Slovakia V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 12th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier [Archive] - Page 2

geysir

11/10/2010, 1:25 AM

To be fair I haven't watched them since the European qualifiers. But he has been getting games, and scored a couple, albeit from the penalty spot. Basically I reckon Murphy because he is playing, and we don't have many other physical forwards. I know some people will say its nuts calling someone up because he can put himself about a bit, but throughout his career Robbie has always looked better beside a powerful forward, be it Viduka, Mido, Berbatov etc.
The best that can be said about him is that he is excellent with taking the penalties, including the real pressure ones. He has not yet nailed a first team place and is unlikely to. He is not close to even being ahead of Samaras in the queue.

geysir

11/10/2010, 1:39 AM

Whelan (who admitted today that he is suffering from some niggling injuries) should have been subbed at HT. He looked as though he was carrying an injury. So did Doyle. Great attitude for turning up and being prepared to play through the pain barrier

So now Whelan is elevated to gladiator, after leaving his partner Green in the lurch to take the rap :)

Noelys Guitar

11/10/2010, 1:52 AM

So now Whelan is elevated to gladiator, after leaving his partner Green in the lurch to take the rap :)

No. Whelan was poor and I believe it was you who first suggested he might be carrying an injury. Today he confirmed it. I wanted him off after 20 mins but Trap decided against that. As for leaving his partner Green in the lurch. He left Green in the lurch by his own personal performance which was dreadful. And I have already said Green (who was not good) is taking the rap for his partners third rate play. Green was the better player but Whelan is being given the benefit of the doubt. I was comparing Whelan's and now Greens attitude compared to the likes of Stephen Ireland and Tracy at Preston. Oddballs dressed up as mavericks. pair of *******.

Duggie

11/10/2010, 8:15 AM

long deserves his chance on tue night, hes a good finisher and we need all the goals we can get, put him in there. on Green, he has to go, he gives the ball away nearly every time, adds nothing for me.

elroy

11/10/2010, 8:55 AM

Green is taking unnecessary over the top criticism for Friday night. I dont know if he is upto it either, but even Roy Keane at his best wouldve struggled with an abject Glenn Whelan as his partner against a three man Russian midfield who were superb technically. The support given by McG and Lawro to the CM's was very poor as well.

Judging by the papers this morning, it looks as though Trap is going to make as little changes as possible, with Long in for Doyle in a 442. I just hope that if Slovakia's formation is causing us problems similar to that on Friday night that we are much quicker to react and adapt.

harpstilidie

11/10/2010, 8:56 AM

I think we need to go out there and win this game if we want to win this group. I really hope Trap doesn't play for a draw. 3 points is a must imo.

Might be worth playing McGeady on the right or even Coleman if their left-back was dodgy against Armenia.

Duggie

11/10/2010, 9:05 AM

we really need to win this game, a point is useless if we want to do anything in this group. its in a small stadium tomorrow night so there shouldnt be a very hostile atmosphere. keane and long upfront and id be optimistic.

dr_peepee

11/10/2010, 9:13 AM

Gets me going that the fact that McCarthy "sometimes plays left sometimes plays right sometimes down the middle" apparently counted against him when the squad was announced. If it transpires that Lawrence is out, I'd sooner have him in there than Long or Keogh out wide (even if Trapp doesn't see him as a CM option).

Perversely, I'm more looking forward to the November friendly sqaud announcement than the game tomorrow.

I've a hunch Gibson will start. Same back four, Whelan, Gibson flanked by McGeady Lawrence(Keogh) with Long and Keane up front.

ifk101

11/10/2010, 9:14 AM

Green is taking unnecessary over the top criticism for Friday night. I dont know if he is upto it either, but even Roy Keane at his best wouldve struggled with an abject Glenn Whelan as his partner against a three man Russian midfield who were superb technically. The support given by McG and Lawro to the CM's was very poor as well.

Green hasn't shown in his three competitive internationals that he is good enough to play international football. Criticism of Green is qualified by his performances against Armenia and Andorra. He needed a "big" performance against Russia to prove his critcs wrong. That performance wasn't forthcoming. Running after Arshavin looking for his jersey at the end is despicable. He's a tourist.

geysir

11/10/2010, 9:26 AM

"Despicable", get over yourself.

Green's attitude throughout is to give 100% and he gives 100%.
His contribution is not a lot compared to what we need, but it's still 100%.

Hibs4Ever

11/10/2010, 9:26 AM

Green was by far the worst player on the pitch on Friday night IMO

Stuttgart88

11/10/2010, 9:30 AM

I'd call up Murphy as a replacement for Doyle. He's playing games and scoring goals for Celtic.Shane Long is playing regularly and scoring goals for Ireland.

