Slovakia V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 12th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[Charlie Darwin]

As for Reid's eventual replacement, it might be McCarthy, Meyler, Wilson or even Clifford, it could even be A.N.Other playing DDSL right now. But I don't think it's Fahey.
Does he have to be Steven Reid to play in centre midfield? Can't he just be, you know, better than what we've currently got?

[DeNiro]

Guys, for all the optimism about blooding new players, remember it's Trappatoni we're talking about. Consider these scenarios over the course of his reign:
- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.

At the same time, he keeps faith with Kilbane and introduces Paul Green, player who will invariably fall into line, simply because they do not have creative ability.

So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.

In terms of the group:
Definitely fighting it out for 2nd. For all the talk about mentality, Trappatoni has still not solved the problem that is now nearing three decades old - we cannot win away. I think he uses the word mentality cleverly as we benchmark it against Staunton's team, which is not really comparable.

I don't know if Russia have it totally in them to win the group. Someone else's slip up will win it for them. No conviction in them. They were lucky last night with Macedonia missing a penalty.

This was, I think, our best chance in a long while of realistically entertaining thoughts of winning the group. It's not going to happen. But maybe best runner-up would be a consolation prize of equal value.

[geysir]

Like I said, I don't know if the defensive side of Fahey's game is strong enough for him to play in central midfield.
One of the first things that Trapattoni said about the games before he took over was that we were conceding too much possession and territory and the centre of the park, e.g. VS Cyprus, and bringing players like Whelan and Andrews into the side helped to shore up midfield and protect the central defensive pairing. Look at the goals conceded in the last campaign, the majority of them came from play down the wings, not through the centre. Russia were the first opposition in Trapattoni's reign to play through the centre of our midfield repeatedly in a game, almost three years after he took over.
I don't know enough about Fahey to say that playing him there would be a mistake, but I have serious doubts that it is the right thing to do. When Gibson came on last night, I said that Whelan would have to work harder than he had up to that point to cover for him, because he would stand that few yards ahead of where Green had been playing, opening space for Slovakia to play into, would starting Fahey in the centre introduce the same weakness?

Basically I don't think we have a solid enough defensive midfielder to cover for an attacking partner. Steven Reid was marked out early on as a box-to-box player by Trapattoni (go back and watch the away friendly against Norway - fantastic performance) who could play a defensive role and provide a link with the attacking four players, and we still haven't replaced him. After his last serious injury, it seems to me that the decision was made that guarding against a loss with two defensive players was a better option given the squad options available to use than playing someone like Andy Reid in midfield and trying to create a chance from the centre of the park.

As for Reid's eventual replacement, it might be McCarthy, Meyler, Wilson or even Clifford, it could even be A.N.Other playing DDSL right now. But I don't think it's Fahey.
What was true for us in the last campaign is not true for us now. We needed that system at the time. So leave the last campaign and look at this campaign.
Our options are a bit (not a lot) different. Things have moved on. But we look to have gone backwards, by standing still. In other words, the system which was brought in to tighten us up has become the default system. In fact, it is an archaic system which has been abandoned long ago by coaches. The natural progression is to look to move from the last campaign and tweak the changes. The 2 crucial areas are full backs and cm.
We can't play the ball out of the back 4, without having a midfielder who can get into position - receive - and pass - unless the other team backs off.
Nor can we ever hope to support attacking players - like the wide midfielders, without a proper full back.
We have just about survived the first 4 qualifiers, to be still in the race for 2nd place, but our system has been cruelly exposed and imo, taken a hammering. That's the coffee smell I am talking about. The system will hardly get this squad to 2nd place - maybe - maybe not.
I did not realise Whelan could be so poor, I had previously thought he was limited but effective enough for us within a limited sphere of responsibility.
As it stands, he is not an option, until he gets back playing for his club and demonstrates his fitness and ability.

Over the next 4/5 months, if Trap just wants to find players who will fit into the old system, then we are fécked.

[Stuttgart88]

Guys, for all the optimism about blooding new players, remember it's Trappatoni we're talking about. Consider these scenarios over the course of his reign:
- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.

At the same time, he keeps faith with Kilbane and introduces Paul Green, player who will invariably fall into line, simply because they do not have creative ability.

So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.

In terms of the group:
Definitely fighting it out for 2nd. For all the talk about mentality, Trappatoni has still not solved the problem that is now nearing three decades old - we cannot win away. I think he uses the word mentality cleverly as we benchmark it against Staunton's team, which is not really comparable.

I don't know if Russia have it totally in them to win the group. Someone else's slip up will win it for them. No conviction in them. They were lucky last night with Macedonia missing a penalty.

This was, I think, our best chance in a long while of realistically entertaining thoughts of winning the group. It's not going to happen. But maybe best runner-up would be a consolation prize of equal value.Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.

Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.

I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.

[SwanVsDalton]

Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.

Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.

I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.

