View Full Version : Financial Implications of Euro Exit for Bohs
Ezeikial
21/07/2010, 2:21 PM
Leaving aside the unexpected performance against TNS, I wonder what impact this will have for Bohs from a financial perspective.
How is it likely to affect Bohs compliance with the 65% rule?
If Bohs had previously based budgets and spending on winning the league, is it fair to speculate that their budget likely included a minimum of 3 rounds of Euro participation?
Champions League (2 Rounds x €130k ?) €260,000 plus Europa League at €90,000. Anticipated gate receipts say €75,000.
Obviously costs such as away travel and player bonus would have been factored in, but ancillary revenue including possible TV money would perhaps also have been in a budget.
Could it be that the hole in the budget is now in the region of €300,000?
What action are Bohs likely to take?
Should it have any effect. If we have a proper licencing system*, they wouldn't be allowed budget for progress in any cup competition.
*A pretty feckin big If .
http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/bohs-face-euro500000-shambles-2266497.html
“I feel low and I did feel like walking away from it all. We need to have a look at everything, starting with my own position. I don't want to walk away but we have to reassess everything.
"We will have to look at letting players go, and fairly soon. I will have a look at that over the next day or two and see where we stand.
"I don't want to let players go but I think I will have to. I need to talk to the people within the club. We will take stock and see where we want to go. We are struggling to carry on so we need to sit down and take action,"
redobit
21/07/2010, 2:31 PM
Looks like they could have handed Shams the League too.
Surely if the FAI would not allow Bohs to include the prize money for 3rd place in their budget then they would not have allowed them to include monies related to progression in Europe.
So it may well hurt Bohs long term, but for this year it should not make too much of a difference.
http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/bohs-face-euro500000-shambles-2266497.html
“I feel low and I did feel like walking away from it all. We need to have a look at everything, starting with my own position. I don't want to walk away but we have to reassess everything.
"We will have to look at letting players go, and fairly soon. I will have a look at that over the next day or two and see where we stand.
"I don't want to let players go but I think I will have to. I need to talk to the people within the club. We will take stock and see where we want to go. We are struggling to carry on so we need to sit down and take action,"
Doesn't look too good.
It is obvious from that statement that Bohs' budget did indeed rely on further progress in the CL.
Why else would they have to let playeres go?
I don't know what the norm is in other leagues but in the context of our league, budgeting for financial rewards from arrogantly anticipated European progress is braindead stuff.
Having said that, there was the same stuff doing the rounds after their Euro exit last year and not a lot has changed.
Win the league again and I'd say the roadshow will continue.
Looks like they could have handed Shams the League too.
Bohs squad, even with 2/3 departures is still vastly superior to that of other LOI clubs. All depends on who comes in as manager, but anyone thinking Bohs won’t be in the top 3 (at least) and fighting for the league in October is delusional
Straightstory
21/07/2010, 2:53 PM
Fair play to Fenlon. Not putting a gloss on it - and sharing the bitter disappointment of the fans.
I don't know what the norm is in other leagues but in the context of our league, budgeting for financial rewards from arrogantly anticipated European progress is braindead stuff.
And what does that say about our Licencing system? Another season, another discrediting....
Not a whole lot but we pretty much knew that anyways.
redobit
21/07/2010, 3:05 PM
Bohs squad, even with 2/3 departures is still vastly superior to that of other LOI clubs. All depends on who comes in as manager, but anyone thinking Bohs won’t be in the top 3 (at least) and fighting for the league in October is delusional
As you rightly said, it depends, but i dont think they would have made a statment like that if they were letting just one or two players go. This much uncertantity and unheaval off the pitch will affect there performances on it, and at this stage of the season, on the run in for a title....
Looks like they could have handed Shams the League too.
At least some good would come from the defeat then...
As you rightly said, it depends, but i dont think they would have made a statment like that if they were letting just one or two players go.
They didn't make the sttement. nutsy did when talking to a journo the night after they lost in europe. Loads to be decided I'd imagine
And what does that say about our Licencing system? Another season, another discrediting....
i think we should wait and see what conditions were imposed before slamming it already. I would be hopeful that we werent allowed to budget for progression in Europe similarly how we werent allowed budget for winning the league. In other words, no more than e330k which is the guaranteed amount. We may have tried to (i honestly dont know) but thats another matter.
Even if we are okay in relation to the SCP, this will still have huge implications for us and our structure going forward.
Ezeikial
21/07/2010, 4:45 PM
In other words, no more than e330k which is the guaranteed amount.
Do you know how this guaranteed €330k breaks down?
