Hypothetically...

[pineapple stu]

HYPOTHETICALLY, imagine Doolo had buggered off three games earlier than he did. Imagine that under Pete Mahon, we'd have caught up on Derry, survived the play-off and been in the Premier this season. How would we be doing...?

In 16 games under Mahon, our form was fourth in the league. Cork and Bohs appear to be very poor this season. Rovers, Pat's and Derry are average as expected. Dublin City are adrift. Even Longford are struggling, while Waterford and Drogheda are in the European slots - that Drogheda are there indicates how poor the league is this season. Meanwhile, we're starting to destroy some of the teams in the First Division, comprehensively outplayed the favourites and (albeit at this early stage) are on course to register around 100 goals for the season, with the record individual tally for a season under serious threat too - goalscoring is our traditional Achilles heel is the point, not necessarily that we're going to score a ton.

Surely we'd be challenging for the European places?

Is it just coincidence that the :mad: smilie is bald?

[Schumi]

I don't think we're playing any better now than we were at the start of last season. If we were playing in the Premier I think we'd be in the bottom two. In the Galway game we spent the entire first half ar$ing around doing nothing after the goal. Now Galway are $hit so they didn't do anything to take advantage of this but could you see us playing as ineffectively as that against Longford, Cork, Bohs or Derry, never mind the top of the table teams, and not conceding at least two goals? I can't!

So far, we've played one team who weren't utterly useless and we lost to them. We've been scoring goals but surely no one would fail to score goals against the circus act that was the Athlone defence. Galway were no better, I assume Monaghan were $hit as they usually are and Bray couldn't string two passes together all night. The way those games went, it would have been a disgrace not to win all of them.

There's obviously an element of us being dragged down to the level of the opposition but we're not playing that well. We have a stronger team than last season I think but we're not showing it. We'd need to do a good bit better to compete in the Premier, scoring 4 goals against Athlone and Galway doesn't mean anything. We scored 7 against Bluebell in the play-off season but were still $hite in the league. Bottom line, goals against $hit teams doesn't equate to goals against good teams.

Surely we'd be challenging for the European places? You said that last year for god's sake!

Is it just coincidence that the :mad: smilie is bald? Not really, they all are!

[pineapple stu]

But lots of goals against $hit teams might equate to one goal against good teams?

The Premier seems very weak this season as well. Also, don't forget that the form table since Mahon took over - we can certainly play when we have to, and with the team being stronger, there's no reason why the results couldn't be better than in those 16 games.

I think it just annoys me that Drogheda, who were muck for the last 16 games of last season, can actually be top three!

[HarpoJoyce]

Pete Mahon games were during Mid-Season when teams near the bottom are expected to do well against non-motivated mid-table teams.

If Derry City were relegated, but then got the Cat 'A' licence keeping them in the Premier Division. We would have been next on the list to be relegated, provided UCD had already survived the play-off games.

Drogheda are near the top 'cos they give a toss, and playing teams that aren't as comitted.

UCD went down because we didn't solve are probelms early enough, he left in August 2003 (I think).

[CollegeTillIDie]

I have to agree with pineapple stu's hypothesis .
Had Mr Doolin departed a month earlier we would have stayed up.
Pete Mahon's record in charge of us has been fantastic. It is also great to see Pete's son back playing again. I met Paul Doolin by accident on the Dart recently and he conceded that Alan Mahon's injury was a serious problem to deal with last season.

It is also debatable whether Johnny Martin would have left us , if we were still a Premier Division outfit. We have a pair of goalscoring forwards this season for the first time since Mick O'Byrne and Jason Sherlock were fit enough to play together. Because of that we have a lot of targets we can reach not least of which is to secure promotion back to the top flight where let us not forget we lived for 9 seasons.

The way Willie Doyle, Robbie Martin and Pat McWalter are shaping up, Mick O'Byrne's record of 14 League goals in a season is likely to get blown out of the water at least twice.

[pineapple stu]

UCD went down because we didn't solve our problems early enough, he left in August 2003 (I think).

We went down because we couldn't afford to solve our problems... :mad:

Don't know if I agree about the games we played being all against mid-table teams who didn't care. We beat Drogheda and Derry (twice), both of whom were in the relegation battle. We drew away to Cork, Pat's and Shels, all of whom were going for Europe. Considering the morale when he took over, that's a decent achievement. We've got better players now that the scholarship scheme is back up and running. We'd also possibly have the likes of Jennings, Martin and maybe Cawley. And the Premier still looks very weak this season. You can't say Drogheda are playing non-committed teams this early!

[HarpoJoyce]

pineapple stu

Maybe the Cork away result was the only suprisingly pleasing result from that bunch. As I recall you weren't too impressed with UCD after the Pats or Shels game.

