what's different in Derry 2009 and 2010?
-They played pre-season in the "old" Derry's 2009 strip.
-They have the same manager as before.
-The same colours.
-The old club's (1994-2009 and 1928-1994) honours.
-Have founded in 1928 on the club crest.
-Play in the Brandywell.

Cobh were drop kicked into the A-League with their debt whilst Kildare and Kilkenny were simply allowed to fold from senior football.

No surprise that other clubs fans may back Derry in this, after all, their club may be looking at the same avenue in the not too distant future.

By the way, it is sour grapes, I have no problem admitting that. We, as a club, bust our hump every season with fundraisers and ticket draws to keep the club afloat whilst trying to field 3 or more sides and service debt. We also saw our club undergo a huge review to sort out the working of the club and to ensure that the huge debt is not run up again.
In turn, a club that cheated to gain sucess in European and domestic competition can start a fresh and buy their way straight back to the Premier Division again.

Rant over, now bring on the usual whiter than white Derry fans with their usual "get over it" bullology.

[osarusan]

I've got no issue with Derry repaying any debt or not. I couldn't care less about it.

My issue is not with Derry, but with the FAI who decided to fudge it so that Derry (and Cork? Same circumstances?) could get into Div. 1. I remember that on here at least the majority of the Derry (and Cork) fans were worried about the very existence of LOI football in the city, and would have settled for a restart in the A league.

The FAI had the chance to show teams that they are willing to punish overspenders, they had a chance to set a deterrent that really would make clubs take notice, and they didn't take it. As Mr. A says, what's to stop another team from doing it, as they have a precedent of a demotion of one flight and (if the team is big enough) maybe even an immediate return to the top flight?

[Sam_Heggy]

Surely using your logic, if Finn Harps Cooperative Society Limited didn't "own" Finn Harps FC in 1974 then you'd have to remove the FAI Cup win from your list of honours?

How is that the same?
The fans bought the club and the took over the debt, how is that the same as what Derry have done on 3 occasions now?

[Charlie Darwin]

I've got no issue with Derry repaying any debt or not. I couldn't care less about it.

My issue is not with Derry, but with the FAI who decided to fudge it so that Derry (and Cork? Same circumstances?) could get into Div. 1. I remember that on here at least the majority of the Derry (and Cork) fans were worried about the very existence of LOI football in the city, and would have settled for a restart in the A league.

The FAI had the chance to show teams that they are willing to punish overspenders, they had a chance to set a deterrent that really would make clubs take notice, and they didn't take it. As Mr. A says, what's to stop another team from doing it, as they have a precedent of a demotion of one flight and (if the team is big enough) maybe even an immediate return to the top flight?
Who were they punishing? The board ****ed off and the owners defaulted. Any further punishment would only hurt the blameless.

[osarusan]

Who were they punishing? The board ****ed off and the owners defaulted. Any further punishment would only hurt the blameless.

Seeing as how the board ****ed off and the owners defaulted, why punish the blameless at all?

[Charlie Darwin]

Seeing as how the board ****ed off and the owners defaulted, why punish the blameless at all?
They'd already been thrown out of the league. Denying them re-entry would have been punishing the blameless.

[osarusan]

They'd already been thrown out of the league. Denying them re-entry would have been punishing the blameless.

They wouldn't have been denied re-entry, they would have been accepted in the A-League. Where the majority of their fans on here had hoped for, and where there would have been a precendent set that the FAI are willing to take a stance on crazy spending.

[OneRedArmy]

They wouldn't have been denied re-entry, they would have been accepted in the A-League. Where the majority of their fans on here had hoped for, and where there would have been a precendent set that the FAI are willing to take a stance on crazy spending.So its now the "we've got to draw a line in the sand somewhere" argument?

Which is an admission that we should be singled out for punishment, versus every other club (and its unarguably a long list) that played around with creditors, the Revenue etc., didn't pay all their debts and got off with it.

[CSFShels]

Its the 1928 on the crest that bugs me. Your club wasn't founded in 1928. It was founded in 2010.

[thischarmingman]

Its the 1928 on the crest that bugs me. Your club wasn't founded in 1928. It was founded in 2010.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nXILHhJLt4I/TFRPmLcoJEI/AAAAAAAAAXs/PeJQGdQ-UTg/s320/grinds-my-gears1.jpg

[CSFShels]

Was your club founded in 1928 or 2010?

[Aaron]

Derry City Football Club was founded in 1928. The operating company behind Derry City Football club was founded in 2009.

[Réiteoir]

Was your club founded in 1928 or 2010?

First dual contracts - now dual foundation dates - it's an outrage I tells yer, a thundering disgrace...

http://www.morningstarr.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/this-is-an-outrage.jpg

[CSFShels]

Derry City Football Club was founded in 1928. The operating company behind Derry City Football club was founded in 2009.
So this is the same club, just with a different operating company?

