View Full Version : Just how low will FF & PDs sink?
Apart from any party loyalties anybody might have, the blatent lies and disgusting hectoring of the present "Government" must surely be approaching the absolute nadir of politics in this country.
Just how far down into the gutter do Ahern and McDowell want to drag us all?
:(
Sheridan
22/04/2004, 5:41 PM
As far as we're willing to go. Which means too far already.
Anyway, off to the match - COME ON CITY!
Maybe they'll just rig the electronic voting?
Anyone catch the recent news of hidden report on large mismatches in the number of votes recorded electronically by paper in the last General Election? Sounded like 10% of votes...
:eek:
brendy_éire
22/04/2004, 9:08 PM
Just how far down into the gutter do Ahern and McDowell want to drag us all?
As far as the system (and the people of this country) will allow them to. Which seems quite far indeed.
A face
23/04/2004, 12:35 AM
As far as the system (and the people of this country) will allow them to. Which seems quite far indeed.
I think people dont realise how bad it is and just put up with it. People dont have anything to compare it to and aswell as that ... people just dont have time to give it any thought so the party of the day just give it some convoluted speil and clean up around the edges and then get away with it.
dahamsta
23/04/2004, 8:38 AM
Politicans were up to their eyes in corruption.
Some things never change. :)
Oh yeah? You just try bribing one these days, they run a mile. Maybe THAT'S what's wrong with the country... :) :)
From what I hear bribes are out now with "favours" more popular.
I still cannot believe how Bertie has managed to avoid investigation yet given he was the man signing the cheques in the 80's & almost every senior FF politician that surrounded him then has been shown or alleged to be corrupt.
Still if as they say we get the government you deserve cos we (collective) elect them.
:(
Sure it must be as good as it can get, it's better than the 1980's.... Thanks for that Conor, all is forgiven - we should throw a big party in Punchestown...
dahamsta
23/04/2004, 9:50 AM
Oh yeah? You just try bribing one these days, they run a mile.
You have personal experience with this Conor? ;)
liamon
23/04/2004, 10:49 AM
I have to agree with patsh. Our political leadership are the worst in the world.
Why can't we have someone decent like Tony Blair (labour leader who introduces education fees and leads country into non-justifiable war), GW Bush (need I say more?), Berlusconi (Mr. Honesty), etc.
Face it, politicians leave a lot to be desired all over the world. And if you don't like the current crop, then get out and vote for an alternative.
brendy_éire can give you some direction on alternatives. ;) :rolleyes:
A face
23/04/2004, 12:48 PM
I'll be travelling up to the game tonight. And if I don't see over 1,000 houses in the course of construction you're cordially invited to watch me eat my hat in the Horseshoe.
Did you see Prime Time the other night ..... Seems a percentage of those houses will be built but the buyers cant afford them. The Irish public are now meant to be living out way beyond their means, and it ain't all by choice, but thats the publics fault.
Start taxin' that horsey crowd too i'd say .... stupid money being made there and it is all good for the boys. It is like Columbia but not as much cocaine !!
patsh
23/04/2004, 12:58 PM
Come on, you can do much better than that.
Okay, I'll start you off. The 80s. The economy stank. The masses fled abroad. The health system was shattered. Teachers went on strike weekly. The national debt were the buzz words. Politicans were up to their eyes in corruption. Factory closures didn't even make the news, while child deaths in Kerry and Offaly dominated as the Catholic Church still flexed its muscles.
Does ANYONE remember that decade?
:rolleyes:
I remember it well. I was on the streets of this country with thousands of others pleading for a fair taxation system, a fair health system and a fair housing system.
Meanwhile, in the few chic resturants and hotels of this country, but mostly the incredibly expensive establishments of France and elsewhere, emperor Haughey was laughing at us and how easy it was to fleece the plebs by the simple device of turning Ireland into his own tuppeny happeny banana fiefdom. Were you bringing up the 80s to show us another time when FF dragged us so far down ?
Typical FFer, the few years FG/Labour spent in Government are to blame for everything. The fact that Lynch & Co pretty much bankrupted the country is filed with all the other items in the FF amnesia closet.
But back to today.
