View Full Version : War Crimes - US Soldiers - Inhuman Acts
A face
30/04/2004, 7:12 PM
Lads,
What do you think ? Washington Post ran with pictures of the US troops killed in the last six weeks while the rest of the world saw what the US troops are really at. These so called "liberators" were caught with Iraqi pants down and it is interesting ot see which news groups condem these acts and which ones are deflecting them.
Do they now deserve everything they get ??
liam88
30/04/2004, 8:26 PM
O.k I certainly wouldn't say that they deserve everything they get because this is not every coalition soldier. I know someone who's brother is currently fighting with the British army out there and you cannot say that because some members of an army commit atrocities then everyone deserves to be killed. You cannot excuse the killing of every British soldier because of what went on in Northern Ireland. Pitch cappings and the like were nothing short of inhumane but this doesn't excuse every British soldier who is killed (anywhere in the world). Mabye my opinion would be different if I had close relatives in the North.
This aside the American soldiers who commited these atrocities were SICK and should be punished to the full extent. They may have seen friends and comrades killed but this does not give them any right or any excuse to torture the POW's.
Again, parreles can be drawn wioth Northern Ireland on all fronts.
We were reading the article today with some people on the train and at the bit about this being a violation of the Geneva convention I pointed out that the Iraqis had already broken it. "Oh so that makes it alright then?" asked somebody. No! The point I was trying to make was in this war the Geneva convention has gone out the window. I wasn't excusing it, simply pointed out that NIETHER side has kept to the genva convention which certainly is not good.
It gives a terrible impression of a coalition which has already recieved such bad publicity but now the soldiers are being targeted and not the leaders. I can almost gairantee that this is no reflection on the vast majority of soldiers out there but might be played that way by the press.
On a footnote the "We didn't have copies of the Genva convention" argument is worthless and will never stand. You don't need it written down to know it's wrong to wire prisoners genitals up to electrodes.
Plastic Paddy
30/04/2004, 8:45 PM
Well said Liam. One of the most unfortunate things about war is the dehumanisation of the opposition, or indeed anyone with an alternate view. It's so easy to forget that every soldier is someone's son or daughter, with a partner, kids of their own, etc. Once this goes, it becomes easy to rationalise inhumane acts, because individual people are no longer a part of the killing equation. Someone on these boards recently quoted Uncle Joe Stalin, and I paraphrase - to kill once is a tragedy, a million times a statistic. Says it all really. :(
:( PP
Declan_Michael
30/04/2004, 9:23 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm
Just found the above article if your interested.
brendy_éire
30/04/2004, 10:46 PM
Not surprised really by the photos at all. We all knew that stuff was going on, as has been the case in Afghanistan. Just the soliders involved in this incident were stupid enough to take the photos.
As for them getting prosecuted?? Aye, fat chance. They'll be suspended, sent home, and everyone will forget about them. Sad, but true.
A face
01/05/2004, 12:22 AM
Aye, fat chance.
Yeah ... they are still investigating similar incidents in Afganistan, and how long ago was that, and it is still pending investigation. that just thats the biscuit.
They actually dont care about the Geneva convention at all, or anything else that stands in their way, or at least, thats the impression they give. Two fingers up to anyone that doesn't like it.
brendy_éire
01/05/2004, 12:39 PM
Anyone see the newest photos with the British soldier? Even more shocking than the US ones.
Again though, given the record of the Brits investing even more serious stuff in the north, it'll all come to nothing.
lopez
01/05/2004, 12:48 PM
Not surprised really by the photos at all. We all knew that stuff was going on, as has been the case in Afghanistan. Just the soliders involved in this incident were stupid enough to take the photos.