Agree with this. Trap does introduce players he's just choosy about who and how. He tends to like having a settled squad for periods of games and then shakes things up in the interim, like last Summer when Sledge and Lawrence emerged to play crucial roles in our run-in.

It may be frustrating, particularly when he appears to be picking inferior players, but the team is much different from the one he inherited. Twenty months ago this board was crying out for Sledge, Lawrence, Foley, whoever. There's nothing to suggest in another twenty McCarthy, Ward, Wilson, whoever will be a mainstay of the team/squad.

[shakermaker1982]

Glad I'm not the only one having misgivings about the current set up. Geysir's post is spot on. We are standing still instead of building on the good stuff from the previous campaign.

I'd like to see following line up for Norway

Westwood
Foley
Dunne
St Ledger
Ward/Cunningham
Coleman
Wilson
McCarthy
Duff
Walters
Long

Keane, Kilbane and co have enough caps. It's time to test the mettle of the younger lads.

[the bear]

I'd love to see that team named for the friendly shaker, these players should of got a run out in the summer friendlies, can't see it happening tho. starting to get annoyin

i'd have ward over cunningham, dunno how cunningham merits a place in the squad, nothin against the lad just don't see what he's done to be ahead of the likes of ward and kelly. man city had 3 left backs injured last month and they still didn't consider him, played a young centre back there instead.

mccarthy and wilson must get game time. coleman or foley should get a run as well.

i want to see delap brought in for the rest of the campaign as well, he has 300 prem starts, and he's far better than whelan or green , and for a team thats strugglin to create chances his throws might make a difference, even coming of the bench.

if whelan , kilbane and green start against norway i'll hit the roof, get the finger out trap

[DeNiro]

Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.

Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.

I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.

Well, I did say he was frozen out to some degree. My rationale for this is considering a few things:
- Trappatoni made incorrect comments about Reid's career being over.
- There was definitely one squad in 2009 when Reid was fit and wasn't included.
- Reid, by his own admission, said he didn't hear from Trappatoni when he was out injured for a sustained period.

I never said Trappatoni did this on purpose, but rather the nature of some of his actions/comments and lack thereof in other cases, can lead to a player feeling/being marginalised.

Also, there's a slight difference between introducing players to the squad (i.e. actively looking and qualifying them) and playing those that are already qualified. For example, Liam Lawrence was in the squad v Sweden in 2006, St Ledger v Germany in 2006, Long's first appearance was against San Marino in 07 and Kevin Foley was first in the squad back in 2007 (I think). Ok, he's developing them. But he can't be credited with finding them. Folan was also in one of Staunton's squad.

Who has he added to the squad since he took over?
Paul Green (he wrote a letter to the FAI)
Greg Cunningham, Keith Fahey, Westwood? (could have been there under Staunton?), Leon Best, Glen Whelan, Keith Andrews.
Who have we lost?
The two Reids, Kiely

Fahey is a plus. Cunningham could be. But would people trade the two reids for Andrews and Whelan. Without doubt. Kiely for Westwood? Short-term, maybe.

The net gain is very little.
He does not actively introduce, keep and develop players. Considering him and Tardelli are always watching players, they haven't found a whole lot since Feb 08.

[Charlie Darwin]

I wouldn't trade the two Reids for Andrews and Whelan. Both have been chronically injured for the past two years - Andy doesn't take care of himself physically and Steven has had difficulty stringing more than a couple of games together for his clubs.

[tetsujin1979]

Does he have to be Steven Reid to play in centre midfield? Can't he just be, you know, better than what we've currently got?
I think if we proceed with the current formation and setup then a box to box midfielder could be exactly what we're missing.

[tetsujin1979]

Who has he added to the squad since he took over?
Paul Green (he wrote a letter to the FAI)
Greg Cunningham, Keith Fahey, Westwood? (could have been there under Staunton?), Leon Best, Glen Whelan, Keith Andrews.
Who have we lost?
The two Reids, Kiely

I dealt with this in a post more than a year ago:

So I've done some investigation on this, turns out he's actually awarded nearly as many new caps in a little over a year than Brian Kerr did in his entire reign!
I've left the new caps awarded by Mick out of the equation because he was in charge for a significantly longer than time than any of the managers since him, so obviously he's given far more debuts.
Here's my findings:


Manager Players First Cap Home Team Result AwayTeam
Giovanni Darren O'Dea 08 September 2009 Ireland 1-0 South Africa
Trapattoni Eddie Nolan 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria
Leon Best 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria
Kieren Westwood 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria
Sean St Ledger 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria
Liam Lawrence 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria
Kevin Foley 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria
Noel Hunt 19 November 2008 Ireland 2-3 Poland
Keith Andrews 19 November 2008 Ireland 2-3 Poland
Caleb Folan 15 October 2008 Ireland 1-0 Cyprus
Wesley Hoolahan 29 May 2008 Ireland 1-0 Colombia
Glenn Whelan 24 May 2008 Ireland 1-1 Serbia
Damien Delaney 24 May 2008 Ireland 1-1 Serbia
Total new caps: 13

