Republic of Ireland V Russia - Friday, 8th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[Charlie Darwin]

In all reality we should have expected this result anytime over the last 18 months. Its arrived now. Whelan and especially Green have been shown up. Surely its time to try McCartty in midfield and possibly even Garvan. Ward should be tried at left full. Then there's Wilson, Walters, FOLEY who is in the squad, and a f ew more who escapes my mind at the moment.
Foley is turning into the new Andy Reid. He's a decent player but playing him right full will weakening us in that position.

Ditto with Ward. It would be nice to replace Kilbane and I think it would benefit us in the long term but in the short term we'd be weakened on that side as well.

[tetsujin1979]

On the topic of changes for Tues, it's amazing listening back to the rte coverage how biased towards Trap Brady is.

Not once during the half hour of punditry does he offer any alternative to Trap's team, instead sneering at email questions from these 'people on the internet' as he refers to fans passionate enough to make their point. His sarcastic comment that the last query on McGeady not tracking back was the only valid point of the night shows up his arrogance.

When asked by Bill whether McCarthy should be in the team, he took a swerve by responding 'don't ask me hypothetical questions'. This is what we get from someone paid a couple of grand per gig. Souness, Moran or Irwin would offer a better and more impartial analysis.
Why does it surprise you? Trapattoni is his friend, and former colleague, so he finds it hard to criticise him. He's the same with Arsenal games, never criticises Wenger.

[tetsujin1979]

I'd drop St Ledger (who should have been sent off last night btw) for Slovakia. JOSH and Dunne are our best partnership in the centre. I'd start Foley at right full.
And play who on the left?

[Alf Honn]

Why does it surprise you? Trapattoni is his friend, and former colleague, so he finds it hard to criticise him. He's the same with Arsenal games, never criticises Wenger.


The tone doesn't surprise me but the extent of it does. Because I'm at the games, hadn't really seen much of Brady's studio tripe but nearly got sick when watched back on-line today.

I don't think any other country would tolerate someone being so compromised. While we're used to Dunphy contradicting his own points from one week to the other, the recurrent support by Brady of Trap is box office cringe.


Does he expect us to believe that someone so technically good in his heyday agrees with Trap's view to completely ignore the panache of Andy Reid and more recently James McCarthy?

I can understand him being diplomatic during his phase as Trap's translator but now he's being well paid to give an honest view of the game and in this case what to do and who to pick in order for improvements. Yet, he sits on the line of what do we expect from Paul Green playing with a struggling Championship side. Any rational pundit would be questioning why the hell is Green playing when central midfield is the position where we've got most options.

It's nearly as corrupt as the government at this stage.

[Noelys Guitar]

My guess at the team for Wednesday Given
O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Kilbane
Lawerence Gibson Green McGeady
Keane Doyle/Long

[gastric]

My guess at the team for Wednesday Given
O'Shea

Noely you worry me, 2 against 11 may not help our cause!

[Noelys Guitar]

Noely you worry me, 2 against 11 may not help our cause!

This is known as the 2 man system. Very effective in the King Yong Jimbo Five-a-side tourney in pyongyang.

[Fixer82]

What ever happened to Damien Delaney? I remember him starting a friendly for Ireland in London (Nigeria??) and he was on fire in the left back position. Never got a look in after.

[Charlie Darwin]

He played against Serbia and Colombia I think. It was Nolan and Foley who played in the Nigeria game. I didn't think he was up to much in the games he played. Moved to Ipswich and got a bad injury last year but he seems to be back in the first team now.

[Fixer82]

The tone doesn't surprise me but the extent of it does. Because I'm at the games, hadn't really seen much of Brady's studio tripe but nearly got sick when watched back on-line today.

I don't think any other country would tolerate someone being so compromised. While we're used to Dunphy contradicting his own points from one week to the other, the recurrent support by Brady of Trap is box office cringe.


Does he expect us to believe that someone so technically good in his heyday agrees with Trap's view to completely ignore the panache of Andy Reid and more recently James McCarthy?

I can understand him being diplomatic during his phase as Trap's translator but now he's being well paid to give an honest view of the game and in this case what to do and who to pick in order for improvements. Yet, he sits on the line of what do we expect from Paul Green playing with a struggling Championship side. Any rational pundit would be questioning why the hell is Green playing when central midfield is the position where we've got most options.

It's nearly as corrupt as the government at this stage.


Well said (except for the corruption bit).
I think Trap could have prevented Stephen Reid's early retirement. Would love to see the two Reids in centre of park, as injury-prone as they both are. Unfortunately we're stuck with an average Championship player and a Premier league non-starter

[Willum101]

Am I the only one who is starting to get worried after reading this.. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/ireland.html

"Giovanni Trapattoni has defended his tactics in the face of criticism from Richard Dunne about the Republic of Ireland's style of play.

The Aston Villa defender was left frustrated by the hosts' reliance on the long ball during their 3-2 defeat by Russia in Euro 2012 qualifying last night."

The last thing we need is a falling out over tactics between one of our most influential players and manager

[Fixer82]

He played against Serbia and Colombia I think. It was Nolan and Foley who played in the Nigeria game. I didn't think he was up to much in the games he played. Moved to Ipswich and got a bad injury last year but he seems to be back in the first team now.


Columbia. That's the game I watched. I thought he was excellent in that game. Really thought he'd push on and establish himself as a left back. Finnan never got a look in last campaign either despite playing Premiership football.
Trap is one stubborn hoor!

[brine3]

Am I the only one who is starting to get worried after reading this.. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/ireland.html

"Giovanni Trapattoni has defended his tactics in the face of criticism from Richard Dunne about the Republic of Ireland's style of play.

The Aston Villa defender was left frustrated by the hosts' reliance on the long ball during their 3-2 defeat by Russia in Euro 2012 qualifying last night."

The last thing we need is a falling out over tactics between one of our most influential players and manager

It's a made up headline. Richard Dunne isn't criticising Trap, he's criticising the team's performance and saying we should play like we did in Paris. He is the de-facto captain so it's his job to say that.

I'm sure Trap agrees totally that we should pass the ball more.