Has Murphy scored from open play this season?

elroy

11/10/2010, 9:30 AM

Im not saying Green is up to it. All im saying he is unfairly been used as the scapegoat for the performance, when you could list almost every Irish player for that accolade. The system was badly exposed on Friday night and thats why I fear for Tuesday night if Slovakia play a similar system. Although I dont think they have the players to employ the system so efficiently as Russia did. Im a big Trap fan but for arguably the first time, he has to shoulder the blame. It was clear at half time on Friday that we needed to go man to man to have any chance, it was too late when we did. Considering the state of the Russian defence, a real opportunity missed. One that I wouldnt rule out Macedonia taking on Tues night.

I dont think a win is a must Tuesday night. After Friday night, its very hard to see how we can win. A draw keeps us right in there and gives us time to address certain failings between now and March 26 next year.

ifk101

11/10/2010, 9:33 AM

"Despicable", get over yourself.

Green's attitude throughout is to give 100% and he gives 100%.
His contribution is not a lot compared to what we need, but it's still 100%.

"Gives 100%". Is that a quality deserving of praise? :rolleyes:

The chap's out of his depth. His inability to control the ball should have been punished by both Armenia and Russia with a goal.

Stuttgart88

11/10/2010, 9:54 AM

Lawrence is already outExaminer says he's carrying a knock, sat out training but is expected to be fit.

ifk101

11/10/2010, 9:56 AM

Has Murphy scored from open play this season?

He scored two against Bohs yesterday.

Kingdom

11/10/2010, 9:57 AM

"Gives 100%". Is that a quality deserving of praise? :rolleyes:

The chap's out of his depth. His inability to control the ball should have been punished by both Armenia and Russia with a goal.

Unfortunately this cannot be understated. There were at least 5 occasions where the ball seemed to either just bounce off him or he overran the ball when challenging against Russia.

This also happened a few times against Armenia. I admire his honesty, the interview in the Sunday Times was good last week, but he's not good enough to be starting.

As has been said numerous times here and on YBIG, there are (or should be) plenty ahead of him.
Whelan, Andrews, Rowlands, Gibson definitely should be ahead, while even the inexperienced players such as McCarthy, Meyler and even Garvan arguably have a case ahead of him.
He's probably being selected due to Andrews and Rowlands injuries.

geysir

11/10/2010, 10:12 AM

"Gives 100%". Is that a quality deserving of praise? :rolleyes:
It is worth noting that when a player gives a 100% of what he has, we can't ask for any more, can we? We have opinions on the quality, but the 100% effort was 100% honest and in stark contrast to his partner who hid when he was incapable of performing.
So Green is perfectly entitled to claim any shirt he wants.
Your attitude in throwing around strong sarcastic comments around that action is indeed despicable:rolleyes:

Stuttgart88

11/10/2010, 10:20 AM

Nobody argues that Green tries his best but he hasn't delivered on the decent (but no more than decent) performances he showed in the RDS. No recriminations, just a preference for a better player to be picked. In the current squad I think both Fahey (who also has some bite to him) and Gibson are better.

Andrews' critics are probably seeing what they're missing now.

geysir

11/10/2010, 10:30 AM

ifk101

11/10/2010, 10:31 AM

It is worth noting that when a player gives a 100% of what he has, we can't ask for any more, can we?

That's not a quality that should be praised as it is rational to assume that every player gives 100%.

We have opinions on the quality, but the 100% effort was 100% honest and in stark contrast to his partner who hid when he was incapable of performing.

So your defence of Green is based on your assumption that Whelan didn't give 100% while Green did?

So Green is perfectly entitled to claim any shirt he wants.

??

Your attitude in throwing around strong sarcastic comments around that action is indeed despicable:rolleyes:

There's nothing sarcastic in stating that 100% effort isn't a quality that should be praised.

Stuttgart88

11/10/2010, 10:38 AM

There is a dearth of that required technical ability on the ball and the movement into positions to receive the ball.Yep, the absolute basics of football unfortunately. Apart from not having the bare basics we're not too bad I guess.

geysir

11/10/2010, 10:44 AM

That's not a quality that should be praised as it is rational to assume that every player gives 100%.
You are confused and why am I not surprised. An observation that he gives 100% of what he has, is just that, an observation. Opinion was offered on that effort in the context of what we need - my opinion is that we need a better quality midfielder.
It is not rational to assume that a player gives 100% of what he has to offer. We have to see that effort being done on the pitch, then we can quantify the effort.

