Slovakia V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 12th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[paul_oshea]

He was, yeah, but di Matteo brought in 4 or 5 defenders over the summer. He's midfield back-up now.

cheers CD, ok wheres tets when you need him, how many minutes has he played this season?

[Closed Account 2]

full 90 for 2 carling cup games (inc a win vs Man City) then he's come off the bench for the last 15 mins or so in 4 of their 7 games, been an unused sub in the other 3

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/gamelog?id=5081&cc=5739

[tetsujin1979]

cheers CD, ok wheres tets when you need him, how many minutes has he played this season?
From http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/PlayerDetails?playerID=14611&seasonID=140
(assuming a 90 minute game)
introduced VS Sunderland on 82 minutes = 8 minutes
completed game VS Orient = 90 minutes
introduced VS Tottenham on 73 minutes = 13 minutes
completed game VS Man City = 90 minutes
introduced VS Birmingham on 76 minutes = 14 minutes
introduced VS Arsenal on 71 minutes = 19 minutes
Total minutes = 234 minutes played thus far this season

[Stuttgart88]

Paul, what is Trap's plan B to be? You say he needed a plan B because only one player plays in the top half of the EPL. No plan B including other personnel was likely to work in that case. The kick & hoof we resorted to as plan B yielded 2 goals! There were attacking players in the squad: Long, Keogh, Fahey, Gibson. They all featured in the two games. Treacy was unavailable, and we all know Duff & Hunt were too.

Most criticism is correctly aimed at central midfield. I won't argue for Trap's omission of Andy Reid, though match fitness was questionable last week. McCarthy excepted, we can't just magic up a bunch of quality midfielders. Though I would pick McCarthy myself, being an ever present at Wigan isn't a compelling argument to pick anyone. I like Wilson too. I'm sure Trap would have looked at each in May if they had come over for training.

You might well make me agree with you, but you'll have to present a better argument. As I say I'm 60/40 in Trap's favour. I'm bitterly disappointed that we have shown no variation in shape and little variation in tactics which is what I expected when he took over. However, with so many players injured or not match fit, or having barely established themselves at their clubs, I've got to cut the guy a bit of slack. I think we did enough to win on Tuesday and a fit Robbie would probably have rendered this discussion irrelevant.

[Stuttgart88]

Good article from Malone. No problem with him whatsoever.Yes, agreed, though of the players named was any of them a realistic option last week? Wilson maybe - Trap was very positive about him in The Examiner (below). In fact that article just copperfastens the view that we are missing shed loads of players.

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/soccer/trapattoni-looks-for-winter-growth-133512.html

Another article saying he might be flexible, but he remains very cautious arguing we must treat the Celtic cup matches seriously.

I dunno - I'm torn. For all his conservatism, which I do find frustrating, very frustrating, we were missing players or fielding players short of fitness. The sheer number of players affected can only have been detrimental and in fairness the newbies acquitted themselves very well. If McCarthy, Wilson & Ward had all turned up in May then maybe the jigsaw would be nearer completion, but they didn't. We can say Trap is conservative, but I can't think of many Irish (or other) managers who fielded a rookie in an important qualifier without looking at him in practice first.

I can see the merit in a 5 man midfield to give greater numbers but dropping one of Doyle & Keane is a bold move - or would have been in hindsight. Valuable player that he is, the "rule" that Keane is undroppable may no longer hold.

[shakermaker1982]

If we went 4-5-1 then you'd have to have Doyle as your focal point. The lone man needs to be able to hold the ball up, be strong, win headers and link the play. It's hard on Keane but if it's for the good of the team then he'll have to grin and bear it.

4-5-1 doesn't have to be negative if the two wide players get forward and support. The third central midfielder can also support when in possession of the football. I'm not a huge fan of the formation but if more and more teams are using it then we need to adapt. If we are getting outnumbered in midfield then it's surely common sense to make a change and match them up? I think Di Matteo at WBA has done this on a couple of occasions this season at half time after 4-4-2 resulted in them seeing very little of the football. It made a difference as well and they went on to dominate the second half.

