View Full Version : Riots in Dublin
1. The scumbag Noel O'Flynn couldn't wait to get himself on the lunchtime national news on Radio 1 the day last Tuesday week to proclaim to all and sundry that he "had read the Constitution that very morning" and the judge should resign. So how can you blame Rabbite for this? Surely now that N O'F is a constitutional expert, he will sort it all out?
2. Ahern was himself peripherally involved in the Sheedy affair, where problems with the removal of Judges were first brought up. If I remember correctly, it was an FF election promise to sort that area out....and we all know that FF keep their promises.
3. Removing a Judge is not a simple issue, unless there is a very clear cut case. There is nothing clear cut about this case.
Patsh Patsh Patsh, ok lets agree that you dont like FF and I do alright.
Noel O'Flynn should be thrown out of the party along with Cullen.
I never said removing a individual judge is simple, its only the process itself that is very very simple.
Patsh you seem a keen follower of FF policy, do you remember why FF didnt enact a bill to deal with this area?
There is little doubt that everyone on the list is guilty. Proving the guilt is another matter though.
But if they're not proven guilty, they're found innocent surely?
Conor, I do think there are questions to answer (not least the points about the handling of the case), however he has been proven innocent in the courts (technicality or not). Fitness to judge other people isn't the same as deciding whether he's guilty of a criminal offence. We'll all have to wait and see the evidence to decide that (and then it won't be us it'll be the elected representative)...
It's an internal decision whether Flynn gets chucked by FF, and then it's her electorate who decide whether she remains in the Dail (unless she's Bankrupt). She's not getting sacked from her job (and probably won't given the reaction in Mayo :rolleyes: )
But if they're not proven guilty, they're found innocent surely?
Disagree.
Court options are either Guilty or Not Guilty.
Court options are either Guilty or Not Guilty.
So if you're not guilty, you're not innocent either? Sure there's no smoke without fire, whatever the case...
Firstly Curtin was acquitted of child pornography charges... His name was on a list provided by the FBI of credit cards held in Ireland which were used to purchase child porn from a company in the US which was raided. There is little doubt that everyone on the list is guilty. Proving the guilt is another matter though.Whoa!!! Surely having credit card details does not entail someone is guilty. These can be thieved anytime and it is only at the end of the month - providing that you bother to look, which being well off may not be something that concerns you - that you'd take notice. However if child porn from that site was to somehow end up on same person's computer...
Peadar
05/05/2004, 4:44 PM
These can be thieved anytime and it is only at the end of the month
How likely is it that someone stole his credit card and then proceded to download illegal images to his PC? Besides, the list was examined for some time by the FBI before it was delivered to the Gardai. This all took place over a two year period. In England it's going to take them a few years to get to everyone on the list. They look at the worst offenders first.
I'm sure the Gardai are doing the same.
How likely is it that someone stole his credit card and then proceded to download illegal images to his PC? Besides, the list was examined for some time by the FBI before it was delivered to the Gardai. This all took place over a two year period. In England it's going to take them a few years to get to everyone on the list. They look at the worst offenders first.
I'm sure the Gardai are doing the same.You've answered my question. There's currently a 'rumour' that a high profile England international is under the same suspicion (Daily Star on Sunday a few months back). He also claimed that his credit card was also stolen. Watch this space.
How likely is it that someone stole his credit card and then proceded to download illegal images to his PC? Besides, the list was examined for some time by the FBI before it was delivered to the Gardai.
Also as I mentioned earlier apparent Curtin has admitted using other "services" from the company that was raided by the FBI. They were reported as having hundreds of sites & up to 250k credit card numbers but that they separated the biulling between adult porn & paedolphic (if thats a word) pics (how very organised :o )...
What will happen if Curtin decides not to tell his side of the story to the Gov?
Would this constitute "stated misbehaviour" I wonder?
It would surely bring into disrepute, and seriously damage the justice system in this country, if he was allowed to hear cases ever again.
