View Full Version : Consitency of Referees
City Hero
17/04/2004, 5:23 PM
With the kind of football that we have seen from Waterford & Longford against City, and from Waterford against St Pats last night (ie fouling & kicking their way through the match), How do you think the referees have performed this season.
As far as I know, Digger's sending off for Longford during the week and El Khabir for Pats against City have been the only red cards in the Premier Division so far this season. I am open to correction on this.
But last night in the first division, there were 3 or 4 red cards. I know the first division is a different standard/type of game, & some people will say that it's a mans sport/sour grapes and all the usual excuses, but nobody can argue that for all the hard football that some teams play / all the hard tackles that we have seen / all the yellow cards (it must be over 20 for City's opponents from 6 games), that 2 red card (if I'm right) from 7 series of games (after Derry V City tonight), thats a total of 35 games - over 3000 minutes of football, is a bit out of proportion.
Unless I have missed a couple of red cards or the league is a lot cleaner than it appears.
don't forget pat dolan.
:) ;)
Éanna
19/04/2004, 12:52 PM
The standard of refereeing has not improved over the last 5 or 6 years, whereas the standard of football has. Basically it echoes what Pat Fenlon said- the clubs are moving forward on and off the pitch, while the FAI are doing nothing: that applies to the administrative side of things just as much as the refereeing side. Referees like Stokes, O'Neill, the McKeons, Buttimer and Deady are power hungry little cretins who get a buzz out of the fact that they ref to a standard which in any other country would mean them reffing U-8 reserve games, but here it gets them in the papers and on the telly. It has to be addressed. As I've said many times, the real culprits here are the likes of Pat Kelly and the other assessors who are letting these fools get away with wrecking matches for the spectators. Shelbourne have been very successful in recent years, and Pats were successful before them- both very physical teams who were capable of playing nice football but seemed more determined to kick the opposition to pieces first: a sort of "if we kick them hard enough, they'll be afraid to play" attitude. It has been successful because it has been allowed to be sucessful. If we really want to get people in the gates of our grounds we have to give the George o'Callaghans, the Wes Hoolahans, the Bobby Ryans of this league more protection from ****-kicking savages like Owen Heary, Jim Gannon and Waterford United. Otherwise these players won't want to play here and the fans won't want to see their replacements.
Éanna
19/04/2004, 12:54 PM
MOVED THREAD TO EL GENERAL FORUM FROM CORK CITY FORUM
Éanna
cityrebel1
19/04/2004, 1:00 PM
is there anything we can do about it ,
any postal address , email address we can send complaints???
Dunno about that. Maybe an idea would be for supporters clubs/ fan groups to try and get the assesors to speak to the fans- for example a meeting with Pat Kelly, where he explained the criteria under which he assesses a referees performance- then fans could understand the situation better. Dialogue is the only way to do anything about it. I have tried speaking to one or two of them in the past and I have to say I was not impressed by their attitude- I wouldn't say I was too calm on those occasions either though. So maybe the solution is to have a meeting away from a matchday when emotions aren't running so high.
You know things are bad when you start thinknig to yoyrself "that shouldnt have been a free to my team".
With O'Neill you get frees you shouldnt have got and you dont get frees you should have got.
My heart always sinks when i see him running on to the pitch.
Eanna,
how do YOU suggest we change the standards of refereeing in this country?
There's no easy answer ref. All I do know is that us roaring abuse at refs and refs going home determined to **** us off (deny it if you want, but I believe some of them do) is not geting us anywhere. At least if fans sat down and talked to these guys there's a chance we might get somewhere. I don't know- is it possible to make a crap ref a good ref? Being honest I'm not sure it is- I think its a thing that comes naturally to some and not to others. Its like players, managers etc. Some have more skill than others. What I DO know is that the current situation is getting us nowhere.
refs going home determined to **** us off (deny it if you want, but I believe some of them do)
:)
I don't know- is it possible to make a crap ref a good ref? Being honest I'm not sure it is- I think its a thing that comes naturally to some and not to others. Its like players, managers etc. Some have more skill than others. What I DO know is that the current situation is getting us nowhere.
From next season all new referees promoted to the eL panel will first have to qualify from the FAI Referees School of Excellence. This is a 2 year programme involvoing continuous assessment at local level, numerous workshops and lectures, and continuous physical assessments.
A number of referees on the panel have already passed through the School, for example, Alan Kelly and Ian Stokes.
Seven referees from the last class from the School were promoted to the eL.
Alan Kelly is by far the best referee in the country. He never gets any Cork City games because he is from Cork and please don't tell me that has nothing to do with it. But when we play Dublin teams there is always the chnace the referee is from Dublin. That's something that always baffles me.
Would Alan Kelly have refereed the Cup final last year if Cork City were in the final?? I doubt it somehow.
45% of the eL referees panel is from Dublin, chances of getting a referee from Dublin obviously fairly high.
drinkfeckarse
19/04/2004, 3:08 PM
What the el and every other league for that matter needs is referees who have played the game. They wouldn't generally have to be ex pro's or semi-pro's, just people who have played at a half decent level. At least that way, you would then have referee's who know what it's like to go for a 50/50 challenge and don't treat you like a naughty schoolboy when they speak to you. Most referees I know are the headmaster type who still live at home with Mammy and Daddy and wouldn't know common sense if it came up and bit them on the arse.
