Here come the good times - for those in power

[Spudulika]

Welcome IMF, if the reports have any veracity about them!

The thought of Ireland becoming another IMF junkie - with nothing left to sell, it's something that continues to slip under the radar - no report on the news at 1, and now Joe's starting off on Biffo and his impersonations, took a caller to raise it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/government-perilously-close-to-calling-in-imf-report-warns-2341197.html

[OneRedArmy]

At least 50% chance we'll be singled out like Greece & Iceland & external intervention required over the next fortnight. Seems like an unstoppable wave building in the international markets that we've finally reached the tipping point.

Analogy is that we took a few wrong turns and our canoe is going through some rapids, with either a waterfall or a calm river at the end. Main problem is no matter how hard we paddle, we can't change the outcome..

Buckle up, it's going to be a rough ride.

[Spudulika]

Getting more worrying still, 2 more large "investments" by Irish companies/individuals/banks have gone to the wall, and a 3rd is in "extreme financial distress". I'm going to find the online version of the hard copy I read at the office this morning, the 3rd situation saw a major investment from Anglo Irish and BoI, it was in excess of 100million euros, the money is gone, the local "investors" never materialised and there will be more to come as there were 4 more projects to follow. The worst thing was that they secured 20% funding from a locally based bank, which called in the loan and now it's all stopped. This was deemed a performing loan or asset by NAMA - it never was, it just suited them to say so.

[Fr Damo]

Even in the Irish indo although the front page headline was about IMF intervention, the article finsihed on page 9 or ten! On wednesday we had 10 straight pages of fall out in the same paper!

It's getting to the stage now where the threat of IMF action is more restrictive and prohibitive that if they actually came in for a few months to run the show.

I'd like to ask this, while some of the politicos in Iceland are being questioned about how they went bust, could the same not happen here much in the same way the the Director of corporate informent does with reckless directors? Wasnt economic treasion mentioned after sept 29th 08?

This Country's balance sheet appears to be in tatters and to keep borrowing at the rates being mentioned on the markets is financial suicide. It's time to default.

[Lim till i die]

Can someone on here better up than me give an idea of what this kind of intervention would mean in pounds, shillings and pence??

As in Civil Service Wages, Social Welfare, are they all in trouble like??

[Noelys Guitar]

Can someone on here better up than me give an idea of what this kind of intervention would mean in pounds, shillings and pence??

As in Civil Service Wages, Social Welfare, are they all in trouble like??

This is what the IMF did in Iceland. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2008/INT111908A.htm
But our situation in manys ways is much worse so who knows what they will cut.

[Spudulika]

The IMF are a fascists/FF wet dream.

1. They assess a nations assets.
2. They assess a nations revenue streams.
3. They assess a nations spend.

Now, they already know what all the above are, however they do this so as not to leave anything to chance - you can be sure they already have all they need and have their little cubicles set up.

Be prepared for drastic cuts in social welfare spend (child benefits will be first hit - you only have to look at the way it's being introduced through the media, apparently middle class Mommies spend it on coffee with the girls, hair cuts or shoes), infrastructural projects will be downgraded (some rightly so, though what normally happens is new sharks are let in the tank), community projects are classed as "non-priority", hikes will occur in electricty/gas supply for domestic users (especially) and some other little twists in government recruitment where civil servant numbers will be cut - and not from the unnecessary levels.

Privatisation will become a real spectre - one of our last great preserves, the ESB, will go. We'll have to pay for domestic water supplies - the organisation and running of which will be bundles into smaller "efficient" companies and be sold off to commercial interests. Transport will be privatised - railways first hit, then Bus Eireann, then airlines. RTE will be broken up and sold off.

If anyone thinks this is a bad dream, just look at what they did in South America with their short term "aid". These people are only looking at the quickest way for a country to pay back it's debts, not to develop a stable model that can sustain itself long term. It's like letting an LOI Chairman loose on a Fortune 500 company, 15minutes of knocking on the door to the group stages, and 15 years of shame having destroyed all credibility in the club and country.

