Crowds at non-league games / candidates for expansion

[Tony Soprano]

Does anyone know anything about crowds at non-league games (Leinster Senior League, Munster Senior League etc) ?

Do any of these teams have what could be descibed as a real following (beyond friends and family of the players, club members etc), say 100, 200 or so fans ?

Do any of them charge admission for games ? Do any of them pay their players anything ?

Which non-league teams do you think would be best suited to joining the FD / A-League, would be most likely to create a following ?

Same questions for the A-League teams (Tullamore etc) - do they charge for admission ?

[Riddickcule]

Greystones AFC get a good little crowd sometimes. They wouldn't have the required resources need to go into the LOI though. Unless, the unthinkable happens which is an amalgamation of Greystones United and AFC.

[**FrOsTy**]

I think Salthill and Mervue are good examples of why teams like that should stay where they are. Unless as Riddickcule says there is an amalgamation of some sort.

[Dillonman]

Maybe if both Mullingar teams came together and set up then they might have a chance, Town is quite big too.

[Tony Soprano]

Greystones AFC get a good little crowd sometimes. They wouldn't have the required resources need to go into the LOI though. Unless, the unthinkable happens which is an amalgamation of Greystones United and AFC.

what resources would they need ?

is the diference between how much it costs to run an A-Championship side vis a vis a LSL team that much ?

if we could have more Leinster teams we could regionalise the A-Championship so that there was a Leinster Division covering more or less the same area as the LSL, meaning travel costs shouldn't be an issue

maybe even have a Dublin division if teams are still worried about transport

Ulster, Connacht would be problematic

a Munster division might be more feasible

but a Leinster division seems very possible. why would LSL teams not be interested if costs remained more or less the same ?

I'd love to see all senior football linked up one day through promotion and relegation - maybe have a big PD (18 or 20 teams), two or three first divisions (east south and and north west for example) and maybe 5 or 6 regional divisions below that. FAI could give teams some money (say 5-10k) to subsidise travel costs in the FD for fist couple of years

is this totally unrealistic ?

as for grounds, don't introduce too many requirements (unless they get promoted to the PD) unless grounds are dangerous they should be allowed use them. I think ground requirements can scare teams away and are at times excessive


I think Salthill and Mervue are good examples of why teams like that should stay where they are. Unless as Riddickcule says there is an amalgamation of some sort.

if they can afford it let them continue in the league. if they go back down its not a big problem. the more teams we let in the more chance we have of finding ones that can can survive long term (like Bray, Monaghan and Cobh who joined all in 1985)

The more teams the better I think - I suppose you could argue having multiple teams from one town (Galway) is bad (although I'm not sure their crowds have affected Galway Utd) but most new teams would be from towns that don't have sides or are big enough to support more (Cork and Dublin)

[sullanefc]

Sporting Castleisland (kerry district league) get decent crowds. Apparently they are heavily backed financially and pay their players €150 per game. Usually poaching players from other KDL teams. A LOI application is imminent and they aim to be in the Premier division in 3 years and european football in 4 years.

[monkey9]

Sporting Castleisland (kerry district league) get decent crowds. Apparently they are heavily backed financially and pay their players €150 per game. Usually poaching players from other KDL teams. A LOI application is imminent and they aim to be in the Premier division in 3 years and european football in 4 years.

I hope Tony Soprano doesn't see this post!!!

[Guinney]

I'd love to see all senior football linked up one day through promotion and relegation - maybe have a big PD (18 or 20 teams), two or three first divisions (east south and and north west for example) and maybe 5 or 6 regional divisions below that. FAI could give teams some money (say 5-10k) to subsidise travel costs in the FD for fist couple of years

is this totally unrealistic ?