There's nothing sarcastic in stating that 100% effort isn't a quality that should be praised.
Are you incapable of even understanding what you yourself wrote and what I replied? The sarcasm I was directly referring to was your use of the word 'despicable'.
"Running after Arshavin looking for his jersey at the end is despicable"

paul_oshea

11/10/2010, 10:45 AM

"Despicable", get over yourself.

Green's attitude throughout is to give 100% and he gives 100%.
His contribution is not a lot compared to what we need, but it's still 100%.

geysir, the point being made is not the swapping of the jersey, but the fact that we have lost so few home games competitively, and the fact that probably only happened 3 times in 25 years to ship 3 goals at home (competitively also) and yet all eh can think about is running over to swap jerseys, and not a care in the world, then i would put that down as pretty despicable, im sure he didnt even know of any of those stats either. BUt compare him to lawrence in the photo on his honkers, and everything he has come out saying since playing for Ireland, and i think you get the picture...

Traps stubborness, awkwardness about adapting, about only picking players for 1 position, that play in only 1 position, is really coming back to bite him hard now that we have had a few injuries.

Versatility is key in a squad if only 2 players. Its why oshea is still at united and played in a CL final. Trap comes across as intelligent, thats what really surprises me here.

And anybody who thinks that a russian team that can come to dublin and play like that, are going to have any worries in macedonia is deluded. Macedonia might trouble them, but russia playing like that will trouble them far more.

paul_oshea

11/10/2010, 10:48 AM

It is worth noting that when a player gives a 100% of what he has, we can't ask for any more, can we? We have opinions on the quality, but the 100% effort was 100% honest and in stark contrast to his partner who hid when he was incapable of performing.
So Green is perfectly entitled to claim any shirt he wants.
Your attitude in throwing around strong sarcastic comments around that action is indeed despicable:rolleyes:

Going on that then, you must feel sorry for him. And admit that its Traps fault.

Real ale Madrid

11/10/2010, 10:49 AM

We have huge problems in midfield and selection has to reflect the problems we had on Friday night.

I'd have started Fahey ahead of McGeady on Friday night as he is a much more solid option, better defensively and a harder worker. McGeady left Kilbane exposed on the RHS numerous times and that effectively cost us the game, as it was down that flank where the 2nd russian goal was created. If Fahey starts then its quite possible we would have stayed in the game for longer. Of course its easy to analyse after the event but I would have set up the team a little bit more cautiously against a technically superior outfit.

Conversely - Slovakia look like a much more direct team - they are certainly not as slick an outfit and with less defensive responsibilites, McGeady should get the nod tomorrow night. He is one of the few players we have who can beat opposition full-backs and create opportunities for others. Fahey doesn't have his natural ability.

In the middle Green and Whelan were both poor, but Whelan showed he can play to some extent at this level in the past so Gibson has to come into the side in place of Green. To be honest I have no idea how Green got into the team in the first place, and he has done nothing to suggest he should stay there.

Lawerence barely kicked the ball on Friday night but he probably deserves another go because he has done well in the past.

I was surprised Trap set the team up so open against such a quality side. I think there is alot of mis-placed optimism around the place due to our performances against Italy and France at the end of the last campaign. We are not going to be able to play like we did against France in every game. Friday night gave us a bit of a reality check of what we are capable of, and may turn out to be a bit of a blessing in the long run, especially if we get some kind of a result tomorrow night.

paul_oshea

11/10/2010, 10:51 AM

There is no big secret to how we played in Paris or in Bari. The other teams backs off - wants to hold their advantage and back off from closing us down in our half.
The problem we have when teams put us on under pressure, we get into a total flux.
When teams come to Dublin, close down our back 4, close down any attempt to bring the ball through midfield, we are chronically incapable of doing anything other than lump it long in response. This has been happening for years.
One midfielder who can play is not enough. We saw that with Andy Reid, when he was targeted, we were scuttled. There is an dearth of that required technical ability on the ball and the movement into positions to receive the ball.

Bad weather and ignorant underage coaches all to blame. Seriously though it is.

Yes , optimism a word i mentioned before the russia game. France and Italy are terrible, NI drew with Italy at home and we saw their world cup, so too France and how they performed during the world cup.

Geysir summed it up, its easy to pass the ball and move it around when no one is pressuring you or 10 yards near you.

geysir

11/10/2010, 10:53 AM

Yep, the absolute basics of football unfortunately. Apart from not having the bare basics we're not too bad I guess.
And thanks for correcting my misspelling.
I did wonder if 'an dearth' could make sense in Gaelic,
'an dearth doom'?

carloz

11/10/2010, 10:56 AM

Green was by far the worst player on the pitch on Friday night IMO

He actually wasn't. Whealan beside him was worse. A passenger all game, asleep in the box for the first goal, and rightly hauled off. Green was pretty brutal, but he actually looked really good for the first ten minutes. Little did we know just how far down hill he would go after than though

ifk101

11/10/2010, 10:59 AM

You are confused and why am I not surprised.