Steve Darron Gibson 22 August 2007 Denmark 0-4 Ireland
Staunton Peter Murphy 26 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Bolivia
Joe Lapira 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Joe Gamble 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Andy Keogh 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Alan Bennett 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Stephen O'Halloran 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Daryl Murphy 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Alex Bruce 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Colin Doyle 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Darren Potter 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Joe O'Cearuill 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Stephen Gleeson 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador
Anthony Stokes 07 February 2007 San Marino 1-2 Ireland
Stephen Hunt 07 February 2007 San Marino 1-2 Ireland
Shane Long 07 February 2007 San Marino 1-2 Ireland
Paul Mc Shane 11 October 2006 Ireland 1-1 Czech Republic
Alan O'Brien 16 August 2006 Ireland 0-4 Holland
Stephen Kelly 24 May 2006 Ireland 0-1 Chile
Wayne Henderson 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden
Joey O'Brien 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden
Kevin Doyle 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden
Stephen Ireland 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden
Total new caps: 23

Brian Stephen Elliott 16 November 2004 Ireland 1-0 Croatia
Kerr Jonathan Macken 18 August 2004 Ireland 1-1 Bulgaria
Michael Doyle 05 June 2004 Holland 0-1 Ireland
Aidan McGeady 02 June 2004 Jamaica 0-1 Ireland
Clive Clarke 29 May 2004 Nigeria 3-0 Ireland
Martin Rowlands 27 May 2004 Ireland 1-0 Romania
Jonathan Douglas 28 April 2004 Poland 0-0 Ireland
Jason Byrne 28 April 2004 Poland 0-0 Ireland
Paddy Kenny 31 March 2004 Ireland 2-1 Czech Republic
Liam Miller 31 March 2004 Ireland 2-1 Czech Republic
Andy Reid 18 November 2003 Ireland 3-0 Canada
John Thompson 18 November 2003 Ireland 3-0 Canada
Joe Murphy 09 September 2003 Ireland 2-2 Turkey
Alan Quinn 30 April 2003 Ireland 1-0 Norway
Alan Lee 30 April 2003 Ireland 1-0 Norway
Total new caps: 15
I'd also argue that more of the players awarded by Trapattoni have gone on to become mainstays in the squad, than either of his immediate predecessors.

Since then you can add Fahey, Green and McCarthy as well as bringing Coleman and Wilson into the most recent squad.

PS cut out some of the text from the original post for readability

[Alf Honn]

Interesting insight from the intrepid Tony O'D of RTE in his blog: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/features/tonyodonoghue/

Liam Lawrence was not injured. He hurt his hand in Dublin on Friday during the game against Russia but by Tuesday that was not an issue. He has had a sore leg for seven weeks now, but nothing serious enough to prevent him from playing for Ireland or Portsmouth (and scoring) during the same period. If things were that bad, like Kevin Doyle, he shouldn't have travelled.
Once he was dropped from the starting XI, like Slovakia's, Miroslav Stoch, he should at least have been put on the bench and been an option for 20 minutes or so. Instead we lost the services of two midfielders, Paul Green and Keith Fahey, to be replaced by Darron Gibson and Andy Keogh, neither of whom made much of an impact.
For set piece delivery alone Lawrence was worth a place on the bench and to be honest that remains the most likely source of goals for Ireland. Did you ever wonder if we got another penalty whether Robbie Keane, shorn of confidence, would have taken it?


- Can't imagine the dyed-hair one being too impressed with Trap.

[Jicked]

Interesting insight from the intrepid Tony O'D of RTE in his blog: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/features/tonyodonoghue/

Liam Lawrence was not injured. He hurt his hand in Dublin on Friday during the game against Russia but by Tuesday that was not an issue. He has had a sore leg for seven weeks now, but nothing serious enough to prevent him from playing for Ireland or Portsmouth (and scoring) during the same period. If things were that bad, like Kevin Doyle, he shouldn't have travelled.
Once he was dropped from the starting XI, like Slovakia's, Miroslav Stoch, he should at least have been put on the bench and been an option for 20 minutes or so. Instead we lost the services of two midfielders, Paul Green and Keith Fahey, to be replaced by Darron Gibson and Andy Keogh, neither of whom made much of an impact.
For set piece delivery alone Lawrence was worth a place on the bench and to be honest that remains the most likely source of goals for Ireland. Did you ever wonder if we got another penalty whether Robbie Keane, shorn of confidence, would have taken it?


- Can't imagine the dyed-hair one being too impressed with Trap.

To be perfectly honest, that's a load of rubbish from Tony O'Donoghue. Who'd have taken the penalty? Robbie would have, he'd have hammered it home too. Think about the complaint - that an unfit Lawrence not being on the bench was a risk, because the manager didn't consider what we'd do if our record goalscorer who has never missed a penalty for us and would certainly take the first one, missed one, and then we were given another penalty, which he for some reason would be too distraught to take, and which then Glen Whelan, Darron Gibson, Shane Long, Keith Fahey etc couldn't have taken if that bizarre situation occurred. It's like criticising Trapattoni for taking off Fahey when he tired/had a bit of a knock, in case he made another change later on, and then Given got an injury and our 3 subs had been made. I know Trap talks about the "leetle deeetails", but that's clearly just looking for an excuse to turn on a manager.

