Pope's UK visit

[culloty82]

Can't say I blame people for protesting during the Pope's visit to the UK, but Catholics have better grounds for doing so than Dawkins & Co. The Vatican continues to drag its feet on child sex abuse, with the current focus falling on Belgium and Germany, and it's hardly appropriate to expect each visitor this week to cough up £25 while simultaneously refusing to cough up a cent of its own money to tackle the issue. Perhaps the best signal that could be sent to Rome is if British Catholics boycotted the ceremonies, no notice will be taken otherwise.

[Lionel Ritchie]

A British perspective... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/15/popes-visit-your-essential-guide

[dahamsta]

Delighted to hear of unsold tickets, particularly in light of the news that more than half of their collection of paedos (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/15/paedophile-priests-active-church-role) are still actually priests, despite promises to the contrary.

[hoops1]

Would have loved to have made it over myself, just the way things worked out that I couldnt go. Ah well hopefully a visit here isnt to far off

[centre mid]

Pope Benedict has become the Karl Lagerfeld of the ecclesiastical world: a German-born, white-haired style icon of a certain age.

from here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/15/popes-visit-your-essential-guide)

Hilarious stuff

[OneRedArmy]

Whilst I'm no fan of the global association of kiddie fiddlers (surely you'd struggle to find an organisation that is less christian in its ethos?), I do find it ironic that the Presbyterian and other churches are now protesting the visit only out of sympathy for the way the Catholic Church has treated its flock..... How they can say that with a straight face amazes me.

[John83]

Whilst I'm no fan of the global association of kiddie fiddlers (surely you'd struggle to find an organisation that is less christian in its ethos?), I do find it ironic that the Presbyterian and other churches are now protesting the visit only out of sympathy for the way the Catholic Church has treated its flock..... How they can say that with a straight face amazes me.
In fairness, he did claim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6289014.stm) they're not real churches.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair to the RC Church, child abusers are everywhere.

Whilst their past antics (& those of other strands of Christianity and doubtless other religions) are unforgivable, 80% of this abuse takes place within the members of the immediate family or household,. Which is a relative taboo no-one wants to address.
And leaves this excess of religion far behind.

[micls]

To be fair to the RC Church, child abusers are everywhere.


Yes they are. Most people who claim to be any kind of decent person doesn't cover up what their doing, and facilitate them in raping and abusing more children within their care!!They STILL haven't gotten rid of the child abusers within the church which they claimed they would.

No one thinks it's the churches fault that they're were priests who were child abusers. I do blame them though for creating an atmosphere and protecting them in such a way that the priesthood was a haven for a pedophile and they should all burn in the hell I dont believe in for the suffering they caused the vast vast amount of innocent children who got raped as a result.

[TheBoss]

Can't say I blame people for protesting during the Pope's visit to the UK, but Catholics have better grounds for doing so than Dawkins & Co. The Vatican continues to drag its feet on child sex abuse, with the current focus falling on Belgium and Germany, and it's hardly appropriate to expect each visitor this week to cough up £25 while simultaneously refusing to cough up a cent of its own money to tackle the issue. Perhaps the best signal that could be sent to Rome is if British Catholics boycotted the ceremonies, no notice will be taken otherwise.

That just annoys me, surely the church is about spreading the word of God, and yet people have to pay to hear it, just bamboozling. Its like that tax from roman empire, that you would not go to heaven unless you paid for buildings in the vatican.

[Magicme]

My sister lives in Edinburgh and she was saying that she was going to go throw eggs at him. I went mad at her and told her to cop herself on. Told her not to be stupid, throwing eggs at him. I told her to get some rotten tomatoes instead coz that will stain his white dress and really pee him off.

