Germany vs England

[Oink]

Anyone else watching this.... cracker of a game for the neutral!

Upson and Terry :eek:

Germanys opening 25mins!!

Germany falling apart for no reason whatsoever :eek:

The lino not seeing the ball cross over the line :eek:

Classic stuff! God I wish I was home to watch the RTE or the BBC panel for entertainment!

[tricky_colour]

Terrible decision reminiscent of 1966, history repeating itself, I though it was over but was not 100% sure.
SO I guess England will know how Ireland felt now.
If England lose they can at least say they were robbed.

[Sullivinho]

Superb game. Delivering everything it promised.

I wonder what the Welsh and Norn Iron FA's make of the controversy?

IFAB my @ss.

[Oink]

Looks like the game is gonna produce a red..... have a sneaking suspicion it'll be a German on the recieving end and we could go to pens.

[Noelys Guitar]

Could have been 10-1. And even if the Lampard's goal would have stood Germany would have just stepped up their extra 3 gears. And I'd love to invest in the Doner Kebab Restaurant that Gareth Barry spends all his time in. FFS. My granny can run faster than him.

[Noelys Guitar]

Terry has been a cart horse the whole tournament. Look at his reaction after the half assed attempt on Klose for the first goal. Bobby Moore would be turning in his grave if he could watch this chancer. As for the the Beckham circus. In comparison to the German's most of the English players look outdated, unfit and really, really poor footballers.

[Schumi]

The better team won by a fair margin. England's passing was hopeless, their defence couldn't deal with the Germans' pace and they didn't look organised at all; there were huge gaps whenever Germany broke.

[shakermaker1982]

Hope the guys on here who backed em to win the WC didn't lose too much.

I was in stitches at times watching that bunch of jokers. Their defence was bad but the midfield was just as woeful. Lampard, Gerrard, Barry and Milner waste possession time and time again. The BBC were saying beforehand you wouldn't really swap any English players for a German & I nearly choked on my drink. They soon changed their tune at FT.

[shakermaker1982]

Please tell me RTE are laying into em properly? Looking forward to watching it on youtube later on.

[Sullivinho]

Please tell me RTE are laying into em properly? Looking forward to watching it on youtube later on.

Sadly lacking Dunphy on this occasion, unfortunately.

[shakermaker1982]

Sadly lacking Dunphy on this occasion, unfortunately.

Gutted. What were they thinking?!

[Schumi]

Anyone that can get BBC Radio 5-Live, stick it on. Hilarious moaning. The German goalie is a cheat apparently, just like footballers in their private lives. :D

[shakermaker1982]

Anyone that can get BBC Radio 5-Live, stick it on. Hilarious moaning. The German goalie is a cheat apparently, just like footballers in their private lives. :D

What did the keeper do?!

[Noelys Guitar]

Marty Tyler reckons Rio would have made all the difference. Beam me up Scottie. And sharpish. Now its too many foreign players. FFS.

[elroy]

Capello is getting it in the neck from the likes of (arrogant) Mullery and Butcher on SSN now. Apparently, a british manager like Arry is the man to solve all their problems now. No doubt the manager has to take some of the blame, players like Gerrard played out of position, the persistance with Heskey etc etc. Something went seriously wrong with this team from where they were at the end of qualifying and the start of this WC.

In fairness to the few fans they have interviewed, they have got it right, never mind the disallowed goal, abject performance from a team that did not show enough passion or desire representing their country. Didnt even go and acknowledge the fans after the match by all accounts. A team no longer in touch with its public??

Impressive from Germany. Three of their goals were real team goals and a delight to watch. The potential of a counter attacking contest against Argentina next weekend is something to look forward to.

Perhaps there is something in the culture argument, the culture that doesnt like to see players dwelling on the ball, a culture that doesnt instill confidence in a player on the ball. In truth a culture that we operate in ourselves.

On the disallowed goal, now England know how we felt to an extent. It will be interesting to see if there will be any change in FIFA's stance now considering it involves a big association. I suspect it wont, particularly considering the overall result of the game.

[tricky_colour]

The English defense was like shredded sauerkraut

[Schumi]

What did the keeper do?!

Didn't tell the ref that the shot was over the line!

[Stuttgart88]

Could have been 10-1. And even if the Lampard's goal would have stood Germany would have just stepped up their extra 3 gears. I don't agree. Germany had lost their composure and there's no guaranteeing they'd have got it back if England were playing confidently. Goals 3 and 4 were breakaways which may not have happened at 2-2. Don't forget England hit the bar at 2-1.