[mypost]

Transport will be privatised - railways first hit, then Bus Eireann, then airlines. RTE will be broken up and sold off.

That's a good thing.

[Spudulika]

Which part? Transport or RTE?

Transport is the worst of all to be done, what will happen is routes will drop off even more than they have done - ie only profitable routes will be maintained, infrastructure will be dropped to the bottom of the interest file - because it's not so important.

RTE being broken up and sold off will have mixed blessings, though I think that it may well be the last resort.

[OneRedArmy]

These people are only looking at the quickest way for a country to pay back it's debts, not to develop a stable model that can sustain itself long term.Is that why most of the IMF's staff work in Financial Stability, going round the world reviewing the financial health of every country, year in, year out, issuing country specific and global reports aiming to prevent sovereign default? The point is that they spend much more time and effort on fire prevention than firefighting.

[mypost]

Which part? Transport or RTE?

Transport is the worst of all to be done, what will happen is routes will drop off even more than they have done - ie only profitable routes will be maintained, infrastructure will be dropped to the bottom of the interest file - because it's not so important.

RTE being broken up and sold off will have mixed blessings, though I think that it may well be the last resort.

Both.

Anything that screws up IE's 100% grip on the Irish train service is to be welcomed, and would allow private companies to run existing heritage/tourist lines as passenger services. This evening, the Waterford-Rosslare line shuts. It will never be reopened, unless a private firm can come in and run the service. Private companies may also run an overnight service on longhaul routes, which IR refuse to operate.

RTE are the central player in the Irish tv market. Increased competition will provide greater choice and improve programme content on existing stations. We also need to get rid of the licence fee. It was brought in decades ago when tv's were relatively scarce. That isn't the case now. Even handing RTE the licence fee but no revenue from advertising, as with the BBC, would help rival stations to compete.

[Macy]

Yeah, privatisation worked so well in the UK... Some example to use, as the only reason Waterford - Rosslare survived so long is because of Irish Rails Public Service remit.

Whats the population, and the number of licence payers, in the UK, compared to Ireland? An extra 2 TV3's is exactly what we need, as that's what we'll get. Some venture capitalist will buy RTE, sell off Donnybrook, and then it'll cheapest possible content from then on - the public service remit will be served by rubbish like whatever TV3's lunchtime (Midday?), and expose type programmes, and Ireland AM - cheap crap that somehow meets the news and current affairs requirements! RTE has problems - the only issue that may be solved by privatisation would be star salaries. Everything else would get worse, as the newspaper and radio sectors show that privatisation doesn't equal editorial independence.

btw Greece would be the better example to look at for our case, given the EU and Euro membership

[Eminence Grise]

God forbid we'd end up with more TV3s! There is a case to be made, though, for selling off parts of RTE: selling RTE2 would bring in revenue to help redevelop the Donnybrook site, and, with digital channels, RTE would have still have a strong television core that could be augmented by bought-in productions - and there are a few decent Irish production houses that would welcome new opportunities. Radio na Gaeltacht could be hived off and merged with TG4 (competition rules permitting), in the hope that synergies there would create a slightly stronger Irish language broadcaster.

RTE being state-owned also means that it can't take a particular editorial line. Can you imagine if it were bought by Denis O'Brien, or Tony O'Reilly or any other media tycoon with an agenda, or Berlusconi-type desire to make it big in politics?

Abolishing the licence fee would be disastrous: it would create a race to the bottom, with wall-to-wall English TV rip-offs and repeats. It would also damage the independent production sector, which would have a knock-on effect on Ireland's abilty to attract large-scale film/TV productions. As it currently stands, taking a percentage of the licence fee and making it available to other production companies and broadcasters is a better solution. I'd have no quibble with that percentage being increased, provided tighter quality controls were in place to stop TV3 making drivel like Lawless Ireland, and encourage more of the type of documentary on TG4.

