Ireland's Greatest

[culloty82]

To say that the five shortlisted are truly the best is highly questionable - certainly one of the 1916 leaders should be included, but I would replace the other with Daniel O'Connell, the first modern Irish politician. Both Rory Gallagher and Phil Lynott have better musical claims than Bono, but would be trumped by Joyce in a cultural/arts selection. Don't think anyone would quibble over John Hume, and even though the argument for including a woman is in Robinson's favour, there must have been better female candidates?

[Cabs88]

it would always be a contentious issue who got in, like everything its a matter of opinion. Maybe bono's enduring lenght of time at the top stood in his favour, similarily mary robinson being the first female president. Looking forward to the series nonetheless.

[Charlie Darwin]

To say that the five shortlisted are truly the best is highly questionable - certainly one of the 1916 leaders should be included, but I would replace the other with Daniel O'Connell, the first modern Irish politician.
These things tend to be biased towards more recent figures.

The Irish fascination with James Connolly is bizarre considering he just showed up with a small army for different reasons than anyone else and then got killed. It's also interesting to note that the 1916 Rising was actually very unpopular at the time - the people of Dublin broadly opposed the violence and jeered the captured as they were led away. It was only the British authorities' perverse handling of the aftermath that won over the people.

Mary Robinson did a good job and all, but...

Rory Gallagher and Phil Lynott were unquestionably the most influential Irish musicians, but Bono is probably the country's most potent cultural export so I can see why he was chosen. The whole thing is a bit arbitrary in general though - people probably just voted based on their own criteria.

[TheBoss]

It looks like those chosen are quite recent, nobody from 1700s or 1800s, or even before then.

[Spudulika]

I guess Bono has been around for so long and is an International icon, sadly one of Phil Lynott's greatest songs (with no disrespect to others) most people think is a Metallica original, not realising that Thin Lizzy covered it originally. So he would be Ireland's greatest cultural exponent at all levels. Mary Robinson is someone who most only regard as being born in 1990, however she is one of our most important females to strove to bring Ireland from the FF/DeValera dark ages into some sort of decent society. Her work on the referenda of the 80's, Wood Quay, decriminalisation of homosexuality (both she and McAleese kicked off the campaign in the 70's with David Norris and others) and so many other elements that we take for granted now. Plus she was brilliantly blunt with the Israelis and Palestinians on human rights.

Daniel O'Connell was our first true leader and someone before his time. But history is lost to the ages and he's too far back to be appreciated by most.

I think, in balance, John Hume has less call to be put on the list than another doyen of Irish conflict politics - Mr. Paisley surely deserves the nod. He moved from violent anti-Catholic bigot with a severe chip on his shoulder right-wing psycho who actively attacked women and children and argued against equal rights for "damned papists" or moderate non-Catholics allied to some of the most dangerous and murderous elements this side of Interhamwe, to becoming an anti-Catholic bigot right winger who plays the Catholic child abuse card (I suppose it's different than smashing them over the heads with iron bars) in the guise of a gentle and kindly grandfather. On the whole he's changed more than Hume who remained pretty consistent in equal rights for all and progress, and saw his party lose power because of it. So it's big bad Ian for me :-)

[Billsthoughts]

Mary Robinson is someone who most only regard as being born in 1990, however she is one of our most important females to strove to bring Ireland from the FF/DeValera dark ages into some sort of decent society. Her work on the referenda of the 80's, Wood Quay, decriminalisation of homosexuality (both she and McAleese kicked off the campaign in the 70's with David Norris and others) and so many other elements that we take for granted now. Plus she was brilliantly blunt with the Israelis and Palestinians on human rights.


Am glad someone said it. People have very short memories.
I would have Noel Browne in there altho its become popular to dismiss him these days.
I would pick Geldof over Bono if its on contribution to the world outside of just music. If its music alone then I am not sure what Bono is doing in there.

[OneRedArmy]

Bono is being nominated for his charity work, debt forgiveness and RED campaign stuff. Nothing really to do with the music. At least that was my take on what Dave Fanning said on Friday's Late Late.

To be honest I wasn't paying that much attention as the preceding guest who sees an angel on everyone's shoulder had forced me to do other things.

[Spudulika]

Am glad someone said it. People have very short memories.
I would have Noel Browne in there altho its become popular to dismiss him these days.
I would pick Geldof over Bono if its on contribution to the world outside of just music. If its music alone then I am not sure what Bono is doing in there.

The forgotten Irish hero and only just over a year ago was being destroyed in public. I can't remember exactly what it was but I remember listening to Pat Kenny one morning and there were some people who were plugging a book who were ripping into the man. I'd only ever heard good things about him, so I couldn't knock either bunch, however I'd still have him up there with the greats.

Something I'm not sure about Mary Robinson, but didn't she defend David Norris in court? I vaguely recollect discussing it with a former professor who was good buddies with her, though I can't remember rightly.