Lawrence has been struggling for weeks with a knock, playing 180 minutes against the two top seeds in two demanding games would be a huge ask, especially if his injury tightened up over the next few days. Trap has shown huge amount of confidence in Lawrence, thrusting him in to a big role. All of a sudden we're supposed to believe that he's turned on him so greatly that he doesn't even make the bench when he's fit??

A great example of the Irish media looking to stir up sh*te at every opportunity. Expected better from O'Donoghue.

[Jicked]

Oh and as for Lawrence not being too happy with Trap, just read Liam's interview in the Irish Times before the Russia game, the guy is thrilled to be playing for Ireland and for Trapattoni.

[Charlie Darwin]

I like how his first sentence says Lawrence wasn't injured and the next two list the injuries he had.

[Sullivinho]

Fairly odd and contrived piece from O'Donoghue.

[Closed Account 2]

Delaney of the FAI organised a train for supporters from Bratislava to Zilina... Nice to see him mixing it with the fans

1697

[Charlie Darwin]

Looks like he's being erotically asphyxiated. Delaney, you dirty dog...

[paul_oshea]

What was true for us in the last campaign is not true for us now. We needed that system at the time. So leave the last campaign and look at this campaign.
Our options are a bit (not a lot) different. Things have moved on. But we look to have gone backwards, by standing still. In other words, the system which was brought in to tighten us up has become the default system. In fact, it is an archaic system which has been abandoned long ago by coaches. The natural progression is to look to move from the last campaign and tweak the changes. The 2 crucial areas are full backs and cm.
We can't play the ball out of the back 4, without having a midfielder who can get into position - receive - and pass - unless the other team backs off.
Nor can we ever hope to support attacking players - like the wide midfielders, without a proper full back.
We have just about survived the first 4 qualifiers, to be still in the race for 2nd place, but our system has been cruelly exposed and imo, taken a hammering. That's the coffee smell I am talking about. The system will hardly get this squad to 2nd place - maybe - maybe not.
I did not realise Whelan could be so poor, I had previously thought he was limited but effective enough for us within a limited sphere of responsibility.
As it stands, he is not an option, until he gets back playing for his club and demonstrates his fitness and ability.

Over the next 4/5 months, if Trap just wants to find players who will fit into the old system, then we are fécked.

This is what i was talking about 3 or so days before the first game. Its what I had feared and thought would be the realisation, and geysir was one of the many singing from the same hymn sheet as everyone else on here, but the last week has opened his eyes. And I couldn't agree more with this.

[paul_oshea]

Agree with this. Trap does introduce players he's just choosy about who and how. He tends to like having a settled squad for periods of games and then shakes things up in the interim, like last Summer when Sledge and Lawrence emerged to play crucial roles in our run-in.

It may be frustrating, particularly when he appears to be picking inferior players, but the team is much different from the one he inherited. Twenty months ago this board was crying out for Sledge, Lawrence, Foley, whoever. There's nothing to suggest in another twenty McCarthy, Ward, Wilson, whoever will be a mainstay of the team/squad.

Yes but sometimes the speed at which this is done is key. Sometimes, like now, and in the past, we needed these players to be brought in at vital times, or they could have made a vital difference, and we end up dropping points indirectly.

[Closed Account 2]

Looks like he's being erotically asphyxiated. Delaney, you dirty dog...
"Carlsberg don't do trains, but if they did..."

[ifk101]

Fairly odd and contrived piece from O'Donoghue.

Not really. He watched Lawrence train on Monday with no apparent injury. He also understood Trapattoni as saying he needed to talk to Lawrence before naming the team for Slovakia. If Lawrence's injuries were such to keep him out of the match day squad for Slovakia, he probably wouldn't have travelled to Slovakia and most likely wouldn't have trained on the Monday.

Tony O'D is just giving his perception of the events. Whether he is right or wrong, I think there is a rational line of thought behind his suggestion that Lawrence was dropped.

[tetsujin1979]

Not really. He watched Lawrence train on Monday with no apparent injury. He also understood Trapattoni as saying he needed to talk to Lawrence before naming the team for Slovakia. If Lawrence's injuries were such to keep him out of the match day squad for Slovakia, he probably wouldn't have travelled to Slovakia and most likely wouldn't have trained on the Monday.

Tony O'D is just giving his perception of the events. Whether he is right or wrong, I think there is a rational line of thought behind his suggestion that Lawrence was dropped.
you have to admit saying "Lawrence was not injured" and then listing two injuries he does have is a bit odd

[Stuttgart88]

To be perfectly honest, that's a load of rubbish from Tony O'Donoghue.