As for them getting prosecuted?? Aye, fat chance. They'll be suspended, sent home, and everyone will forget about them. Sad, but true.You don't have to go to Afghanistan. How's about Ireland. A para kills a joyrider, found guilty in court of murder, and gets let out in a year or two by the campaign of far-right ar*e wipes to go back and 'serve' :D :rolleyes: in his old regiment. Or the bloke who killed Bananarama's manager. Again found guilty of murder, out in a year, back 'serving'. Let's not even mention the torture of prisoners in the seventies. You're right Brendy: 'fat chance' indeed!
Anyone see the newest photos with the British soldier? Even more shocking than the US ones.
Article about it here (http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=502916§ion=news)
Duncan Gardner
02/05/2004, 9:12 AM
Steady on Lopez. In both the cases you detail the soldiers were prosecuted and imprisoned. Sure, they shouldn't have allowed back into the Army but aren't you implying a judicial cover-up? If so, not guilty.
Liam88. I have a number of close relatives in "the North" and actually I don't stereotype every single British soldier there. I hope you'll join me.
Steady on Lopez. In both the cases you detail the soldiers were prosecuted and imprisoned. Sure, they shouldn't have allowed back into the Army but aren't you implying a judicial cover-up? If so, not guilty.What I'm implying is that the soldiers were found guilty by a British court - hardly partial like say a kangaroo court in South Armagh. Normally murder would last for ten years at least - multiple murders longer as was the case with Lee Clegg - but in these cases they weren't. I'm sure the judges that sentenced them weren't at fault but the last time I looked prisoners do not get released because the Daily Mail ring up and ask that they should. Nor do they get their jobs back. It's not that I still think Clegg should be inside - the GFA ended that argument - just that it makes a mockery of the British army's role in Ireland as peacekeepers.
As for stereotyping soldiers. I think Liam was talking about people who may have been on the end of some 'summary' street justice or had their doors kicked in...by mistake of course! Having worked with quite a few ex-squaddies, I'd say there are a number that would fit into the category of soldier in the picture. Certainly they always had a few tales to tell about their visits to Ireland, but sadly they left Ireland still dissapointed. There are also a good number (wouldn't say most but perhaps half) that are really good blokes, even sticking up for my point of view on Ireland against those who know nothing about the place except what they've read in The Scum. I'm sure these photos are all fake. The group of soldiers I've mentioned above would have been as stupid as the Yanks and not resisted getting their mugs in the photos too.
Anyway enough about soldiers from me: Might get my mates Research Girl and the groupie back lecturing me about how many mercenaries... sorry, soldiers 'serving' from the Republic are in the self appointed 'world's greatest armed forces'. Nice to see you back for a 'discussion.' :D
Duncan Gardner
02/05/2004, 3:45 PM
Indeed I have not been away. Trust you had a good time in Poland, the cheerleaders impressed even if the game didn't :)
No doubt Liam 88 will answer for himself, but the implication in his post was that
a) he would likely be more critical of the British Army if he had relatives in NI, because
b) people in NI are likely to have been directly intimidated by the Army.
I see this as a bit of a generalisation...
Generalisations. We're all guilty of them!
Good time in Polonia indeed. Think Davros managed not to insult anyone despite the first couple of words of the pre-Federal Republic of Germany anthem in a kebab shop in Warsaw. Left him on the way to Poznan: God help the people of Poznan! :rolleyes:
liam88
02/05/2004, 8:47 PM
No doubt Liam 88 will answer for himself, but the implication in his post was that
a) he would likely be more critical of the British Army if he had relatives in NI, because
b) people in NI are likely to have been directly intimidated by the Army.
I see this as a bit of a generalisation...
No I didn't mean it like that. I said 'mabye' my opinions would be different because I can't go making judgements whenI don't have any close relatives in Northern Ireland.
I said it so as not to cause offence.
I know someone who's fiancee was shot while on a British army petrol before the ceasefire and never murdered or tortured in his life, don't think he was ever even involved in combat.