[DeNiro]

From reading the links provided, it appears Trappatoni is opening up to personnel and tactical change. Something I personally wouldn't have expected from him, especially in the middle of a qualifying campaign. I have to be sceptical to some degree though - is he beginning to panic at the thought that this £2m a year gravy train might come to an end this time next year?

His notion of a five man midfield is interesting. He has obviously been entertaining the idea of playing someone behind the main striker since he took over, but maybe now his hand is being forced a bit. I wonder has Robbie Keane become droppable in Trap's mind? Doyle has more form and playing time, so it would be crazy to drop him if Keane's situation continued at Spurs.

The Norway game is becoming an evermore interesting fixture. As I said in another post, I would leave Keane in London for it. If he comes over and scores another goal, what difference does it make. We all know he could probably score against Norway. Sacrificing him to give Long/Stokes/Walters game time would be way more beneficial. Maybe two from Long/Stokes/Doyle/Walters as a forward combination for the first half with a McCarthy + one of above for the second. I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about Walters, I've seen him a few times, he's robust and plays up front. That's about it. He's no saviour. I think we overvalue the Premier League like that, he's only been playing in it about 6 weeks. Realisitcally how much could he have improved since he was at Ipswich?

[Charlie Darwin]

is he beginning to panic at the thought that this £2m a year gravy train might come to an end this time next year?
I don't think so. Sure he could make more than that in club management and still delegate most of the work to Marco. I think he's just realised like the rest of us that we may not have the players for 442 anymore than we do for 451 and that we may have been slightly flattered in the last campaign as Italy, France and Bulgaria all play a slow, technical game as opposed to a quick technical one.


His notion of a five man midfield is interesting. He has obviously been entertaining the idea of playing someone behind the main striker since he took over, but maybe now his hand is being forced a bit. I wonder has Robbie Keane become droppable in Trap's mind? Doyle has more form and playing time, so it would be crazy to drop him if Keane's situation continued at Spurs.
I always wondered what happened to his notion of Robbie being the Irish "Totti" - I assume that was another casualty of Steven Reid's departure and our lack of a similarly athletic box to box runner.

[paul_oshea]

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8742_6444265,00.html

[DeNiro]

I don't think so. Sure he could make more than that in club management and still delegate most of the work to Marco. I think he's just realised like the rest of us that we may not have the players for 442 anymore than we do for 451 and that we may have been slightly flattered in the last campaign as Italy, France and Bulgaria all play a slow, technical game as opposed to a quick technical one.

I take your point. But would a manager as experienced as Trappatoni not realise that we would need to play a team technical football at a quicker pace. The draw was made in February. We've had friendlies against Brazil, Paraguay, Algeria and Argentina, did he play a 4-5-1 in any of those? At least Brazil and Argentina play a quick paced game and we lost both of these. Surely a penny must have dropped?

[paul_oshea]

Paul, what is Trap's plan B to be? You say he needed a plan B because only one player plays in the top half of the EPL. No plan B including other personnel was likely to work in that case. The kick & hoof we resorted to as plan B yielded 2 goals! There were attacking players in the squad: Long, Keogh, Fahey, Gibson. They all featured in the two games. Treacy was unavailable, and we all know Duff & Hunt were too.

Most criticism is correctly aimed at central midfield. I won't argue for Trap's omission of Andy Reid, though match fitness was questionable last week. McCarthy excepted, we can't just magic up a bunch of quality midfielders. Though I would pick McCarthy myself, being an ever present at Wigan isn't a compelling argument to pick anyone. I like Wilson too. I'm sure Trap would have looked at each in May if they had come over for training.

You might well make me agree with you, but you'll have to present a better argument. As I say I'm 60/40 in Trap's favour. I'm bitterly disappointed that we have shown no variation in shape and little variation in tactics which is what I expected when he took over. However, with so many players injured or not match fit, or having barely established themselves at their clubs, I've got to cut the guy a bit of slack. I think we did enough to win on Tuesday and a fit Robbie would probably have rendered this discussion irrelevant.