[Spudulika]

The protestors who are coming out in force (non-Catholics) are the joke of the year. Dawkins and his unlikely lot should just stay home and wait to become humus, the Muslim radicals should be turfed back to Mecca and see how their antics are entertained there, while Paisley - a man who got his collar in a Corn Flakes box (with his own made up church) and a degree from an uncredited and discredited college, a man who saw fit to attack women and children at Burn Tallot Bridge, come on! I just hope the Pope shows the same PR touch he did in recent visits abroad. In Malta he met privately with representatives of victims of clerical abuse (2 men who'd been abused at a church orphanage), listened to them, apologised and put out an order to remove a previous Papal edict barring release of church records. If he did this in the UK it would be a massive coup. I would seriosuly respect the man if he were to come to Ireland, meet privately with abuse victims groups, and I believe you would quickly see a major swing in support for the church. Even as it is, if he were to come to Ireland in a month there'd still be a massive turn out - if the barstoolers did it for Manure, they'd do it for the German Shepherd!

[Mr A]

a man who got his collar in a Corn Flakes box (with his own made up church)

A made up church? They're all made up!

And the funny thing about Paisley is that most of the things he accused the RC church of later turned out to be correct.

[OneRedArmy]

The protestors who are coming out in force (non-Catholics) are the joke of the year. Dawkins and his unlikely lot should just stay home and wait to become humus, the Muslim radicals should be turfed back to Mecca and see how their antics are entertained there, while Paisley - a man who got his collar in a Corn Flakes box (with his own made up church) and a degree from an uncredited and discredited college, a man who saw fit to attack women and children at Burn Tallot Bridge, come on! I just hope the Pope shows the same PR touch he did in recent visits abroad. In Malta he met privately with representatives of victims of clerical abuse (2 men who'd been abused at a church orphanage), listened to them, apologised and put out an order to remove a previous Papal edict barring release of church records. If he did this in the UK it would be a massive coup. I would seriosuly respect the man if he were to come to Ireland, meet privately with abuse victims groups, and I believe you would quickly see a major swing in support for the church. Even as it is, if he were to come to Ireland in a month there'd still be a massive turn out - if the barstoolers did it for Manure, they'd do it for the German Shepherd!You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I'd argue that over the last 5 years Paisley has exhibited many more Christian values that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

Read today's and yesterdays "life values" survey in the Irish Times for a brief taste of public opinion on the Church in Ireland. The Church and its core tenets are becoming increasingly irrelevant in the context of public opionion, values and lifestyle.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The protestors who are coming out in force (non-Catholics) are the joke of the year.
Dawkins and his unlikely lot should just stay home and wait to become humus
That's scarcely fair. It's like being barred from a sci-fi convention for not believing in Star Trek.


I just hope the Pope shows the same PR touch he did in recent visits abroad. Ah yes ...the good ol' PR touch.
Most important to get out the message that you're doing something -regardless of whether you're actually doing something.



In Malta he met privately with representatives of victims of clerical abuse (2 men who'd been abused at a church orphanage),
listened to them, apologised and put out an order to remove a previous Papal edict barring release of church records.

I just want to be sure I'm understanding you properly here - he's to be commended for deciding he and his church were going to cease and desist being frustrative and vexatious towards the local authorities in their efforts to get child molesters before the courts. Boola Bas there Ben.


I would seriosuly respect the man if he were to come to Ireland, meet privately with abuse victims groups, and I believe you would quickly see a major swing in support for the church! What's the fixation with private meetings? (unless it's at the victims' request). What if the victims requested an open forum, let's say another Phoenix Park gig under the JP2 monument, where they could vent their frustrations to and with Il Papa?

[Spudulika]

Lionel, in relation to the meetings, would you prefer a Late Late Show appearance with a hand selected bunch of morons wound up by Tubofcrud? It's a normal for of reconciliation and development in all walks of life, not just in religion, in business, sports etc. As for ordering the local authorities to stop being pedantic and obstructing justice, I'd have thought it deserves at least a commendation, especially as each diocese (not even archdiocese) can control it's own records except if specifically ordered by the Papal authoties to open the books, it cannot be a Papal Bull, missive or letter, it has to be on a piece by piece basis - due to the originally fragmented development of the church. So for him to do so in Ireland would be a massive step - and probably bring some healing to alot of people.