[osarusan]

So its now the "we've got to draw a line in the sand somewhere" argument?

Which is an admission that we should be singled out for punishment, versus every other club (and its unarguably a long list) that played around with creditors, the Revenue etc., didn't pay all their debts and got off with it.

So it's now the 'why should it be us?' argument?

Unarguably you're not the first club to do it, but with a stronger stance from the FAI you might have been the last to do it, precisely because you didn't get away with it.

[Aaron]

So this is the same club, just with a different operating company?

Just like in 1994, yes.

[Sam_Heggy]

Just like in 1994, yes.

So Derry City Football Club didn't sign players on dual contracts and run up huge debt?

[Aaron]

So Derry City Football Club didn't sign players on dual contracts and run up huge debt?

The operating company Wellvan did. Its no different to Liverpool FC being under the name Kop Holdings or Southampton being under the name Southampton Leisure Holding (SLH) PLC

[MariborKev]

It shold be remembered too that Derry weren't demoted due to debts, but rather because of the dual contracts.

To be fair Dodge, Wellvan went into administration shortly after and is currently in liquidation. If it hadn't been the contracts, the debt should have got us.

[CSFShels]

The operating company Wellvan did. Its no different to Liverpool FC being under the name Kop Holdings or Southampton being under the name Southampton Leisure Holding (SLH) PLC
Its actually a good bit different. You see the old Derry City were actually expelled from the League Of Ireland, not demoted. A new club was formed, and were not allowed compete in competitions the old Derry City competed in (the Setanta Cup being the 1 that remained). Liverpool will still be allowed compete in their competitions, because it isn't a new club, just a different holding company. Derry on the other hand had to set up a new club, with a new holding company.

[OneRedArmy]

So Derry City Football Club didn't sign players on dual contracts and run up huge debt?I think strictly Derry City FC (the FAI registered football club) did the dodgy dealings with the contracts, whilst Wellvan ran up the debts (as the company is the body corporate).

No matter how much people want it not to be true, the club and the operating company are not the same. This is enshrined in corporate law in pretty much every jurisdiction, which is super equivalent to the rules of any football association.

A club is whatever it wants to be and is only bound by the rules of whatever association it maintains membership of.

As proof, everyone who tries to support the view we are somehow not Derry City ends up referring back to the change in operating companies. You're comparing fish and bicycles.

On the basis we own the right to trade as Derry City FC, which we do,and nobody else can be Derry City FC, which they can't, WE ARE DERRY CITY FC.

We can refer to past triumphs, history and the like as we see fit. FFS we were out of senior football for over a decade and nobody other then the IL bigot brigade queried us including those results in our history.

Build a bridge and get over it.....

[Aaron]

Its actually a good bit different. You see the old Derry City were actually expelled from the League Of Ireland, not demoted. A new club was formed, and were not allowed compete in competitions the old Derry City competed in (the Setanta Cup being the 1 that remained). Liverpool will still be allowed compete in their competitions, because it isn't a new club, just a different holding company. Derry on the other hand had to set up a new club, with a new holding company.

It was the other clubs who objected to Derry playing in the Setanta Cup, not the committe itself. Sure at the start of the season Derry were rumoured to be told our first game of the season was to be against Linfield.

Whether you or any other person likes it or not, Derry City of now is the same as Derry City of 1928, honours included.

[CSFShels]

It was the other clubs who objected to Derry playing in the Setanta Cup, not the committe itself. Sure at the start of the season Derry were rumoured to be told our first game of the season was to be against Linfield.

Whether you or any other person likes it or not, Derry City of now is the same as Derry City of 1928, honours included.
The clubs objected on the basis that the Derry City who had competed earlier in the competition had ceased to exist. Their objection was successful.

[Aaron]

The clubs objected on the basis that the Derry City who had competed earlier in the competition had ceased to exist. Their objection was successful.

Can I ask you did you have the same reservations in 1994?

[CSFShels]

Can I ask you did you have the same reservations in 1994?
I don't think my 7 year old self thought these things through to be perfectly honest.

[Charlie Darwin]

They wouldn't have been denied re-entry, they would have been accepted in the A-League. Where the majority of their fans on here had hoped for, and where there would have been a precendent set that the FAI are willing to take a stance on crazy spending.
The A Championship isn't part of the League of Ireland.

[GalwayRed]

The A Championship isn't part of the League of Ireland.
Yes it is.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yes it is.
No, it isn't.

http://www.airtricityleague.com/index.php/matchzone/a-championship/information

[bullit]

Yes it is.


No, it isn't.

Panto season has started early here!!