It shouldn't matter how i put across the argument, the facts should speak for themselves and you should make up your mind from that.

The hoof ball was not a plan B, its what whelan and others called panic stations.

Trap could have played with 5 across the middle, insisted on playing the ball on the ground, a manager doesn't just set out his stall and leave it at that. He had more options on Friday than he had on Tuesday fair enough, but with the options he had, he could definitely have done far more than for the last 17/18 mins with a goal down, seems happy to let given hit ball after ball into the air.

Had we gone 2 -1 up I am certain we would have conceded again. Its the same auld same auld story, why you think tuesday any different im not sure.

[paul_oshea]

i think traps argument for the 4-4-2 is not necessarily that we have the players for a 4-4-2 but we don't have good enough players to replace those in a 4-4-2 in a 4-5-1. Keane and Doyle is what im talking about....he loses 1 good player for an average in a 4-5-1. I think thats really what he is getting at, and that we wouldn't create enough chances in a 4-5-1 cos we dont have a creative midfielder to fit in the hole. The ironic thing is, we create even less at the moment!!! Which really should give him a hint...

[geysir]

James McCarthy would be creative enough for me in a holding/ roving role. By our standards, creative means basic general central midfield duties carried out with competence. Not necessarily the ability to spray a 50m pass right onto McGeady's big toe just as he clocks 30km/h.

It was the height of irony to read quotes of Glenn W talk about players wanting to pass the ball around - but the manager wanted something else.

[Wolfie]

Some good points put forward in relation to the age old problem of central midfield.

The full backs situation is causing us a lot of problems and directly affecting midfield also - although admittedly its partly as a result of tactical instruction.

From the aspect of receiving the ball from Given, being comfortable in posession and feeding midfield - Kilbane can't do it and O'Shea won't / is not allowed do it.

This in itself reduces our options in attempting to retain posession and build momentum.

Right now - our full backs resemble the park footballer. If presented with the ball, knock it long up the channels as the default position. For a short while on Tuesday, there were attempts to feed midfield from these areas but nowhere near a sustained period of time in the 2nd half that would have reaped real dividends.

Therefore, a vital element of our midfield gaining / retaining posession is taken away.

It's not only a case that our midfield can't use the ball creatively when they get, there are occasions where they can't get the ball in the first place.

Jamie McCarthy is a very talented footballer but we'll need to get him on the ball to begin with.

[mypost]

Slovaks starting to dominate, we'll be lucky to get out of here with a draw...

Not everyone necessarily agreed......


We've lost 5 points in 2 matches, we should be 4 for 4 and top of the table, now we're going for a play-off spot with a draw in Moscow, a draw at home with Slovakia and beating Armenia and Andorra at home. Macedonia will take points off us and Slovakia.

.....oh dear.......

We've been to France and Italy under Trap and not lost, so we're capable of getting another point in Moscow.


Dropped two points big time. Very disappointed with the tactics second half. And it is the tactics as well as some poor finishing. Not enough urgency. Playing free kicks backwards when they could be sent into the box. It has to come from the management.

We went there for a point and got it. Many non-Irish who saw the result, would have agreed. We can't complain too much. Not losing allowed us to keep pace with the other teams, and we're now top on goals scored before the return legs are played to decide the head-to-head records, if required.

Last time we got a similiar result was in Holland 10 years ago. Everyone cried and whinged at losing the 2-goal lead, instead of being delighted at getting the positive result we needed. We went to the finals, and the Dutch stayed in Amsterdam. The point in Zilina may help us qualify again.

[Fixer82]

Jamie McCarthy is a very talented footballer but we'll need to get him on the ball to begin with.

He needs to be there first

[French Toasht]

We went there for a point and got it.

But why? Why did we go there for a point? We haven't beaten a higher seeded team away in qualifying for almost 25 years. This is a team that we are better than, so why the conservatism? That game was there for the taking and in the last half hour both sides seemed happy enough to settle for the draw. A real opportunity to take 3 valuable points was on the cards, but the belief wasn't there.