Mr. A - agreed, though Paisley's church is a good gas.

ORA, he is still a bigotted thurd who knows he's getting closer to the fiery pit. His preachings on so many matters are more catholic than the most right wing priest would preach - including railing against single mothers, islam and the evils of "pictures", this is the same man who proudly stated he'd only ever been to one film in his life! Not to slam him for that, but come on, I can just imagine the house of horror stories that will emerge when he kicks the bucket!

[Lionel Ritchie]

As for ordering the local authorities to stop being pedantic and obstructing justice, I'd have thought it deserves at least a commendation, especially as each diocese (not even archdiocese) can control it's own records except if specifically ordered by the Papal authoties to open the books, it cannot be a Papal Bull, missive or letter, it has to be on a piece by piece basis - due to the originally fragmented development of the church. So for him to do so in Ireland would be a massive step - and probably bring some healing to alot of people.! So in summation the church STILL, after all it's been through, adhere's to the 'higher law' claptrap where it's own rules and regulations trump the civil law of the land. Scandalous. I suddenly understand just a little bit why people who scaremonger about the 'islamification of Europe' can get hot and bothered about sharia courts and the like. Sure if we'll tolerate one crowds parallel judiciary why not anyone and everyone elses?


Lionel, in relation to the meetings, would you prefer a Late Late Show appearance with a hand selected bunch of morons wound up by Tubofcrud? It's a normal for of reconciliation and development in all walks of life, not just in religion, in business, sports etc. ! In light of your subsequent explanation that the Roman Catholic Church is actually just a great big Presbyterian church who the Pope apparently can't order to do squat - I'd rather he eased up on the optics, the days of prayer and attonement and whatever other window dressing and just said OKAY -NEW RULE -you give the legitimate forces of law and order wherever you are in the world -EVERYTHING.

[dahamsta]

I have one word for idiot parroters of the "the church is always right" mantra: Galileo.

[Spudulika]

So in summation the church STILL, after all it's been through, adhere's to the 'higher law' claptrap where it's own rules and regulations trump the civil law of the land. Scandalous. I suddenly understand just a little bit why people who scaremonger about the 'islamification of Europe' can get hot and bothered about sharia courts and the like. Sure if we'll tolerate one crowds parallel judiciary why not anyone and everyone elses?

In light of your subsequent explanation that the Roman Catholic Church is actually just a great big Presbyterian church who the Pope apparently can't order to do squat - I'd rather he eased up on the optics, the days of prayer and attonement and whatever other window dressing and just said OKAY -NEW RULE -you give the legitimate forces of law and order wherever you are in the world -EVERYTHING.

I guess you have no fingernails to fight with so best let you get on with it.:yawn: Though you should read texts more carefully and not try to draw deliberately wrong conclusions that best/worst suit your need for adversity.

[Lim till i die]

http://a.yfrog.com/img801/415/l2b.jpg

Made me do a little LOL

[John83]

I just hope the Pope shows the same PR touch he did in recent visits abroad. In Malta he met privately with representatives of victims of clerical abuse (2 men who'd been abused at a church orphanage), listened to them, apologised and put out an order to remove a previous Papal edict barring release of church records.
I'll go with his first instincts as the measure of the man:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection

[osarusan]

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/85155356.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=A7B69CF049AC9005AAB514769EE78015F9C43887BCF63910 9A0485CCC71F383D

These are wooden blocks which people write their wishes/dreams/prayers on and hang on the walls of shrines in Japan.

I remember a few years ago, I was idly looking at some of them when one that was written in English caught my eye. After the normal stuff about wishing that everybody in his/her family would stay healthy and hoping that somebody would pass some exam, the last line was, 'and I hope the current pope dies even quicker than the last one did.'

I wish I'd taken a picture of it.