Lets ignore the corrupt way that McCreevy gets personal projects built in his constituency. Lets ignore that FF treat the civil service of this country as its personal sectratarial service, (a common feature of the old totalitarian regimes in Eastern Europe). Lets forget that so many members of the FF party daily traipse up to all the tribunals to show just how corrupt and slimey they really are.
FF and you Conor would claim that m,ost FF members are ordinary decent citizens.
The question for the present is why are these FF members allowing a few extremists to treat the Constitution, written by FF's greatest hero, as just something to be used to grab a few votes?
Where are the "decent" voices in FF protesting at the foisting of a racially motivated, utterly needless referendum?
Is nothing of enough sacred value anymore than it cannot be sacrificed on the altar of FF's political expediency?
Just how low are they prepared to sink to get a vote?
Face it, politicians leave a lot to be desired all over the world. And if you don't like the current crop, then get out and vote for an alternative.
brendy_éire can give you some direction on alternatives. ;) :rolleyes:
I'm not concerned with the other creeps you mentioned.
I'm posting to see if there is anyone else out there who is just as sickened, disgusted and weary of how nasty, greedy and awful the current goverrnment is, and how they have changed a society into an economy.
the 12 th man
23/04/2004, 1:03 PM
brendy_éire can give you some direction on alternatives. ;) :rolleyes:
are you out of your vulcan mind ?? :eek:
we've never had it so good. Yes we can all cite anecdotal evidence, and go on about the horsey set as if they are the cause of real hardship, but our economy is still held up as an example to the rest of the world.
Thats my whole point, Conor. There is far more to a country than an economy. But the PD's and McCreevy have dumped all pretence at society here and hammered us with the message that all that matters is an economy. All FF politics is based on the economy.
As for the referendum, the opposition keep talking about the motivation and the timing. You may have misgivings about those aspects, I won't criticise that aspect of your argument as it has validity, but noone has yet raised a convincing argument as to why the thrust of the proposal itself is wrong.
Labour and the Greens (and SF?) are against the substantive issue. So are many in FG, even a few lone dissenters in FF. If you were reading the Times during the week, you would have read very persuasive and convincing arguments why a referendum is wrong.
Everyone would have preferred more time, perhaps the Presidential election would have been a better time, but I've never seen so much furore over the date of an election. Could it make up for a lack of a basic counterargument?
If EVERYONE would have preferred more time, why the rush?
You suspect, though I doubt you'll admit it that, like most other people that the reason the date was picked was to use a highly contentious and divisive issue to stir up the latent racism in a lot of Irish people.
Not only are we out of step with almost all of the Western World, it has now reached the stage where other countries are facing proceedings because they are seeking to deport non-EU members who have had children in Ireland. Not only is it right that we correct this huge anamoly, it has now become a legal imperative.
"A LEGAL IMPERATIVE". Your words. Why not deal with it with legislation so?
Why must we change one of the most fundamental articles of our Constitution?
Issues like children born to diplomats have been dealt with by legislation.
Insist that airlines refuse passage to heavily pregnant women.
I do not agree with the politics of Martin or Dempsey, or the way they can be loose with the truth when it suits them. However, I do believe that those two Ministers at least still believe in some sort of society, are probably decent men who would try to do the right thing and who seem to have some cognisance of the old FF ideal of a party for everyone.
Yet they are called out to defend the indefensible and the increasingly strident hectoring of McDowell as well as his constantly changing basis as to why this is so urgent, and they do so without demur.
Why will none of them take a step back and realise this is much more important than any party politics?
There are many ways of solving this "problem".
Why go down the road of what should be the absolute last resort for legislators?
When is someone in FF going to stand up to McDowell and reign in his extremism?
Things have come to a pretty pass when I'm having to look to FF for relief... :(
brendy_éire
23/04/2004, 2:25 PM
brendy_éire can give you some direction on alternatives. ;) :rolleyes:
With pleasure! :D
I'm posting to see if there is anyone else out there who is just as sickened, disgusted and weary of how nasty, greedy and awful the current goverrnment is, and how they have changed a society into an economy.
No matter who the government is, it is always going to be 'nasty, greedy and awful'. Our system of government doesn't provide the conditions for a decent, honest government. The Dáil is controlled by corrupt individuals, motivated by personal gain, who, on the whole, don't particularly care about the pulblic, so long as they retain their power and privledge.