[QUOTE=mypost;1499204]

Last time we got a similiar result was in Holland 10 years ago. Everyone cried and whinged at losing the 2-goal lead, instead of being delighted at getting the positive result we needed. We went to the finals, and the Dutch stayed in Amsterdam. The point in Zilina may help us qualify again. [QUOTE=mypost;1499204]

I thought we dropped 2 points in Holland. How can anyone ever be happy with not taking 3 points from a game they went 2-0 up in? Yes we went to the WC, but that dropped two points was still crucial. It meant instead of automatically qualifying for the WC, we had to do it via a playoff and fortunately we were drawn against Asian opposition in the playoff, as had we got anyone else, the task of qualifying would have been considerably tougher.

Would have loved to see us go out to Slovakia with the intention of taking 3 points home. Going out there for the draw, signals to me that we will settle for a playoff. It's a mentality thing, a psychological road block, that prevents us taking very winnable 3 points on the road against the bigger sides and ultimately in a group as tight as this one, it could proove fatal come the final reckoning.

[Stuttgart88]

It's amazing the myths that get perpetuated.

We did go to Slovakia to get the 3 points. We scored once, missed a penalty and a sitter. We missed a respectable chance late on. They scored from a corner after sloppy marking. After that they had a few corners and a long range shot. We played well enough to get the win, we tried for the win, but we drew. It happens.

We did not go there for a draw. We went there looking to get at least a draw. There's a huge difference.

I agree that there's a psychological roadblock. That comes from blowing leads away from home for over a decade.

After seeing Holland beat an excellent Yugoslavia team 6-0 (?) at home in Euro 2000 I went to Amsterdam in September 2000 thinking we'd get spanked. We were 2-0 up, Harte went to sleep for their first, their second took a wicked deflection and from that point on we were shot. I was delighted at the final whistle after seeing Richard Dunne make an unbelievable tackle on Kluivert to get the point. Our bench was totally threadbare that day, if anyone remembers. That was crucial.

It was a good point that could have been 3. Hardly a crime.

[Fixer82]

It's amazing the myths that get perpetuated.


I have to agree. We went to Slovakia to win. It didn't pan out cos we didn't take the chances we created.
In Holland in WC'02 qualifiers we certainly weren't playing to draw either. We played them off the park but they clawed back a goal and then a jammy deflection for anther goal. We certainly deserved to win that game and did our best to win it

[French Toasht]

It's amazing the myths that get perpetuated.

We did go to Slovakia to get the 3 points.


Ok I shall rephrase. In the build up to the Slovakia game, I'm sure the gameplan was to win the game, but I think what was telling was in the last half hour of that game, we seemed content to play out for a draw. Sure there were isolated opportunities and in every game you will get chances like that, but there did not seem to be a concerted movement towards grabbing the game by the balls and turning the screw. I'm not saying we should have been rash or reckless in pursuit of the three points and against better opposition I would be happy to play out the game for an away draw, but really against Slovakia we should have recognised their limitations and imposed our stamp on the game, against (what I consider to be) inferior opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

I think we tried to, but after we had failed to capitalise on being the better team they got the momentum. We then played a containing game, looking to play on the break. I think it's fair to say we started with the full intention of winning the game, but early in the second half we realised we could also lose it. Then experience / realism / conservatism took over and we played for at least a draw with an eye on snatching the win. We can only guess what might have happened if we had gone for it wholeheartedly in the second half, but in fairness, losing to both Slovakia and Russia in a week would have buried us.

In my opinion it was one of our better away performances against a relative peer

[BonnieShels]

I popped in here not realising that it was a rehash of an older thread and I went "Fu*k, how have I missed 29 pages".

I can see where mypost is coming from however I never for once thought we went for the draw. In fact in this campaign where have we looked for the draw? I mean the Russia game at home we ended up looking for the draw after the game went the way it did, but we were certainly going for the win in the lead up to the game and I remember us actually being fairly confident.