I just didn't want to go throwing around judgements when I know that there are people on this forum who have a lot more experience and knowledge of Northern Ireland than me :)
Unfortunately war crimes, human rights abuses etc are happening constantly around the world. I think its always strange that no one cares unless its the Americans or the British who are involved. Whats happening in Sudan at the moment is disgusting yet it hardly gets a mention anywhere.
See Here (http://www.amnesty.org/)
liam88
02/05/2004, 10:19 PM
Don't worry Liam.....yer still entitled to an opinion....you talk more sense than most unionists....
Your not saying I'm a unionist are you? I'm not
brendy_éire
02/05/2004, 11:20 PM
Whats happening in Sudan at the moment is disgusting yet it hardly gets a mention anywhere.
But Sudan is poor with no real natural resources. Nothing for the leaders of the 'free world' to gain from there. It's a crap world alright.
As for generalising of British soldiers, I find it hard not to. It seems that the majority of them have some sort of deep-rooted hatred of the Irish. From shooting dead my ma's friend on Bloody Sunday, locking my granda out of his house, shooting me with a plastic bullet when I was 9, or having an English solider point his automatic rifle at me and call me a "paddy *******" in my own country, they just don't care. So at the risk of generalising, the British Army are nothing more than a bunch of legalised thugs and murderers. Maybe there are some decent British soldiers, but they seem to be few and far between. I find it very difficult to have any sympathy whatsoever for any British soldier killed in Iraq. The likelihood is they deserved it.
lopez
02/05/2004, 11:21 PM
Aye,but most of the other clowns who do this,don't claim to be great upholders of world democracy blah.......Took the words out of my mouth.
i know but its peoples lives which count. Is it a hint of racism when thousands of people die and its hardly reported on. Why didnt people march for Rwanda or why arent they marching NOW for Sudan.
Its the same for some companies. Yoy should not be buying products from a whole host of companies.
eoinh
03/05/2004, 11:54 AM
Well for companies. See Here (http://www.corpwatch.org/) or here (http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/).
Read about Esso. And Nestle have got away with practices for years that should not be allowed
i know but its peoples lives which count. Is it a hint of racism when thousands of people die and its hardly reported on. Why didnt people march for Rwanda or why arent they marching NOW for Sudan.
Its the same for some companies. Yoy should not be buying products from a whole host of companies.Exactly. Even now the Rwanda genocide doesn't even bother me, probably because of media reporting at the time, and probably, if I was truly honest, they were Africans. :( Same could not be said about Yugoslavia. Had this web site been in existence in 1999 with the postponment of the game, we would have been vocal in our support for the game to be called off.
I've also boycotted loads of companies. French (greenpeace murder and nuclear bombs in South Pacific), Israeli, and since the Iraq war all American companies (except Ben & Jerry's Ice cream after Ben Cohen (I think!) sent me an email basically saying he was not supporting the war). I also don't buy sh*t from English farmers after their attempts to bring this country to its knees in 2000 over the fuel. Bunch of reactionary w*nkers: If they had a hint of left-wing about them they'd have been pummelled by the police. Anyway, boycotting goods is only a good way of making companies either change practices or put pressure on politicians if it is concerted. Past experience suggests it's p*ssing in the wind! :mad:
Hmmm, while obviously the actions of soldiers torturing captured Iraqis is a disgrace, I must admit I can't remember 1 single thread or post condemning the Iraqi regime for human rights abuses for years....Perhaps that went without saying. For example, if Saddam Hussein's regime was so wonderful for those of us complaining now, how come none of us ever went there.
Firstly this war was about WMD. Then it's about liberation from a tyrannical regime. Both now look like b*llocks. But then to me it was always b*llocks...or rather it was about oil. Put it another way, how would you like it if a son of yours was picked up for stealing a mars bar by the Garda, taken down the police station and beaten to an inch of his life. Pretty p*ssed off, I'd say. Might even call a few 'contacts' in the party and have the cop(s) charged for attempted murder. As someone who's been picked up by the police more than a couple of times in the England - including a visit to Paddington Green (though for drunkeness rather than terrorism) I've been pretty well treated. Or do the 'WOGs' out in Iraq not deserve the same treatment?