A great example of the Irish media looking to stir up sh*te at every opportunity. Expected better from O'Donoghue.I agree. Trap is allowed to make value judgments. He chose Gibson for the bench who takes good set pieces. He had Keogh as a forward option allowing Long to move wide right. Foley can play wide right (not sure if he was on the bench though). Picking your bench for the contingency that our lead penalty taker might lose his nerve is daft.

There are probably good reasons to have LL on the bench if he's fit. However, everyone's complaining about Trap not making changes, now when he makes them people complain.

[geysir]

Some talk in the papers this morning (coming from Trap?) about the possibilities of playing someone like McCarthy in front of CM and behind a striker.
That would be a change but it's a change which has the potential for the least effect. Just how is the ball going to travel up that far? Not via Andrews or Whelan.

[paul_oshea]

I agree. Trap is allowed to make value judgments. He chose Gibson for the bench who takes good set pieces. He had Keogh as a forward option allowing Long to move wide right. Foley can play wide right (not sure if he was on the bench though). Picking your bench for the contingency that our lead penalty taker might lose his nerve is daft.

There are probably good reasons to have LL on the bench if he's fit. However, everyone's complaining about Trap not making changes, now when he makes them people complain.

Changes, not necessarily good changes.

[tetsujin1979]

Changes, not necessarily good changes.
If he made no changes at all, our bench would still include Liam Miller, Alex Bruce, etc
It seems to me that the journalists are complaining that he's not making the changes that they want.

[paul_oshea]

Well thats probably a fair point tets. The thing is i think its not just the journalists though, there are a lot more fans on the same wavelength.

[tetsujin1979]

Well thats probably a fair point tets. The thing is i think its not just the journalists though, there are a lot more fans on the same wavelength.
like the saying goes, journalists are just fans with keyboards.

[geysir]

Changes, not necessarily good changes.
On the point about change, you just don't change for change's sake. You should first identify a good reason to change and see what the options are to change. There is a method.
Re players, apart from McCarthy (who was already a solid squad candidate) most of the others are just coming through or just making a case for themselves.
The second question, is there enough reason and options to change the formation?
I have no real issues with what Trap had done up to now. I do have some silly belief system that if Trap so identifies that we need to change, he will find the players to make the change work as well as having the personality/character/knowledge to make it work.

[Fixer82]

I agree. Trap is allowed to make value judgments. He chose Gibson for the bench who takes good set pieces. He had Keogh as a forward option allowing Long to move wide right. Foley can play wide right (not sure if he was on the bench though). Picking your bench for the contingency that our lead penalty taker might lose his nerve is daft.

There are probably good reasons to have LL on the bench if he's fit. However, everyone's complaining about Trap not making changes, now when he makes them people complain.

yep he was about to come on for McGeady when the ref prematurely blew the final whistle

[ifk101]

you have to admit saying "Lawrence was not injured" and then listing two injuries he does have is a bit odd

Injured in the sense that he couldn't play. He questions if the "injuries" fed to him by the FAI & Co. were sufficient to stop Lawrence from playing. He thinks not hence the assertion "Lawrence was not injured".

[geysir]

you have to admit saying "Lawrence was not injured" and then listing two injuries he does have is a bit odd
I don't see anything odd.
Lawrence was a doubt after the Russian game. Trap stated that he expected him to recover and he was brought to Slovakia, however he failed a fitness test. He was deemed not fit enough to play.

[Kingdom]

What irks me is this notion that a player is undroppable, or that (as is seen perhaps in the case above) if a player is dropped it results in a civil war amongst the squad or between the player and manager. If LL was dropped, so what? Did Fahey do a good job? He sure did. In my opinion Trap made the right call.

I think it's sensationalist for the sake of it, and totally unnecessary. I also read the Times interview with Lawro, and his enthusiasm to be involved, and his gratitude, shine through.
Also from reading how (self admittedly) himself and Pulis calmly and politely dealt with his situation at Stoke where he surprisingly went from mainstay to fringe player very suddenly, it doesn't suggest that he is the type of personality or character to throw a hissy just because he's dropped after an evaluation by the manager.

Actually it's sh*t stirring by Tony O'D, nothing more.

[jbyrne]

- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.

So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.


how many of these players are a loss to us given their current form? none

trap has called up more players than any other recent Irish manager did at the same stage of their reigns. do people forget where we have come from over the last 2 odd years since stan?

[Kingdom]

SOCCER EURO 2012 QUALIFYING GROUP B: IN THE face of a fair bit of criticism of late that neither his team selections nor his tactics are enterprising enough, Republic of Ireland manager Giovanni Trapattoni seemed intent yesterday on portraying himself as the old dog who wrote the big book of tricks.

And with five friendly games coming up, the 71-year-old even hinted there will be a little more crowd-pleasing sleight of hand between now and next summer.