From next season all new referees promoted to the eL panel will first have to qualify from the FAI Referees School of Excellence. This is a 2 year programme involvoing continuous assessment at local level, numerous workshops and lectures, and continuous physical assessments.
A number of referees on the panel have already passed through the School, for example, Alan Kelly and Ian Stokes.
Seven referees from the last class from the School were promoted to the eL.
If Ian Stokes qualified from it then its worth nothing. The guy is terrible. I'm all in favour of setting up Schools of Excellence, but if people like him can get through them- whats the point. It only serves to re-emphasise what I already said. Unless the FAI (i.e. the assessors) are prepared to get tough and only accept a decent standard of refereeing, we'll get nowhere.
Alan Kelly is by far the best referee in the country. He never gets any Cork City games because he is from Cork and please don't tell me that has nothing to do with it. But when we play Dublin teams there is always the chnace the referee is from Dublin. That's something that always baffles me.
Would Alan Kelly have refereed the Cup final last year if Cork City were in the final?? I doubt it somehow.
I wouldn't want Kelly reffing us. He's a damn good referee, but any time he has reffed City matches, he has sent Dolan off!!!!! We have to face facts- we will get Dublin refs against Dublin teams. Some of them are good some bad. If the ref is a good ref, it won't make a difference where he's from. Having a Cork ref would only give Dub teams an excuse to claim bias. At least in Dublin they can claim the ref might support one of the other Dub teams, whereas we don't have that situation.
If Ian Stokes qualified from it then its worth nothing. The guy is terrible. I'm all in favour of setting up Schools of Excellence, but if people like him can get through them- whats the point. It only serves to re-emphasise what I already said. Unless the FAI (i.e. the assessors) are prepared to get tough and only accept a decent standard of refereeing, we'll get nowhere.
Ian Stokes was nominated by the FAI for a FIFA Referee badge last year and was independently assessed by UEFA observers from different countries on numerous occassions.
No matter what you may think and what you think about the FAI, Ian Stokes was accepted onto the FIFA panel by UEFA on the recomendation of UEFA assessors.
It wasn't the FAI that put him on it. UEFA said hes good enough.
He is one of four referees in the country with a FIFA Referee badge.
To get a FIFA Referee badge is NOT easy and he is there (with Alan Kelly, Paul McKeon and Dave McKeon) on merit.
BobtheDrog
19/04/2004, 7:32 PM
With O'Neill you get frees you shouldnt have got and you dont get frees you should have got.
you get frees off o'neill?
and would this be the same kelly who disallowed declan o'briens goal against shels for offside whilst at a poor angle and with no flag from the linesman?
and would this be the same kelly who disallowed declan o'briens goal against shels for offside whilst at a poor angle and with no flag from the linesman?
i dunno. theres a tony kelly too.
:)
TheSaint2002
19/04/2004, 7:39 PM
I dont normaly get in too bad of a stinker with Refs :mad: but that usless **** Hancock-less is the worst bottling ******* excuse of a referee ever,had him something like 4 of the last five game V waterford and he made total ******** of all the games.Last Fridday he was played like a Harp by Alan Reynolds knackers on tour,such cheating should had resulted in two or three Reds and he only sent your man off because he had no other choice. If they keep up their school yard antics they will become the new Shels and not in a good way its just everybody will hate their Guts :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
MariborKev
19/04/2004, 9:41 PM
Pat Kelly was up at one of our Forums in Derry a few years back
Very informative and willing to tackle the tough issues
Éanna
20/04/2004, 12:26 PM
Pat Kelly was up at one of our Forums in Derry a few years back
Very informative and willing to tackle the tough issues
fair enough. on the 2 occasions I spoke to him he was patronising and arrogant. maybe I just got him on bad days
Éanna
20/04/2004, 12:27 PM
Ian Stokes was nominated by the FAI for a FIFA Referee badge last year and was independently assessed by UEFA observers from different countries on numerous occassions.
No matter what you may think and what you think about the FAI, Ian Stokes was accepted onto the FIFA panel by UEFA on the recomendation of UEFA assessors.
It wasn't the FAI that put him on it. UEFA said hes good enough.
He is one of four referees in the country with a FIFA Referee badge.
To get a FIFA Referee badge is NOT easy and he is there (with Alan Kelly, Paul McKeon and Dave McKeon) on merit.
so Paul McKeon and Ian Stokes have FIFA badges? We might as well give up so. Because they are (apart from O'Neill) the two worst refs in the Premier. Correct me if I'm wrong but did O'Neill not have a FIFA badge before?
Correct me if I'm wrong but did O'Neill not have a FIFA badge before?...........
no.
fair enough. on the 2 occasions I spoke to him he was patronising and arrogant. maybe I just got him on bad days
maybe it was the way you spoke to him Eanna?
and what you said to him?
just maybe...
If I remember correctly I asked him why the same referees keep making the same bloody mistakes and never seem to be brought to book about it. he ignored me, and when someone else started shouting at him I told them to stop and all he'd say to me was "would you like to be a ref. I think you'd be a great ref." with a sarcastic grin. I'm not saying I was in great form, but if a guy came up to ya complaining about a referee, would YOU turn around and suggest he becomes one himself- it was stupidity.
Again, this is another reason why I think such a meeting away from matchdaywould be a good idea
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