[mypost]

Yeah, privatisation worked so well in the UK... Some example to use, as the only reason Waterford - Rosslare survived so long is because of Irish Rails Public Service remit.

Privatisation has worked in the UK. There are fewer industrial disputes, fewer strikes, increased competition leading to better services. Here, the market in most sectors is centralised to one authority in the sector. So if it works well and good, if it doesn't work, we're all screwed.


Whats the population, and the number of licence payers, in the UK, compared to Ireland?

Does it matter what the population is? The BBC have their licence fee, but no advertising, which allows other stations to compete with them.


RTE being state-owned also means that it can't take a particular editorial line. Can you imagine if it were bought by Denis O'Brien, or Tony O'Reilly or any other media tycoon with an agenda, or Berlusconi-type desire to make it big in politics?

Abolishing the licence fee would be disastrous: it would create a race to the bottom, with wall-to-wall English TV rip-offs and repeats.

RTE have traditionally gone easy on the government. You saw that most recently in their Lisbon coverage, their expressions of frustration at having to give both sides equal airtime, you saw it in years gone by with sketch programmes of politicians clamped down/cut, (e.g. Scrap Saturday, Bull Island) and imo they also go easy on the government in order to aid them gain licence fee increases later on.

The licence fee was brought in when tv's and tv channels were few and far between. Now in the digital age, everyone has a tv, and they have 150 channels. The licence fee is outdated, punitive, unfair on other broadcasters, and should be abolished.

[OneRedArmy]

Got the bonds away at a penal rate of interest. We effectively kicked the ball down the pitch 20 yards. The big question still hasn't been answered (how much will Anglo end up costing?). The problem is, until the economy at least flattens for a period of time (and it hasn't), there's no way of stating this with any certainty. If things keep getting worse, even more loans will go bad.

[Dodge]

Privatisation has worked in the UK. There are fewer industrial disputes, fewer strikes, increased competition leading to better services. Presumably you've never travelled by rail in the UK.

[mypost]

I have.

Another presumption wrong.

[Eminence Grise]

The TV licence was a form of luxury taxation, in the same way that wireless sets were levied at £1 or 10s, (depending on type) in the 1920s. It was a logical extension of an existing scheme that the taxpayer accepted. The mixed model of licence fee and commercial revenue was commonplace in Europe, and it made sense in a country of 2.9m where a licence fee alone would not pay for the service, and where there was no competition looking for a share of the revenue. The mixed model still holds sway in a lot of European countries, so while it might be outdated in a conjectural sense, in implementation it isn't.

It's not punitive, because you can have the option - admittedly unwieldy - of avoiding paying for it by using a TV converter connected to a computer, digital projector and speaker system.

The unfairness aspect was addressed to some degree by taking a percentage of the fee and using it to fund independent production companies, from whom TV3, TG4 and, which I disagree with, RTE commission programming. I'd rather RTE used their resources more cleverly and produced more in-house, rather than applying for funding that was intended to be taken away from it. But that was a political sop when the decision was made. Abolishing the licence fee means that you're cutting an important revenue stream from other broadcasters. Increasing the percentage and barring RTE from applying would make more sense. But only, as I said in a post above, if controls are in place to stop absolute dross being produced by TV3, who are owned by a media corporation that dwarfs RTE and which could easily stump up a few quid for decent programming rather than repeating rubbish we're already ignored on ITV.

The equal broadcast time during referenda and elections is frustrating for RTE and all broadcasters because it means having to give time to fringe interests with little to contribute to debate and discourse. Any journalist worth their salt wants to be asking questions of the big boys, not the loony fringe. It also means that ratings can suffer. I do agree that RTE is too politically controlled, but that has always been the relationship between the state and the national broadcaster - de Valera even appointed his most trusted propagandist as Deputy Director of 2RN! (And variously Government Press Officer and Irish Press editor!!) Tom Savage, once of Carr Communications is now the chair of the RTE board; with his wife, Terry Prone, and their offspring, the one broadcaster who makes Tubridy look brilliant, Anton Savage for years they have done media training for half the politicians in the country! So, that is an uncomfortably close relationship. And, yes, Scrap Saturday got pulled for being too close to the knuckle. Maybe Bull Island too, but that was an anodyne attempt at satire. Much like Nob Nation, it relied on impersonation and caricature rather than sharp satirical content. But you know, TV3 isn't controlled by the government, and it has never once attempted a satirical programme to have a go at the government. Or, for that matter, ever attempted anything like RTE's current affairs output. And, I'd have to check the ratings on this, but I daresay Primetime gets a higher vieweship than Banged Up Abroad - and viewers equals cash for commercial broadcasters.