The manager claimed he is always ready to add new players to his squad and constantly willing to trade up whenever possible. He pointed to the fact that for all the talk of conservatism, the likes of Seán St Ledger, Glenn Whelan and Liam Lawrence have all made their senior international debuts during his watch. More recently, and controversially, Paul Green has successfully capitalised on the absence through injury of Keith Andrews to stake a claim to one of the central midfield berths ahead of Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and James McCarthy.

The manager insists, though, that team must evolve gradually rather than be subjected to radical overhauls at this level and he insists some of those waiting in the wings will get their chance to impress during the months ahead.

Trapattoni’s apparent devotion to the 4-4-2 system, meanwhile, has been a major talking point over the last couple of years but back in Dublin for a few hours prior to returning to Milan, the Italian insisted he is not remotely hung up on the approach.

As he has done before, he claimed the system with its two essentially defensive central midfielders and attacking wide men helps to get the best out of the players available but, he claimed, he would happily ditch the formation if players coming though provided him with viable alternatives, a possibility he might well explore against Norway, Northern Ireland and Wales.

“We’re looking all the time for opportunities to bring new players into the team,” he claimed, “but it isn’t wise to change everything at the same time. You cannot change four or five players at once in international football because you don’t have the time to tell so many players what is wanted in the way that you could at a club.

“But now it’s important to look at other options. Maybe we change the system too. In 30 years I’ve played lots of different systems. And when I came here, first I thought (Stephen) Ireland could play behind the striker. Maybe now, (Aiden) McGeady could play that role . . . I know all about systems but you need to have time and you need to find the players.”

With only the qualifiers against Macedonia in March and June breaking up a run of five friendlies between now and the start of the summer, Trapattoni would appear to have some time and he suggested McCarthy, Wilson and Stoke City striker Jonathan Walters are amongst those who are likely to get chances to impress.

Trapattoni sought to sidestep questions about which of his players had failed to perform in games against Russia and Slovakia that yielded just one point. Asked outright if Robbie Keane was “finished at the top level” he inevitably replied his captain remains an important member of the team but he did acknowledge the Spurs striker is some way off his best and, like others, needs to be playing consistently at club level.

“Sure, he can’t run like (Shane) Long at 23 or 24 but the very best teams are a mixture of experience and energy,” he said. “Yesterday, it was clear he was not fit enough for 90 minutes because he hasn’t been playing for his club. Maybe he didn’t pass or shoot as quickly as he would another time but we still need his experience.

“He has played a lot,” said the manager in relation to the suggestion Keane, having played senior football since he was 17 years old is beginning to look like he has a lot of miles on the clock, “but if a car has gone for 200,000 kilometres, it doesn’t mean it’s dead.

“When fitness isn’t right, it’s possible a player misses one second, two or three metres and not just last night but also against the Russians, we had two or three chances where those two or three metres made all the difference.”

The points dropped over the last few days might well make all the difference this time next year when this group’s final line-up is decided and Trapattoni concedes Russia are looking good . . . “But their players play a lot of games in important leagues and European competitions and all it takes is one or two injuries at the wrong times and they can have problems. Last night they won but Macedonia missed a penalty. If they had scored it, it might have been difficult for Russia.”

In the meantime, it will be difficult for Ireland. Victory in Moscow seems an unlikely prospect and outperforming the group leaders against the group’s lesser sides will take a bit of doing with most hopes resting on Armenia upsetting the top seeds in Yerevan as they they upset Slovakia last week.

The manager has talked a great deal about the players he was missing this week but the Slovaks are likely to be a lot stronger when they come to Dublin next September. By then, the Irish might well be scrapping it out for second place and it is far from certain even that will turn out well. Unless, of course, Trapattoni can pull some sort of rabbit from a hat.

Trap's options: four-four-two


TEN PLAYERS who might play a part in Giovanni Trapattoni’s team- building over the coming months.

FIRST RUN OUTS . . .

Having declared his desire to play for Ireland, a first call-up for Aston Villa defender Ciarán Clark may not be too far away but the former England youth team captain is only 21 and there are some who might feel they are ahead of him in the queue.

Marc Wilson: The calibre of his performances for Portsmouth as they went down last year marked him out as having Premier League quality and Stoke City have handed him a route back to the top flight. Tall, quick and a strong tackler, the northerner is a technically decent player who looks comfortable in central midfield or defence

Séamus Coleman: Still playing for the under-21s just a matter of weeks ago, there is a growing inevitability about the young Donegalman’s graduation to the senior ranks. Coleman looks a terrific prospect either as an attacking right back or, David Moyes appears to reckon, a right-sided midfielder.

Jonathan Walters: Not the most outlandishly talented player but Walters is a good, solid striker with strength and a bit of pace who is back playing in the top flight after quite few years in the lower leagues.

Jamie O’Hara: Currently laid up with a back injury, the lively 24-year-old midfielder has been away from the limelight for a while but seems to be shaping up for a January move to West Ham where regular first-team football would make him an attractive catch for Trapattoni.