Some great ideas there Tony Saprano. Especailly the one above. As I mentioned in another thread, I think expanding the league is the only way to go. It could be argued that it would reduce the quality as there isn't enough 'strong' teams out there. However, the high standard in the first division this year is showing that there is teams first division who could compete in the top tier. Derry & Cork two massive clubs, others like Limerick, Waterford, Finn Harps, Shels and so on have potential. Okay may be getting a bit ahead of myself but I always felt an amalgamation of the League of Ireland with the Northern Irish league would be a good idea, there is 2-3 big teams up there who could add to this league - eg. Glentoran & Linfield. However, doubt it would ever happen due to a number of complications, including a possibility of sectarian violence & also co-operation between the IFA & FAI.

Never heard of Sporting Castleisland, sounds like they have ambitious plans. Would be great to see a team from Kerry compete in the LOI.

[bennocelt]

Maybe if both Mullingar teams came together and set up then they might have a chance, Town is quite big too.

Never going to happen, hate each other

[John83]

is this totally unrealistic ?
Yes it is.

[dcfcsteve]

Does anyone know anything about crowds at non-league games (Leinster Senior League, Munster Senior League etc) ?

Do any of these teams have what could be descibed as a real following (beyond friends and family of the players, club members etc), say 100, 200 or so fans ?

Do any of them charge admission for games ? Do any of them pay their players anything ?

Which non-league teams do you think would be best suited to joining the FD / A-League, would be most likely to create a following ?

Same questions for the A-League teams (Tullamore etc) - do they charge for admission ?

There's a few junior/intermediate clubs with decent crowds alright

Sporting Tipperary North Riding have inherited Thurles Town's mantle, and attract a decent crowd. It's hard to think of any reason why they shouldn't be welcome into the league.

Deportivo Navan have an excellent set-up and a lot of junior clubs, so have always pulled in a crowd.

I'm also told there's a team made up largely of refugees who used to be based in Mosney, called Sporting Amuustach. They seem to have really captured the imagination of a sizeable portion of the non-nationals in inner city North Dublin, so could well prove to be the Irish answer to Glasgow Celtic.

Big opportunity for such clubs to really make a name for themselves.

[sullanefc]

There's a few junior/intermediate clubs with decent crowds alright

Sporting Tipperary North Riding have inherited Thurles Town's mantle, and attract a decent crowd. It's hard to think of any reason why they shouldn't be welcome into the league.

Deportivo Navan have an excellent set-up and a lot of junior clubs, so have always pulled in a crowd.

I'm also told there's a team made up largely of refugees who used to be based in Mosney, called Sporting Amuustach. They seem to have really captured the imagination of a sizeable portion of the non-nationals in inner city North Dublin, so could well prove to be the Irish answer to Glasgow Celtic.

Big opportunity for such clubs to really make a name for themselves.
Don't forget Dynamo Abbeyleix. Heard they got an average gate of 450 last season. Hope they apply for LOI status. There only problem might be passing rule 5.7 subsection 3. Otherwise known as the "Silly name" criteria.

[Tony Soprano]

Some great ideas there Tony Saprano. Especailly the one above. As I mentioned in another thread, I think expanding the league is the only way to go. It could be argued that it would reduce the quality as there isn't enough 'strong' teams out there. However, the high standard in the first division this year is showing that there is teams first division who could compete in the top tier. Derry & Cork two massive clubs, others like Limerick, Waterford, Finn Harps, Shels and so on have potential. Okay may be getting a bit ahead of myself but I always felt an amalgamation of the League of Ireland with the Northern Irish league would be a good idea, there is 2-3 big teams up there who could add to this league - eg. Glentoran & Linfield. However, doubt it would ever happen due to a number of complications, including a possibility of sectarian violence & also co-operation between the IFA & FAI.

Never heard of Sporting Castleisland, sounds like they have ambitious plans. Would be great to see a team from Kerry compete in the LOI.

merging with the Irish League (and all lower divisions up north too) would be great but as you say cooperation between IFA and FAI is a big problem. big issues at the moment regarding NI players declaring for the Republic (Daniel Kearns case at the moment is before the CAS in Zurich).

a merged league may be seen as a threat to the IFA's future, the spectre of a single UK team or single Ireland teamis is always there. and without a separate league they may feel it will harder to justify the continuation of the NI team

I don't think sectarian violence would be as big an issue as some might fear. setanta games have been generally ok.