[Dodge]

I have.

Another presumption wrong.

Well then I can only assume you're a liar. If you think thatssa good service compared to ireland

[mypost]

I'm not a liar as it is a good service.

Another assumption wrong.

[dahamsta]

Lads, I've no problem with debate but could ye try to sound more professional than the Dail?

I've travelled by rail in the UK. The main service I used was operated by Connex, who were terrible and lost their contract because of it. Their replacement is grand, can't complain but wouldn't praise. It was a city to suburban route though, so it's probably not the best representative. I've travelled to Kent too, the service was dire, didn't actually make it there the first day and barely made it the second. It was weather, which is fair enough, but the communications were absolutely terrible.

As has already been pointed out in this thread, if it'll work at all, privatisation will only work on the busy routes, and those outside the busy routes are marginalised. In Ireland, where people have moved out of the cities and will have to continue to do so, that's not good. In addition, although the modernisation of transport in public hands has been dire - I mean seriously, have you seen Dublin's idea of integrated ticketing? - privatisation will only improve this in the short term. If at all, if we're to use records on things like bikes for advertising as an example.

I have one last word on this subject: Railtrack

[Macy]

I've lived in the UK and here, and I am telling you now that Irish Rail and Dublin Bus are far better than their post privatisation UK equivalents. Although I think the mask has slipped and it's really about Union smashing, nothing to do with service provision - god forbid workers standing up for their rights with my post wanting to go about his business.

RTE is bias towards FF. But bias won't be solved by privatisation. I'd have more problem with the website being effectively a seperate commercial operation whilst Radio and TV still plugging it - that's where the unfairness comes imo. Number of licence payers clearly matters, particularly when comparing to the BBC. I'm sure RTE could manage without adverts with that income too.

A new low by FF on Primetime tonight saying getting the bonds away at such a rate was a success and shows the markets have faith in them! ECB/ IMF bailout only a question of when now, imo.

[bennocelt]

Living in the UK at moment, have to say possibly the service of irish rail is much better. I take the great Western into London central and no matter how busy it is it only ever has three carriages and is always packed to the rafters. But having said that the price of Irish rail is a joke, how much a weekly return ticket to get out of Dublin (nearly cheaper to get a ticket to london!)

Would be great if RTE were broken up. Home grown tv shows usually mean drivel presented by Daithi O Shea, Lucy Kennedy, Baz or some gah inspired muck.

[OneRedArmy]

Not only is Irish Rail better than the UK, the prices are in a different world. Belfast to Dublin (2 hour journey) is about €65 for a standard class return peak fare (€95 first class). London to Bristol (1 hour 45 mins) standard peak return fare is £170 (£260 first class).

Deregulation and privatisation of the railways in the UK has been an unmitigated disaster.

[Macy]

Would be great if RTE were broken up. Home grown tv shows usually mean drivel presented by Daithi O Shea, Lucy Kennedy, Baz or some gah inspired muck.
And whats the quality of the TV3 equivalents? RTE has (many) flaws, but to think that it would be better as a commercial operation is lunacy.

[Spudulika]

I'd hate to see RTE privatised, it's got it's flaws, lots of them, but I don't know a single national broadcaster that doesn't. There are plenty who slag off the BBC, but it still does the job. I know the GAA bashers on here won't agree, but they provide value for money in the large sports content and it would be interesting to see a Celebrity Gaffer show for amateur (and amateur run) clubs, Kathryn Thomas taking over Carlow Town, Bill Cullen and Sheriff YC, Roddy Collins and Bohs, oh wait a second.