One thing Trap is very good at, being a died in the wool club-team trainer, is getting the players out on the training pitch and whipping them into shape between matches. Expect a complete turnaround in performance on Tuesday. See also what he did between the two France matches last year.

We're in the group of incompetence. Expect Russia and Slovakia to drop more points. Whoever qualifies from this group is going to bugger off home from Ukraine/Poland after the first round.

[geysir]

My guess at the team for Wednesday Given
O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Kilbane
Lawerence Gibson Green McGeady
Keane Doyle/Long

(Rte panel style) I agree with Noely here - The most vulnerable player to be dropped is obviously Whelan with Gibson ready to replace.

Green has not ever promised that he would do anything more than scavange, harry -hither and thither. He has delivered exactly what he promised to deliver, ie. graft with no guile. There was nothing to expose with Green. Whelan was at sixes and sevens, the most inept display of a player at CM player since the drubbing in Cyprus and had all the more effect on us because the expectations were different from him.
Even Gibson, who tends to wander lonely as a cloud around the midfield, would have had more presence than Whelan.

I would be surprised if there is a 2nd unenforced change to the starting line-up, at this critical juncture.

[ShamrockIreland]

(Rte panel style) I agree with Noely here - The most vulnerable player to be dropped is obviously Whelan with Gibson ready to replace.

Green has not ever promised that he would do anything more than scavange, harry -hither and thither. He has delivered exactly what he promised to deliver, ie. graft with no guile. There was nothing to expose with Green. Whelan was at sixes and sevens, the most inept display of a player at CM player since the drubbing in Cyprus and had all the more effect on us because the expectations were different from him.
Even Gibson, who tends to wander lonely as a cloud around the midfield, would have had more presence than Whelan.

I would be surprised if there is a 2nd unenforced change to the starting line-up, at this critical juncture.

So we'll just be happy to watch another performance of Green not being able to trap a ball and lay of a pass. He is awful and is not an International benchwarmer let alone a player in the side. Whelan was a disaster and has been mainly since he's played for us, but Green is even worse. I think Trap is at fault for his squad selections and anybody here backing him to the hilt as a lot of you do is just brushing it all under the carpet.

Trap has had time to blood real players not these poor passing useless centre midfielders. Lee Carsley would have been better there and what age is he. It's pathetic and was always on the cards. Fahey would be a better option anyone but Green.

[tetsujin1979]

Zonal Marking's review of the game: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/10/10/republic-of-ireland-2-3-russia-tactics/
not as much of the usual insights from the site as you might expect, but it was simple game to disect. Basically their midfield three passed their way beyond Whelan and Green

[SwanVsDalton]

(Rte panel style) I agree with Noely here - The most vulnerable player to be dropped is obviously Whelan with Gibson ready to replace.

Whelan was well below par but he's knows he was poor and I'm fully expecting him to play much better if afforded the opportunity on Tuesday. Green just seem too limited and out of his depth at this point.


So we'll just be happy to watch another performance of Green not being able to trap a ball and lay of a pass. He is awful and is not an International benchwarmer let alone a player in the side. Whelan was a disaster and has been mainly since he's played for us, but Green is even worse.

Whelan is a much better player than you give him credit for, he was extremely effective in the big games last year against Italy, Bulgaria and France. He's extremely underrated by some imo. Having said that he was dreadful on Friday, no argument. As above, I'm expecting much better from him in future.


I think Trap is at fault for his squad selections and anybody here backing him to the hilt as a lot of you do is just brushing it all under the carpet.

No one here is doing this. As has been pointing out to you before, there's a plethora of different views on Trap and his selections, both positive and negative. Mostly these views are fairly measured and emerge through examination of evidence, such as results and performance, instead of being OTT diatribes on the evil's of Trap. Plenty of people, including myself, have been critical of the manager.

[elroy]

Couple of interesting pieces in the papers today. In summary, I think Trap does deserve criticism for not reacting quick enough when the Russian formation was clearly causing us problems. Some papers suggesting that all he need to do was tell Keane or Doyle to drop in and pick up the Russian defensive midfielder, thereby leaving Green and Whelan to deal with two CM's as opposed to three.

Lots of ifs, but remember we actually started reasonably well the other night and couldve gone ahead. Macedonia arent a bad team and if I were their manager, after watching Fridays game, I would make sure we get as much service as possible to Pandev in the box. The Russians defenders are not great and we troubled them almost any time we got decent ball in there (which was far too rare).

Final point, Trap and the team deserve a right of reply. Tuesday night is a must not lose. I think Slovakia are still in pole position in this group. They have won in Russia and havent played Andorra yet (unlike us and Russia). I dont think Slovakia have the skillful players that Russia have so Tuesday is more likely to be a battle of workmanlike organisation. With Doyle out, should we go five in midfield with Gibson playing in an attacking midfield role? Or will Long start on the wing with McGeady given a free role behind Keane. Either way it will be interesting to see how the different approach adopted will work.

[Kingdom]

First opportunity to respond after the game. Very hard to analyse a game from the SS, which pretty cool (again) btw, but I was that much in shock I came straight back to watch again on RTE player.

Russia were excellent when in possession. From the first minute right to the end. They set their stall out from the kick-off, and I mean the kick off, where they passed their way to the edge of our box. We had a good start (the first 9 mins) then went into CMH mode.
We were bad, and there is no taking away from that, but we have to give credit where it's due, Russia were excellent. They were fluid, technically outstanding, and that's the best performance from a visiting team in a competitive match that I've been at.
What system did they use? I know they'd two centre halves (ignatsevich and Berezuytski) and Kerzhakov upfront, but after that, they were all interchangable. Having watched it again. Denisov and Shirokov were the two outstanding players and Shirokov was man of the match by a country mile.