Sporting Castelisland was a wind up I think

Tullamore, Tralee and castlebar still field teams in their old leagues (LSL, KDL and mayo) Does anyone know how this works ? Are they separate squads or do some players play in both (when season's don't overlap) ?

[gufcfan]

I think Salthill and Mervue are good examples of why teams like that should stay where they are. Unless as Riddickcule says there is an amalgamation of some sort.
Two times nothing is still nothing.

[Dodge]

Two times nothing is still nothing.

Where were you when Nick leeson needed you most?

[**FrOsTy**]

I wasn't pointing out that Salthill and Mervue should amalgamate. Sorry should of cleared that up. If the likes of Clonmel Town/ Clonmel Celtic/ Carrick United amalgamated then there would be a decent side from Tipperary which 2 big(ish) areas would have a team to support. I remember Carrick brought a heap of fans to the FAI Junior Cup Final v Killester a few years back. There is also a lot of good players from the area.

[peadar1987]

A big part of the problem is the fragmentation of the leagues. Junior clubs don't like the LOI, and they don't like each other. Football in Ireland would be far better served by junior clubs merging, and having big teams in say Navan, Ennis, Nenagh, Mullingar, Mallow, Clonmel, Portlaoise, etc., but the way things are at the moment, any clubs that tries to do that is just going to be held back by waves of begrudgery from other football clubs in the region. Look at Tralee Dynamos and the KDL.

[Tony Soprano]

A big part of the problem is the fragmentation of the leagues. Junior clubs don't like the LOI, and they don't like each other. Football in Ireland would be far better served by junior clubs merging, and having big teams in say Navan, Ennis, Nenagh, Mullingar, Mallow, Clonmel, Portlaoise, etc., but the way things are at the moment, any clubs that tries to do that is just going to be held back by waves of begrudgery from other football clubs in the region. Look at Tralee Dynamos and the KDL.

why is that ? the relationship between LOI clubs and non-league / junior clubs / schoolboy clubs and leagues always seems to have been poor

would be great to have clubs from those towns. Portlaoise were close to joining this year I think

[Acornvilla]

things wont progress they way we all want simply because the people in charge are irish and 99% of irish people don't like change or to feel like they wont have the same power they once had for the greater good of everyone else, to many self interested 'insert sweary mean sounding bold banned name'

[Spudulika]

Football in Ireland will always stay as it is because it doesn't suit the FAI or the senior and junior ranks to change. Look at the crap new clubs suffer when they pop their heads above the parapet - the 2 Galway clubs, Sporting Fingal - the begrudgery and nastiness thrown at them from "fans" is beyond the pale. Wexford have escaped somewhat because people are not sure of what to make of it, plus they're tipping along nicely. No matter what Irish "fans" won't be happy, clubs will divide and fight and the FAI will divide and conquer. The clubs, with their whinging and complaining, had a chance to knock the stuffing out of the FAI lately with the LOI deal, but they simply lined up, kissed Lord Delaney's ring, dropped trou's, turned around and well, we know the rest.

Joined up thinking isn't a strong feature of football in general, and in the LOI it's an anathema!

[Kingdom]

I could be a million miles off this but I always got the impression that LSL clubs, the bigger ones mind, paid their players to a degree, under the table - I know Mount Merrion who were 3rd division LSL were attracting players that wouldn't have been out of place in LOI 1st division never mind LSL 1st division. If these clubs were to go to the LOI would they have to declare their income wages paid out etc.?