We will never have a good government under capitalism. Get used to it! Things aren't going to change. We can whinge all we want, we can vote FG instead of FF, but things will not change under the present system.
An alternative, I hear you ask. Those in government will always be corrupt and look after your own interests. So get rid of the current system of government and replace it with something better. A system which gives everyone a direct say in how the country is run. Communism. Abolish the Dáil and the trappings of the present state. The creation of workers soviets in every workplace to decide what to produce, how much to produce, and the logistics of its distribution, storage, etc, would provide a viable alternative. No-one could use power for their own gains as there would be no pratical way of doing this (That is, no 'state' (in the current sense of the word) with which to exercise an individual's power). With the population of the country working together, instead of competing amongest ourselves as we currently do, productivity would rise. Living standards would then rise, creating a more prosperous, equitable society.
This change will not come from above, we can't rely on the good will of our present rulers. Change will only come from the grassroots up. Unfortunately however, there doesn't seem to much stomach for any such change among the masses in today's society.
So, basically, for the time being, we're stuck with what we've got. Ye can choose one corrupt party over another, but things won't change. If you accept capitalism, then shut up and accept crap government. The two go hand in hand.
Plastic Paddy
23/04/2004, 2:52 PM
So, basically, for the time being, we're stuck with what we've got. Ye can choose one corrupt party over another, but things won't change. If you accept capitalism, then shut up and accept crap government. The two go hand in hand.
Ahh, Brendy, the vim and vigour of youth. Crap government is crap government, mucker, irrespective of political leaning. Uncle Joe, from whom you quote, was famous for five-year plans that led to millions of people starving. Never mind the twenty-or-so million that he and his administration murdered. And yet the Party apparatchiks and nomenklatura still enjoyed their Crimean dachas. Some communism, huh?
I know what you're saying, but never, ever underestimate the ability of people to crap all over each other in the pursuit of greed and personal gain. Whatever political system you subscribe to. Humanity is just not capable of ascending the heights that such advanced systems demand. Sorry to pee on your bonfire and all that, but plus ca change, plus c’est la même chose...
:) PP
the 12 th man
23/04/2004, 2:58 PM
plus ca change, plus c’est la même chose...
:) PP
as old sage would say:tout est bien,de fine bien.cest lavie :D
Its haldly FFs fault that there is no crediable opposition in this country.
FG? Most people just see them as Tesco Brand-FF anyway. A bad attempt at a copy.
SF? I dont think the Irish people would be over the moon with a SF Minister in charge of the Gardaí. Imagne the new training in Templemore. "Now lads, as we always say the best way to stop crime is to prevent it....with a baseball bat to the knee cap."
Labour seem the only ones who would be up to it but they still cant decide if they are socalist anymore. Then in a move that reminds me of Bohs casuals bringing their English hoolies over to fight the Rovers Casuals, they bring Robin Cooke over to their conference.
Then the whole democracy thing of the Irish people voting for FF Governments all the time.....but sure why let that ruin a good thread.
Thank God you're here SÓC, grab a gun and cover the left...and don't let 'em flank us...
We dont need to cover the left Conor, sure we're already left of centre. Dont you listen to (future) Taoiseach Martin?
:D
and as for guns.....not us who has em ;)
Plastic Paddy
23/04/2004, 3:56 PM
Not 'plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme', non... :confused:
No, 'tis as I had it Conor... "the more things change, the more they stay the same". Unfortunately.
:( PP
brendy_éire
23/04/2004, 3:59 PM
Ahh, Brendy, the vim and vigour of youth. Crap government is crap government, mucker, irrespective of political leaning. Uncle Joe, from whom you quote, was famous for five-year plans that led to millions of people starving. Never mind the twenty-or-so million that he and his administration murdered. And yet the Party apparatchiks and nomenklatura still enjoyed their Crimean dachas. Some communism, huh?
Yep, totally agree. Stalin was a nutcase (quite literally), should have received treatment for his paranoia. Didn't agree with his 'socialism in one country' idea either. Stalin was no Communist. I quote him only cos he did come out with some quality quotes. ("One death is a tradgey, a million a statistic" - Feckin genius hi!)
I know what you're saying, but never, ever underestimate the ability of people to crap all over each other in the pursuit of greed and personal gain. Whatever political system you subscribe to. Humanity is just not capable of ascending the heights that such advanced systems demand.