Given was definitely at fault for the first goal. Poor reactions. I thought he looked uneasy in the first two games and I feel the rustiness is starting to show. His distribution might have looked good on camera, from behind the goal it was very poor.
Dunne did not look fit. Neither did Doyle. Berezuytski owned him. His poorest game for us, and I hear he's out for Tuesday as well, so I wonder was he carrying an injury?
Our wingers, up to the stage where LL was subbed, were very tight and came into the inside flank an awful lot, which meant Anyukov and Zhirkov had acres of space.
Once Russia scored they really slowed the game down and dictated the pace. Their second goal was a beauty. A "goal of the group" beauty. 7 passes which went across the pitch 3 times before a superb cross dummy and finish. Unfortunately it once again showed a problem with balls in behind Killer. He is a trojan, a proud Irishman, but alas, he's past it. Still he wasn't the worst of the night. 3 of our midfielders had shockingly bad games. Glenn Whelan, like Doyle, had his worst game for us, which was compounded by having a player beside him that was overawed and just incapable of producing anything near what was needed against the opposition we faced.

As I said I watched the match immediately after. I actually left the pub after a friend specifically picked out McGeady and slaughtered him. I was stunned as I thought he'd played relatively well and certainly head and shoulders above the rest of the team, and to be honest I think I was right. I watched the game again concentrating specifically on him, and there were 4 occasions in the 94 mins where he could be criticised. He lost the ball 3 times in the first half. Every other time he either took the ball progressively forward beat the man and supplied good crosses, or made a simple pass. Indeed twice he pllayed defence splitting passes. Anything good before the crazy period came through McGeady. I cannot understand the bile that gets thrown at the lad.

Summary. Ireland bad, Russia very very good.

[Kingdom]

Also, the final system we ended up with was interesting. He more or less dispensed with the two wingers. Gibson didn't seem to have any impact coming on. If anything the ball got hoisted higher!

---------------------------Gibson------------------------
---------------Green------------------Fahey-------------
-----------Long----------------McGeady-----------------
---------------------------Keane-------------------------

I hope there are changes. Green to go (from the team short term, squad medium term). He's not good enough. Kilbane I'm afraid has to be benched.

Stephen kelly or Kevin Foley need a chance. I'd be inclined to go for Kelly as he can slot in at left full, whereas to play Foley means a switch of Josh to left full.
I'd be interested to see what he does with Doyle out. It could save Lawrence who had his worst game for us also. I think Long deserves a start after the impact he had.
A middle two of Whelan and Gibson, with Long, McGeady and Fahey behind Keane could work.

But no doubt something has to change.

[Comic Book Guy]

Also, the final system we ended up with was interesting. He more or less dispensed with the two wingers. Gibson didn't seem to have any impact coming on. If anything the ball got hoisted higher!

---------------------------Gibson------------------------
---------------Green------------------Fahey-------------
-----------Long----------------McGeady-----------------
---------------------------Keane-------------------------

I hope there are changes. Green to go (from the team short term, squad medium term). He's not good enough. Kilbane I'm afraid has to be benched.

Stephen kelly or Kevin Foley need a chance. I'd be inclined to go for Kelly as he can slot in at left full, whereas to play Foley means a switch of Josh to left full.
I'd be interested to see what he does with Doyle out. It could save Lawrence who had his worst game for us also. I think Long deserves a start after the impact he had.
A middle two of Whelan and Gibson, with Long, McGeady and Fahey behind Keane could work.

But no doubt something has to change.

Agree with the above, some changes apart from the enforced one of Kevin Doyle are needed, back to last Friday's game, what a weird weird game, I would not have argued if the Russians had won 5-0, yet for all their crisp passing and movement carving us open it still took a goal from a free that never was (the 1st) and a poxy deflected goal to beat us in the end. I know Keane's penalty was soft in the extreme but russia were hanging on at the end.
If we can play on Tuesday night like we did for the last 15 minutes we could/will take the points. I watched Slovakia's home game against Macedonia and let's say they were extremely lucky to win. I know they won in Moscow but we are not playing a powerhouse team here. BTW my local bookie has Slovakia at 5/4 and us at 9/4? I'll have some of that.

[Sullivinho]

Am I the only one who is starting to get worried after reading this.. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/ireland.html

"Giovanni Trapattoni has defended his tactics in the face of criticism from Richard Dunne about the Republic of Ireland's style of play.

The Aston Villa defender was left frustrated by the hosts' reliance on the long ball during their 3-2 defeat by Russia in Euro 2012 qualifying last night."

The last thing we need is a falling out over tactics between one of our most influential players and manager

I think Dunne was more scathing of his teammates than Trap tbh, not that he should escape criticism.


"It wasn’t good enough. We proved when we played France that we can pass the ball and it’s about being brave enough. We weren’t brave enough tonight.

"We are allowed pass the ball but for whatever reason we don’t feel comfortable doing it. We’ve got to have confidence and have to be braver when we have the ball.

"Going long is probably the easy way out for players. We’ve got to get our foot on the ball and demand it to try and create chances.

"If we keep going long the defence is going to get tired running back all the time and being left wide open. We’ve got to get hold of the ball and try control the game."

Strong, brutally honest stuff from the de facto captain.

[Razors left peg]

Im just back from dublin after staying up for the weekend so havent read any opinions on the match here or even in the papers. Was too disgusted all weekend and still am really. I just want to say that I think Paul Green is probably the worst player Ive seen play for us in an Qualifer. Ive defended Trap to the hilt on this site in the past but if Green continues to start for us it will be a disgrace. There is no excuse to continue with him in there. He has zero footballing ability or positioning sense. I would choose any of our midfielder from the u21s to replace him, dont care who it would be they would be a vast improvement

[Alf Honn]

Why need anyone on this forum to clarify where the long ball approach comes from when ever-present Glenn Whelan does it himself today:


'It's what the manager sets out and his tactics. Everyone would like to see better football and try and get more passing around the pitch but, if it's not to be and the manager wants something different, then what can you do?'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/doylek_whelang_tardellim.html

[ShamrockIreland]

Whelan was well below par but he's knows he was poor and I'm fully expecting him to play much better if afforded the opportunity on Tuesday. Green just seem too limited and out of his depth at this point.



Whelan is a much better player than you give him credit for, he was extremely effective in the big games last year against Italy, Bulgaria and France. He's extremely underrated by some imo. Having said that he was dreadful on Friday, no argument. As above, I'm expecting much better from him in future.



