General promotion/media discussion (split from the attendances thread)

[pineapple stu]

In Scotland a few years ago, I thought some new clubs were formed when they expanded to 4 divisions so that more regions would be represented.
No new clubs were formed. Some were elected from the non-league. Problem is here, no clubs really want to step up.

[legendz]

It probably will take time with the A Championship I guess.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, it's starting alright. And it's worth noting that the last time there was a gap in the Scottish Leagues (when Gretna went bang), there were only two or three clubs looking to be elected to Division Three. But forming new clubs isn't the way to go about things. Tralee Dynamoes and FC Carlow and Castlebar Celtic is the way it needs to go - existing clubs with existing structures and existing local links.

[Dodge]

Carlow are a new club. Completely new afaik

Doing things the right way though. Start low and build.

[legendz]

In Munster with Cork, Limerick, Waterford and now Tralee represented, it'd be good to see Clonmel and Ennis join the A Championship. Carlow as said, are a new club. Links can be built and any clubs will need to gain support from their regions if they are to develop.

[pineapple stu]

Carlow are a new club. Completely new afaik
Oh. Was there nothing there before? Was there a SEFC that it grwe out of or something?

[peadar1987]

Eventually I'd love to see clubs from places like Kilkenny, Kildare, Navan, North Tipp (Nenagh/Roscrea), South Tipp (Clonmel), Mullingar, Ennis, and North Cork (Mallow/Mitchelstown) playing in the league. However, if we were to do it now, all that would have been achieved would be to start off several unsustainable clubs that the local population wouldn't particularly want. Before we think about aggressively expanding the league, we have to raise its profile. Clubs not going bust every season would be a start, and then we can think about nationwide promotional campaigns, and upgrading the facilities to something slicker than what we already have. A few seasons of a league with twenty-something sustainable clubs playing in front of decent attendances in clean, non-crumbly grounds, and these regions will want to start entering teams in the league of their own free will.

[Spudulika]

Any proposal put forward here has some or alot of or complete sense, any could work and all are worth a discussion. However I do wonder if what makes us less attractive as a league is the absence of a proper pyramid structure. We can leave the PD and 1st as they are, the A Championship too, but linking up all the leagues and removing the us and them divide is possibly the only way forward - instead of a club having to be elected into the league. I believe everyone who follows or is involved with the LOI has at least once in their lives had to explain to a non-local the fact that we don't have a working pyramid structure. When you look at other countries, small clubs who jumped up the divisions have settled at a level (or gone bust) but it's still a way to, maybe, progress senior football in Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought these comments from former Arsenal defender/Stan cap Joe O'Cearuill were bluntly refreshing about the league. Although I find it funny an English-born Irish player saying he didn't enjoy living in Ireland (then again, plenty of Irish-born Irish people would probably agree right now). Might be rethinking things now he's lining out for the mighty Forest Green, mind.


“I wasn’t happy living in Ireland,” he said. “I didn’t get on with the other players, I had no social life, so it wasn’t the best of times for me. Also I got injured and that didn’t make it easy.

“I wasn’t entirely happy with the standard of the League of Ireland. Bohemians were good, Cork were okay and Derry as well, but the rest were not the best. When Brian Kerr left the club I didn’t fancy it any more. He was very encouraging to me, he had a lot of experience and signed a lot of good players, but we underachieved with what we had.

“I was looking forward to playing in the UEFA Cup and I played well in the game away to Elfsborg. That was good for my confidence, but it’s hard to motivate yourself against the lesser teams away from home, with their poor stadiums and small crowds. The league wasn’t run properly and that wasn’t encouraging for me as a young player trying to make his way in the game. Overall, I was homesick and missed my family and girlfriend, and didn’t play to my potential. I’m disappointed with that. However, I did learn a lot from living on my own.”


http://greenscene.me/2010/09/spotlight-joe-ocearuill/

[legendz]

Eventually I'd love to see clubs from places like Kilkenny, Kildare, Navan, North Tipp (Nenagh/Roscrea), South Tipp (Clonmel), Mullingar, Ennis, and North Cork (Mallow/Mitchelstown) playing in the league. However, if we were to do it now, all that would have been achieved would be to start off several unsustainable clubs that the local population wouldn't particularly want. Before we think about aggressively expanding the league, we have to raise its profile. Clubs not going bust every season would be a start, and then we can think about nationwide promotional campaigns, and upgrading the facilities to something slicker than what we already have. A few seasons of a league with twenty-something sustainable clubs playing in front of decent attendances in clean, non-crumbly grounds, and these regions will want to start entering teams in the league of their own free will.