To Conor and SOC,
It's being quite an interesting thread so far, but can I ask you both, does it ever bother either of you that in reality you both act like "Good Germans" ?
dahamsta
05/05/2004, 8:42 PM
Every time I see this thread I think of Richard Morton (http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=richard+morton+comedian) on the phone to his Geordie mate, asking about the riots. His mate replied:
"Riots? Oh, you mean the festival." :D
adam
To Conor and SOC,
It's being quite an interesting thread so far, but can I ask you both, does it ever bother either of you that in reality you both act like "Good Germans" ?
I dont know now Patsh could you call us "Good Germans" but are we really.
I mean I know I differ quite a bit from the party line and a good deal from Mr. 74 on a number of issues, but isnt that what makes FF the best party in Ireland, left of centre but we have all types. I mean 18 of the last 20 years speaks for itself.
Hey, I never made Nazi references.... I don't remember mentioning the PD's that much.... :D
dahamsta
06/05/2004, 10:56 AM
Heh. Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html). See the codicil. :D
WeAreRovers
06/05/2004, 11:38 AM
, but isnt that what makes FF the best party in Ireland, left of centre but we have all types. I mean 18 of the last 20 years speaks for itself.
Left of centre?????? As the popular terrace tune goes - Yer havin a laugh. :)
KOH
the 12 th man
06/05/2004, 11:39 AM
Heh. Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html). See the codicil. :D
if fails to factor in the "humour" that dahamsta might be in ;)
1. Never heard of this Godwins law before.
2. There was absolutley no intention of a nazi reference in the post. I was referring to the idea of turning a blind eye to wrong doing.
3. I suppose bringing this up is a good way of avoiding answering a question... ;)
Peadar
10/05/2004, 8:01 AM
Whoa!!! Surely having credit card details does not entail someone is guilty.
Story taken from the Sunday Business Post. (http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-825919350-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper.asp)
The American detective who discovered Judge Brian Curtin's credit card number on a child porn website has revealed that he found substantial supporting evidence, including Curtin's home address, e-mail address and details of his computer's internet service provider.
Texas police officer Steve Nelson said he is prepared to testify at any inquiry or impeachment hearing into the conduct of Curtin.
"I will do whatever is required,'' Nelson said.
He also disclosed that Curtin's credit card was not used to access adult porn, contrary to suggestions in earlier reports, which were based on sources close to the judge.
In an interview with The Sunday Business Post, Nelson said that Curtin's personal details, in addition to his credit card details, were found on a database maintained by the Texas web portal, Landslide Productions, which directed customers to child pornography websites.
Nelson said the discovery of this additional information demonstrated that a thief or an imposter could not have accessed the website solely with the aid of a stolen credit card.
He added that Curtin's details were supplied to Landslide for one month's access to a specific child porn site called Lolita World, which specialised in graphic pictures of pre-pubescent children.
Nelson said it was the first website that users were directed to when they clicked on a Landslide hyperlink titled ``Click Here for Child Porn''.
Nelson, the sole officer tasked with accessing the sites, dismissed claims that Curtin's card was only used to access an adult porn website linked to the Landslide Productions portal."
Well the government, with one bound, have been freed of their dilemma.
A guilty verdict on the drink driving charge is more than sufficient grounds to fire him.
Well the government, with one bound, have been freed of their dilemma. A guilty verdict on the drink driving charge is more than sufficient grounds to fire him.
They must have been flowwing him around for the last week trying to get him on something.
Very convenient nonetheless.
:rolleyes:
the 12 th man
10/05/2004, 10:47 AM
.
A guilty verdict on the drink driving charge is more than sufficient grounds to fire him.
complete fcukwit or what??.imagine being under the media/garda spotlight
and then drink driving. :mad: tosser
complete fcukwit or what??.imagine being under the media/garda spotlight
and then drink driving. :mad: tosser
May I remind you he's still not convicted of anything. The urine sample could come in under the limit yet...
If convicted it could ruin his chances of a big payoff alright, but there's a long way to go in that one yet...
Precedent suggests otherwise, previous cases of drink drive judges have got a payoff to go quietly....
Jim Smith
10/05/2004, 11:19 AM
Am I the only person a bit uneasy with the "we'll follow you until you slip up" style of policing here?
Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for Curtin but surely the judicial system should remove him from office and be seen to be policing themselves.
We should be asking just how the Gardai made such a mistake with the search warrent in the first place - this is no way to clean up their mess.
Peadar
10/05/2004, 11:21 AM
previous cases of drink drive judges have got a payoff to go quietly....
They weren't cases entangled in child pornography scandals though.
We should be asking just how the Gardai made such a mistake with the search warrent in the first place .
That question has already been answered. They took advice from solicitors in the office of the DPP.
With regard to the drink driving, it's possible that Curtain was shopped by someone who saw him drinking.
the 12 th man
10/05/2004, 11:27 AM
Would have thought it was just a standard catch by the road traffic police. Is there some suggestion he was being targeted?
apparently he "allegedly" overtook a pushbike in an erratic manner and was
pulled over.
Would have thought it was just a standard catch by the road traffic police. Is there some suggestion he was being targeted?
Has happened before that rouge Garda units target individuals when can't get them on large offences e.g. Donegal + some dodgy dealings in Traleee i think regarding a SF'er?
They weren't cases entangled in child pornography scandals though.
Seperate issues though - they either do him for one or the other. Given recent events and allegations, if he was over the limit then he deserves everything he gets for being that arrogant/stupid...
Jim Smith
10/05/2004, 2:59 PM
That question has already been answered. They took advice from solicitors in the office of the DPP.
And here was me thinking it would be easier, quicker and cheaper to co-ordinate the raids the day before the warrents expired....but then I'm no solicitor :D
Peadar
10/05/2004, 3:13 PM
And here was me thinking it would be easier, quicker and cheaper to co-ordinate the raids the day before the warrents expired...
Mr Curtin wasn't at home on any of the dates his house was visited by the Gardai during the validity of the warrant. Apparently he hadn't come home. The warrant expires and all of a sudden Mr Curtin is available to have the warrant served. Of course it's unreasonable to think that he could have known anything about the warrant. The fact that the warrant was issued by a member of the judiciary to which Mr Curtin belongs is merely coincidence and I forbid anyone to think otherwise!
the 12 th man
10/05/2004, 3:25 PM
joking aside though,this guy is in deep do do.there is a named fbi agent who is willling to come to ireland to testify to what the computer records show.
( as regards who was a customer etc.)
correct in that nothing is proved yet,but he is a gonner
Peadar
10/05/2004, 3:35 PM
.there is a named fbi agent who is willling to come to ireland to testify
See my post (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=122323&postcount=84) above.
the 12 th man
10/05/2004, 3:52 PM
See my post (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=122323&postcount=84) above.
must have gone by your post there peadar,
it says it all really
If everything in that article is true, surely someone must resign/lose their job over such a f*ckup on such a serious crime?
But then again isn't it the FF/PD way to never resign or be fired, no matter how bad the mess?
patsh
13/05/2004, 10:24 AM
Disturbing reflections on gardai
Mary Raftery
It was when they said they had cleared space in the city morgue that one really began to wonder about the sanity surrounding the authorities' response to the May Day events.
It is one thing to be prepared, but quite another to become so consumed with paranoia as to lose all touch with reality. During the May Day weekend, Ireland moved firmly through the looking glass.
On one level, it was absurd - the Army's chemical, biological and nuclear unit (whatever that is) on alert, the Navy patrolling Dublin Bay, the Air Force keeping our skies safe, gardaí questioning people about buying onions (aka dangerous projectiles) in Moore Street.
There are however aspects of the events leading up to the EU summit at Farmleigh which have more disturbing ramifications.
Bertie Ahern's identification before the event of protesters as "mindless hooligans" set the scene. Dublin appeared to perceive itself as the latest stage in a linear progression from Seattle to Genoa in terms of anti-globalisation protest.
Concrete evidence for this was scant. Anticipation of an invasion of thousands of diehard anarchists intent on causing mayhem on Dublin streets appeared to be based on little more than an inaccurate reading of the undoubtedly violent protests of Seattle, Gothenburg and Genoa.