No one here is doing this. As has been pointing out to you before, there's a plethora of different views on Trap and his selections, both positive and negative. Mostly these views are fairly measured and emerge through examination of evidence, such as results and performance, instead of being OTT diatribes on the evil's of Trap. Plenty of people, including myself, have been critical of the manager.

Whelan was fine when Stephen Reid was beside him for a few games. He and Andrews were'nt bad in some games together but my ratings of these players are from what we have had in the past or others who have been discarded ie Andy/Stephen Reid.

Theres no evils of Trap or his system it's just he is not picking our best 11 and regardless of what you say that will not change my mind. A lot of Irish fans are now coming to this viewpoint. I remember after the WC 2002 and when Mick got of to a bad start in Russia and after the Swiss game when we lost 2-1 at home he was booed at the end of it. He jumped ship after it. Trap seems to be cut a lot more slack than any other manager with the exception of Big Jack who you couldn't do that to as his record stands up to any Irish manager EVER.

[Charlie Darwin]

Once Russia scored they really slowed the game down and dictated the pace. Their second goal was a beauty. A "goal of the group" beauty. 7 passes which went across the pitch 3 times before a superb cross dummy and finish. Unfortunately it once again showed a problem with balls in behind Killer. He is a trojan, a proud Irishman, but alas, he's past it.

[...]

As I said I watched the match immediately after. I actually left the pub after a friend specifically picked out McGeady and slaughtered him. I was stunned as I thought he'd played relatively well and certainly head and shoulders above the rest of the team, and to be honest I think I was right. I watched the game again concentrating specifically on him, and there were 4 occasions in the 94 mins where he could be criticised. He lost the ball 3 times in the first half. Every other time he either took the ball progressively forward beat the man and supplied good crosses, or made a simple pass. Indeed twice he pllayed defence splitting passes. Anything good before the crazy period came through McGeady. I cannot understand the bile that gets thrown at the lad.
I don't understand how you can sync up the criticism of Killer with praise for McGeady.

Yeah, Aiden was good in possession, but he left Killer to fend for himself against two top-quality wide men. The second goal came about because McGeady didn't even make an effort to track Anyukov. Killer was left with a choice between following the winger inside or closing down the full back and to his fault he was caught in two minds and ended up picking up neither man. But the situation should never have developed - McGeady should have tracked his man and allowed Killer to follow his man inside the box.

Compare it to the way the Russians defended that flank. On numerous occasions when Kilbane got forward they simply crowded the two men out and forced mistakes. It's what we should have been doing (and it's what Lawrence and O'Shea did a lot more often on the right). I agree McGeady had some good moments going forward, but so did every Russian player and they still put in their defensive shifts too.

[SwanVsDalton]

Whelan was fine when Stephen Reid was beside him for a few games. He and Andrews were'nt bad in some games together but my ratings of these players are from what we have had in the past or others who have been discarded ie Andy/Stephen Reid.

Theres no evils of Trap or his system it's just he is not picking our best 11 and regardless of what you say that will not change my mind. A lot of Irish fans are now coming to this viewpoint. I remember after the WC 2002 and when Mick got of to a bad start in Russia and after the Swiss game when we lost 2-1 at home he was booed at the end of it. He jumped ship after it. Trap seems to be cut a lot more slack than any other manager with the exception of Big Jack who you couldn't do that to as his record stands up to any Irish manager EVER.

Stephen Reid has NEVER been discarded. He got injured, then he retired.

Trap's been cut slack because he's taken a squad of players who most would consider our most average in three decades and made them into contenders. Sure he's made mistakes but the results - with Friday's glaring exception - have backed it up.

As for not picking his best 11, I've said before only Andy Reid and McCarthy have realistic cases to be included (Ward extremely error prone, the rest in and out of sides etc). Since Andy Reid is considered a bit of a luxury (and has been injured for months) and McCarthy is fairly inexperienced, they're still not gimmies. And I doubt they'd have made any difference on Friday when Russia were rampaging through us.

Though personally I'd much prefer for Trap to have given McCarthy a go by now, at least we're fairly sure he'll get a chance to stake a claim against Norway. And despite what some think, Trap has shown a willingness to introduce those who prove themselves in friendlies.

[paul_oshea]

Russia very good and we were very poor, the bit of a fightback has some merit but it had little to do with cohesive football.
Jebus as usual write sh'ite - Russians didn't make the slightest protest with the penalty award, a clear clip on Keane tripped him up.
Of the 2 at cm, Whelan was much more culpable, hid too far away from Greene and left him to try and deal with everything in the first half. I suspect he had taken a heavy knock to explain the performance or just should not have started.


There is one bit i agree with on that, what do you think it is?

Ive had a look at the stats and a few days to relax and take stock... i said last year that I had a feeling the way we play under trap that we could be found out some day, if not on top of our game. We were found out friday. Others specifically the more regular members mentioned trap had a plan b and a plan c, of which i showed reservation as we never found it before. He had no plan A nevermind any other plan. Whats comes out since from some of the players says as much too, along with the idea of hoofball. The game we played against them required everyone on top of their game, we let them attack very far forward before we looked like putting in any tackle, they cut through is like a knife through butter, had we harried and harassed them, i wonder would they have looked half as good or felt half as comfortable? I dont think so. The "game plan " trap sets out is open to this happening every so often where we are a bit unlucky or not everyone 100% concentraing and sharp. We could go another 10 games unbeaten but I cuold see this happening again. When was the last time we conceded 3 goals at home competitively? was it as far back as that denmark game in 85? i certainly cant remember in my viewing time.

To the game itself i was getting frustrated in the singing section everyone saying mcgeady do something, mcgeady had feck all decent devliery to do anything, he looked good because the rest were so bad. we know that mcgeady is at his best when running onto a ball and then taking on a man, yet kilbane couldn't seem to hit a pass to him further than 5 yards without being static. And to kilbane, whoever comes on again and says that for the betterment of the team, overall balance, experience blah de blah, really doesn't have a clue. Kilbane may not have directly been responsible for 2 goals, but he was 90% to blame for the second 2. He really really offers nothing. I love the lad but like andrea bocelli sang, its time to say goodbye. Whatever switches are required, make them trap.