No i dont, and dont see what youre getting at. All i know is that is the figure that has been reported regularly in all the news articles.
Ezeikial
21/07/2010, 5:12 PM
No i dont, and dont see what youre getting at. All i know is that is the figure that has been reported regularly in all the news articles.
Suggest you chill a little - I wasn't "gettin at" anything, other then how this breaksdown.
CharlesThompson
21/07/2010, 5:29 PM
Suggest you chill a little - I wasn't "gettin at" anything, other then how this breaksdown.
Maybe you should become a member Ezeikial seeing as you appear still to have an almost insatiable compunction to know how Bohs do things?
Suggest you chill a little - I wasn't "gettin at" anything, other then how this breaksdown.
Sorry my wording came across as terse, which i didnt intend (but probably am - its a little hard to chill after yesterdays roasting). I just dont know what you mean by breakdown? We get e330k for appearance in the 2nd qualifying round of the Champions League. Do you mean is it in staged payments? I dont think so.
It is. You get some money for "expenses" and the rest when the whle champions league kitty is divvied up
EDIT; the expenses are a fair whack. something like 40k per round
I cant see how they could have included possible cl money in their budget, but I think a far more pressing issue for them is because they have gone out of europe at this stage, the windfall expected from belgian tv and whoever they could have drawn in the europa is gone. I'm fairly sure the reason fenlon is saying what has to happen is a lot to do with a rather large installment of a loan repayment is due in January to zurich and failure to pay could result in them losing the car park, which is a huge source of revenue for them. The way they have juggled their finances in recent years would suggest all eggs were in the one basket hoping a euro run would stave off the bank for another year. But with last nights capitulation, the future, long-term, is without doubt not looking too clever.
holidaysong
21/07/2010, 6:31 PM
Do you know how this guaranteed €330k breaks down?
The CL is €130k per round. The EL is €90k. Also in the CL any team that doesn't make the group stages gets an additional €200k.
The €330k that Bohs get would therefore break down as two payments - €130k and €200k.
If they had beaten TNS they would have been guaranteed another €220k (€130k+€90k) minimum on top of this
GUFCghost
21/07/2010, 6:39 PM
Surely if the FAI would not allow Bohs to include the prize money for 3rd place in their budget then they would not have allowed them to include monies related to progression in Europe.
So it may well hurt Bohs long term, but for this year it should not make too much of a difference.
Why this is The FAI!
Any thing can happen,you just have to believe!
Spudulika
21/07/2010, 6:51 PM
The CL is €130k per round. The EL is €90k. Also in the CL any team that doesn't make the group stages gets an additional €200k.
The €330k that Bohs get would therefore break down as two payments - €130k and €200k.
If they had beaten TNS they would have been guaranteed another €220k (€130k+€90k) minimum on top of this
Correct on this - all national champions who qualify get €130k, falling out before the group nets another €200.
It's actually a lucrative business if you're a club in one of the tiny spots who get rolled over - Andorra, San Marino, Wales, er, Ireland. The budget and expenses for a team from San Marino to win the league must be less than €200k, so it's a tidy investment - cue a clatter of feet to "invest" in the San Marino futures market!
Ezeikial
21/07/2010, 10:22 PM
Maybe you should become a member Ezeikial seeing as you appear still to have an almost insatiable compunction to know how Bohs do things?
I know that this might come as a big surprise to you, but Champions League participation money is not exclusively a "Bohs thing".
galwayjames
21/07/2010, 10:52 PM
I remember being told how European progress would provide a solution to our financial woes up in Derry about this time last year - be afraid Bohs, be very afraid!
:excruciating:
I remember this time last year reading in the paper that Derry needed a good run to keep things going financially and pretty much laughed at the idea that Derry could be in financial problems, but then look what happened :o
For Bohs I wouldn't worry, I heard & read all this after last year's early exit, and nothing happened. If ye win the league this will be all brushed under the carpet and ye'll have a similar strength squad again next year.
And I think it's vital ye release some of yere overpaid players, ones like Brennan (rubbish for over a year considering his talents), Heary (great player but too old now, maybe a different role in the club other than playing) and McGuinness (absolutely dreadful for ages, get him out as soon as possible)
anyone know how many players' contracts at bohs are finished at the end of this year?
Charlie Darwin
21/07/2010, 11:08 PM
http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/bohs-face-euro500000-shambles-2266497.html
“I feel low and I did feel like walking away from it all. We need to have a look at everything, starting with my own position. I don't want to walk away but we have to reassess everything.