[endabob1]

The whole thing needs to restructured from the bottom up, Junior Clubs need to feed into senior clubs, centres of excellence need to be established to keep 15/16 year olds in Ireland, there are a lot of small steps that could and should be taken but the whole structure is crying out for reform. Unfortunately there are too many clubs both senior & Junior that have their own narrow agendas, but the FAI run football in Ireland it's up to them to put the structure in place, put the rules in place to keep clubs in check and enforce those rules when clubs step out of line.
I think a Premier Division of 16 clubs with 4 (Dublin, Leinster, Munster Connacht/Ulster) regional feeder leagues would be the best structure, it cuts down on travel time and expense. End of season promotion/relegation play-offs but clubs can only get promoted if (proper) licensing criteria is met.
That said changing the top divisions is deck chairs on the titanic stuff unless it's done all the way down to Junior and especially underage clubs.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Well if there was a way to create a true pyramid without aggravating power-brokers, because any effort that aggravates them would fail, then it would at least bring a bit more coherency to matters.

[Tony Soprano]

I could be a million miles off this but I always got the impression that LSL clubs, the bigger ones mind, paid their players to a degree, under the table - I know Mount Merrion who were 3rd division LSL were attracting players that wouldn't have been out of place in LOI 1st division never mind LSL 1st division. If these clubs were to go to the LOI would they have to declare their income wages paid out etc.?

any idea of what are we talking about - 100 euros a game ? where do they get the money from ?

I've no idea how the LSL works - do any of them actually charge people for admission to games ?


The whole thing needs to restructured from the bottom up, Junior Clubs need to feed into senior clubs, centres of excellence need to be established to keep 15/16 year olds in Ireland, there are a lot of small steps that could and should be taken but the whole structure is crying out for reform. Unfortunately there are too many clubs both senior & Junior that have their own narrow agendas, but the FAI run football in Ireland it's up to them to put the structure in place, put the rules in place to keep clubs in check and enforce those rules when clubs step out of line.
I think a Premier Division of 16 clubs with 4 (Dublin, Leinster, Munster Connacht/Ulster) regional feeder leagues would be the best structure, it cuts down on travel time and expense. End of season promotion/relegation play-offs but clubs can only get promoted if (proper) licensing criteria is met.
That said changing the top divisions is deck chairs on the titanic stuff unless it's done all the way down to Junior and especially underage clubs.

agree with nearly all of that

don't like the idea of club licensing being too strict. this can keep clubs away, especially ground regulations. we don't want clubs going bust mid-season and playing in dangerous grounds. apart from that regulations shouldn't be too extensive in my opinion

Salthill are operating on a budget of 55k in the FD according to a poster on another thread. surely lots of LSL and town teams could manage that. and costs would be much less in the regionlised lower tiers

its quite unusual effectively having the LOI as a closed shop. not sure this happens anyhwere else (apart from Scotland but at least they have 40 clubs) seems everywhere else the pro leagues are linked to the lower levels

FAI needs to help with trying to keep kids at home for longer, this is a complex issue. not sure clubs have resources to do it on their own.

[fionnsci]

A football pyramid akin to that in England is not possible in Ireland. The current system does however allow for expansion into the A Championship without the need to drastically change the whole structure of the league. There are only a handful of towns/teams left capable of potentially hosting high level league football without LOI/A Champ representation so it would be unwise to expand the system to anything other than the current 3 tiers. Also, if the LSL were to merge, the LOI First Division would quickly fill up with the Crumlin Uniteds, Cherry Orchards of this world. Successful footballing clubs but with little to offer the LOI.

[KevB76]

I wasn't pointing out that Salthill and Mervue should amalgamate. Sorry should of cleared that up. If the likes of Clonmel Town/ Clonmel Celtic/ Carrick United amalgamated then there would be a decent side from Tipperary which 2 big(ish) areas would have a team to support. I remember Carrick brought a heap of fans to the FAI Junior Cup Final v Killester a few years back. There is also a lot of good players from the area.

Aren't Carrick from Waterford ?

[Big Chief]

There is absolutely no point in adding more teams to the League of Ireland. The harsh reality is that there is no enough public interest in the League as it stands to justify the number of teams participating. I have previously named a number of teams who I would seriously consider removing from the League. The crowds at games are pitiful enough as things are without allowing more teams to enter senior football who draw the proverbial six men and a dog to mathces.