I think the next game is crucial in how far trap has come with the players and how much respect the players have for him, if we play a passing game for 90 mins, does anyone here raelly beleive that he gives them the freedom to do what they want? It will show that they once again have gone against him and done their own thing, and what happens if we come home with a win then????

Individually we were very poor, technically inferior in every department, lacked match sharpness and fitness and we were not a well oiled machine, too many people in general not up for it and off their game and as said before, the way we set out our stall means its very hard for us to come back from goals down.

[paul_oshea]

Also meant to finish on that, that the fact that trap doesn't have attack minded midfielders in the squad is proof that he doesn't have an alternative plan if we concede a couple or go down in a case where we drastically need to change things.

[ShamrockIreland]

Stephen Reid has NEVER been discarded. He got injured, then he retired.

Trap's been cut slack because he's taken a squad of players who most would consider our most average in three decades and made them into contenders. Sure he's made mistakes but the results - with Friday's glaring exception - have backed it up.

As for not picking his best 11, I've said before only Andy Reid and McCarthy have realistic cases to be included (Ward extremely error prone, the rest in and out of sides etc). Since Andy Reid is considered a bit of a luxury (and has been injured for months) and McCarthy is fairly inexperienced, they're still not gimmies. And I doubt they'd have made any difference on Friday when Russia were rampaging through us.

Though personally I'd much prefer for Trap to have given McCarthy a go by now, at least we're fairly sure he'll get a chance to stake a claim against Norway. And despite what some think, Trap has shown a willingness to introduce those who prove themselves in friendlies.

If Stephen Reid just decided to retire like that why did he not do it years before as he was always plaughed with injury. He was fit and playing for West Brom the second last half of last season, but after the allardyce interview was never looked at again. Andy reid is not a luxury he is talented and better than anyone else in that position. Green and Whelan are quite cleary luxuries if they cannot do the simple jobs in CM right.

Traps interview again shows him to be pig headed and I expect bar injuries like Doyle to have the same 11. Maybe the others players may not have made a difference but at least we'd have blooded them and would now have McCarthy tied to us. If we lose Tuesday everyone will turn on Trap I've no doubt. Ward couldn't be anymore error prone than Kilbane. Ian Hatre is playing better than Kilbane for reading and is an actual fullback not a winger converted.

[paul_oshea]

It has to be said that the doomsayers have been vindicated to a large extent tonight. I was willing to defer to Trap's greater wisdom on Paul Green, but he just looked out of his depth tonight (although he was put in the unfortunate position of having to do Whelan's job as well - I really hope he was carrying an injury and wasn't just as lost as he looked).

I don't think it's entirely down to Trap's tactics - the players simply didn't do jobs they've shown themselves capable of - but it does raise a lot of questions about the effectiveness of the system when are playing against superior sides. It would be one thing if we were playing 11 men behind the ball, Switzerland-style football, but despite generally playing without the ball we do seem to be set up to score goals.

I don't subscribe to the view that it's impossible to play 4-4-2 against 4-5-1, but for a side that already struggles to impose itself in midfield, it does seem like we need an extra body in there, whether it's by shunting Doyle out to the wing or having Keane play deeper permanently. Personally, I wouldn't mind trying Gibson in an advanced role ahead of Andrews/Green and Whelan.

I think our players' lack of game time was really telling, probably moreso than in previous years. Dunne looked lethargic and Whelan was almost non-existant, although after a rock opening few minutes, Robbie looked really sharp (which begs the question why he's been so poor for Spurs). I am conflicted over Whelan: after tonight, I think it might be a good thing that he could miss Tuesday, but I'm fearful of a midfield in which Green is the most experienced player.

I'm not a doomsayer charlie, just a bit more realistic and not going to be blinded for my love for the team, but thanks.

I think it was well put, waht does trap gain by playing someone like green, it comes off a lot worse when someone like mccarthy is playing week in week out, to go with an unknown journeyman playing championship level still, and gets absolutely destroyed, i feel sorry for him to be honest. I assume though green will lose his place on tuesday. Btw im not saying mccarthy should start or that.

[Charlie Darwin]

There is one bit i agree with on that, what do you think it is?

Ive had a look at the stats and a few days to relax and take stock... i said last year that I had a feeling the way we play under trap that we could be found out some day, if not on top of our game. We were found out friday. Others specifically the more regular members mentioned trap had a plan b and a plan c, of which i showed reservation as we never found it before. He had no plan A nevermind any other plan. Whats comes out since from some of the players says as much too, along with the idea of hoofball. The game we played against them required everyone on top of their game, we let them attack very far forward before we looked like putting in any tackle, they cut through is like a knife through butter, had we harried and harassed them, i wonder would they have looked half as good or felt half as comfortable? I dont think so. The "game plan " trap sets out is open to this happening every so often where we are a bit unlucky or not everyone 100% concentraing and sharp. We could go another 10 games unbeaten but I cuold see this happening again. When was the last time we conceded 3 goals at home competitively? was it as far back as that denmark game in 85? i certainly cant remember in my viewing time.
The 3-1 to Spain was at home, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be so quick to say "I told you so" about the system. That's not to see there aren't serious flaws in his methodology, but very few teams could expect to perform well when fully half the team failed to even turn up. There's no system that can account for poor performances. I agree we need to evolve and stop playing without the ball 90% of the time, but it's not as if everybody was doing their job and we just got torn apart by a better team. Our players actively colluded with the opposition and that was the real problem.

[SwanVsDalton]

If Stephen Reid just decided to retire like that why did he not do it years before as he was always plaughed with injury. He was fit and playing for West Brom the second last half of last season, but after the allardyce interview was never looked at again.

I presume you're referring to the Trap interview in which he suggested Reid would struggle to get back to top flight football, in which case I'll break it down for you - Trap said those things last October, when Reid was back on the injury table, had only made two first team appearances in a year and had just suffered yet another setback in his third comeback from potentially career threatening injury. He then went to QPR on loan for a month (Nov-Dec) where me made two appearances, got injured again and went to West Brom on loan in March to May, where he made ten appearances. He then retired in July. There is no suggestion Trap shunned him as his fitness woes meant he was never in serious contention in the first place. Trap had nothing to do with his retirement. I would provide links but all these facts are a mere google away...