[Eminence Grise]

When I suggested that RTE be broken up, it was so that the overtly commercial wings like 2FM and RTE2 could be sold off for profit, allowing RTE to use the licence fee for more public service broadcasting (more sport on digital, more documentaries and current affairs, drama co-productions with the private sector etc). So, it certainly wouldn't be privatisation, but a strategic disposal of assets, with a more consolidated national broadcaster re-emerging. It might be less reliant on advertising revenue, and better able to produce quality viewing that minimises toxic levels of exposure to Daithi bloody O'Se, Lucy Kennedy, Pat Shortt, Eurostar, Celebrity Bainisteor, Farm, Jigs and Reels and the rest of the rubbish they've been churning out to keep up with the competitive viewing market. It's like TG4: remove the financial need to pander to audiences seeking cheap, no-thinking entertainment (most likely the C2,D and Es), and better programming results (which should attract the more lucrative A,B,C1 and maybe Fs) for advertising.

[Dodge]

Patronise much?

RTE panders to advertisers, and advertsers don't want to know about poor C2s, Ds and Es.

Ergo its your ABC1s that are watching the "popular" drivel

[dahamsta]

Dodge, know the aggressive smart-arsery on the head or I'll ban you from CA.

[Dodge]

Didn't think I was being aggressive. Apologies if anyone thought so.

I do have a problem with anyone who thinks only professional people (as defined by ABC1) are interested in quality programming though

[dahamsta]

Dodge, you know damned well you're being agressive, and not just here; and I'm sick to death of warning you about this kind of behaviour. Stop it, now.

[Eminence Grise]

I think you’re confusing pedantry (which is my failing, but I’m an academic - it goes with the territory) with being patronising, which I absolutely reject. I'm not offended or angered by your posts, but I do want to clarify where I’m coming from.



I’ll admit that the JICNARS scale isn’t perfect: I’m a B, or will be again when I finish in college and get back to full-time work, but I read the Sun and grew up in a D/C2 household; An E may have a MBA, and be temporarily displaced on the scale. An F may run a herd of 200 prize-winning cows, and be as rich as Croesus. But the scale, for all its faults, is used and understood within mar comms. I’ll accept that more psychographic and behavioural factors are used than just JICNARS, but the end result is that you’ll see fewer ads for ringtones on RTE1 on a weekday night than TV3. Compare the schedules, you’ll see why.



As for advertisers not wanting to know about C2,D,E,F – that’s just a reductio ad absurdum. It all depends what you’re hocking. F is more important to Ivomec than all other categories combined; E and D for those ads urging you to part with unwanted gold jewellery for cash. Advertisers place their ads around programmes that deliver the audience to whom they want to sell.

[Dodge]

Nope, I knew he was referring to JICNARS.

I still absolutely reject his assertion that economic and professional status have any bearing on what level of quality you want in your TV programmes.

EDIT; my last post in CA for a while as I'll be banned soon enough

[Fr Damo]

OneRedArmy

Got the bonds away at a penal rate of interest. We effectively kicked the ball down the pitch 20 yards. The big question still hasn't been answered (how much will Anglo end up costing?). The problem is, until the economy at least flattens for a period of time (and it hasn't), there's no way of stating this with any certainty. If things keep getting worse, even more loans will go bad.


But getting back closer to the thread title, it is an indictment on the opposition that they are letting Coughlan get away on News at one saying how over subcribed the bond was and the Markets view Ireland as a good risk. Of course it was over subcribed, Soverign Ireland is being mugged. Much in the same way as those with subprime lenders charged two and three % above your AIBs / BOI's et al during the property frenzy.