[tetsujin1979]

I popped in here not realising that it was a rehash of an older thread and I went "Fu*k, how have I missed 29 pages".

I can see where mypost is coming from however I never for once thought we went for the draw. In fact in this campaign where have we looked for the draw? I mean the Russia game at home we ended up looking for the draw after the game went the way it did, but we were certainly going for the win in the lead up to the game and I remember us actually being fairly confident.
Certainly for the first 10-15 minutes of the game we were going for it, hit the crossbar and a goalmouth scramble that could have ended anywhere

[mypost]

I thought we dropped 2 points in Holland. How can anyone ever be happy with not taking 3 points from a game they went 2-0 up in? Yes we went to the WC, but that dropped two points was still crucial. It meant instead of automatically qualifying for the WC, we had to do it via a playoff and fortunately we were drawn against Asian opposition in the playoff, as had we got anyone else, the task of qualifying would have been considerably tougher.

We went to the WC. It doesn't matter how we got there really. Indeed, we went further in the finals than the team that qualified automatically from the group. I think the Dutch would have preferred that, rather than watching the tournament on tv.


Would have loved to see us go out to Slovakia with the intention of taking 3 points home. Going out there for the draw, signals to me that we will settle for a playoff. It's a mentality thing, a psychological road block, that prevents us taking very winnable 3 points on the road against the bigger sides and ultimately in a group as tight as this one, it could proove fatal come the final reckoning.

Slovakia knocked Italy out of the WC, and won in Russia. You might see them as "inferior opposition", but the reality is they are a serious contender for qualification now, and had we lost out there that night, us qualifying for the tournament would have been extremely unlikely. Yes we could have won, but we had our backs to the wall after the break, and could easily have lost. We simply could not afford to lose it at all costs, and we didn't. Now we have the home game coming up, and a great chance of going 3 points clear of them going into the remaining games.

[jbyrne]

In Holland in WC'02 qualifiers we certainly weren't playing to draw either. We played them off the park but they clawed back a goal and then a jammy deflection for anther goal. We certainly deserved to win that game and did our best to win it

agree. should have been 3-1 up too. just after they got their first kilbane missed a super opportunity to hit back within 60 seconds

[zero]

Slovakia knocked Italy out of the WC, and won in Russia. You might see them as "inferior opposition", but the reality is they are a serious contender for qualification now, and had we lost out there that night, us qualifying for the tournament would have been extremely unlikely. Yes we could have won, but we had our backs to the wall after the break, and could easily have lost. We simply could not afford to lose it at all costs, and we didn't. Now we have the home game coming up, and a great chance of going 3 points clear of them going into the remaining games.

it's a huge game. people seem to be looking ahead to the russia game but this is arguably of more importance. i would consider anything we get in russia as a bonus whereas we simply can't lose this game, while draw could mean we have to go to moscow looking to win.

we have the quality to win it's going to be a much harder game than people think i believe. slovakia are top of the group after all. long way away of course and player availability will play a big factor.

[Stuttgart88]

it's a huge game. people seem to be looking ahead to the russia game but this is arguably of more importance. i would consider anything we get in russia as a bonus whereas we simply can't lose this game, while draw could mean we have to go to moscow looking to win.

we have the quality to win it's going to be a much harder game than people think i believe. slovakia are top of the group after all. long way away of course and player availability will play a big factor.Bang on, especially the bit I've highlighted in bold. Though technically, we are top of the group :)

If Slovakia can win in Russia and beat Italy at a WC finals, they can win in Dublin. I don't think they will, but they can.

[Sullivinho]

it's a huge game. people seem to be looking ahead to the russia game but this is arguably of more importance. i would consider anything we get in russia as a bonus whereas we simply can't lose this game, while draw could mean we have to go to moscow looking to win.

we have the quality to win it's going to be a much harder game than people think i believe. slovakia are top of the group after all. long way away of course and player availability will play a big factor.