However, there's absolutely no doubt the more adept team won. Right from the first minute England were laboured in possession and their first touch was shambolic. Trevor Brooking is 100% right when he bemoans lack of technique in the English game despite their good performances at underage tournaments. Engaland nearly scored from 2 set pieces which is par for the course. They got nowhere near the German goal by playing skillfully, except for maybe Gerrard's late effort.

I have to admit I bought into the hype to a large extent this time around but, controversy aside, it's the same old story - lack of ball retention, which comes from bad technique. In fact it was worse this time, as some of the individual performances - and from famous players - were lauaghable.

[Stuttgart88]

Perhaps there is something in the culture argument, the culture that doesnt like to see players dwelling on the ball, a culture that doesnt instill confidence in a player on the ball. In truth a culture that we operate in ourselves.

On the disallowed goal, now England know how we felt to an extent. It will be interesting to see if there will be any change in FIFA's stance now considering it involves a big association. I suspect it wont, particularly considering the overall result of the game.Bang on, but as long as there's decent money to be made from making it in England it'll never change.

It'll be really interestring to see how Blatter ducks out of the technology issue now. I'm very cautious about it myself, but this is at least one area where virtually none of the "anti technology" arguments apply.

[The Fly]

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2301/outofafrica.jpg

[OwlsFan]

I agree with Stutts. That disallowed goal was important - one can never say how it would have gone after that. I would be gutted if I were an English fan. Sure Germany were the better team but that doesn't mean their would have won as their 3rd and 4th goals were catching England on the break. What was the point in England pushing so many players up for Lampard's shot since he wasn't going to cross the ball and they then get caught on the break. Capello has a lot to answer for and as for bringing on Heskey with 15 minutes to go - baffling.

As for the anti-BBC Panel brigade, they must be very disappointed as they were very scathing of the whohe team performance from manager to players to system.

Shaker, why did you want to hear what Dunphy says? Isn't is predictable except he wont mention that he recommended people to back England before the tournament! I am sure he is being kept back for this evening so he can really lay in once the game was over. I thought it was great to see that Brady still felt the anger and hate most of us still feel for Blatter. It was palpable.

[bennocelt]

I agree with Stutts. That disallowed goal was important - one can never say how it would have gone after that. I would be gutted if I were an English fan. Sure Germany were the better team but that doesn't mean their would have won as their 3rd and 4th goals were catching England on the break. What was the point in England pushing so many players up for Lampard's shot since he wasn't going to cross the ball and they then get caught on the break. Capello has a lot to answer for and as for bringing on Heskey with 15 minutes to go - baffling.

As for the anti-BBC Panel brigade, they must be very disappointed as they were very scathing of the whohe team performance from manager to players to system.
.


No matter about the goal that wasnt was.............England still had 45 minutes of a game to do something. They were rubbish in all their games.

And the BBC only slashed into the team AFTER they were knocked out...........................

[Stuttgart88]

BBC R5 Live was quiteb good just now (nearly 7pm) - David Pleat criticising England's "straight line" football and the whole English footballing culture. The writing was on the wall in May, when both Mexico and Japan outplayed them. Japan & Korea are motre techgnically adept than England.

Did Martin Tyler really blame foreigners? Foreigners set the standard in the EPL and allow the few English players with real talent to shine.

Schweinsteiger was a joy to watch tonight. I hope Darron Gibson was taking notes. I also hope Wim Koevermans knows the shortfalls of the UK / Irish way of developing players.

[MikeBassett]

Capello has to take SOME of the blame for this but ultimately England were not good enough and never were going to be good enough to win this World Cup because they simply did not have the players to do it. They have a lot of useless players, a lot of average players, only a few players who would get into the best sides in the tournament (Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Rooney, maybe Lampard). But Rooney had a nightmare World Cup and today was his worst performance of the four, Gerrard has never played Left Midfield, Rooney had an awful tournament for some reason, Lampard is nearing the end of his time.

How the hell was Glen Johnson left on for 87 minutes, the man was absolutely sh1te!! £20 million me boll1x. He should have clipped Sweinsteiger's ankle and taken a yellow card in the build-up to the 3rd Germany goal. England's wingers don't play on the wings week in week out which doesn't help at all. Capello left Adam Johnson at home and refused to play Joe Cole from the start.

Not once during the qualifying campaign did Capello play the starting team that England went with in the Slovenia and Germany (Even if you don't include Ferdinand/Upson in that, not once did the other 10 ever start a qualifying game together). Also I'm fairly sure Defoe and Milner started none of the qualifiers.