By 2013 if we continue on this course we will be paying 5billion in Interest pa (on earnings of 38 and expenditure of say 40billion)

[OneRedArmy]

But getting back closer to the thread title, it is an indictment on the opposition that they are letting Coughlan get away on News at one saying how over subcribed the bond was and the Markets view Ireland as a good risk. Of course it was over subcribed, Soverign Ireland is being mugged. Much in the same way as those with subprime lenders charged two and three % above your AIBs / BOI's et al during the property frenzy.

By 2013 if we continue on this course we will be paying 5billion in Interest pa (on earnings of 38 and expenditure of say 40billion)In fairness, its Mary Coughlan we're talking about....! As for getting mugged, would you lend money to us?! Perception is reality and we're perceived as a high risk, ergo you have to offer a higher interest rate.

As you say, we'll be paying for this for years.

[Billsthoughts]

I still absolutely reject his assertion that economic and professional status have any bearing on what level of quality you want in your TV programmes.


Agree with this totally. Am sure lots of well off young professionals watch the X Factor or soaps.

[Spudulika]

I was really surprised by the glorying in selling the bonds in the media, led by the same people who denied a bubble, who backed rising house prices and who didn't see any trouble (not all government people either). When Germany can sell bonds 4% lower than we can then it's a horrible sign. If it were under 6%, I'd be happy enough, however we're being slowly fed to the wolves and are now resembling more and more a full banana republic. I know there are subtle differences, though we were distracted by Biffo and Lenihan, then the sale of bonds are trumpeted as a return to stability. It's a shame on our media.

[mypost]

I've lived in the UK and here, and I am telling you now that Irish Rail and Dublin Bus are far better than their post privatisation UK equivalents. Although I think the mask has slipped and it's really about Union smashing, nothing to do with service provision - god forbid workers standing up for their rights with my post wanting to go about his business.


When I've travelled over there, the trains have been reliable, spacious, clean, and with reasonable fares. Closer to home, the Enterprise train is the most comfortable train in this country. I'm not saying there aren't unreliable trains over there, but from my experience, there has never been grounds for complaint.

Irish Rail's catchphrase on the other hand is, "We'd like to apologise for...." Trains are frequently dirty, expensive, and late. The only thing Irish Rail has over UK Rail imo is it's safety record, where there hasn't been a major accident since Buttevant.

However, it's perfect compared to Dublin Bus. Dublin Bus has all those issues, as well as rude drivers, and are constantly late. An experiment a number of years ago saw the introduction of digital timing boards similiar to as seen on the DART. It didn't last given how unreliable the buses were. The timetable at most stops, are merely marks on a page rather than anything approaching reliable information.


The TV licence was a form of luxury taxation, in the same way that wireless sets were levied at £1 or 10s, (depending on type) in the 1920s. It was a logical extension of an existing scheme that the taxpayer accepted.

In today's economic climate, people can't take "luxury taxation", nor an outdated tax introduced nigh on 50 years ago, that bears no resemblance to the world today. I see the point of the BBC having a licence fee, in exchange for no advertising. The no advertising is a massive attraction for viewers, while the BBC gets to fund itself another way. It's a win win situation for both viewer and broadcaster. It also allows other stations to compete with them for current affairs programmes, soaps, and sports coverage, on cable and satellite.


It's not punitive, because you can have the option - admittedly unwieldy - of avoiding paying for it by using a TV converter connected to a computer, digital projector and speaker system.

While possible, few people will ever take it up. I could pretty much live on the rte player, and youtube for tv content if I needed to, but people want to watch their shows in front of a conventional tv. For that, they have to fork out a hefty fee, which is outdated.


if controls are in place to stop absolute dross being produced by TV3, who are owned by a media corporation that dwarfs RTE and which could easily stump up a few quid for decent programming rather than repeating rubbish we're already ignored on ITV.

RTE are no strangers to repeating other rubbish. Only in their case, it's the BBC's rubbish.