[bennocelt]

The Irish fascination with James Connolly is bizarre considering he just showed up with a small army for different reasons than anyone else and then got killed. It's also interesting to note that the 1916 Rising was actually very unpopular at the time - the people of Dublin broadly opposed the violence and jeered the captured as they were led away. It was only the British authorities' perverse handling of the aftermath that won over the people.
.

Yeah cause 1916 and Irish republic was all thanks to the British:rolleyes:
Good to see Collins and Connolly make the list, maybe Parnell or Larkin would have been a nice choice
No opinion of Robinson and Hume
But Bono I cant stand him to be honest, every time he opens his mouth its embarrassing
Funny to see Joe Duffy is talking about Connolly. Thats funny:eek:

[pineapple stu]

He's right in what he says. 1916 would have been forgotten had not the Brits - once again - reacted completely over the top with the ringleaders.

[OneRedArmy]

Yeah cause 1916 and Irish republic was all thanks to the British:rolleyes:
Good to see Collins and Connolly make the list, maybe Parnell or Larkin would have been a nice choice
No opinion of Robinson and Hume
But Bono I cant stand him to be honest, every time he opens his mouth its embarrassing
Funny to see Joe Duffy is talking about Connolly. Thats funny:eek:Amazed you can have no opinion on the only two "serious" contemporary candidates?! Do you concentrate only on pre-establishment of the state history? Do you not own a TV?!

[Eminence Grise]

It seems to me that the final list largely asks “who did the most for Ireland?” rather than who is Ireland’s greatest person, and that makes a bit of a difference to the selection. It makes it all very political and that’s reflected in having it in this thread rather than, say, off topic or entertainment. Collins and Connolly benefit from a romanticised notion of nationalism, yet neither achieved their political goals – ultimately WT Cosgrave carried on Collins work and deserves great respect as the state’s first statesman; Hume came close to achieving his goals but ran out of time; Robinson was a great civil rights advocate who did sterling work with the UN, but we have had at least one greater international diplomat; and Bono is, well, good in small doses.

For their contribution to the world at large, I’d have GB Shaw (Fabian, the only Oscar and Nobel winner, founder of the London School of Economics), Ernest Walton (split the atom) and Robert Boyle (father or modern chemistry) on the list.

But I’d probably give my vote to Sean Lester, one-time Director of Publicity of the Free State, then League of Nations High Commissioner to Danzig, where he won worldwide respect for standing up to the Nazis, even though his own safety was under threat. He ended his career as the last Secretary General of the League during WW2, and helped pave the way for the UN.

[Bluebeard]

Here was the original thread on it, with the original shortlist on it.

I hadn't heard that they were kicking the proverbials out of Noel Browne in Ireland lately - what was the cause / reason for this?

The Sean Lester stuff is interesting - to my great shame, I had never heard about the guy before. I should have learned more about characters like this, and Browne, and indeed Cosgrave in the school system. Perhaps it is on the syllabus now. Perhaps it was on the curriculum then, and I slept through it.

[Gather round]

(double post)

[bennocelt]

He's right in what he says. 1916 would have been forgotten had not the Brits - once again - reacted completely over the top with the ringleaders.


Amazed you can have no opinion on the only two "serious" contemporary candidates?! Do you concentrate only on pre-establishment of the state history? Do you not own a TV?!

Yeah but the point is it needed men like Connolly and the rest to start it all. Someone had to get the bullets.

When I say no opinion I mean I dont have an opinion on them. I am not a huge fan of Robinson, and Hume is a decent skin, but i would have picked othesr to make that top 5. Do I have to have an opinion on them! Is it a big deal?

Also thinking maybe Sean Lemass wouldnt be a bad choice either.

[Gather round]

* Van Morrison (I'm guessing his music will remain popular/ influential for longer than Lizzy, Taste or even U2's)

* Jonathan Swift (Gulliver will outlast My fair lady, Lady Windermere etc)

* Mary-Mary Robinson, for reasons described above

* Dan O'Connell, ditto

* WT Cosgrave (all such lists should include someone called William)


He's right in what he says. 1916 would have been forgotten had not the Brits - once again - reacted completely over the top with the ringleaders.

By the standards of the time- widespread acceptance of judicial executions, and during a World War- maybe it wasn't that over the top. And of course they spared Eddie Coll to go on to greatness.

They could probably have ended it without blowing up O'Connell Street, Stephen's Green and that biscuit factory, I agree.

[Eminence Grise]

The Sean Lester stuff is interesting - to my great shame, I had never heard about the guy before. I should have learned more about characters like this, and Browne, and indeed Cosgrave in the school system. Perhaps it is on the syllabus now. Perhaps it was on the curriculum then, and I slept through it.