FOUR KICKING ON

A few of those who will be hoping to build on their initial breakthroughs

James McCarthy: Made his debut against Brazil in March but pulled out of the squad for the games against Algeria and Paraguay and hasn’t been seen since. But he continues to mature as a player at Wigan and the fact he could still switch allegiance to Scotland means Trapattoni needs to keep him involved.

Keith Fahey: The Birmingham City midfielder’s first competitive start on Tuesday night was clearly a success with Fahey pulling his weight defensively and producing some cracking set-pieces but the Dubliner faces a challenge if he is to carve win a regular place given the competition out wide and Trapattoni’s apparent reluctance to start him in the centre.

Caleb Folan: The Hull City striker is apparently a week or so away from returning from his latest injury problem and could be back playing by next weekend. Having done really well for Ireland in Italy after coming on early in the game Trapattoni seems to hanker after him but he has to stay fit.

Darren O’Dea: That big night at the San Siro seems like a very long time ago for Darren O’Dea who has again gone on loan from Celtic, to Ipswich, so as to play more. The 23-year-old defender could be very useful if only he can recover his momentum at club level.

BACK OFF THE BENCH

Forget about Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid who, for different reasons, appear to be lost causes but there are still a couple of former next big things that the Ireland manager could turn to particularly as they are getting their careers back into gear.

Steven Reid: Technically, the 29-year-old is retired but he didn’t really sound like a man who wanted to pack it all in and if he continues to recover his fitness and form it would be criminal to let his talent go to waste. A fit Reid would significantly improve central midfield or defence.

Joey O’Brien: It’s two years since the Dubliner last kicked a ball in anger but he is nearing match fitness after a serious knee injury. Has had issues with Trapattoni but like Reid, his talent and versatility should make him a little too good to ignore if he gets back to his best.

Good article from Malone. No problem with him whatsoever.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't see anything odd.
Lawrence was a doubt after the Russian game. Trap stated that he expected him to recover and he was brought to Slovakia, however he failed a fitness test. He was deemed not fit enough to play.
I meant in terms of the post from O'Donoghue, not in terms of the team selection. He made a statement, and then immediately contradicted it.

[Kingdom]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1024/1224257395171.html
....
Trapattoni had outlined concerns over Reid’s fitness in the wake of the recent Montenegro qualifier, expressing his belief that such knee injuries were notoriously difficult to overcome. But Allardyce declared himself “disgusted” with the comments while branding Trapattoni a “disgrace”....

“It’s disgraceful, completely out of order,” Allardyce fumed. “He’s not talking correctly in terms of Steven’s injury. What he is saying is completely untrue and something he should apologise for.

“He has undermined us as a football club, undermined Steven as a player and he has really been very, very naughty in what he has said. He should make a public apology and hopefully that will be the end of it.”.....

Assistant manager Liam Brady subsequently attempted to set the record straight, explaining that Trapattoni was “talking about knee injuries in a very general way”. Not that Brady’s intervention cut any ice with Allardyce.

“There’s no player more honest than Steven and to be dealt that sort of a blow at this stage, when he’s not feeling the best, trying to come back from a big injury and picking up another little niggle, is very, very disrespectful to say the least. It’s disgusting,” he added.

“Perhaps I haven’t got the same dignity as Steven. Perhaps I just speak it as I see it. Perhaps he’s more sensible than me. But I’m not happy with what Trapattoni said, I’m disgusted with it.”....

Sam, you don't have any dignity, no point pretending otherwise. And funny, I would have thought the manager selling the player despite previous comments about honesty, integrety and work ethic, would be more of a blow than an International manager rueing the amount of injuries a player has had?

I cannot, under any circumstances, understand how the "treatment" of Steven Reid, can be used against Trap? The bloke has been constantly crocked for us. In the first few games of Trap's reign, he was the real deal, but since he's been banjoed. The majesty of the link up play between himself and Whelan and the rest of the team against Georgia, but particularily the rain sodden game against Norway was a joy to behold, and it's those memories that make the pitiful performances of late even harder to take.
There were two occasions when he was not selected that I can make out from an hours searching the net.
The World cup play off squad, where he'd played the week before in a league cup game against a side 2 leagues below them, but hadn't made the team the immediate match prior to the matches (v Chelsea), and secondly before the friendly vs Brazil in the Emirates, where he also was just back from injury and hadn't any proper game time. In the first instance, it just would not have made sense to play Steven, as there was as good a chance that he'd break down again (and POS, there is evidence that you constantly refer to of that happening :)), while in the second instance, was there a need for the fella to be playing for us that day? Not necessarily, and given the hassle newcastle caused for the English FA over Owen and getting injured on duty, again the right decision can be arguably be said to have been made.
I do not believe that it should be used as a sideswipe at Trap, Steve retired from international football for good reasons. That said, if he stays fit, and wants to come back, then he deserves to be recalled. He's that good.