I wouldn't look at aggressively expanding the league. The A Championship as it is is a good interim league. Like anything, there has to be a long-term goal. It has to be hoped if enough clubs successfully join the A Championship, it could lead to the creation of a Division Two.
I know some people lament the fact that sides face each other 4 times in the Premier but 10-12 professional clubs is the most the league can hope for.

[legendz]

Any proposal put forward here has some or alot of or complete sense, any could work and all are worth a discussion. However I do wonder if what makes us less attractive as a league is the absence of a proper pyramid structure. We can leave the PD and 1st as they are, the A Championship too, but linking up all the leagues and removing the us and them divide is possibly the only way forward - instead of a club having to be elected into the league. I believe everyone who follows or is involved with the LOI has at least once in their lives had to explain to a non-local the fact that we don't have a working pyramid structure. When you look at other countries, small clubs who jumped up the divisions have settled at a level (or gone bust) but it's still a way to, maybe, progress senior football in Ireland.

All clubs are free to join the A Championship. There is no elitism with it just certain criteria which has to be met which is fair enough.
The main thing as I would see it is to get more regions involved in the league. The interest has to be there from the regions really but with the encouragement of the FAI if it is to happen.
As you say, the Premier and First Division are grand as they are really. The development of the A Championship is what needs to be done.

[Spudulika]

I think he's just saying what alot of non-local players would say all over the world, and sometimes it's the inidividual who doesn't click with his surroundings. Plenty of us on here have lived abroad and in some spots have great times and others be miserable, but normally if you make the effort you can get by. The standard of football I'd have thought would have suited him, at least compared to where he is now, though I suppose playing in front of small crowds in less than decent facilities might be a pain.

[Spudulika]

All clubs are free to join the A Championship. There is no elitism with it just certain criteria which has to be met which is fair enough.
The main thing as I would see it is to get more regions involved in the league. The interest has to be there from the regions really but with the encouragement of the FAI if it is to happen.
As you say, the Premier and First Division are grand as they are really. The development of the A Championship is what needs to be done.

Totally agreed legendz, and I didn't mean to make out the A championship was elitist, just that if there was a proper pyramid clubs would know they'll end up there and plan accordingly.

[Schumi]

All clubs are free to join the A Championship. There is no elitism with it just certain criteria which has to be met which is fair enough.

A more formal system of promotion to the A Championship might make it more attractive though. If clubs see an A Championship place as a reward for winning the LSL or whatever other league, they might be better disposed towards taking it than if it's just there as an option for anyone.

[legendz]

There is merit to that but being a member of the league of Ireland requires meeting certain licensing criteria, facilities to a certain level anyway and some kind of youth links. The A Championship is essentially an interim league for aspiring clubs to play on a national level. For that, it will do for it's purpose.

[Spudulika]

I agree with you Legendz, though I think Schumi made my point better than I could. I should just point to our nearest and dearest neighbour (England) and how their pyramid system works. All clubs playing in senior football have to meet certain criteria (this is A-H in terms of facilities) and it covers everything. So clubs can build for promotion to the next level by developing/owning their own ground or simply accepting they are where they are. If clubs in the LSL or MSL knew that by winning the league they would gain promotion to the A Championship, they would then have to plan, not just financially, for a higher level. It would then mean that there would be investment in facilities, which would mean better conditions for fans and players, and possibly more fans. Also it would mean that clubs with strong support bases would have the chance to move up the league ladder and thus there would be greater interest in pushing on. However this leaves a dilemma for Delaney and his cronies, and for current LOI clubs. A club, I'll name Shamrock Rovers from a few years back, might well have tumbled down into the A Championship and had to rebuild from there, or the current Bohs could be dropped a couple of levels and forced to climb back to the Premier. So for some it might be a little scary and cause more reckless spending, though overall it can only serve to increase interest in the game and keep young players in Ireland.

[legendz]

At the end of the day, the A Championship is open to the whole country if anyone can meet the criteria needed. Pyramid structures sound good but in a country as big as England it is far more possible than a country the size of Ireland.
There are a lot if different views on here on how the league can progress. I've learned a a good bit to be honest on other areas and whether football is viable or not in the areas. Some people seem to have a view the number of teams should be reduced, others that it should stay as it is and others, myself included, would like in time to see an expanded league with more regions represented.
A good solution could be a combinations of a lot of these things. At the moment between the 3 tiers, there are 27 clubs. The top tier has to remain a national league but possibly moving forward and with an addition of more clubs, Division One could be split North and South. At that level it should be a help in terms of reducing travels costs for these clubs.