The truth of what actually happened on the streets of those cities took time to emerge, and never received the same coverage as the riots themselves. In Seattle, hundreds of thousands protested in 1999 at the World Trade Organisation summit. A city council investigation subsequently identified serious police inadequacy and brutality as being a major cause of the violence. The mayor and the police chief were singled out for blame, with the latter forced to take early retirement.
The Seattle City Council concluded that "gratuitous assaults" by police had "compromised the civil rights of citizens and often provoked further disturbance".
In Genoa, it was the G8 summit in 2001 which drew the protesters. The Italian media was full of alarmist accounts anticipating mayhem. The police listed the tactics to be used against them by demonstrators in the most lurid terms. Anarchists were supposed to be preparing bags of HIV-infected blood to hurl at them and at anyone else who got in their way.
With hundreds injured as a result of police brutality, the Italian police finally admitted that they had used excessive force and acted illegally. While there had certainly been a hard-line group of protesters intent on causing damage, the police had inexplicably ignored them and concentrated their aggression on the main body of peaceful protesters.
Hundreds were arrested, many not allowed bail or even a phone call. There is overwhelming evidence that many were beaten and degraded while in custody. Most were subsequently either released without charge, or faced only minor charges. A plethora of inquiries ensued; scores of police were investigated with the three most senior policemen in Genoa disciplined and transferred.
The protester who died was Carlo Giuliani (23), shot by a panicked 20-year-old officer, who like his colleagues was armed.
The Swedish police in Gothenburg, the scene of anti-globalisation protests in 2001, were also armed. They shot and seriously injured several unarmed demonstrators. Yet again, independent investigations blamed police overreaction and brutality for increasing the level of violence.
The lessons are clear. Heavy-handed armed response to protesters invariably leads to escalating violence. Yet when Dublin's turn came, the gardaí announced through their representative organisation they wanted guns to deal with the anticipated May Day protest.
This not only represents a dire failure to learn anything from the past, but also a denial of the experience of hundreds of gardaí who have been in and led UN civilian police operations in trouble spots around the world.
I had the good fortune to observe them in action in Namibia at the time of that country's difficult path to independence. Although one of the few unarmed police contingents in the international force, the Irish made and won the case for the UN police not to carry guns.
Through dialogue and compromise rather than physical force, the gardaí set a superb example of professional policing in Namibia, and later in Cambodia. They single-handedly convinced both the international community and fellow officers from around the world of the effectiveness and the virtues of an unarmed police force.
Given this remarkable international influence, it is appalling to hear gardaí now turn their backs on our highly successful tradition of an unarmed police force, and demand guns to fight what were really only the phantoms of their own paranoia.
No doubt these same gardaí would welcome the truly frightening proposal from the German and Italian governments to create a specialised, heavily-armed EU riot squad to be parachuted into any city with a summit and/or protest. If there was ever an area in which we should not follow the European model, this should certainly be it.
© The Irish Times
Troy.McClure
13/05/2004, 10:44 AM
I think that Ive read her stuff before, and I cant say that I agree with her, she seems a bit pro-crusty for my right-sided views :p
I think that she underestimates the trouble that is involved with the G8 protesters, I cant remember the last time a protest didnt turn violent, with the wilfullness of the protestors who often come prepaired for trouble. Her views on the Gardai wanting guns was a bit OTT IMO. I dont remember hearing anything about them wanting guns? Also, they DIDNT have guns, so I think that she kind of defeated her own point about not using guns/the gardai were over handed. Her quote for Bertie seems to be exactly what happened, so why is she trying to say that he was paranoid, and if the hooligans can go to Seatlle, Genoa or Gothenbourg, then why not Dublin? ALso, with so many heads of state in one place, it was ripe for a terrorist attack, Im sure that Al quida would atleast have thought about attacking them. I think that the Gardai did an excellent job, with violence kept to a minimum and AFIK no police brutality claims.
Shouldnt she be commending the Gardai for a job well done, and maybe for setting a blueprint on how to handle thses things in the future?
patsh
13/05/2004, 12:37 PM
Isn't it amazing how people can twist what they like from articles....
Ignore the FACTs when it suits you.