I think he's one of our forgotten greats. I only "discovered" him when I started my doctorate a few years ago. He was a remarkable |man: Northern Protestant, Irish nationalist, journalist, propagandist (when it wasn't a pejorative) and diplomat. I later discovered that I've known his grandson for years! It's such a small country...

Douglas Gageby, the former Irish Times editor, was his son-in-law and wrote his biography (light on criticism, obviously!)

[Cabs88]

a point to note, on the one hand O'Connell was a great leader, but his refusal to speak gaeilge and his ensuing popularity coupled with other factors at the time saw a sharp decline in irish..

[Razors left peg]

Steven Gately was in the top ten nominations on this list... what in gods name could have justified that

[Charlie Darwin]

His death.

[Crosby87]

Shane McGowan is the greatest ever. Pogues are by far the best and most important Irish Band of all time.

Sam Beckett can't be included i guess b/c he didn't like Ireland too much.

[Spudulika]

Shane McGowan is the greatest ever. Pogues are by far the best and most important Irish Band of all time.

Sam Beckett can't be included i guess b/c he didn't like Ireland too much.

Last I heard Shane is English, I think the same as the Pogues, then again Connolly and Larkin being mentioned throws it into the mix.

Beckett was a great but Shaw would have a deeper body of work, as for Oscar Wilde....

[Billsthoughts]

shane macgowan is from tipperary. I know they are behind the times down ther but dont think they are still under british rule.

[Crosby87]

Shane spent time growing up over there but he is most assuredly Irish. I hope that person was being sarcastic? Sacriledge.

[Dodge]

But I’d probably give my vote to Sean Lester, one-time Director of Publicity of the Free State, then League of Nations High Commissioner to Danzig, where he won worldwide respect for standing up to the Nazis, even though his own safety was under threat. He ended his career as the last Secretary General of the League during WW2, and helped pave the way for the UN.

He didn't win worldwide respect at the time. In fact he was a lone voice for sometime. He recently had a room dedicated to him in Gdansk's town council

Anyway its a TV show. They were always going to go populist. best we can hope for is that some watching will think "there has to have been someone better than bono" and then doa bit of research

[Spudulika]

Guys, Shane is English, build and bridge and all that. It doesn't make his talent or presence any less important, nor the fact that he is of Irish extraction.

In the overall list I'd have ensured Admiral Brown or General Lacy got a mention, or Lavelle Nugent, they were massive figures in their day and contributed hugely to world history, but the further back we go the less important in the modern age figures seem to become.

[Macy]

Are we back to this nonsense that you have to be born here to be Irish? Interesting that you totally missed excluding Connolly for being born in Scotland (and Larkin was also mention earlier - born in England).

[pineapple stu]

Should we swap Paul McGrath for the Duke of Wellington on the list, yeah?

[Eminence Grise]

He didn't win worldwide respect at the time. In fact he was a lone voice for sometime. He recently had a room dedicated to him in Gdansk's town council

Some contemporary newspaper accounts of his appointment to the Danzig position:

Dublin Evening Mail October 1933: “All the newspapers agree that the High Commissionership of Danzig is a post that demands tack, courage and diplomacy of no mean order. Those who know Sean Lester best are well aware that he possesses these qualities in abundant measure. Few Irishmen of our time have had a better claim to high preferment. His intellectual qualities, and, hardly less, his temperament and character make him eminently fit to govern the Free City of Danzig.”

Irish Independent 10 Nov 1933: “As everybody who has been to Geneva knows, Mr Lester is one of the most popular of the younger diplomats, and enjoys a reputation for shrewdness and sound judgment second to none.”

Irish (?) Independent, 16 January 1934: “In all his work [as Irish delegate to the League of Nations], it was stated, he had shown remarkable tact, shrewdness of judgment, persuasiveness and, when necessary, firmness.”

These are all taken from the Lester Mss in UCD Archives (P203/105). There are a lot more newspaper clippings there in another file, including many which lauded Lester for his work, and deplored the Nazi aggression he faced down.


Five decades of communism might explain why it took so long to commemorate him in Poland, but that’s just my surmising.

[Dodge]

Press reports in Ireland do not equate to Worldwide acclaim.

I'm not arguing that with you over the hugely important role he played. I'm jsut pointing out that then, as now, he was criminally undervalued. I recommend this book to anyone interested http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sean-Lester-Poland-Takeover-Danzig/dp/0716529688

[Spudulika]

Should we swap Paul McGrath for the Duke of Wellington on the list, yeah?

Paul McGrath never beat the French!!! Or had a boot named after him, so, maybe :-)

[pineapple stu]

On the other hand, I've never heard Lansdowne Road chant "Ooh ah Duke of Wellington".

[Spudulika]

On the other hand, I've never heard Lansdowne Road chant "Ooh ah Duke of Wellington".

When Paul McGrath appears in Blackadder, then he'd get my vote :-)