The equal broadcast time during referenda and elections is frustrating for RTE and all broadcasters because it means having to give time to fringe interests with little to contribute to debate and discourse. Any journalist worth their salt wants to be asking questions of the big boys, not the loony fringe. But you know, TV3 isn't controlled by the government, and it has never once attempted a satirical programme to have a go at the government. Or, for that matter, ever attempted anything like RTE's current affairs output. And, I'd have to check the ratings on this, but I daresay Primetime gets a higher vieweship than Banged Up Abroad - and viewers equals cash for commercial broadcasters.

While equal airtime may be frustrating for RTE, the viewer/listener is the beneficiary, and has the opportunity to be well-informed for a neutral, or fully informed to take a side. The "looney fringe" have their side of the story to put across as well, and it's important that they get that chance to state their case. Even more so in European referenda where all the big boys always gang up on one side of the debate.

RTE currently has the best of both worlds, with income from licencing and advertising. It has all the major sports rights, all the popular chat shows, the major current affairs shows, runs 2 radio stations, has a hand in other networks, and a 24/7 online news stream. With such vast resources, it's no wonder that the other networks struggle to compete. They shouldn't be able to have that massive competitive advantage imo, but because of the licence fee, they have.

[Eminence Grise]

...which gets me back to my original point that there is a good case to be made for RTE being broken up, with one part remaining a mixed-model national broadcaster, and commercial elements being sold off to the private sector...

[OneRedArmy]

...which gets me back to my original point that there is a good case to be made for RTE being broken up, with one part remaining a mixed-model national broadcaster, and commercial elements being sold off to the private sector.........effectively replicating admin and all non-"content" services and consequently costs?

I see the problem, and I agree RTE is trying to serve many masters and is essentially in an unfair situation, but we have to remember we are still a small country and that does impact how much competition there will be.

[pineapple stu]

When I've travelled over there, the trains have been reliable, spacious, clean, and with reasonable fares.
ORA has given an example of how the fares aren't reasonable. I've travelled from Bristol to London as well, and can verify the fare he gives (fortunately, I only went one way).

I've travelled regularly in England and Ireland by rail (most recently being last night, when I got the Rosslare Harbour train home from Dún Laoghaire), and trains, in general, aren't dirty here (in fact, they often have staff going through the train picking up rubbish). The trains are spacious, certainly compared to the train I got from London to Holyhead last month.

If you're to maintain your views of rail travel in England, can I suggest you heed at the rules of the forum and start providnig some examples, rather than just saying that things are as you say because they are as you say?

[Eminence Grise]

I don't quite follow you: there would be no replication that I can see. Maybe I've missed something? I do agree with you that RTE is pulled in too many directions, and in trying to serve all masters is spread too thinly. As I see it, a broken-up RTE, would work with a slimmed down staff. Some of those who leave (content and non-content roles) could find work in the new privately owned entities, so it would effectively be a transfer of staff to similar roles, but not replication. RTE and the new entities would have different remits (one PSB, the others commercial) and the content is unlikely to overlap, while the private entities would be likely to cut non-content costs to a minimum. I'm not a hundred per cent sure of the implication of the EU's Television Without Frontiers directive, but I think it allows for transmission of broadcasts across international borders, so although we're in a small country, there is a European market available, though how desirable an Irish channel would be in, say, Bulgaria, is moot.

Edit: was replying to ORA in Post 40, but Pineapple Stu nipped in while I was typing!

[Macy]

I'm not a hundred per cent sure of the implication of the EU's Television Without Frontiers directive, but I think it allows for transmission of broadcasts across international borders, so although we're in a small country, there is a European market available, though how desirable an Irish channel would be in, say, Bulgaria, is moot.
Our current commercial operator only gets to 80% of homes on a FTA basis. There's too many costs associated with, for example, going FTA on a Satellite that covers Western Europe, never mind going further.

[mypost]

I've travelled from Bristol to London as well, and can verify the fare he gives (fortunately, I only went one way).

I've travelled regularly in England and Ireland by rail (most recently being last night, when I got the Rosslare Harbour train home from Dún Laoghaire), and trains, in general, aren't dirty here (in fact, they often have staff going through the train picking up rubbish). The trains are spacious, certainly compared to the train I got from London to Holyhead last month

I'm not denying there are problems with British trains, I'm saying that whenever I was on them, there were no problems.