Why am I not surprised with this comment?

An observation that he gives 100% of what he has, is just that, an observation.

Grass is green. A pointless observation.

Opinion was offered on that effort in the context of what we need - my opinion is that we need a better quality midfielder.

Agreed.

It is not rational to assume that a player gives 100% of what he has to offer. We have to see that effort being done on the pitch, then we can quantify the effort.

How? Through mathematics? Or your subjective opinion?

Are you incapable of even understanding what you yourself wrote and what I replied? The sarcasm I was directly referring to was your use of the word 'despicable'.
"Running after Arshavin looking for his jersey at the end is despicable"

It's your understanding that perceives that comment as sarcastic.

paul_oshea

11/10/2010, 11:03 AM

street fighter 2 has just popped into my head!!! ROund 2.....::D

geysir

11/10/2010, 11:26 AM

How? Through mathematics? Or your subjective opinion?

Do you just assume a player on the pitch gives a 100% of what he has to offer?
I tend to watch a game and subjectively observe if a player is below par, on par, or above par.

You are confusing the intent to go on the pitch with 100% desire to do the best (an honest assumption?), with delivering on the pitch a 100% performance according to their ability.

Noelys Guitar

11/10/2010, 11:29 AM

Westwood sent back to Coventry aster picking up injury in training. Murphy from Ipswich brought in.

Dodge

11/10/2010, 11:34 AM

You are confusing the intent to go on the pitch with 100% desire to do the best (an honest assumption?), with delivering on the pitch a 100% performance according to their ability.

And you're confusing Whelan being stuck in the middle of a Russian triangle as him not trying.

SwanVsDalton

11/10/2010, 11:44 AM

Yes , optimism a word i mentioned before the russia game. France and Italy are terrible, NI drew with Italy at home and we saw their world cup, so too France and how they performed during the world cup.

This argument about Italy and France does my head in. They're two of the biggest sides in the world and much more consistent and effective than the Russia side who just ripped us apart. Rather like the same Russia side (non-qualifiers to the WC, lost to Slovakia at home) they blow hot or cold, and didn't play brilliant against us before having poor WC campaigns.

But the idea they made us look good is just laughable. If they were poor, it was at least partly, and I think largely, because we made them look poor. Petty negativity to claim otherwise.

geysir

11/10/2010, 11:45 AM

And you're confusing Whelan being stuck in the middle of a Russian triangle as him not trying.

Maybe so but that's would be a different confusion based on a perceived lack of effort by Whelan to get actively involved in the midfield battle.
That 'lack of effort' perception is supported by him not making one tackle in the first half and finally making one interception in the 44th minute as well as making the worst unenforced error of the first half with that careless pass. Green made about about 10 interceptions /tackles in the 1st half. He is let down by a poor touch and very limited passing range.

SwanVsDalton

11/10/2010, 11:54 AM

And you're confusing Whelan being stuck in the middle of a Russian triangle as him not trying.

And for me, it didn't help Green was consistently out of position due to his is 'closing down' efforts. Usually he was charging out of centre mid but often five yards behind the ball and nowhere near challenging. Left far more space to be exploited beside Whelan. I'm not sure if it was tactics (though I suspect it was inexperience/being out of depth) but his pressing too far up the pitch meant our usual 'two banks of four' were compromised easier.

Closing down is crucial but just as important is doing it in the right areas at the right time. As Stutts said, remarkable how we now miss Andrews - he's generally very good at this.

geysir

11/10/2010, 12:03 PM

osarusan

11/10/2010, 12:13 PM

I'd agree with geysir here. Green gave 100%, and we can't really ask any more of him. The problem is that Green at 100% probably still isn't good enough for Irish international standard, but there's not much he can do about that. He wasn't as bad as Whelan, I think it was because he was involved more that his mistakes were more visible, and he doesn't have the buffer against criticism in the shape of good central midfield performances previously that Whelan has.

If the criticism of Green is that despite his 100% efforts, he's still not good enough, then that criticism needs to be directed elsewhere.

However, despite all that, I'd say that one bad game against a good team where the tactics meant we were always going to find it very very tough in midfield doesn't mean his career is over.

paul_oshea

11/10/2010, 12:13 PM

This argument about Italy and France does my head in. They're two of the biggest sides in the world and much more consistent and effective than the Russia side who just ripped us apart. Rather like the same Russia side (non-qualifiers to the WC, lost to Slovakia at home) they blow hot or cold, and didn't play brilliant against us before having poor WC campaigns.