To make this some way on topic, the best way for the Pope to offer healing would be to take genuine steps to:

a. expose and aid in the investigation (and any subsequent prosecution) of all priests suspected of child abuse.
b. take transparent and concrete steps to ensure that abuse is never systematically allowed (and assisted) to occur again.

Until then, spare me the nonsense about a humble church seeking forgiveness.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I guess you have no fingernails to fight with so best let you get on with it.:yawn: Though you should read texts more carefully and not try to draw deliberately wrong conclusions that best/worst suit your need for adversity.

Not trying to be adverse at all Spudulika. But John83s Guardian link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection)is well worth reproducing and if you've a comment on it let's hear it. Seems while your German Shepherd hasn't the power to compel his underlings to co-operate -as you tell it, he'd no such doubts about his power to compel them to keep their mouths shut -under pain of excommunication no less. Nice. AND he wasn't even Pope then!

This'd make him an accessory after the fact in most civilised countries. Take your pick also from conspiracy, wreckless endangerment of minors, interfering with witnesses...

[Spudulika]

Not trying to be adverse at all Spudulika. But John83s Guardian link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection)is well worth reproducing and if you've a comment on it let's hear it. Seems while your German Shepherd hasn't the power to compel his underlings to co-operate -as you tell it, he'd no such doubts about his power to compel them to keep their mouths shut -under pain of excommunication no less. Nice. AND he wasn't even Pope then!

This'd make him an accessory after the fact in most civilised countries. Take your pick also from conspiracy, wreckless endangerment of minors, interfering with witnesses...

Careful the soapbox doesn't falter under the weight of mighty righteousness - read posts more carefully and you'll see that there has a lot to be made up for by the Pope, and the Guardian report is old news, what counts is what they do - pontificating on what was done wrong is mighty easy, however the steps outlined in Osarusan's post are some I'd already alluded to - removing church protocol and making individuals who have offended liable for prosecution.

[pineapple stu]

however the steps outlined in Osarusan's post are some I'd already alluded to - removing church protocol and making individuals who have offended liable for prosecution.
Have those steps been carried out though? Because if they haven't, the you can't dismiss the Guardian article as "old news".

[Dodge]

pontificating on what was done wrong is mighty easy

Interesting choice of word.

[Spudulika]

Have those steps been carried out though? Because if they haven't, the you can't dismiss the Guardian article as "old news".

Pineapple, it has been debated over and over, it is old news from the point of view that it has been done to death and it will not happen unless driven from the church itself. It will be only change once the head of the church starts doing things that are superficially progressive - this is the ripple of a deeper undercurrent of change that is how the church changes. I was unfortunate in a sense to have taken a masters in Maynooth and as part of the course had to go over church history. Any time something changes in the process or attitude of the church begins as a "p.r." move - from the late 9th century onwards. It will change, though it will be slow and painful.

Dodge, I thought the same thing as I typed it :-)

[dortie]

In fairness, he did claim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6289014.stm) they're not real churches.

And there not, lust and divorce instigating a fat King to initiate their own laws.

[John83]

And there not, lust and divorce instigating a fat King to initiate their own laws.
Yes, because that applies to every Protestant faith and not just the Anglicans. :rolleyes:

[dortie]

Yes, because that applies to every Protestant faith and not just the Anglicans. :rolleyes:

To an extent yes, literally wanting to exert their own interpretation of Christianity. Reformers couldnt even agree with themselves never mind Rome.

[John83]

To an extent yes, literally wanting to exert their own interpretation of Christianity. Reformers couldnt even agree with themselves never mind Rome.
Luther and his followers were excommunicated for disagreeing with church doctrine on the necessity of good works, and modern Lutheranism more closely resembles the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in terms of rites and doctrine than does the Church itself. But yeah, I can see how "lust and divorce instigating a fat King to initiate their own laws" would apply to them "to an extent".

Ignorance is forgiveable. Acting on it is not.