"We will have to look at letting players go, and fairly soon. I will have a look at that over the next day or two and see where we stand.
"I don't want to let players go but I think I will have to. I need to talk to the people within the club. We will take stock and see where we want to go. We are struggling to carry on so we need to sit down and take action,"
I read this one as a money thing at first, but the more I think about it the more I think he might have just realised how limited/disinterested some of his players are.
CSFShels
21/07/2010, 11:21 PM
That is probably true, but its almost definitely not what hes saying. Would bet any money (not with Bohs of course, they wouldn't be able to pay up) hes talking about financially.
Spudulika
22/07/2010, 6:33 AM
I think going out of Europe is going to be used as an excuse for a cull - putting all the opinions together, "we've not enough money to cover your wages, so good luck" - and you get rid of the overpaid deadwood. Same as in the business world!
Except Fenlon signed every one of these players. If there's deadwood at the club it's his fault
marinobohs
22/07/2010, 9:35 AM
To the best of my knowledge Bohs did not budget for any euro money other than what was guaranteed, so no provision made for "Andelecht money". It is no great secret (especially on here) that Bohs reconstructed board have been reviewing the business model we have and amending it to reflect the financial position we are in - budgets were cut very dramatically this year and with most of the squad out of contract for next season decisions have to be made. This exercise is currently ongoing and I can only presume this is what Nutsey referred to.
As Dodge (and others) have pointed out Bohs have a large, expensive squad this season with Europe now over there is a question of whether we need and/or can afford such a squad. Again no great secret that some players have been a serious disappointment and that Nutsey has been looking to bring players in - this will only happen if he can shift some out. just the usual wheeling dealing that goes on at all clubs in fact. Did shams choking on run in last season impact on their budget for this season ? Of course it did or Sligo missing out on europe ? much the same thing for us after Tuesday nights disaster.
RoversHead
22/07/2010, 10:41 AM
To the best of my knowledge Bohs did not budget for any euro money other than what was guaranteed, so no provision made for "Andelecht money". It is no great secret (especially on here) that Bohs reconstructed board have been reviewing the business model we have and amending it to reflect the financial position we are in - budgets were cut very dramatically this year and with most of the squad out of contract for next season decisions have to be made. This exercise is currently ongoing and I can only presume this is what Nutsey referred to.
As Dodge (and others) have pointed out Bohs have a large, expensive squad this season with Europe now over there is a question of whether we need and/or can afford such a squad. Again no great secret that some players have been a serious disappointment and that Nutsey has been looking to bring players in - this will only happen if he can shift some out. just the usual wheeling dealing that goes on at all clubs in fact. Did shams choking on run in last season impact on their budget for this season ? Of course it did or Sligo missing out on europe ? much the same thing for us after Tuesday nights disaster.Slightly different vibe coming from Bohs .com Marino,most over there seem to genuinely believe that the very existance of the club is now uncertain.Infact if you posted the above over there you would soon be educated as to the true extent of the crisis .
Dave_SRFC
22/07/2010, 10:49 AM
Think yis are fooked marinobohs. yis should have heeded the mistakes made by previous clubs including ourselves...
marinobohs
22/07/2010, 11:23 AM
Slightly different vibe coming from Bohs .com Marino,most over there seem to genuinely believe that the very existance of the club is now uncertain.Infact if you posted the above over there you would soon be educated as to the true extent of the crisis .
What ? some posters on Bohs.com pessimistic ? how utterly surprising :cool:
Can only relay facts as I understand them, so yes, I could be wrong but I have seen no evidence to cotradict my view yet. as with your own "ultras" website some posters are not always 100% rational -especially after a really, really depressing result (remember the calls for O'Neill out earlier in the season ?). I post on and read Bohs.com so dont need the "education" thank you (prefer to get my info as a club member :rolleyes:)
mrtndvn
22/07/2010, 12:46 PM
The very existence of bohs is not under threat, all they are doing is eating into a very prosperous future they could of had after selling Daly.
7 million in the red isnt that big of a problem if you have assets worth 20 million. The problem lays that next year it will be 9 million, year after 11 etc etc.
It's amazing how quick a club can burn through money paying wages. In Derry, I think the figure we paid out in the last 5 years in wages was in and around 10 million. Imagine the stadium we could of built with that..
Once again, Fenlon has failed to deliver targets based on the budget he was given. While winning the league looks good on paper, when you consider the resources he had to do it it's hardly a surprise. It would be a bit like Real Madrid claiming a good season last year because they gained a record points total.
I would imagine people will smell the coffee when it comes to Fenlon, three clubs he's now managed, and three clubs he's left in ruins after his departure.