There will always be capitalists who will wish to make profit for themselves, but take away the mechanisms that currently allow them to do so, and you can solve the problem.
Humanity can, and ultimately will, ascend to the heights asked of us in Communism. We can evolve beyond our greed and selfishness. Haven't we managed, on the whole, to evolve past our desire to kill each other over petty squables? As animals, we have it in our instinct to kill anyone we don't like. But we've learned restraint and respect for rules of society. The same can be achieved with regard to greed and selfishness. Not saying it will be easy, but it will be achieved.
Its haldly FFs fault that there is no crediable opposition in this country.
FF should be the opposition!
A few posters have pointed out that we get the government we elect.
Well how many have voted for the PDs?
No matter what anyone says, the government is being run by the PDs, implementing PD policies and following a PD agenda.
This shower gained less than 8% of the votes of the electorate. 92 people out every 100 that voted did not vote for them.
Ireland has been taken over by extremists from a tiny minority party, and FF, being the party in the position to do something about it, are doing nothing to stop them.
I accept the majority wish of the people, but I do not have to accept the destruction of my country by a tiny number of idealogues.
No matter what anyone says, the government is being run by the PDs, implementing PD policies and following a PD agenda.
This shower gained less than 8% of the votes of the electorate. Ireland has been taken over by extremists from a tiny minority party, and FF, being the party in the position to do something about it, are doing nothing to stop them.
You sound like FF'er on election day. Anything bad the government do will always be blamed on the PDs...
:rolleyes:
You sound like FF'er on election day. Anything bad the government do will always be blamed on the PDs...
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: yourself.... :rolleyes:
The PDs, a tiny party with a tiny vote, are setting the agenda for this government. FF are to blame for allowing this. There are two of them in it and between them they are dragging us deeper and deeper into the mire.
If you cannot see anything wrong with debasing our Constitution to get votes, then it proves my point that FF/PD politics have debased us all.
As for Patsh argument about how many voting for the PDs, that's the nature of the beast. Labour (my bete noire!) have been in many governments yet struggle to get somewhere around a fifth of the vote.
And do you think FF, the party with 40%ish of the vote, should allow the party with 6% dictate to them?
Just because Ahern will do anything at all to hang to his office, surely there are some in his party who feel this is wrong?
btw, 22% of the vote is a sizeable vote for any party and makes Labour a major force in this state for as long as it has existed. 6% (what the PDs actually got) is less than the ragbag of independants, who get elected on whatever issue is annoying the locals.
brendy_éire
23/04/2004, 4:48 PM
Think I've made this point before.
Isn't it very conveniant for you to say that communism didn't work in practice because it's most famous (alleged) exponent was not a true Communist? I mean, a capitalist could argue that capitalism hasn't worked because there has been no true capitalist...but it's a great idea on paper.
Fair play to you for having an opinion, I'd much rather that then apathy. But I don't know if you can be so dismissive of the extremes of leaders like Stalin (and presumably Ceacescu and Tito and other tyrants) and deny that they are communist related excesses, yet point to problems in the Western World and argue that they are definitely the marks of capitalism rather than personality related.
I may be convenient, but it's also true. Stalin was not a Communist. Neither were any other leaders of so-called 'Communist' states. If these states truly were Communist, you would never have heard of Stalin, Tito, et al. In a truly Communist society there are no leaders.
Pure capitalism simply cannot be attempted, as it would never work. True capitalism would mean no taxation, thus no public services (that includes police, roads, street lighting, maintance of parks, etc). True capitalism would be unworkable, which is why capitalists don't attempt it.
I don't blame all problems of the capitalist world on capitalism, just a lot of them. Capitalism teaches us to be selfish, greedy, always asking "what's in it for me?". Capitalism allows for rulers and the ruled to emerge. This in turn creates many of the problems associated with capitalist states. Rulers will always be corrupt, which is why I think we need rid of them altogether.
brendy_éire
23/04/2004, 10:48 PM
A mere coincidence that I was born in 1986? I think not. :)
And ye know, the economic growth of the past decade or so isn't all down to the government in charge. There are many, many factors, including the global economic climate, economics conditions in the US (where much of the investment has come from), and of course, the role of the EU and the time taken for its measures to kick in.
A few interesting facts some here would do well to be reminded of.