But the idea they made us look good is just laughable. If they were poor, it was at least partly, and I think largely, because we made them look poor. Petty negativity to claim otherwise.

I didnt say the made us look good, i alluded to what geysir said about, the opposition defending deep, happy to sit back and give you time on the ball, makes anyone more comfortable and able pass it better and look like a decent passing team. Thats what happened lads, we were given time, anybody who cant see it whether it does their head in is naive. France were poor that last campaign, struggled through an average group, italy were there for the taking and a better team would have done it, too many has beens. Cyprus were unlucky not to at least draw with them once. It doesn't matter what way you want to dress it up the argument holds through based on how italy and france have been over the last year or so.

Lionel Ritchie

11/10/2010, 12:20 PM

Westwood sent back to Coventry aster picking up injury in training. Murphy from Ipswich brought in.

Anyone else curious about this or have any more info? What manner of "facial injury" requires a guy to be sent back and cover to be called upon? Eye injury? Broken jaw? Broken nose? gash requiring multiple stitches?

ifk101

11/10/2010, 12:33 PM

Do you just assume a player on the pitch gives a 100% of what he has to offer?
I tend to watch a game and subjectively observe if a player is below par, on par, or above par.

Yes. I rationally assume that a player playing for his country will give 100% of what he has to offer. Circumstances within and outside an individual player's control will dictate if said player's performance is below par, on par, or above par.

Noelys Guitar

11/10/2010, 12:45 PM

Anyone else curious about this or have any more info? What manner of "facial injury" requires a guy to be sent back and cover to be called upon? Eye injury? Broken jaw? Broken nose? gash requiring multiple stitches?
Trap posted team sheet with Westwood in/Given out. The old Glasgow Kiss came into play. Shay back in goal.

Dodge

11/10/2010, 12:47 PM

And for me, it didn't help Green was consistently out of position due to his is 'closing down' efforts. Usually he was charging out of centre mid but often five yards behind the ball and nowhere near challenging. Left far more space to be exploited beside Whelan

That was my reading of it too. As I said initially, no one could fault Green for effort but thats not enough. Whelan was completely exposed and couldn't cope.

I think its been done to death now though

Duggie

11/10/2010, 12:49 PM

lads the stadium tomorrow night is tiny(barely 12,000) so we wont be in a hostile environment. with a couple of thousand irish there hopefully this will help us. thats what im hoping for anyway.....

SwanVsDalton

11/10/2010, 12:52 PM

Au contraire in the last campaign our CM was characterised by not getting involved, by standing off and holding a deep line. The Bulgaria and Cyprus home games are good examples. The 'Irish standoff'.
And in particular when we go a goal up.

Indeed, but we do press when the midfielders approach our banks of four, and when we do were usually fairly effective at it (in particular Andrews). Green didn't help matters on Friday by being caught continually on the turn after charging ten yards off the half-way line. In fairness his timing was better in the first half, I seem to recall it being mostly the second when he was caught adrift too far forward.

I didnt say the made us look good, i alluded to what geysir said about, the opposition defending deep, happy to sit back and give you time on the ball, makes anyone more comfortable and able pass it better and look like a decent passing team. Thats what happened lads, we were given time, anybody who cant see it whether it does their head in is naive.

Only in Paris did we really look like a decent passing side. Italian teams always give opposition time on the ball, but generally it's in their own half and so it proved against us as Dunne et al had plenty of time to play incisive long balls on to Doyle's head. It's not exactly pass and move stuff. But regardless is it really about being given time or how poor the opposition are....?

France were poor that last campaign, struggled through an average group, italy were there for the taking and a better team would have done it, too many has beens. Cyprus were unlucky not to at least draw with them once.

Oh. Well in that case it's a hopelessly negative view that ignores the fact Ireland took the game to two sides far superior in quality and gained credible results. These results wern't some lucky gift, we deserved them due to very good performances. Don't you at least partly accept if the opposition played poorly on the night we deserve credit for limiting them?

It doesn't matter what way you want to dress it up the argument holds through based on how italy and france have been over the last year or so.

Or, I guess, how Russia have been over the last year? Guess we should've beat them off the park so since their form hasn't exactly been world class...

I'm not saying we were brilliant or France and Italy were top of their game or even that we shouldn't have beat them - but credit where credit is due. It's is unduly negative, and lazy, to say Ireland are poor when we get beat, but are lucky/the opposition are rubbish when we do well.