The one point I do agree with is the idea that Junior clubs should effectively become feeder clubs for those invoved with senior football.

[pineapple stu]

Aren't Carrick from Waterford ?
Aren't they the crowd who are just over the Waterford border but play in the Tipp leagues?

[passerrby]

dont like to disagree but cant see any club running on a budget of 55k. im sure if you take into consideration registration/affilation fees ,medical , refs, transport, kits
fines, vat, match day running costs ,player expenses if any , cant see much change from 100k

[dcfcsteve]

[QUOTE=Tony Soprano;1378826]
its quite unusual effectively having the LOI as a closed shop. not sure this happens anyhwere else (apart from Scotland but at least they have 40 clubs) seems everywhere else the pro leagues are linked to the lower levels

I was under the impression that the opposite was true - that it's not the norm to have a fully integrated structure between senior football and the various levels below.

England only brought in the pyramid instead of election entry system about 20yrs ago.

[Riddickcule]

Agree with fionnsci the english system can't work here, 2 divisions followed by a conference is the best option. If I were calling the shots in the near future I would expand the LOI to 28 teams, bring Castlebar, Cobh, Carlow, Tralee, Tullamore, Portlaoise, and bring back Kilkenny and Kildare. I'd rid of Salthill and Mervue, may be unfair but necessary for the league imo. I'd bring clubs like Mullingar and Clonmel into the A Championship. They need LOI teams.

[pineapple stu]

Who'd run Kilkenny and Kildare? The people who opted out of running them recently? (Don't mean to criticise the decision to stop being involved obviously)

[Riddickcule]

Surely you can't expect me to answer that. If it creates jobs which is what we need in this country then would it be that hard to bring them back?

[pineapple stu]

Do you honestly think running Kilkenny City or Kildare County (or any other small LoI club) creates jobs?!

Do you realise how much time is spent by volunteers running LoI clubs?

[osarusan]

Agree with fionnsci the english system can't work here, 2 divisions followed by a conference is the best option. If I were calling the shots in the near future I would expand the LOI to 28 teams, bring Castlebar, Cobh, Carlow, Tralee, Tullamore, Portlaoise, and bring back Kilkenny and Kildare. I'd rid of Salthill and Mervue, may be unfair but necessary for the league imo. I'd bring clubs like Mullingar and Clonmel into the A Championship. They need LOI teams.
Why the hell would you get rid of Salthill and Mervue? At least they've shown a bit of ambition by trying to play LOI, which some of the other teams haven't.

All you've done is chosen a few biggish towns that don't have LOI teams, but the fact that they are biggish towns without LOI teams should tell you something. If these places 'need LOI teams', why don't they have them?

[passerrby]

Surely you can't expect me to answer that. If it creates jobs which is what we need in this country then would it be that hard to bring them back?

them silly people of kilkeny and kildare did they not think of all the jobs they were losing.
so merve and salthill could not be allowed in the a championship cause they might get promoted to the FD but its ok for carlow to get promoted

in the words of monthy pyton hes making it up as hr goes along

[pineapple stu]

Surely you can't expect me to answer that. If it creates jobs which is what we need in this country then would it be that hard to bring them back?
Sorry, just had to come back to this. It is quite possibly the single stupidest comment I have ever, ever seen. Like, the more I read it, the less I can believe that, in your world, such a thing makes sense. No harm to you, but it really really sums up your knowledge of the game. Enjoy the Bray games - it's great that you at least support your local club - but please learn a bit about the game here before making such mind-numbingly silly comments in future. Please.

[Riddickcule]

Sorry, just had to come back to this. It is quite possibly the single stupidest comment I have ever, ever seen. Like, the more I read it, the less I can believe that, in your world, such a thing makes sense. No harm to you, but it really really sums up your knowledge of the game. Enjoy the Bray games - it's great that you at least support your local club - but please learn a bit about the game here before making such mind-numbingly silly comments in future. Please.
Basically what you're saying is under 18's should be banned from joining this forum. Nice to see people have no patience with young minds. Chap, cut me some slack, I've only been interested in Irish football for 4 years. How about instead, you correct me not Riddickcule me.