1986:
1. Unemployment 20%
2. Standard Income tax rate of 28%
3. 50,000 people emigrated to all parts of the globe in the search of a job.
4. The IMF were on the brink of forclosing on Ireland inc thanks to the Governments Tax and spend disaster policies.
5. LABOUR WERE IN GOVERNMENT ! ! !
Of course coveniently forgetting that it was the policies of Jack Lynch and Martin O'Donoghue and their famous election stunts of 1979 that had brought us to this situation.
If you are going to post something, at least get some basic facts right... :rolleyes:
Wait a sec Patsh. 8% voted for the PDs. The other 92% had the clear choice of voting to elect a FF/PD or rainbow Government. A vote for Pd/FF is a defacto vote for a PD/FF government, the PDs played their cards very well, appointing themselves the FF watchdogs.The people of Ireland elected a FF/PD government. That my friend is a simple fact.
To say that the Government only put forward PD policies is a load of nonsense. If that was the case we'd have one rate of tax, f-all social welfare and tax breaks for the super-rich. In fact the only areas where the PDs really made any noise were National Stadium and Dual Mandate.
patsh
25/04/2004, 11:07 AM
Wait a sec Patsh. 8% voted for the PDs. The other 92% had the clear choice of voting to elect a FF/PD or rainbow Government. A vote for Pd/FF is a defacto vote for a PD/FF government, the PDs played their cards very well, appointing themselves the FF watchdogs.The people of Ireland elected a FF/PD government. That my friend is a simple fact.
I'm not sure how good you are on maths or statistics, but 6 - 8% is a very small minority vote.
If you truly wanted an FF/PD government, why not a 50/50 split, or 60/40 or even 70/30 ?
The simple fact, my friend, is that a tiny minority of people in this country vote for the PDs.
Yet FF have let themselves be dictated to by this little group of extremists.
To say that the Government only put forward PD policies is a load of nonsense. If that was the case we'd have one rate of tax, f-all social welfare and tax breaks for the super-rich. In fact the only areas where the PDs really made any noise were National Stadium and Dual Mandate.
The smoking ban seems to be the one piece of FF legislation, EVERYTHING else is PD inspired or leaning towards their policies.
The 16 social welfare cuts, the continued tax breaks for the wealthy etc. etc.
All FF are coming up with are stunts like "de-centralisation".
Patsh firstly excuse the tone of my last post, twasnt the sober hour;)
The whole point of what I was saying is yes 8% is a small minority but the other 92% of people who were not going to vote PDs were left with a clear choice, FF(and thus FF/PD Government) or Rainbow Government. The Irish people decided on a PD/FF government. Things like PR and vote management came into it but then again if there was no PR we'd just have huge FF majorities all the time.
As for policies, FF IMO have played the PDs. Anything unpopular get loaded as a PD decision but FF are always seen as behind popular policies like the SSIA's, peno points, smoking ban and the likes. A fair trade off if the PDs get their way now and again.
Plastic Paddy
26/04/2004, 12:44 PM
Which of my facts were incorrect then? If labour get back in it will be high tax high spend lunacy all over again. Perish the tought...
Most unlikely. Whichever party gets in will be bound by fiscal policies put in place by the European Central Bank. "Harmonisation" is already ensuring that indirect taxes, such as VAT, can only be set domestically within prescribed bands. It won't be long before this spreads to all forms of public revenue procuration.
BTW Silvio, the Conservatives in the UK are looking for good ad campaign ideas for the upcoming round of elections (see this (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/conservatives/story/0,9061,1202223,00.html) from the Guardian last week). I think your hyperbole is just the kind of thing they're after... ;)
:D PP
liamon
26/04/2004, 1:03 PM
Most unlikely. Whichever party gets in will be bound by fiscal policies put in place by the European Central Bank. "Harmonisation" is already ensuring that indirect taxes, such as VAT, can only be set domestically within prescribed bands. It won't be long before this spreads to all forms of public revenue procuration.
PP
Yes, but the EU is pushing for tax harmonisation in general. Basically, that would see a rise in the taxes we pay to a level closer to the EU average. Not something I (or the PDs) fancy.
The low corpoate tax is also something I approve of, as it encourages industry to locate here. (My job wouldn't exist without this tax break). The EU isn't happy about this policy at all and would like us to increase it substantially.