[Spudulika]

Though there is currently no promotion to the A Championship, clubs may apply to the FAI if they wish.

Legendz, this is the blurb (both FAI and wiki) about the situation. And this is a bar for clubs, investors, sponsors and supporters. Not even member clubs trust the FAI to do their job properly, so to be at their mercy is a no go. The size of a nation doesn't matter, it's the ability and interest of the FA that is most important. It suits the FAI to keep it as it is, less hassle for them, more control and easier to manage. If they incorporated a proper pyramid (which already exists but just needs to be fed into the top 3 levels) then we would see a genuine interest in league football in Ireland, clubs appear/re-appear, and young players staying in the country or staying in football. There is no magic bullet to solve our ills - unless this is a JFK style magic bullet and takes out the "leaders" in the FAI, FF and their cronies in one shot. However a good solution to develop football in Ireland would be a proper link up and organisation with the senior leagues.

[legendz]

When the clubs were in charge of the league they did not work to increase the number of clubs. The A Championship has been brought in for a reason, it's a path for clubs to join the league. If you were to go through the process, just as Tralee have done, you will find there is no hindrance. There are certain criteria granted but that's standard for any licence.

[Spudulika]

Legendz I tknow where you're coming from but you're missing the point. When you have to rely on a system like we have now it kills interest in the game, at all levels. If clubs were in a system that they could graduate through there would be alot more energy and impetus to move upwards. True clubs wanted to keep it a closed shop, however the FAI have n such excuse, they CAN open it up if they want to by linking up all the parts of Irish football, as it stands there is no system and no reason for clubs to develop or progess. This is what is killing the game as it leaves it open to abuse and continued alienation from the business community.

[legendz]

Scotland have the same system. There has to be a licensing process. There are Munster Leagues, Leinster Leagues and the Intermediate FAI Cup /Junior FAI Cups for sides to prove their worth. If teams feel they've reached the top at that level, there is nothing stopping them joining the A Championship if the want to.
If either of Carlow, Tralee, Castlebar or Tullamore gain promotion in the next few seasons, it'll be a big boost for the A Championship and should inspire more clubs.

[Spudulika]

You sink your point by using Scotland legendz, which like the English system of old is a completely closed shop. Tokenism is the name of the game there and in Ireland, and while plaudits must go to Carlow, Tralee, Castlebar, Tullamore, Salthill and Mervue, would they be where they are today if there was an actual system of promotion and relegation through connected leagues in a structure that would encourage investment, sponsorship and public interest? Again the main point is, it's fine for the FAI to plamas clubs and hand them a licence, it also does little to develop the game as a whole. However connecting the leagues would inspire clubs, nothing else, especially in Ireland as what have they to aspire to? Right now a club can come from nowhere (ie be set up today), enter directly into the A Championship. Maybe using the US system has it's merits, though there they have structures in place to support the wearker clubs and prevent reckless spending and over dominance of one club/team over the others. Unfortunately it's extremely hard to make that work in a sport like football. Without a connected system of leagues, the game will continue to die on it's back.

[legendz]

To be honest I worry not if my point has sunk. I'm more interested in getting a wide range of views on how the league can progress. Ireland scores better than Scotland though in that we do have an interim league. Have you heard of any side being declined entry to the A Championship. My main point though in referring to Scotland is that as a small country a pyramid system isn't that practical. At least here to elaborate on it, as I say, we do have an interim league.
As far as I know, though each dominated by certain regions, the Leinster, Ulster and Munster Senior League's are not a closed shop. There is nothing stopping sides who get to the top at that left applying to join the A Championship. Seems ok to me for an interim league.
For clubs to join the A Championship, they need to have youth structures in place. For Tralee to join, they did a merger with Kingdom Boy, the most successful school-boy club in Kerry. All this is for the development and better of the game which is what the licence has been about. The licence is to promote and better football and not be a hindrance. Since the A Championship was first mooted as an idea I've been following the bringing of it about.
A lot of intermediate clubs already come from areas well represented, they don't necessarily need another club which is why they are probably ok with the level they are at. If they want to move on up, they only have to apply like Mervue and Salthill etc.

The main thing for the A Championship is to try and attract clubs from new regions and existing regions as well if the interest is there.