The subs England had had nothing to offer either - SWP, Heskey(how he played nearly all the qualifiers and friendlies is unbelievably mind boggling!), Carra is well past it, Carrick is brutal, Crouch is not good enough, King is crocked...

[Stuttgart88]

Just a point on the Lampard "goal": I presume it's well known among football watchers (I can't be alone in noticing it) that when a shot hits the underside of the bar and bounces straight down, the spin on the ball takes the ball back into play. I always use as a "rule of thumb" how far the ball bounces back into play to form an instinctive idea as to how close the ball was to the line. In this instance the ball bounced back up into the crossbar and if I was ref I'd have given the goal on that basis alone. It's just a fact of physics.

[elroy]

Momentum is huge and with two goals in two mins, even the germans wouldve been rattled. Who knows?? Yes the germans were by far the better team but at that point England wouldve been rampant and its not inconceivable that they wouldve even gone ahead before half time. The Germans didnt exactly look rock solid at the back themselves. Having said that, even if England were allowed the goal, it still doesnt excuse how poor they were defensively. John T was caught extremely deep for at least two of the goals which left them exposed for, 1 the long ball goal and 2, on the break at the third goal.

On the bounce of the ball, on first viewing i wouldve said the ball wasnt over the line the way it bounced straight back up and hit the bar, so although it might have credence I think using the general bounce of the ball to determine if the ball was over the line are not is far from definitive.

Another shocker this evening in the Mexico game which has seriously swung the game in Argentinas favour. Tevez well offside for the first goal, not even a doubt about it. But it was interesting to note that the linesman and ref appeared to see the replay on the large screen and realised how wrong they were but still refused to disallow the goal.

[Sullivinho]

But it was interesting to note that the linesman and ref appeared to see the replay on the large screen and realised how wrong they were but still refused to disallow the goal.

God forbid it should be proven how fast and effective video technology is. Can't be having that!

Incidentally, Sepp Blatter was clearly offside here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu7i5CJq3mg

[Noelys Guitar]

Look at the England players at the end of the game compared to the South Korean's and American's after their losses. Shrugs from the England players and swapping of jerseys. They knew they never put in a decent shift. Too many professional bluffers on that England team. And Germany won't beat Argentina. So they will have gone out with two draws against the US and Algeria. A slender win against Slovenia. And a loss to a team that will almost certainly get knocked out in the quarters themselves.

[back of the net]

Just a point on the Lampard "goal": I presume it's well known among football watchers (I can't be alone in noticing it) that when a shot hits the underside of the bar and bounces straight down, the spin on the ball takes the ball back into play. I always use as a "rule of thumb" how far the ball bounces back into play to form an instinctive idea as to how close the ball was to the line. In this instance the ball bounced back up into the crossbar and if I was ref I'd have given the goal on that basis alone. It's just a fact of physics.

Your comment is fair stutts but on the basis of the ball bouncing back up onto the top bar , i wud have thought it was more a goal. I dont blame the ref or the linesman for missing it, but it yet again it calls for video technology.

Germany were by far the better team over the 90mins and especially over the first 30mins BUT as they say Goals change games , and whereas england still probably wud have lost ....its the "ya never know" factor that still will linger , in the same way we "MAY" have beaten france on penos.


Watching argentinas first goal tonite against mexico and wat b*llsh*t it was......i just felt annoyed and embarassed for football

[tetsujin1979]

anyone else think it's ironic that Blatter saw Lampard's goal that wasn't given on the replay in his private box?

[tricky_colour]

Clearly technology, ie more and better cameras is exposing more and more mistakes made by officials, when a goal or lack thereof is disputed the ref should have access to video technology via an official, also in other key decisions such as sending offs.
It is getting quite farcical the number of potentially game changing decisions which are being shown to be wrong.

[osarusan]

I thought that had Lampard's goal been given, England would have bossed the game until the break. The Germans were clearly and deeply rattled, worryingly for them.

However, after the break, England had 45 minutes in which they simply HAD TO perform, or they were out. But they didn't. Whether it's a technical or a mental problem, they were not able to perform. They must have known after the group stage games that they needed to raise the performance, or they'd be out, but they turned in another pretty rudderless and spineless 90 minutes.

Southgate made an interesting point on ITV's hightlights tonight - saying how 5 of the German U-21 team from the last Euro (or was it World) championships were in the squad, with 4 playing, whereas England had only Milner and Hart. Basically, they German U-21 players got a lot of game time to help them develop (not all did, obviously), whereas with stakes so high in England (in terms of getting sacked after just a few games) managers don't want to risk selecting these players.