The police in Seattle, Genoa, and Gothenburg caused as much, if not more, violence than any protestor.
A tiny group caused a mild disturbance in Dublin. The same weekend, TWICE as many people were arrested for disturbances in Killarney at the rally.
You are spending far too much time listening and believeing the hectoring paranoia of McDowell.
liamon
13/05/2004, 12:42 PM
Yeah Patsh, you're right. With all those heads of government in town, we had no need of security. And when GW Bush arrives here in a few weeks, give the cops a week off. It'll be fine.
In the current political climate, we need to ensure security is as high as possible. The fact that nothing happened in Dublin is a credit to the gardai, not a reason to give out. The gardai contained a situation and didn't allow it to escalate, like it did in other cities.
It is NOT her opinion about the investigations into the disturbances in the 3 cities mentioned.
Investigations found as FACTUAL that the police in these cities were the cause of the majority of the violence.
I'm not saying that security was not needed on the day here.
What was not needed was the hyping up of the "threat", the ott policing of a minor protest, and the use, however mild, of water cannon and riot police.
The only opinons around on Mayday were the completely unfounded, wildly off the mark opinions of senior Gardai and the current government.
I am not excusing the idiots who were messing on the streets, but I do not think we must all accept unquestioningly the paranoia of some members of the police and government in this country.
You seem quite happy to accept every bit of baseless, mindless sh*t your party and their partners come out with.
Some of us can think for ourselves.
A tiny group caused a mild disturbance in Dublin. The same weekend, TWICE as many people were arrested for disturbances in Killarney at the rally.
There was 1 person more arrested in Killarney over the course of the rally than was arrested in the one spot in Dublin :rolleyes:
WeAreRovers
13/05/2004, 2:10 PM
.
What was not needed was the hyping up of the "threat", the ott policing of a minor protest, and the use, however mild, of water cannon and riot police.
The only opinons around on Mayday were the completely unfounded, wildly off the mark opinions of senior Gardai and the current government.
I am not excusing the idiots who were messing on the streets, but I do not think we must all accept unquestioningly the paranoia of some members of the police and government in this country.
Spot on patsh. The paranoia you speak of has sinister undertones about the future of policing and civil liberties in this country.
The Irish Times article was spot on and it's very very rare that I say that. Like patsh I've very little time for the chancers who were protesting on May 1 (ever tried asking one of them what Globalisation is? They don't even know!) but I would defend their right to protest without the heavy-handed policing that seems to be taken for granted these days.
Has everyone forgotten the disgraceful policing of May 1 2002? Bertie, the Mad Mullah McDowell and the GRA have successfully hidden those scenes amid the hysteria over Seattle/Genoa etc. That's the point that the IT article was making.
KOH
Ummm, your post consisted of a cut and paste job on an Irish Times article...
Gee, you seem to becoming influenced by the waffle lessons from the local cumainn.
Just how long does it take to teach your common or garden FFer on how to give anything but a sensible reply?
So Eric, you have more people being arrested at a social and sporting event, than you had at an event that Gardai told us needed the army, hospitals and the morgue on standby. So now that the senior Gardai have the figures, can we expect water cannon and riot police at the next rally event?
Let's retrace our steps here.
You cut and pasted an article.
I disagreed with it....
You said it was an opinion. I pointed out that the article did contain facts about the police in Seattle, Genoa and Gothenburg.
You said I had no opinion of my own, and I merely pointed out that I wasn't the one who cut and pasted an article, printing someone's else's opinion word for word, comma for comma.
Apparently now it's me that's waffling and not giving a sensible reply (presumably it was the temerity of my disagreeing with something printed in the Irish Times)!! That's a remarkable jump in logic....
You do not ever demur from the party line. I've asked you questions on this and other threads which you NEVER answer. Your stock reponse normally runs along the lines of "Micheal Lowry....Emmett Stagg......"
When you get asked any sort of question where you might have to address the truth about the lies, corruption and criminality in the party of your choice you parrott out the party stance or simpy avoid answering.
I know you are an intelligent man, and enjoy the banter with you, but lately your avoidance of these questions has increasingly dissappointed me.