[Spudulika]

Legendz, I think what's being done in Tralee is great a flies in the face of what most people think is sensible (I personally was always of the opinion that the first two draws were GAA and basketball, though maybe football can sneak in with solid following), though they will progress I'm sure. However you cannot just plant teams into areas and then see the game flourish. This has happened in Scotland and has caused no end of grief. If we look at size of country, Belgium is alot smaller than Ireland yet the Belgiam provincial sides can all qualify into the upper levels of the league as there is access. Simply telling clubs "Just apply" is not going to encourage the game. I know a little about the impact of a proper pyramid structure from having consulted with a national federation about the same issue. We found that there was a large increase in interest once the structure was established and clubs that had been either dormant, disbanded, playing mini-football or just living on past glories in the lower levels, suddenly saw that they could make a step up. As soon as it was introduced sponsors were gained for leagues all the way down to the lowest country level, crowd numbers increased in all levels below the top flight, while the media took alot more of an interest because there was more to be sold.

Of course this was in a country where there isn't a proper challenge to the supremacy of football (except the stupidity of authorities) though there should be no excuse once a proper structure is in place. If the FAI were brave enough to create a proper promotion relegation structure from top to bottom there would be a geographical spread of teams and up the road in Clare might be challenging Tralee's position!

[legendz]

You make a compelling argument.
At the moment as an interim league, the A Championship is a good league and a gateway to the national league. It's better than having nothing there like before. The FAI website contains links and info at the moment on affiliated leagues.
http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userslist&listid=5&Itemid=82
Maybe they might move in that direction you suggest, linking all district leagues to a provincial Senior League and create a link from there up to the national league or even the A Championship in some way.
If they were to move in that direction, both the pyramid structure and A Championship would be run until a link could be created. Work first on the links between Senior Leagues and district leagues, while still running the A Championship. Once the pyramid is in place between district up to Senior, make the final link to the national league.

Association Football is played more in Kerry than you might think. The Kerry League side that used to get together for the League Cup used to do alright. I have believed for a while Kerry needed a focal point being a club in the league of Ireland to bring the game on further.

[Mr A]

A full pyramid is a long way off. For example in Connacht there is no intermediate league. Meanwhile the Ulster Senior League consists of Donegal clubs and Derry's reserves.

Fully agree though that it would be great to see all levels of football integrated into a big overall structure.

[legendz]

A full pyramid is a long way off. For example in Connacht there is no intermediate league. Meanwhile the Ulster Senior League consists of Donegal clubs and Derry's reserves.

Fully agree though that it would be great to see all levels of football integrated into a big overall structure.

It's because it's a long way off, I haven't considered it. If they were to bring it in though, looking at the district leagues, Leinster have about 14 with Monaghan and Cavan linked in, Munster have 9, Connaught have 4 and then there is Donegal.
Then there are 3 senior leagues already in place. It'll be very complex getting that sorted out and integrated into an agreed pyramid structure.
If Connaught/Ulster was one section, Munster would probably have twice the size and Leinster then would be twice the size of the Munster League to have proper balance and fairness.
The ratio breakdown:
Connaught/Ulster: 1
Munster: 2
Leinster: 4
Total: 7
To get a pyramid structure in place, they'd probably would want it 8 regions feeding into 4. That 4 then would have to feed into 2 with that linking to one being the national league. That's the rough sketch theory of it, putting it into practice would but be a whole different matter altogether. Good luck to the people who do but it would be great in fairness.

[gufcfan]

For example in Connacht there is no intermediate league.
A new Connacht Under 18 league is starting in a few weeks. Galway United are entering and will be managed by Sean Connor. Castlebar Celtic, Mervue United, Galway Hibs and Strand Celtic (Sligo) are some of the other teams I've heard may have entered. I assume Salthill Devon will enter also.

It's not an intermediate league, but hopefully it's a sign that the district leagues realise that the best players and teams need to play at as high a level as possible. The under 18 league in Galway was a joke last season. The premier had 3 teams... The players at that level deserve better. For most young players in Galway, there was nothing to bridge the gap between u-16 and senior soccer.

[legendz]

On reflection on this idea of a pyramid structure, it sounds good but is it practical? The national league is on a different season to the intermediate/junior leagues for a start. Clubs who meet licencing criteria are putting in effort on grounds, youth teams and travel etc. The A Championship as an interim leagues offers clubs a chance to stabilise and develop their structures.
I wouldn't write off a pyramid structure either though. The FAI should work with the provincial FA's in buiding up a pyramid between the district leagues and linking them to the Senior Leagues in the provinces. For clubs who get to the top of their provincial pyramid then, it's down to them it they want to make the step-up to a national league.