[ArdeeBhoy]

FATTYK!

N.Muntz springs to mind. if only for all their patronising 'meedja'.

[Noelys Guitar]

Outside of Ireland and the UK England are looked on as similar to the Danes, Swiss, Sweden, Austria etc, etc. They are not feared or ever talked about as World Cup winners. Nobody, especially the South American's take them seriously. What exactly do they bring to the World Cup? The self-pitying crap does not travel well. I feel sorry for people like Lampard who did put in a shift. But Germany should have been 4-0 up before England scored. And anyone who thinks the Germans would have cracked if the legitimate Lampard 2nd goal had of been given is watching too much Sky.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought that had Lampard's goal been given, England would have bossed the game until the break. The Germans were clearly and deeply rattled, worryingly for them.
I'm not so sure about this. You have to take into account how quickly the two England goals came - weren't they like 53 seconds apart? Once the goal was disallowed, the Germans reverted to type. They were clever and closed the half out without giving anything else up. They were mature from that point on, even when England dominated the first 10-15 minutes of the second half.

I wouldn't say the goal being disallowed was irrelevant, but I think in the context of the game Germany showed a maturity and composure that England didn't and that, in my estimation, would have won them the game regardless.

[tetsujin1979]

I feel sorry for people like Lampard who did put in a shift.
He was slightly less anonymous than usual, I forgot he was playing against Algeria until he came over to take a corner. Barely noticed him against the USA and Slovenia. If it wasn't for the goal-that-wasn't I probabl wouldn't have noticed him tonight either.

[tetsujin1979]

away from the discussion of the game, it struck me that Capello speaking to Scholes about going to the World Cup meant he didn't think the midfield players he had were up to the challenge of playing in the tournament. Had Scholes gone, where would have played, and who would have been dropped?

[Noelys Guitar]

I agree about the Algeria game (and the US game). But for me he showed up tonight. He is not a world class player and never will be. But unlike spoofers like Ashley Cole, Terry and Gerard he at least showed for the ball and tried to change the game. How bad was Cole over the four games? A disgrace to himself and football. And Gerard has never been and never will be anything other than a Bell, Lee, and various other England players throughout the 70's/80's/90]s. No guile/wit. And i don't believe for a second that Mourinho is trying to sign him.

[The Fly]

:D

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8381/2zp2qag.jpg

[ArdeeBhoy]

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2301/outofafrica.jpg

Can you re-submit please?


And now even that pr*ck Cameron calling for 'goal-line technology'! Though as he's posh, very posh Scot, will forgive marginally.

[shakermaker1982]

I agree with Stutts. That disallowed goal was important - one can never say how it would have gone after that. I would be gutted if I were an English fan. Sure Germany were the better team but that doesn't mean their would have won as their 3rd and 4th goals were catching England on the break. What was the point in England pushing so many players up for Lampard's shot since he wasn't going to cross the ball and they then get caught on the break. Capello has a lot to answer for and as for bringing on Heskey with 15 minutes to go - baffling.

As for the anti-BBC Panel brigade, they must be very disappointed as they were very scathing of the whohe team performance from manager to players to system.

Shaker, why did you want to hear what Dunphy says? Isn't is predictable except he wont mention that he recommended people to back England before the tournament! I am sure he is being kept back for this evening so he can really lay in once the game was over. I thought it was great to see that Brady still felt the anger and hate most of us still feel for Blatter. It was palpable.

I don't like Dunphy but I think he'd have really gone to town on that mob in an entertaining manner last night. We all know Dunphy's opinions change like the wind but backing England just before the tournament shows he hasn't got a clue but we all knew that anyway!

It continues to amaze me time after time that 'experts' still think that English side is made up of top class international players who can perform as a team at a major tournament.

To be fair to the fans over here this time around they were a little bit realistic with their expectations. The media tried to ram it down their throats (sell more papers, ad space etc?) but most English football fans I know (mates & colleagues) knew they'd have done well if they got to a Q Final again.

Stevie Me tried to win the game on his own. Disgraceful selfish performance.

Tets - if Scholes had agreed to come back (now Scholes was world class in his prime and even at 35 he'd still have improved that team because he wouldn't give the ball away, take note Barry, Lampard & Gerrard) I think he'd have taken Barry's space in front of the back 4 but because his legs have gone he'd have to have had played 5 in MF with Rooney up top on his own.