Metrostars
03/05/2004, 3:27 PM
Anyone who thinks that the Iraq war is about oil must be smoking some weird stuff or much like the Bush administration, only believes what he wants to believe. I think Bush really wanted to believe the sketchy intelligence from the CIA about Iraq and he perveiced Iraq as a potential threat. Of course this is b**locks as Lopez says but he was critisized for not sorting out Al Queda before 9/11 so he jumped the gun on Iraq. He truely skrewed up with Iraq.
As for the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, no excuse for that. Those soldiers responsible have whatever is coming to them.
Anyone who thinks that the Iraq war is about oil must be smoking some weird stuff or much like the Bush administration, only believes what he wants to believe. I think Bush really wanted to believe the sketchy intelligence from the CIA about Iraq and he perveiced Iraq as a potential threat. Of course this is b**locks as Lopez says but he was critisized for not sorting out Al Queda before 9/11 so he jumped the gun on Iraq. He truely skrewed up with Iraq.
As for the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, no excuse for that. Those soldiers responsible have whatever is coming to them.Despite the accusation that I smoke the Jamaican peace pipe (I don't unfortunately because of work, but my retirement do will be a festival of it - if I don't fall off the wagon in Amsterdam in June before ;) ) you do speak a lot of sense.
However two things point towards oil being at the very least, a factor. 1. The fast bucks to be made in Iraq. 2. The lack of intervention in other tyranical regimes. (Leaving North Korea alone - they could do some real damage - how about Magabe's Zimbabwe as a soft target? Pursuing his own Kristalnacht against white farmers (not all colonials either) and starving his own people in the bargain, must constitute a regime change, no?!)
Finally, if not actively supporting intervention in Afghanistan, I certainly saw it as a credible part of 'the war on terror'.
Interesting to compare the reactions from US & then British army superiors.
US don't really condemn much but just say not to judge all them based on a few & they'd be dealt with. Families of soldiers charged with cruelty say their son is a hero & should have shot the prisioners.
British condemn the actions & say soldiers have shamed whole army & will be kicked out.
Someone mentioned a joyrider being killed as bad :confused:
British condemn the actions & say soldiers have shamed whole army & will be kicked out.
Thought they were doubting the authenticity of the photos - thought this morning I heard that there were doubts as they weren't standard issue weapons in the photos.
That said, over the weekend, various army blokes and ex-army blokes were on 5live condemning it, but at the same time cautioning that they'd have to investigate and give due process as well.
That said, over the weekend, various army blokes and ex-army blokes were on 5live condemning it, but at the same time cautioning that they'd have to investigate and give due process as well.
Which i think is fair enough.
btw friend in the US said that pics of the US soldiers wasn;t big news as people more concerned about criticism of ex american footballer who killed in Afghanistan.
This thread should hardly pass without reference to the pregnant mother and four children (down to the age of two) who were raked with bullets by Palestinians over the weekend...Utterly disgraceful, but we'd be posting up numerous more posts about Palestinian kids killed by the Jews for every one Jewish kid.
Brutality breeds more of the same....the simple fact that a family(albeit who shouldn't be there) were despicably targeted,just shows how the whole situation is out of control.....back to the chicken & egg......It does, but I disagree about her right to be there. Why shouldn't she live in Palestine as a legal immigrant? And a lot of this land, contrary to belief, was actually bought by the settlers. Wouldn't say I'd have liked it if it was open season on us Paddies in the seventies.
Someone mentioned a joyrider being killed as bad :confused:Hey, hey, Pete, let's not stop there. How's about kneecapping for speaking your mind? :rolleyes:
Hey, hey, Pete, let's not stop there. How's about kneecapping for speaking your mind? :rolleyes:
Nah, don't approve of vigilantism as usually only clearing streets for their own gain.