The low corp tax rate was working fine, so why continue to lower it again like McCreevy did. It was already one of the lowest.
On personal tax, I take issue with the fact that the top rate of tax has come down so low - to benefit the most people the way to go would've been to increase the bands (taking the minimum wage out of the tax net for starters, and that you start to pay the top rate of tax at a higher salary). The average industrial wage should not be in the highest tax rate.
Income tax is the most equitable way of collecting taxes since by definition the more you earn, the more you pay. This Government has, and continues to do, go down the regressive tax route, through VAT and Service Charges, which clearly isn't equitable. Just because you have more money in your pay packet come pay day, doesn't mean you aren't paying as much as before in tax once you take into account indirect taxes and service charges.
The Governments continued failure to tackle the development issue is also effecting the money in your pocket, through either rent or mortgage payments. There is enough land zoned for housing in this country, in particular around Dublin, that developers are happy to sit on and the Government are happy to let them do so without penalty (while more and more land gets zoned for housing supposedly to increase supply).
But sure, isn't it great that we're paying less income tax, go on FF/PD! :rolleyes:
liamon
26/04/2004, 4:41 PM
Macy, I agree with nearly all of that. Corporation tax is the lowest in the EU, but it's only a matter of weeks before low cost/low tax regimes from Eastern Europe join and we need to stay competitive.
I was just pointing out that the EU is pushing for higher taxes within Ireland. I don't want to see that happen.
I was just pointing out that the EU is pushing for higher taxes within Ireland. I don't want to see that happen.
Why not?
Don't you want good roads, a health service, the streets swept, libraries maintained, old people looked after, community services maintained etc. etc. etc.....?????
Or is it a case of you feel it's your money, so everyone else can f off?
As more and more people realise that this disgusting referendum is a purely cynical attempt to get votes by raising rascist concerns, the more likely it seems that it will be overwhelmingly passed.
I hope all you FFers are proud of yourselves.... :mad:
liamon
10/05/2004, 8:43 AM
Why not?
Don't you want good roads, a health service, the streets swept, libraries maintained, old people looked after, community services maintained etc. etc. etc.....?????
Or is it a case of you feel it's your money, so everyone else can f off?
Yup, that's pretty much it. I work hard for my cash and it's mine. My precious.
I have no problem paying my current level of taxes. I'm just not convinced that throwing extra money into the civil service, etc. will solve anything.
At least if it's my cash I can go out and pay for the services that I use. Very capitalist way of thinking, isn't it? But that’s what the people voted for when they elected FF/PD governments. And that's how I feel. Should I go and hang my head in shame?
Basically, I wouldn't mind taxes even increasing a little. What I don't want is a European socialist system where people pay huge amounts of taxes and the government provides everything. Basically, I don't trust them. Too inefficient. Too much bureaucracy. At the same time, I don't want a US system where you lose your job and end up on the street freezing to death.
I think we have a nice enough balance at present, though maybe a slight tax increase would be justified in order to provide some extra services to the disadvantaged.
You have had tax increases Liamon - the tax credits and bands didn't increase with inflation. This Government is more concerned about helping it's mates in the business community, than the larger community. If you're right wing and that's the policies you support than fine - that's not the same as the avid FF's here claiming they're left of centre. Fair play for your honesty Tory Boy ;)
liamon
10/05/2004, 10:01 AM
You have had tax increases Liamon - the tax credits and bands didn't increase with inflation. This Government is more concerned about helping it's mates in the business community, than the larger community. If you're right wing and that's the policies you support than fine - that's not the same as the avid FF's here claiming they're left of centre. Fair play for your honesty Tory Boy ;)
Are the Tory party right wing? I thought Labour were the right wing party in the UK? ;)
Anyway, I have a huge dislike for FF and their inherent greed and power hunger, but I do support the Fiscal policy ideology of low tax/low spend to a certain degree.
Dilemma - do I
(a) vote FF/PD given my hatred of FF's brown envelope culture?
(b) vote FG/Labour and watch taxes rise and civil servants waste cash?
At this stage, I'm not convinced FF can control spending and I'm disgusted at the way they run this country....Punchestown, etc. So, I'm actually going to vote FG/Labour in the upcoming elections. Never thought I'd do that.
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