[pineapple stu]

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in that post alright. But seriously - Kildare and Kilkenny got crowds of about 100 per game. How on earth do you expect them to have employed people? That's an idea I'd expect under 8s to realise.

And God knows, posters have corrected you over and over again in the past couple of years; you'd imagine you'd take something on board from that. You really do yourself no favours at times.

[Riddickcule]

Last time I checked being a player was employment - yes?

As for Kildare and Kilkenny, they'd do no worse then Salthill and Mervue.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think E50 a week - max; most of their players would have been amateur I'd say - counts as employment.

And Kilkenny and Kildare would do worse than Salthill and Mervue. At least the latter two clubs have people involved in running them. Do you really not realise how important this is, and how rare people like that are?

[Dodge]

Last time I checked being a player was employment - yes?


No. Being paid for work is being employed

Kicking a ball about a pitch unpaid is what is done by thousands of people a week

[SupaJon]

Might be a silly question - but why wouldn't clubs want to be in the LOI?

[John83]

Might be a silly question - but why wouldn't clubs want to be in the LOI?
Costs, infrastructure, volunteers. Magicme estimated above that it's at least something like €100,000, even if you're amateur, just to run a club. Most small clubs would really struggle to put that together from gate receipts. The minimum requirements in licensing have been ridiculed here often enough, but plenty of clubs just don't have anything like the minimum, and wouldn't be interested in trying to get there (lots of work, money). Finally, league clubs need more volunteers for all sorts of work.

[dcfcsteve]

Might be a silly question - but why wouldn't clubs want to be in the LOI?

Given the low esteem the league is held in by politicians, the media, the public, and junior football itself, plus the endless drip-drip of bad stories that seem to dog it, surely the real question is - why WOULD any clubs want to be in the LOI......?!

[paddigol]

Greystones AFC get a good little crowd sometimes. They wouldn't have the required resources need to go into the LOI though. Unless, the unthinkable happens which is an amalgamation of Greystones United and AFC.

Should happen but won't because football in this country is all about politics. I'll say one thing for the way the GAA is run... centralised administration certainly keeps everyone generally pulling in the same direction. Too many little Chairman Mao's involved in Irish football, all wanting their little bit of power and glory. The people who really count - the players - are a mere after-thought. I'm currently trying to decide which of the two above mentioned teams to sign/ re-sign for. I shouldn't have to. Greystones is a small place, there should be the one Club, and my decision should be made for me

[Riddickcule]

Well for senior level AFC play a higher standard. United is mainly for youth.

[stann]

Wow, has the penny actually dropped on something?

For the record, as nobody has answered it yet from earlier, Carrick is in South Tipp, but the team compete in the Waterford Junior League.

[dcfcsteve]

Should happen but won't because football in this country is all about politics. I'll say one thing for the way the GAA is run... centralised administration certainly keeps everyone generally pulling in the same direction. Too many little Chairman Mao's involved in Irish football, all wanting their little bit of power and glory. The people who really count - the players - are a mere after-thought. I'm currently trying to decide which of the two above mentioned teams to sign/ re-sign for. I shouldn't have to. Greystones is a small place, there should be the one Club, and my decision should be made for me

I'm not sure what you're advocating here paddigol.

Currently anyone can set up a football team and, if they're good enough, there's a space available and they get approved, can join a relevant league for themselves. And that's how it should be.

Are you suggesting their should be some higher authority telling amateur teams that they can and can't come into being ?

The day that happened would be the day football started to die...

[Riddickcule]

Are you suggesting their should be some higher authority telling amateur teams that they can and can't come into being ?

The day that happened would be the day football started to die...

Only if theres already a club(s) in the area. Then they shouldn't be allowed.