Andy reid is not a luxury he is talented and better than anyone else in that position. Green and Whelan are quite cleary luxuries if they cannot do the simple jobs in CM right.

It's arguable whether he can - I'm certain Andy would've been utterly overrun by Russia on Friday if he was playing. Nothing in his game suggests he has the ability to get close to players, break up attacks and play quick ball. Andy's great when we see plenty of the ball, but Ireland never do against top teams. Of course there's an argument to be made about CM but Andy Reid is not the answer - he can't even get a game for Sunderland at the moment anyway. If were looking for options McCarthy, Wilson and, when recovered, Meyler are the future imo.


Traps interview again shows him to be pig headed and I expect bar injuries like Doyle to have the same 11. Maybe the others players may not have made a difference but at least we'd have blooded them and would now have McCarthy tied to us. If we lose Tuesday everyone will turn on Trap I've no doubt. Ward couldn't be anymore error prone than Kilbane. Ian Hatre is playing better than Kilbane for reading and is an actual fullback not a winger converted.

Look it's real easy to pick on Kilbane - after all pretty much everyone and his granny agrees we need a replacement - but it wouldn't have mattered on Friday if Harte or Ward or Staunton or Chris Morris' da played there. He was offered no protection by McGeady and was having to tuck in narrow to counter the three floating forwards, allowing the easy overlap. Same thing happened to O'Shea, repeatedly. For now (ie Tuesday) it's better the left-back devil you know.

The Ian Harte argument makes me laugh as well - half a decade ago he was a laughing stock, now because he can take a set piece and is playing for a middling Reading side he's an option. I have a lot of time for Harte but he is, and always will be, as defensively suspect as Kilbane without nearly as much commitment or familiarity with the rest of the back four.

[SwanVsDalton]

The 3-1 to Spain was at home, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be so quick to say "I told you so" about the system. That's not to see there aren't serious flaws in his methodology, but very few teams could expect to perform well when fully half the team failed to even turn up. There's no system that can account for poor performances. I agree we need to evolve and stop playing without the ball 90% of the time, but it's not as if everybody was doing their job and we just got torn apart by a better team. Our players actively colluded with the opposition and that was the real problem.

Bang on Charlie - it's easy to say at this point it's Trap, the system or whatever (these aspects rightly have to be looked at and Trap has to carry a lot of the blame) but EASILY the biggest disappointment for me was the non-form of some of our most important players. Regardless of lack of game time or knocks, Whelan, Doyle, Dunne, O'Shea and Lawrence were well below par. Maybe we wouldn't have contained Russia either way but these guys were so far from competitive it was unreal.

[paul_oshea]

The 3-1 to Spain was at home, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be so quick to say "I told you so" about the system. That's not to see there aren't serious flaws in his methodology, but very few teams could expect to perform well when fully half the team failed to even turn up. There's no system that can account for poor performances. I agree we need to evolve and stop playing without the ball 90% of the time, but it's not as if everybody was doing their job and we just got torn apart by a better team. Our players actively colluded with the opposition and that was the real problem.


ive the one where aldridge got the goal in a 1 - 1 draw and quinn missed a sitter 1 on 1 with zubarretta i think, im also thinking of the time we conceded 3 against portugal, but the 1993 game against spain, is that the one?

[ifk101]

I assume though green will lose his place on tuesday.

Not necessarily. Green didn't excel against either Armenia or Andorra yet started against Russia.

It's unlikely that Trapattoni will make changes to the starting line-up except for those forced upon him - i.e. Doyle's injury. To make too many changes to his line-up would indicate a lack of convinction in his decisions and conflict with how he has built up the team under the last two or so years.

Trapattoni comes across as a very strong willed person. He's placed his confidence in Green and he'll probably persevere with Green until Green proves us all wrong.

[SwanVsDalton]

Why need anyone on this forum to clarify where the long ball approach comes from when ever-present Glenn Whelan does it himself today:


'It's what the manager sets out and his tactics. Everyone would like to see better football and try and get more passing around the pitch but, if it's not to be and the manager wants something different, then what can you do?'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/doylek_whelang_tardellim.html

Interesting coming from Whelan since he didn't get close enough to the ball to play any kind of pass regardless of tactics.

[rebelmusic]

I gotta say, there seems to be a lot of players coming out and complaining about the long ball attitude. Seems to be a lot of dissent in the camp at the moment.

[SwanVsDalton]

I gotta say, there seems to be a lot of players coming out and complaining about the long ball attitude. Seems to be a lot of dissent in the camp at the moment.

Is it not just Whelan though? Dunne said Trap encouraged them to play more passing football and they needed to be more courageous.

[Qwerty]

Here were the problems with the game from my perspective

#1 The midfield performance was pathetic
#2 As Dunne pointed out they didn't play football, they had no composure they played a route 1 style.
#3 Trapp waited far too long before doing anything about it.

There is no easy fix for #1 - I just don't think we have the players but Green offers nothing that Andrews or McCarthy can't provide, it's not like Green is even an effective tackler. Hopefully that was a blip for Glenn Whelan. He was truely awful. He was the biggest culprit for the first goal, the lack of awareness in moving away from the ball rather than clearing it was remarkable. I think that may have shot his confidence completely.

If you're not going to use the ball when you get it, if all you do is hoof the ball down the field to the front two and then don't support them then something is seriously wrong as the best you can hope for is a draw. We don't have a midfield which can pressure oppostion, McGeady doesn't play that game - he needs support options and he is given Green & Kilbane! Lawrence is too slow to play a pressure game. Whelan is too slow. Green is a nuisance but little else as he doesn't really win tackles he just buzzes about a lot. What I really don't understand is that we play route 1 but don't have a midfield selection to complement that style. It's half-arsed route 1. Maybe something is being lost in translation.

Route 1 can work, both Germany & Holland made it work at the WC. The difference is their long balls are deliberate, aimed and purposeful, we just hoof & hope like it's 1988.