Just another point on the clamour for players in the press and on here. There was an outcry that Finnan wasn't recalled prior to the games v France. He admitted he wasn't fit, despite playing for Pmouth, and I don't think he was seen very much after those games. He's been crocked too.

Andy Reid is the legitimate grievence that critics can use against Trap. But then again he has had serious bouts of injury for a good portion of the last campaign and this. On ability he deserves to be in the squad without a question.

[paul_oshea]

I wonder behind hte scenes has trap been monitoring reids progress and gametime. he is playing right back from west brom still isn't he? Would trap be making overtures behind the scenes? I hope so....assuming reid is progressing well that is.

[geysir]

I meant in terms of the post from O'Donoghue, not in terms of the team selection. He made a statement, and then immediately contradicted it.
O'Donoghue said Lawrence was hurt but not injured. I don't think O'Donoghue contradicted himself in that respect. However he stated emphatically that Lawrence was fit to play, but was dropped from the team and the bench by Trap. That reads as total Cork bull.

[geysir]

Andy Reid is the legitimate grievence that critics can use against Trap. But then again he has had serious bouts of injury for a good portion of the last campaign and this. On ability he deserves to be in the squad without a question.
The emphatic way on RTE Tuesday, that Brady shot down any hope of Andy Reid returning to the squad, suggest that bridge has been broken beyond repair.
It would appear that it is not just about fitness, ability and playing style.

[Kingdom]

The emphatic way on RTE Tuesday, that Brady shot down any hope of Andy Reid returning to the squad, suggest that bridge has been broken beyond repair.
It would appear that it is not just about fitness, ability and playing style.

Yup saw that myself and I immediately thought the same.

[Charlie Darwin]

I wonder behind hte scenes has trap been monitoring reids progress and gametime. he is playing right back from west brom still isn't he? Would trap be making overtures behind the scenes? I hope so....assuming reid is progressing well that is.
No, centre midfield but he hasn't started a game in the league.

[Stuttgart88]

Changes, not necessarily good changes.Go on then, offer something constructive. What would Paul O'Shea do? I've worn my heart on my sleeve here repeatedly over the years. I don't know what Paul O'Shea stands for, other than things aren't as good as you'd like.

[Stuttgart88]

Funny thing is, Steven Reid gave up international football (wholly justifiably, for a change) for one last crack at a club career that never had any continuity since leaving Millwall. Now he's a non-starter for WBA maybe international football would offer him the involvement he needs. Still, the message of the last few weeks has been that lack of match sharpness from regular football (Robbie, Shay, Dunne (to an extent), Whelan, Kilbane...) is very much to the detriment of Ireland's results. I thought it might actually work to our favour 6 weeks ago but I was totally wrong. Therefore Reid can't be the answer, though maybe Wilson & McCarthy are.

And as I said on the Ciaran Clark thread, just think about the loss of Joey O'Brien, David Meyler and Chris McCann, and Tets added Rowlands. Also add Andrews and that's 5 very serious CM options not available, and to that you can even add Steven Reid and Stephen Ireland. Seriously freaky stuff.

[Charlie Darwin]

Paul O'Shea wouldn't have lost Dorica on the corner on Tuesday, that's for sure.

[paul_oshea]

No, centre midfield but he hasn't started a game in the league.

was he not used as a right back last year for theM?!

[geysir]

was he not used as a right back last year for theM?!

Them?
or
http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/them.jpg

[Charlie Darwin]

He was, yeah, but di Matteo brought in 4 or 5 defenders over the summer. He's midfield back-up now.

[paul_oshea]

Well, the main worry i had was no plan b, and that trap wasn't including enough players of an attacking style in the squad for the eventuality and I say eventuality because it was going to happen, and it did, that we went down a couple of goals, we were chasing the game, and what could we do other than revert to type of hoof it up, kick and hope. Its one thing to say right lets play this way, but the way we play and given the fact that a lot of our players weren't match sharp/match fit/concentration levels weren't up to it, trap should have prepared better,as the old saying goes fail to prepare, prepare to fail. On this occasion it has never been more apt. Everybody was optimistic going into these games, yet the reality was we only had 1 player playing regularly in the top half of the premiership. The others were either coming back from injury or were bit part players with premiership clubs who were not at the races(im purposely excluding champ players here). So someone with the experience in management of Trap, as he likes to remind us and those here used to say at every questioning of trap and his tactics, he surely should have been aware that we would struggle at least in 1 of the games. What did he do? Nothing until it was too late in teh Russia game, and by slovakia he made the necessary changes, forced I might add through injury of others. Trap did not make changes based on what we all said after Russia, he made them because he HAD to. Would he have done so otherwise?

The rest has been gone over again and again(i.e. who to include, what formation we should have used, changing tactics quicker/formation - again all comes down to having a plan b or being prepared, in the scenario where things might not actually go your way), but i think its been fairly clear over the last 9 days or so, where I was coming from.

Hindsight is a great thing and its easy to say that we should have done this and that, however some were saying that trap should have been doing this all along. We might now be in a far better position if he had.