Dodge
22/07/2010, 12:59 PM
I think you're forgetting about the legal battles surrounding dalymount there mrtndvn
They could very quickly becoming far more than 7 million in debt and with Zurich having a hold on the car park, and Albion owning the shopping cnetre end, their "asset" in Dalymount is worth far less than they have it listed
passerrby
22/07/2010, 1:02 PM
I think both marinobohs and srfc dave are looking at the best possible sererano as they would wish it however i suspect the truth lays somewhere in the middle
marinobohs
22/07/2010, 1:02 PM
The very existence of bohs is not under threat, all they are doing is eating into a very prosperous future they could of had after selling Daly.
7 million in the red isnt that big of a problem if you have assets worth 20 million. The problem lays that next year it will be 9 million, year after 11 etc etc.
It's amazing how quick a club can burn through money paying wages. In Derry, I think the figure we paid out in the last 5 years in wages was in and around 10 million. Imagine the stadium we could of built with that..
Once again, Fenlon has failed to deliver targets based on the budget he was given. While winning the league looks good on paper, when you consider the resources he had to do it it's hardly a surprise. It would be a bit like Real Madrid claiming a good season last year because they gained a record points total.
I would imagine people will smell the coffee when it comes to Fenlon, three clubs he's now managed, and three clubs he's left in ruins after his departure.
Bohs will not be carrying on the deficit budgeting of previous regimes (unlike other clubs we wont try and walk away from responsibilities either) and work already commenced on reversing that trend.
Fenlon was not given a target of reaching group stages so dissapointing as Tuesday night was it is more in a football context and consideration of viability of professional football next season. At no club has Fenlon spent more money than he was allowed (unlike some other managers) so to blame him for financial difficulties is wrong - blame those that sanctioned the spending. Christ sake he was hardly at Derry long enough to do damage even if he tried !!!
Rasputin
22/07/2010, 2:39 PM
I would imagine people will smell the coffee when it comes to Fenlon, three clubs he's now managed, and three clubs he's left in ruins after his departure.
Thats ridiculous.
Nutsy is far and away the best manager in the league, he spends what is given and brings success.
He doesnt make the budget, that is not his sphere of influence.
mrtndvn
22/07/2010, 3:33 PM
Bohs will not be carrying on the deficit budgeting of previous regimes (unlike other clubs we wont try and walk away from responsibilities either) and work already commenced on reversing that trend.
Fenlon was not given a target of reaching group stages so dissapointing as Tuesday night was it is more in a football context and consideration of viability of professional football next season. At no club has Fenlon spent more money than he was allowed (unlike some other managers) so to blame him for financial difficulties is wrong - blame those that sanctioned the spending. Christ sake he was hardly at Derry long enough to do damage even if he tried !!!
No one (bar the creditors) is more disgusted at what Derry, Cork et al have done in the past than me. I'm also well aware that bohs will be fine long term, and they they will service all their debts. But they are ruining their future. However, as a fan of bohemian fc, I'm sure you are well aware of this. I take no pleasure in this, I would of liked nothing more than you guys to sell up, and do something similar to what Rovers did.
Unfortunately, Fenlon was at Derry ample time to do serious damage. On top of squandering large amounts of money on players, he also left us with little chance of Setanta progression and seriously damaged our chances of European football the year after. I'm sure I don't have to tell you what European football is worth these days. All this despite been handed the best squad in the league.
I think you're forgetting about the legal battles surrounding dalymount there mrtndvn
They could very quickly becoming far more than 7 million in debt and with Zurich having a hold on the car park, and Albion owning the shopping cnetre end, their "asset" in Dalymount is worth far less than they have it listed
At an interest rate of 8-14%, the debt is growing rapidly daily, even forgetting about court cases. Even if things don't go their way, its still a prime bit of land and I assume debts will still be covered.
Thats ridiculous.
Nutsy is far and away the best manager in the league, he spends what is given and brings success.
He doesnt make the budget, that is not his sphere of influence.
When Fenlon was with Derry, he was working with a board that according to the FAI was part of either the best or second best ran club in the country. (Galway may have been best)
He emptied the Brandywell with unsuccessful boring football, and the clubs that he has been successful with must be the only two clubs in the world where success hasn't impacted in increased attendances.
Success is all relative, given the resources he was given, a 4-0 defeat against some team from wales is not acceptable.