But at least the last post was your own work...
I put the article up there to stir a little debate. My thoughts are always my own. I'm not so sure whether your thoughts are your own lately. Is it because its election time?
So Eric, you have more people being arrested at a social and sporting event, than you had at an event that Gardai told us needed the army, hospitals and the morgue on standby. So now that the senior Gardai have the figures, can we expect water cannon and riot police at the next rally event?
1 person more arrested in Killarney over Friday, Saturday and Sunday than there was at the protests in the space of 40 minutes and you are trying to compare both scenes!!!!! :rolleyes:
But it is totally different to G7 rioting, it is completely disorganised, mostly drink related and totally apolitical.
Are you seriously trying to equate the messing in Dublin with a "G7 riot" ?
Eric, the point I'm making is that the pre-Mayday carry on from senior Gardai and government would have led one to believe that we were under imminent attack from every violent anarchist in the world. There was absolutely no basis whatsoever for these statements and the competely over the top security arrangements for possible protest. I'm not complaining about the security around the 25 heads of government, but closing the Pheonix Park, hyping up the "Threat", the ridiculous sight of water cannon and riot police confronting and outnumbering a good humored crowd, is far too much of the boy who cried wolf.
Are you seriously trying to equate the messing in Dublin with a "G7 riot" ?
Eric, the point I'm making is that the pre-Mayday carry on from senior Gardai and government would have led one to believe that we were under imminent attack from every violent anarchist in the world. There was absolutely no basis whatsoever for these statements and the competely over the top security arrangements for possible protest. I'm not complaining about the security around the 25 heads of government, but closing the Pheonix Park, hyping up the "Threat", the ridiculous sight of water cannon and riot police confronting and outnumbering a good humored crowd, is far too much of the boy who cried wolf.
Unless you are a member of An Garda Siochana or of one of the other police forces around Europe then there is no way you can say that there was no basis for the security arrangements that were put in place for the weekend.
The Gardai worked closely with all the other European police forces and after a lot of intelligence gathering had good grounds to believe that the situation was gonna be a lot worse as regards violence. The Gardai, for there part, did exactly what they are employed to do.
Unless you are a member of An Garda Siochana or of one of the other police forces around Europe then there is no way you can say that there was no basis for the security arrangements that were put in place for the weekend.
The Gardai worked closely with all the other European police forces and after a lot of intelligence gathering had good grounds to believe that the situation was gonna be a lot worse as regards violence. The Gardai, for there part, did exactly what they are employed to do.
The Gardai can say whatever they want to, and who can dispute it?
This "intelligence" has proved to be utterly worthless and its not the first time.
And your last sentance has completely proved my point.
"The Gardai, for there part, did exactly what they are employed to do"
Which is to carry out the bidding of an intolerant coterie of arrogant incompetents, some of whom are criminals, who will not brook any other opinion but their own.
Welcome to the Police state.
Peadar
17/05/2004, 8:22 AM
Welcome to the Police state.
Some of the most important political figures in the world were only a few Km from where that "riot" took place and you think the Gardaí were wrong to take control of the situation? If there had been a terrorist incident it would have been an International incident. The threat was very real and the Gardaí would have been utterly unprofessional not to take the precautionary approach they did.
Which is to carry out the bidding of an intolerant coterie of arrogant incompetents, some of whom are criminals, who will not brook any other opinion but their own.
Welcome to the Police state.
So why do you slate the Gardai when they are just doing what they are told by the Government????
Aim your criticism at the government and not the Gardai
So why do you slate the Gardai when they are just doing what they are told by the Government????
Aim your criticism at the government and not the Gardai
I have consistently said Senior Gardai, Eric.
Some of the most important political figures in the world were only a few Km from where that "riot" took place and you think the Gardaí were wrong to take control of the situation
If youbothered to read my posts, I did not complain about the security for the Heads of State. This "situation" was a small number of people standing on a street, excercising their right to protest. Senior Gardai decided that they were not to be allowed to do this and used water cannon and riot police to get rid of them. No matter what you think, this is a completely undemocratic, heavy handed and intolerant approach.
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