#3 is unsettling, he doesn't like to use substitiutes but at 2-0 down doing nothing isn't an option.

[Stuttgart88]

Nothing wrong with hoofing it every now and again, but you've got to be able to play it properly at least some of the time.

A further problem to add to qwerty's 3 above is that we simply stood off them all game, foolishly thinking lining up in 2 banks of 4 was enough. There was absolutely no pressure on the ball when they had it.

I've only heard Whelan complain, and it's a bit rich given that he didn't even have the composure to hoof it on Friday. He seemed to have absolutely zero time on the ball. Good midfielders make time. Despite Gibson's faults, one of his biggest strengths is receiving the ball well under pressure and protecting it. That ability was sadly lacking in pretty much everyone on Friday. Dunne was right - they need to be braver. Braver showing for the ball and braver when in possession.

[shakermaker1982]

Dissent in the camp? If so I hope they have a nice sit down meeting and get all this crap out in the open before the crunch game on Tuesday. The camp seemed to be bristling with optimism before Friday. One massacre in Dublin and it's mutiny?!

If we persist with this long ball hoofball then we need to drop Keane and get some strikers who can leap, head and are about 6 ft 5. Anybody know any Irish Jan Koller's?

[Kingdom]

I don't understand how you can sync up the criticism of Killer with praise for McGeady.

Yeah, Aiden was good in possession, but he left Killer to fend for himself against two top-quality wide men. The second goal came about because McGeady didn't even make an effort to track Anyukov. Killer was left with a choice between following the winger inside or closing down the full back and to his fault he was caught in two minds and ended up picking up neither man. But the situation should never have developed - McGeady should have tracked his man and allowed Killer to follow his man inside the box.

Compare it to the way the Russians defended that flank. On numerous occasions when Kilbane got forward they simply crowded the two men out and forced mistakes. It's what we should have been doing (and it's what Lawrence and O'Shea did a lot more often on the right). I agree McGeady had some good moments going forward, but so did every Russian player and they still put in their defensive shifts too.

I'm not going to try and argue against Charlie you make a fair point. I suppose Killer has been making mistakes for a while now, and not just with Aiden ahead of him. I did mention that I felt the Irish wide players drifted infield. If one did it, you could say mindlessness, but when two do it, you have to feel that it's a ploy to try and narrow the options for the opposition middle 3. On the second goal, Aiden certainly could be accused of ball watching, and missed the track of Anyukov, but, Killer's movement was criminal. He followed Dzagoev into the Russian inside right position, into traffic, and left a massive gap behind him. He was caught in two minds certainly, but he should have been calling the left spare centre half (St Ledger in this instance) to cover the space inside him which would have covered the man also. He didn't, followed the man, and by the time he decided to go, Anyukov had acres of space and it was ironic that Dzagoev was the guy who dummied for Kerzhakov to score.
Should McGeady have been covering the space? Certainly. But the responsibility for that flank lies with the full back, and it's not as if the team were suddenly shifted off foot.

That said, Aiden and Killer seemed off with each other all night. I mean at one stage that were seriously fúcking each other out of it in the Russian half. I felt that McGeady was very good going forward, and to be fair to him, he did work hard all night. I've watched the video and 3 times in the last 10 mins McGeady chased lost balls/men challenged and created either a cross or won free kicks from threatening areas. However most people will probably only recall the effort where he chased Zhirkov, but stopped when Zhirkov laid off the ball but regained possession with half the pitch in front of him - a chance that Pogrenyback missed amazingly.

Suppose I feel the fella doesn't get a fair crack of the whip from our supporters when he does relatively well. I mean how many people analyse Duffer on his tracking back? Few I'd imagine.

[Noelys Guitar]

Aldridge and Cascarino publicly complained about jack's tactics after a qualifyer away to Hungary which finsihed 0-0 around 89. Nothing changed but we did go on to qualify for 90. I wouldn't read too much into Whelan's and Dunnes comments even though both players made sense.

[ShamrockIreland]

I presume you're referring to the Trap interview in which he suggested Reid would struggle to get back to top flight football, in which case I'll break it down for you - Trap said those things last October, when Reid was back on the injury table, had only made two first team appearances in a year and had just suffered yet another setback in his third comeback from potentially career threatening injury. He then went to QPR on loan for a month (Nov-Dec) where me made two appearances, got injured again and went to West Brom on loan in March to May, where he made ten appearances. He then retired in July. There is no suggestion Trap shunned him as his fitness woes meant he was never in serious contention in the first place. Trap had nothing to do with his retirement. I would provide links but all these facts are a mere google away...



It's arguable whether he can - I'm certain Andy would've been utterly overrun by Russia on Friday if he was playing. Nothing in his game suggests he has the ability to get close to players, break up attacks and play quick ball. Andy's great when we see plenty of the ball, but Ireland never do against top teams. Of course there's an argument to be made about CM but Andy Reid is not the answer - he can't even get a game for Sunderland at the moment anyway. If were looking for options McCarthy, Wilson and, when recovered, Meyler are the future imo.



Look it's real easy to pick on Kilbane - after all pretty much everyone and his granny agrees we need a replacement - but it wouldn't have mattered on Friday if Harte or Ward or Staunton or Chris Morris' da played there. He was offered no protection by McGeady and was having to tuck in narrow to counter the three floating forwards, allowing the easy overlap. Same thing happened to O'Shea, repeatedly. For now (ie Tuesday) it's better the left-back devil you know.

The Ian Harte argument makes me laugh as well - half a decade ago he was a laughing stock, now because he can take a set piece and is playing for a middling Reading side he's an option. I have a lot of time for Harte but he is, and always will be, as defensively suspect as Kilbane without nearly as much commitment or familiarity with the rest of the back four.

I'm making the point Harte is still playing as an actual fullback with the best team in the 2nd division whilst Killer plays very rarely. Harte is flawed but he like Irwin and Stan were great at set pieces. O'Shea is not a fullback either his best spot is beside Dunne we all know that. Reid is proven at international level not a world beater but still a class above. I wouldn't play him in the CM. Anyway he won't play for us again so it's pointless really. Yeah Wilson and McCarthy would be good in our team but that won't happen for a while.