I've no real desire to get into a Pat Felon debate, I've seen 1st hand what poison he is. But when you compare the state of clubs from when he is given control, to when he departs, there is a notable difference.
good posts mrtndvn. Find it hard to disagree with most your assessments (with the exception that what happened in Derry was not exclusively his fault. Sure he signed a few bangers on a hefty wedge but those signings were sanctioned).
I personally feel he is an excellent manager in a lot of ways but i think that he took his eye off the ball at the beginning of the season after the Dundee United shenanigans. When he should have been bringing the new players that he had signed into the fold and part of the team, he was talking to DUFC. It was always going to be a challenge bringing in that amount of new players anyway but he also lost 2-3 critical weeks of team building and planning. I think it set us back big time and i think he has to accept some of the blame for that. His team selections and tactics this year have baffled me too in a lot of ways. That said, im not too sure there are many over on thebohs.com that agree with me as most are steaming at the crop of imposters that played on Tuesday evening.
Appreciate your posts.
galwayjames
22/07/2010, 8:13 PM
When he should have been bringing the new players that he had signed into the fold and part of the team, he was talking to DUFC. It was always going to be a challenge bringing in that amount of new players anyway but he also lost 2-3 critical weeks of team building and planning.
If I was a Bohs fan I'd be happy that Fenlon is still at the club, I'd rather lose those 2 weeks of pre-season than to not have him at all.
If I was a Bohs fan I'd be happy that Fenlon is still at the club, I'd rather lose those 2 weeks of pre-season than to not have him at all.
generally i agree but its my opinion, and thats all, that we lost him then. He lost focus, got distracted and has been playing catch up since.
Plus his new signings havent, for the most part, performed for him and he has made some poor team selections, trying to keep all the players happy. Then the bonus thing kicked off and it all culminated in the TNS game. A perfect storm.
Despite my state of depression the last few days, there are positives to be drawn from this debacle. Painful ones but necessary.
RoversHead
22/07/2010, 9:41 PM
What ? some posters on Bohs.com pessimistic ? how utterly surprising :cool:
Can only relay facts as I understand them, so yes, I could be wrong but I have seen no evidence to cotradict my view yet. as with your own "ultras" website some posters are not always 100% rational -especially after a really, really depressing result (remember the calls for O'Neill out earlier in the season ?). I post on and read Bohs.com so dont need the "education" thank you (prefer to get my info as a club member :rolleyes:)Actually Marino I was reffering to the posts in the members forum on bohs.com and Im looking forward to hearing your and SKs views on developements over the coming weeks,A move to part time time football before the end of the season seems to be at odds with your understanding of the situation,will you vote for or against at the EGM next week?
Actually Marino I was reffering to the posts in the members forum on bohs.com and Im looking forward to hearing your and SKs views on developements over the coming weeks,A move to part time time football before the end of the season seems to be at odds with your understanding of the situation,will you vote for or against at the EGM next week?
what posts would these be? Specifics please.
unless you mean this article in the herald.
Wow! Top exclusive sources youve got there...
http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/bohs-ready-to-revert-to-parttime-2268463.html
poster
22/07/2010, 9:55 PM
Thats ridiculous.
Nutsy is far and away the best manager in the league, he spends what is given and brings success.
Did well in Derry, didn't he?
Ezeikial
23/07/2010, 12:17 AM
...... and in the face of trying to pick up the pieces in the wake of arrogance and incompetence on the part of those who "run" your club you might have to climb down off the high horse on which you are currently seated.
This "arrogance and incompetence" (and the two are very closely linked) is by now well established. Many otherwise intelligent people who are members of Bohs have facilitated this recklessness and massive risk taking.
I doubt that Bohs immediate financial challenges are anywhere near terminal - they are still well placed to win the league for example - but unless there is a sea change in attitude it is hard to have confidence that the current "big club" ethos that pervades is conducive to guiding the club through the changes that are obviously needed.
galwayjames
23/07/2010, 2:06 AM
I think it's an interesting point to make that Bohs have 8 more professional players than Rangers.
http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/bohs-face-euro500000-shambles-2266497.html
“I feel low and I did feel like walking away from it all. We need to have a look at everything, starting with my own position. I don't want to walk away but we have to reassess everything.
"We will have to look at letting players go, and fairly soon. I will have a look at that over the next day or two and see where we stand.
"I don't want to let players go but I think I will have to. I need to talk to the people within the club. We will take stock and see where we want to go. We are struggling to carry on so we need to sit down and take action,"
Jesus that really is downbeat ! Bray @ 9/1 to win tonoight, might not be a bad bet :p but i've no doubt a backlash is coming our way.... This is not thye end of Bohs in the League title by a long way.
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