Recently, I got the morning train from Rosslare at Dun Laoghaire, it was full to bursting. I've often travelled on the evening service from Enniscorthy, and there's drinks all over the seats, and commuter newspapers embedded in the floor, 12 hours after they were handed out. Is that clean to you?

It's 4.30 return fare from Connolly to Bray, yet it's 8 Euro return from Connolly to Greystones, a distance of 1 extra stop. It's 70 Euro return Heuston-Cork, yet 32 Euro return Heuston-Westport, despite the Cork train taking considerably less time. Same trains run by the same company. Why?

[pineapple stu]

There are fewer trains going to Greystones because it's single track, and there's considerably more maintenance of the line beyond Bray because - let's be honest here - it's an incredible feat of engineering, and one which has been adjusted only in recent times (five or six years ago?) to allow the DART to go to Greystones - at a cost of installing electric wires along the length of the route. It seems fair to me that those travelling to Greystones (such as myself) pay a bit extra to cover the Greystones-specific costs.

The train I got from London to Holyhead was also full to bursting. There was minimal overhead space for baggage, bugger all leg room even for a small person like me, and only an empty space at one end of the carriage for luggage whereas IÉ provides a separate rack with two or three separate racks and even walls to prevent baggage falling over. The London-Holyhead train* was practically third world compared to any IÉ service I've been on.

The differences between the Cork and Westport prices are - I assume, not being an IÉ employee - down to simple supply and demand. However, both are far cheaper than their equivalent fares in England. This was a point I specifically challenged you on, and yet you ignored it.


* Technically it was the London-Crewe train, because there we had to wait for a connecting train which promtly split in two on arrival - one end heading to Birmingham, one to Holyhead - to everyone's confusion, including the porters.

[Mr A]

On train fares- in the UK they can be outrageous, but if you book in advance you can get them very cheap. For example on a recent holiday my wife, daughter and I were able to travel Edinburgh-Nottingham, Nottingham-London, London-Portsmouth (return) and London-Gatwick for around £120 all in. Admittedly most were not at peak times. The Irish train prices may tend to be somewhat lower (but still mental), but I don't think the ability to make real savings is as consistently available.

Gotta say though that I have usually found IE to be pretty crap.

[Macy]

I think Irish Rail introduced cheaper fares for early booking on intercity routes over the summer (from €10 intercity I think)

On Greystones fares, there's also a large, free park and ride available for the station - parking in Bray is a nightmare (plus in the mornings you have to get through the traffic to the station), last few times during the week I've ended up paying a fiver to park in the Carlisle, so if you drive that pretty much evens things up on that front imo. As well as the work that Stu mentions.

I wouldn't say Irish Rail is perfect. Much like the question of RTE, the real point is whether it would be better privatised. The evidence I would strongly argue suggests otherwise. The examples that are normally held up are nationalised, unionised public transport systems.

[dahamsta]

I've never understood Cork-Dublin tbh, the prices have always been loony-toons. I'd guess at this stage there's a natural bias caused by pure begrudgery. :)

Don't understand the details posted above though. You could pay €72 return, but you could also pay €40 on several trains. Plus the distances seem to be about the same, and the train times take about the same.

(For the record, I wouldn't travel to Dublin by rail, because it's now faster and cheaper to bring my own transport with me. And because of the aforementioned begrudgery. I might change my mind if we had a proper urban transport system though. No matter who operates it, we need to get that sorted sharpish.)

[pineapple stu]

Don't understand the details posted above though. You could pay E72 return, but you could also pay E40 on several trains. Plus the distances seem to be about the same, and the train times take about the same.
Not sure I know what you mean here?

[bennocelt]

I think Irish Rail introduced cheaper fares for early booking on intercity routes over the summer (from €10 intercity I think)



Yeah but not from out of Dublin.