[GalwayRed]

No, it isn't.

http://www.airtricityleague.com/index.php/matchzone/a-championship/information

Seems not by that piece alright. But Derry still would have been allowed entrance to the A Championship seeing as it is the FAI who are in charge of it. Clubs can get promoted to the first division through it so Derry would have hardly been isolated down there.
I'm not going to get into the argument of what league Derry should have started in, just pointing this out.

[Candystripe]

Great to see the Shels and harps fans getting this out of their systems,it makes winning the league even better lol

The good news is this time next year you's can do it all over again when Cork win the league.

[osarusan]

The A Championship isn't part of the League of Ireland.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't have put Derry in there. They could have put them in there just as easily as the First Div.

[shantykelly]

That doesn't mean that they couldn't have put Derry in there. They could have put them in there just as easily as the First Div.

Exactly, the FAI chose to put Derry into the First Division. Who on here, in all honesty, would have rejected such an offer if they faced similar circumstances?

[osarusan]

Exactly, the FAI chose to put Derry into the First Division. Who on here, in all honesty, would have rejected such an offer if they faced similar circumstances?

As I've repeatedly said, I've got no problem with Derry. They were offered a place in the first division - of course they're going to take it.

We agree that the FAI chose to put Derry in Div. 1 when they could have put them elsewhere - my problem is that the FAI spurned a good chance to show they are willing to get seriously tough with overspending clubs. Derry will spend one year out of the premier with all their debts wipe clean - not as strong as deterrent as I'd like.

[micls]

We agree that the FAI chose to put Derry in Div. 1 when they could have put them elsewhere - my problem is that the FAI spurned a good chance to show they are willing to get seriously tough with overspending clubs. Derry will spend one year out of the premier with all theid debts wipe clean - not as strong as deterrent as I'd like.

I think half the problem for the FAI was the amount of clubs that fecked up last year and the lack of replacements.

We applied for an A championship licence, then upgraded it to first division simply because we met the criteria so we might as well have that licence. This was before the going bust thing. We fully expected the A championship before the Derry saga.

If the FAI had demoted both ourselves and Derry to the A championship they would have had to re-jig the league set-up and only have 10 in the first division, as none of the other A championship clubs qualified for First division licences.

Now a 10 team first division wouldn't really be much different but it would be a change from what they wanted. But you're right, it might have been more of a deterrent.

Also, it would have meant that at least one of ourselves or Derry would have had to spend 2 years in the A championship, something the FAI would have wanted to avoid, crowds etc.

Personally I think if the Derry thing hadn't happened, there's a chance they would have kicked us to the A championship(or the other way around if it had been only 1 club) and fudged Cobh to Division1 or something, as a punishment, but when they fidged for Derry they then had to accept our valid licence application when there was another spot

[osarusan]

Also, it would have meant that at least one of ourselves or Derry would have had to spend 2 years in the A championship, something the FAI would have wanted to avoid, crowds etc.

This is the key point in my opinion. Of course Derry and Cork are big teams and bring a lot to the LOI, but this has to be (or should be) balanced against the need to stop clubs overspending. I just think the FAI got the balance wrong.

[Charlie Darwin]

That doesn't mean that they couldn't have put Derry in there. They could have put them in there just as easily as the First Div.
Of course, and they chose the better option. Nobody would have benefited from Derry destroying every other side in the A Championship.

[Martinho II]

I think half the problem for the FAI was the amount of clubs that fecked up last year and the lack of replacements.

We applied for an A championship licence, then upgraded it to first division simply because we met the criteria so we might as well have that licence. This was before the going bust thing. We fully expected the A championship before the Derry saga.

If the FAI had demoted both ourselves and Derry to the A championship they would have had to re-jig the league set-up and only have 10 in the first division, as none of the other A championship clubs qualified for First division licences.

Now a 10 team first division wouldn't really be much different but it would be a change from what they wanted. But you're right, it might have been more of a deterrent.

Also, it would have meant that at least one of ourselves or Derry would have had to spend 2 years in the A championship, something the FAI would have wanted to avoid, crowds etc.

Personally I think if the Derry thing hadn't happened, there's a chance they would have kicked us to the A championship(or the other way around if it had been only 1 club) and fudged Cobh to Division1 or something, as a punishment, but when they fidged for Derry they then had to accept our valid licence application when there was another spot
I know this question is off topic micls but with cork city foras are ye allowed to keep the old cork citys honours list or is this wiped out altogether now??:confused:

[GalwayRed]

Great to see the Shels and harps fans getting this out of their systems,it makes winning the league even better lol

The good news is this time next year you's can do it all over again when Cork win the league.
Sure after we won the league in 2006 there was outrage from the Derry fans. But now it's your own club it's a different story.