A poor result against Slovakia would be massively deflating. I can honestly say that as of now, my concern is wholly for that game. A win would be one heck of a buildup for Russia when it comes time to consider that and I agree, having a full roster of players wouldn't hurt us at all.

[French Toasht]

I think Slovakia in recent groups have been victims of being over and under-hyped. In the Euro 2008 campaign, I felt they were a better side than what most pundits and analysts gave them credit for. In this campaign I think they are not as good as people suggest. In reality they lie somewhere in between the two misguided evaluations of their team

Too much credence in my view is being paid to the Russia game. I watched the entirety of that game and you really had to wonder how Russia didn't manage to take anything from that game. The Slovaks shut up shop after the goal, and for all Russia's technical ability and passing, they just lacked the killer instinct in and around the box.

I think if you compare our and their respective campaigns, ours is marked with consistency throughout all the games bar one (Russia), whereas bar their games against us and Russia, they have been pretty abysmal in both games against Andorra and against Macedonia and Armenia.

Was talking to a Slovakian at work, who said after their two recent games against Andorra, they got slated by their own press but interestingly their press described Ireland's win over Macedonia as "workman like", "unimaginative" and "all perspiration with little inspiration." A tad harsh I felt.

I suspect they will come to Dublin looking for a draw. They know if they draw against both Ireland and Russia and win their other two matches at home to Armenia and away to Macedonia, then they have won the group.

[paul_oshea]

not if russia beat us surely? And russia win all their other games. Surely that would put them 2 points behind russia? Russia get 10 points from 12. Slovakia 8 from 12.

[French Toasht]

Sorry you're right. They'll clearly be hoping we draw with Russia. Outside of the three head to heads between the big three, theres four massive games that I think will have a huge say in the final outcome of the group.

Russia v Macedonia

Slovakia V Armenia

Ireland v Armenia
Macedonia v Slovakia

I think its almost certain that one of the big three will fall on their own sword in one of those matches. Macedonia v Slovakia particularly jumps out at me.

[mypost]

Home wins in the first 3, possibly all 4.

[paul_oshea]

that would as well for me if it wasn't so late on....

[Sullivinho]

Was talking to a Slovakian at work, who said after their two recent games against Andorra, they got slated by their own press but interestingly their press described Ireland's win over Macedonia as "workman like", "unimaginative" and "all perspiration with little inspiration." A tad harsh I felt.

I wouldn't disagree with that assessment but really, how many teams could go there, paint pretty pictures and tear the Macedonians apart without breaking a sweat?

[Stuttgart88]

The last time I checked, UEFA didn't award points for artistic merit. If you want grace and elegance watch figure skating and synchronised swimming.

[paul_oshea]

we have some artistic masters on here tonight painting all sorts of descriptive pictures....poets one and all....

[Kingdom]

Sorry you're right. They'll clearly be hoping we draw with Russia. Outside of the three head to heads between the big three, theres four massive games that I think will have a huge say in the final outcome of the group.

Russia v Macedonia

Slovakia V Armenia

Ireland v Armenia
Macedonia v Slovakia

I think its almost certain that one of the big three will fall on their own sword in one of those matches. Macedonia v Slovakia particularly jumps out at me.

Can't see Russia slipping up at home to the Macedonians.
Wouldn't be as confident of Slovakia at home to Armenia. Armenia will be go there with nothing to fear, and surely they'll give it a lash, as they could leapfrog Slovakia by winning that game.
I'm sure if there is anything at stake we'll do whats necessary against Armenia, but in a way, results could transpire that Armenia, by doing us a favour against Slovakia, could head to Dublin with something to play for.

Agree with Frenchy too, Macedonia v Slovakia looks a very possible upset.

Our game vs Slovakia is huge. Biggest game we've had since Skopje.

[geysir]

Our game vs Slovakia is huge. Biggest game we've had since Skopje.
That's a bit too obvious, Kingdom.

[DeLorean]

Bumping thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVvLOLnFVpw

[DeLorean]

Closed thread.