[Closed Account 2]

It's a massive shame that Martin Rowlands is only just coming back from injury as I think he would be a better option than Green in midfield. Whelan's only started 3 of Stokes 7 games this season (in PL) so I think fitness may be an issue. Green I think just can't cut it against the very best sides (Russia when on form fall into that catagory) especially when outnumbered in midfield. Again the likes of Andrews or Stephen Reid (who's now gone) might be a better option had they not been otherwise injured/retired. McCarthy could have been in contention but I could understand not starting him as, for all his creativity, he might not have been the best at breaking up a numerically and technically superior Russian midfield, he could have been a great option to have on the bench for half time though. If Gibson was getting more games at United I have more confidence in him, but he could end up lacking sharpness (similar to Whelan is at the moment).

I'm still pretty shocked at the lack of invention or ability to change things amongst the players / manager on friday night. Doyle and Keane were getting little change of the Russian center backs, McGeady was able to beat his man (at times his 2 men) but there was noone to cross the ball to - for 70 mins Keane and Doyle won very little in the box and were not even in the box that frequently. I wonder why the likes of Whelan and Lawrence didn't try and shoot from distance more often. Anyone who's seen Russia games could have told you Akinfeev has a massive reluctance to catch the ball and his punching / plaming is very haphazard, why did no one think to shoot from distance more? (Whelan and Lawrence have both scored goals from distance)

I don't know if it was the manager not spotting it, him not communicating with the players, or the players themselves not picking up on it, but the game was going away from us and out players just carried on in rabbits-in-headlights mode. We only got back into the game due to the penalty. It's a shame we dont have an experienced organiser in the center of the park, not necessarily blessed with masses of skill, who could cajole the others into adapting as the game went on (eg Townsend in his prime).

A draw in Zilina and we still have our heads above water, a win there and we're back in business. I still think the Russians may drop points to Macedonia or in Yerevan.

[Charlie Darwin]

Bang on Charlie - it's easy to say at this point it's Trap, the system or whatever (these aspects rightly have to be looked at and Trap has to carry a lot of the blame) but EASILY the biggest disappointment for me was the non-form of some of our most important players. Regardless of lack of game time or knocks, Whelan, Doyle, Dunne, O'Shea and Lawrence were well below par. Maybe we wouldn't have contained Russia either way but these guys were so far from competitive it was unreal.
I actually thought O'Shea did well - kept a lock on Arshavin for a lot of the night and was the least effective of their front three as a result. Lawrence was targeted but he did struggle. I didn't think Doyle did too badly - he didn't get as much protection from the referee as he's used to, although his touch wasn't as good as we've come to expect.


ive the one where aldridge got the goal in a 1 - 1 draw and quinn missed a sitter 1 on 1 with zubarretta i think, im also thinking of the time we conceded 3 against portugal, but the 1993 game against spain, is that the one?
Yeah, the 1994 qualifiers. Fairly sure it was home but alas I'm too lazy to google.


Is it not just Whelan though? Dunne said Trap encouraged them to play more passing football and they needed to be more courageous.
I think what Dunne said was more that Trap doesn't discourage a passing game rather than he encourages it.



Should McGeady have been covering the space? Certainly. But the responsibility for that flank lies with the full back, and it's not as if the team were suddenly shifted off foot.
Agree Killer dealt with it badly but Anyukov was definitely McGeady's responsibility - his decision not to track back meant Kilbane had to make a split-second decision who to follow, and in the end he got caught in two minds. Any time Kilbane got forward he was shadowed every step of the way by Dzagoev, who had an excellent game.


Suppose I feel the fella doesn't get a fair crack of the whip from our supporters when he does relatively well. I mean how many people analyse Duffer on his tracking back? Few I'd imagine.I can't think of any goals off-hand that we've conceded down Duff's flank, whether he's been playing on the left or right. He's an outstanding player offensively and defensively. If he still had his pace he'd be world class.


I'm making the point Harte is still playing as an actual fullback with the best team in the 2nd division whilst Killer plays very rarely.
Harte plays centre half for Reading, if I'm not mistaken.

[TrapAPony]

It's a massive shame that Martin Rowlands is only just coming back from injury as I think he would be a better option than Green in midfield.

Neither of them are good enough to be in the Irish squad. Andrews, Whelan, Gibson, McCarthy, Fahey, Meyler, Wilson, Maguire, Andy Reid and Steven Reid (retired I know) are/will be all far better options.

[ShamrockIreland]

I actually thought O'Shea did well - kept a lock on Arshavin for a lot of the night and was the least effective of their front three as a result. Lawrence was targeted but he did struggle. I didn't think Doyle did too badly - he didn't get as much protection from the referee as he's used to, although his touch wasn't as good as we've come to expect.


Yeah, the 1994 qualifiers. Fairly sure it was home but alas I'm too lazy to google.


I think what Dunne said was more that Trap doesn't discourage a passing game rather than he encourages it.


Agree Killer dealt with it badly but Anyukov was definitely McGeady's responsibility - his decision not to track back meant Kilbane had to make a split-second decision who to follow, and in the end he got caught in two minds. Any time Kilbane got forward he was shadowed every step of the way by Dzagoev, who had an excellent game.

I can't think of any goals off-hand that we've conceded down Duff's flank, whether he's been playing on the left or right. He's an outstanding player offensively and defensively. If he still had his pace he'd be world class.


Harte plays centre half for Reading, if I'm not mistaken.

I was at the Spainsh game where we went 3 down within 25 minutes. Spain were flying. we stemmed the attacks and got into the game. Whelan who had only come back from some serious injuries and was off the pace and was getting old. Sheridan got the goal that nobody even cared about until it all came down to the maths in the final game. The difference then was we still had some decent players to come in for the likes of Whelan. Harte may well play CB now I think he was playing there for Carlisle last year. He won't play for us again anyway ;)

[tetsujin1979]

Also meant to finish on that, that the fact that trap doesn't have attack minded midfielders in the squad is proof that he doesn't have an alternative plan if we concede a couple or go down in a case where we drastically need to change things.
how exactly would you define Darron Gibson or Keith Fahey?