We were struggling for a few years losing 3 first teamers a year. We had been going backwards for quite some time.
What would be any different this season if we were in the Premier Division?
Mahon is are manager now because of the apalling start to last season. If we had another struggling season but stayed in touch with the Division, Doolin would have been there til the end, Maybe he would have been offered the Waterford job at the close. But Pete Mahon would be manager of Belgrove and bringing them another lenister league trophy and not with us at the moment.

Let Longford, Waterford and even Drogheda show us how to compete for trophies. We might have learnt something from them if we get a chance to play in the Premier Division again.

I've just read your original thread again. If you get a chance I'd edit it before the end of the season.

[pineapple stu]

I've just read your original thread again. If you get a chance I'd edit it before the end of the season.

Can't be proved wrong before the end of the season - we're not going to be in the Premier then! There's nothing controversial in my original post anyway - our form under Pete Mahon was fourth in the league, with the best defence by a mile. Our goalscoring problems appear to have alleviated this season with Robbie Martin's return to form and Willie Doyle's signing. The Premier appears very weak. Can't argue with that surely?

The Shels game we were lucky, Pat's wasn't great, but those results build up the confidence bit by bit. We were very impressive against the weaker teams (Waterford, Drogheda, Derry), which is usually our Achilles heal.

[HarpoJoyce]

pineapple stu

I agree the Premier Division is vunerable, like every year. ( anti-eircom league fans claim the same, but eircom league fans pretend their attitude doesn't exist).
You never mentioned the fact UCD would be in the Premier Division next season in the original thread. I'm hoping we'll be there if our form continues.

I'm worrried about the 100 goals reference from you and the presumption we'll be somewhere else next season. Our form strikers are competing in the First Division. Everyone is waiting and seeing.

May I ask was it the smilie logo which made you ask the " why is smilie bald question" and create this thread in the first place. Its a cleaver joke and worth the effort if it was.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, the baldy smilie was in my thoughts when I was writing it alright!

I did qualify the 100 goals reference by stating that it wasn't the figure which was important, but the fact that we were scoring far more than usual (even given the fact that we're in the First Division).

Still, having been fourth in the form table under Mahon, with a better team now, it frustrates me that we can't see how well we'd have progressed under Mahon with another season in the Premier.

[Schumi]

even given the fact that we're in the First DivisionBut that's precisely it, just look at Dublin City; win the first division last year, strengthen their squad and are already 4 opints adrift at the bottom of the premier. The first division is $hit!

[UCD_4_Life]

We were struggling for a few years losing 3 first teamers a year. We had been going backwards for quite some time.
What would be any different this season if we were in the Premier Division?

I don't know that I'd agree with that, I thought that 2002/03 was a big leap forward for us, that was the best UCD team I've ever seen. Certainly I'd agree that's what did us in in the end, but we improved that year and were then stripped of some of our best players after the season ended.

As for the original question, I doubt we'd be doing much better at all. Certainly we wouldn't have started on the losing streak that we did last year but we'd still be bottom two or three, I think.

[BobtheDrog]

In defence of drogheda we have strengthened the squad this year and were in training before most other clubs and the last few games last year we played well

[pconnor]

The comment made about the league being weak this year, it must be if Drogheda are in the top 3, is crap. You can't compare the Drogheda team of this year to that of last year. Against Cork last week 6 of the starting 11 were not with the club last year.

[pineapple stu]

The comment made about the league being weak this year, it must be if Drogheda are in the top 3, is crap.

In fairness, that was only one of my points. Bohs, Cork and Pat's are usually among the top teams, but all appear to be much worse than last season. Rovers should be much worse too, but for some reason are doing okay...

I think Dublin City were generally considered one of the weaker teams to win the First in some time, mainly relying on a tight defence. Waterford won it the previous season - look at them now.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Of course the Premier Division is weaker this season.

1/ Waterford have the second worst defensive record in the League
and are in second place in the table.

2/ U.C.D. are not in the League and on current form would be much stronger than Dublin City.

3/ A Liam Coyle less Derry City are minus one magician in their battle against the drop.

4/ Bohs are a lot weaker this season. They shed 4-5 professionals in the close season, not to mention one or two talented youngsters, and when the injuries kicked in found the cupboard threadbare.

5/ Shamrock Rovers are on paper weaker than last year, but it has not manifested itself on grass.

6/ St.Patrick's Athletic's home record is on par with U.C.D's in the first third of last season and we all know where U.C.D. ended up. They are without a doubt weaker. Although Clive Delaney's move to Derry on his recent form seems to have weakened both teams.

7/ Longford , who on paper would be slightly stronger, are only now beginning to show signs of it. Their start to the season was shocking. With the squad they have they should be 2nd or 3rd, no disrespect to Waterford who are on paper weaker than last year, but on grass stronger.

All of which is probably some more examples of why Saint and Greavsie described football as " A funny old game"