If a "joy" rider breaks a checkpoint then can't complain if they shot at.
btw one of the best news gathering sites i've seen here (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/)
i know but its peoples lives which count. Is it a hint of racism when thousands of people die and its hardly reported on. Why didnt people march for Rwanda or why arent they marching NOW for Sudan.
Its the same for some companies. Yoy should not be buying products from a whole host of companies.
Sorry for quoting my own post :o but i mention Sudan and then THIS (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=MNSVKCFZOFWAICRBAEZSF EY?type=topNews&storyID=5034126) happens.
For a brilliant overview of Israel, Palestine, Lebanon,Turkey Syria etc see here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006547745/qid=1083683582/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/026-2379500-3983616) .
funnily enough its Syria which comes out as most tolerant to its minorities.
Sorry for quoting my own post :o but i mention Sudan and then THIS (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=MNSVKCFZOFWAICRBAEZSF EY?type=topNews&storyID=5034126) happens.
That be one of the flaws of the UN regional groupings system. Ain't much can do about in current structure but its only 1 seat amoung 53 so the US being a bit childish.
Metrostars
04/05/2004, 5:22 PM
Which i think is fair enough.
btw friend in the US said that pics of the US soldiers wasn;t big news as people more concerned about criticism of ex american footballer who killed in Afghanistan.
Gotta disagree with you there. The Pat Tillman story was bigger last week but definetely there is a lot of talk about the abuse stories here now. The investigations have started, not much else to do now until those are finished. The commanders higher up in the units responsible will most likely get canned.
Nah, don't approve of vigilantism as usually only clearing streets for their own gain.Who said anything about vigilantism?
Well perhaps if Bush's 'war of terror' hadn't been sidetracked, these w*nkers - or those like them - might be the one's getting their heads cut off...perhaps by Saudi Arabia for instance, where there seems to be an abundance of Al Qaeda members resident. Alas, in football parlance, 'Wobblya took his eyes off the ball,' and we're all paying for it.
My sympathy to this bloke's family. His killers deserve to rot in hell.
Well perhaps if Bush's 'war of terror' hadn't been sidetracked, these w*nkers - or those like them - might be the one's getting their heads cut off...perhaps by Saudi Arabia for instance, where there seems to be an abundance of Al Qaeda members resident. Alas, in football parlance, 'Wobblya took his eyes off the ball,' and we're all paying for it.
My sympathy to this bloke's family. His killers deserve to rot in hell.
Saudi Arabia where the Government chop of hands of people convicted of stealing. It's disgusting to see, but is it different from watching Bombs dropped on Baghdad live on sky news?
Saudi Arabia where the Government chop of hands of people convicted of stealing. It's disgusting to see, but is it different from watching Bombs dropped on Baghdad live on sky news?I'm against capital punishment in all forms. I'm merely stating that if the Septics had kept their focus on catching the true perveyors of 9-11 or whatever other buzz word you wish to call that event, this man would still be alive, and the people who are engaged in these forms of violence would be more easily dealt with. Instead Wobbleya and Dumbsfeld thought it was clever to invade the latter's old business partner's back yard, ruining in the process any sympathy the US had in the Arab world. I'd compare it with someone who's been assaulted in an Abrakebabra who while waiting for an ambulance helps himself to a free large Doner complete with chili sauce and taboulah. Absolute stupidity!
You think the terrorsists behind 9/11 and this most recent savagery are only doing this as some sort of revenge? These are butchers and murderers, they hardly seek political justification. Whether the US invaded Iraq or not, these people would be carrying on their terrrorist activities anyway, though technically it may be true that this particular individual would be alive. 9/11 itself happened before any invasion of Iraq...Where did I say anything about revenge. Not for the first time you've come on here, stirred up some sh*t and then misquoted people. So before we continue, as I get the impression sometimes that you are either a. not the full Euro or b. balls haven't dropped or c. a secret lemonade drinker (ie. a p*ss-head), could you please point out to me where I mentioned anything about revenge?