[Spudulika]

Thanks for the link legendz, and your breakdown is quite interesting in the numbers. I[d love to post a link to the English FA's downloads (pdf's) on ground regulations etc for each step of the pyramid. In the project company I was involved with we borrowed heavily on this as previously there was nothing proper in place. In fact in some cases blind eyes were turned and one - which we flagged up time and again, resulted in a death. And the local club still haven't properly altered the situation. However we did a very simple thing.
Division 2 (one below top flight) - min. 6,000 (fixed seating on 2 sides totalling 1,500, 500 covered), concrete or maintained standing areas, 8 entry gates, floodlighting 500lux)
Division 3 - min. 5,000 (fixed seating on 1 side min. 800 (500 covered), concrete or maintained areas, 6 entry gates, floodlighting 350 lux)
Division 4 - min. 3,000 (fixed seating on 1 side min. 500 (all covered), concrete or maintained areas, 4 entry gates, flodlighting 350 lux)
Division 5 - County 1 - min. 3,000 (fixed seating on 1 side min. 500, concrete or maintained areas, 4 entry gates, floodlighting 200lux)

Below County 1 there was a simple requirement of having proper changing rooms, function room, standing room on 2 sides and a local police safety certificate - standard for all. The big thing was covered seating, and we were told time and again it would a) bankrupt clubs, b) scare away fans, c) be no good and d) be empty due to higher ticket prices). Likewise with floodlighting. However when the national body adopted the requirements suddenly clubs came up with the money or faced demotion (or prevented from promotion). Importantly with the improvement in facilities and the linked up nature of the football family (which wasn't there previously) clubs who hadn't done anything in a while, mainly because they'd invested in facilities and youth development, started to move upwards as they had the foundations for it. Plus sponsors took an interest as grounds were more vibrant and full. And 2 clubs who really went to town and were far and above the standards on the PA system were (I've not been there for a year but I think the numbers are the same) able to attract enough money and players to leap 2 divisions and now sit in the 2nd.

I'm not suggesting that this can happen immediately in Ireland, though it needs to be set in train. JD has stated over and over that he's a man of the people and loves the little clubs, so let him prove it and bring football in Ireland into a system where forward thinking and planning is rewarded - the A Championship is a half way house, an integrated system is the destination.

[legendz]

Is it a link like this you're looking for?... http://www.thefa.com/Leagues/NationalLeagueSystem/GroundGrading

Interim league or halfway house, it is what the A Championship is but at least it does provide a path to the national league.
In time maybe Ireland can go down that road of a pyramid structure. I'm not sure if they'd switch junior soccer to summer time football. GAA players, your average player now that is, don't get a whole lot of clubs games in the summer due to inter-county action. If the Junior soccer clubs were on summer time, it'd be a bit more attractive during those months, they could also fit in a summer break around June. Who knows what might happen?
I still think the two can exist, as in the current 3 tiered system and a provincial pyramid if introduced. The ground regulations above could be applied within that structure of a provincial pyramid system. It'd be the best place to start as well, sort out the provincial system and if the will is there to link it directly to the national league, complete the link.

[peadar1987]

It would be good if we could stop fighting with the GAA and rugby as well (although we'd have to get rid of parochial/snobbish/disdainful attitudes first)

It'd be nice if all the clubs in a particular area could talk to each other, maybe share some facilities, have combined fitness sessions to save on coaches, organise fundraising together, and liaise with each other to make sure trainings and matches do not clash as far as is possible. It would also help if Irish football did have a more vertically integrated structure, so league schedulling could be arranged better. It'd hurt nobody and help everyone.

[legendz]

Looking at league facing the possibility of having 6 Dublin clubs next season, in away I'd love to see the league expand to 16 clubs. This way the Premier would have more of a spread across the country and clubs will only play each other twice. The number of games would drop 36 to 30 but if the FAI were smart, they could revamp the League Cup for Premier clubs only in groups of 4 clubs home and away adding on 6 games and give a Europa League place to the winner. With two Europa League places going to Cups, a play-off should be played off from 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th for the final Europa League spot.
4 clubs could then be invited from the A Championship to join the 6 left in Division One to make a Division of 10 and a 36 game season.