Stick it on the end of your posts as your new signature! :rolleyes: I won't bother waiting for an answer about me saying 'it's all about revenge, revenge, REVENGE, I tell ye.'
Thanks, I have.
Perhaps not as bizarre as your own signature, but definitely another of your beauts.Needs tidying up. You got a bit overexcited you poor thing. Put in a '1' instead of quotation mark. Apart from that, looks really fantastic. :D :D :D
Metrostars
12/05/2004, 7:54 PM
I'm against capital punishment in all forms. I'm merely stating that if the Septics had kept their focus on catching the true perveyors of 9-11 or whatever other buzz word you wish to call that event, this man would still be alive, and the people who are engaged in these forms of violence would be more easily dealt with. Instead Wobbleya and Dumbsfeld thought it was clever to invade the latter's old business partner's back yard, ruining in the process any sympathy the US had in the Arab world. I'd compare it with someone who's been assaulted in an Abrakebabra who while waiting for an ambulance helps himself to a free large Doner complete with chili sauce and taboulah. Absolute stupidity!
Except the US never had any sympathy from the Arab world before or after 9/11. Sure enough, the rest of the world had sympathy but Bush and co have thrown that away.
Been ready about German - Russian in WWII & almost some similarilties between what happening in Iraq now.
In WWII Hitler told his troops basaically that the Russian sub human & that they exempt from the normal rules of War for any "crimes" during the campaign. Bush has clearly sent out the message that the US can do whatever it likes post 9/11 as it has been targetted & that might is right.
If nothing else good came out of recent abuse allegations maybe would make Rumsfeld resign.
Been ready about German - Russian in WWII & almost some similarilties between what happening in Iraq now...Obviously the German 'total war' was far worse. A good comparison is with Britain and Ireland. During the seventies the Irish 'joke' was at it's highest, and having lived through that period, it is clear that this was an important tool of propaganda with regard to NI. Many Britons actually thought the Irish were subhuman in intellect and some Irish people when they f*cked up would have to apologise by pointing to their nationality. At school, despite producing some of the best modern writers in English, I never studied one Irish writer or poet. I also remember in 1979 the first international Mastermind took place and an Irishman won it. The Irish Post revealed the result before the programme was aired on the BBC and it caused uproar. I think that seemed to put a dent in the 'master' race's theories on the Paddies.
What makes it interesting about Iraq is that while Germany's intentions were a land grab through annihilation, the US and Blair the poodle are here to win 'hearts and minds.' :D Looking at the Val Kilmer in drag look-alike yesterday, I think there are also similarities in that the soldiers in Iraq 'ver only taking ze orders.' :rolleyes:
Dricky
13/05/2004, 11:08 AM
Does anybody remember Bush and his 'The Great and the Good'
not so great now.
What do they expect from the press when they have been spouting out all the ****e they had.
As for the British forces. A lot of their officers were trained and stationed in the north, where their human rights were always in question. There were beatings shooting murders and internment. No if that isn't a bad omen for them what was. So instead of dismissing the culprits they sent them off to Iraq.
about 9 months ago there was a charge brought against a group of officers from a batalion that had bee stationed from the north. It was thrown out. This is the case being investigated relating to the death of an Iraqi it is alleged.
If you give a thug a gun you give him power, that power makes bullies. Bullies pick on people with whatever tools they see fit.
Look at American culture it is one of be part of the team or else. It's a pack mentality.
Remember the pictures from Nam and agent orange being used. we all knew this was happening.
Isn't it Ironic that it is freedom of the press that has highlighted these problems.
Presumably most share the utter revulsion at the barbarity of a group that would, on live television, take a conscious human being, a civilian, and cut his head off. It's sick beyond belief.
Just on a point of order it wasn't on live TV. The first time it was released was on a website...
Agree totatally with your point though
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