[endabob1]

Lampard was angry at the error but added: "Maybe we showed a bit of desperation and naivety in trying to push and push. We were caught on sucker punches in counter-attacks. It is the story of the game: nobody can stand here and tell me Germany were a lot better than us. They were not 4-1 better than us. But things have conspired against us. Maybe we have conspired against ourselves at times, but it just didn't go for us."


Deluded or what? Lampard is a fraud of a footballer, his whole game is about blasting the ball whenever he's within 30 yards of goal, it's all about him. Fortunately for him Chelsea set their team up around him so it plays to his strengths, with England he consistently fails to perform because he's actually expected to play.
Capello should have dropped either Lampard or Gerrard to bring balance to that midfield, it's been clear for years. I'd have had Carrick (or Tom Huddlestone) in there too as he can keep the ball, something very few other England player seems capable of. Joe Cole on the left as he sprovides something different and comes in behind the strikers leaving space for Ashley Cole to get forward and Lennon wide right. The key then is to pick a right back who will stay back, like Corluka at Spurs, he doesn't get forward too much and take up the same space as the winger, Johnson kept doing it in the first 2 games.
The lack of pace in the centre of Englands back 4 was a major problem, even when fit King isn't as quick as he used to be but I would have him ahead of any of the other pretenders.

To me it's patently obvious when you go through the team they were never going to be contenders, refusal to put faith in youth meant that James was the preferred choice in Goal when Joe Hart should have been [property blooded in the warm up games.
The back 4 is paper thin, no real cover for either full back and agonizingly slow centre backs meant that against pace they were always in trouble.
The midfield is completely unbalanced by trying to shoehorn in 2 identikit players and up front the striking option of Rooney and one other from Heskey, Crouch or Defoe. Hesky does provide a foil for Rooney but this means you have 2 players in the team for one position, if Rooney doesn't play well (which he hasn't been) then there are no goals in the front 2.
If Crouch plays the temptation to smack long balls to him is too much to resist, he's fine as a late option of the bench but no more in my opinion, Defoe is quick and sharp and at least encourages England to move the ball quickly, he has his faults, he's offside way too much, and is a bit of an Andy Cole, hit and hope merchant, that siad of the 4 he was the best option but it says a lot about the state of England's squad that it's the case!

The BBC comment quoted here that none of the Germans would make the England team is laughable, I was actually doing the same thing (because our commentator said as the team were walking out that the English players play at a higher level, as the camera panned over Upson & James) & I ended up with 7 Germans and 4 English!!

[bennocelt]

Wouldnt Bent have been an option, better than Heskey anyway. Im not a fan of Bent, but he has had a good season with over 20 goals. How many goals did Heskey get last season?

[ifk101]

I think you have to point the finger at Capello.

When England got the ball there wasn't any clear gameplan set in motion. By this I mean it didn't look like England had identified how they could beat the Germans. It was more a case of finding somebody to pass the ball to and keep possession rather than looking to do something constructive with the ball. As already been stated, a fundamental problem England have is that their first touch is very heavy. At the highest level of the game, they are not capable of controlling the pace of the game because they lack the technical ability to do so. Capello wants to bring a continental style into the English game but you probably can't do that with senior English internationals that already have a set way of playing. Changing how the England team plays at senior level is something that takes time and needs to be addressed at grassroot levels. What Capello didn't do is played to the strengths that makes his squad important players in their respective clubs and league.

Barry was exposed for the average footballer he is but I don't think England had a set plan to deal with the German midfield. With Germany playing three in the middle, it looked like England's centre halves were in two minds as to whether they should offer support to Barry and Lampard in midfield or if they should keep a more rigid positioning. The first two goals Germany scored were clear examples of poor positioning and a lack of basic organisation.

I don't understand why Capello replaced Milner with Cole. Milner was the player offering England width while Cole likes to dribble inside. It seems that once the clock hit the 60min mark Capello had decided that he needed to make a sub. I didn't see any pressing reason for making that change other than it being a change made for the sake of making a change. England up to that point in the second half were the better team and had Germany on the back foot. Bringing on Cole handed the game back to the Germans.

[Den Perry]

Some fool texted / emailed the Ray D'Arcy show this morning and said someting along the lines of "i'm not an England fan or anything, but Klose was a mile offside for his goal,"

This is just evidence of the type of know all idiot who texts this show to complain.Obviously the fool didn't know you can't be offside for a goal kick. And the fool reading it(i.e Ray D'arcy) didn't know it either. Yet he is the one who will compare footballers to rugby players and hurlers, and bitch about soccer, and he doesn't even know the rules. It doesn't say much for the clowns editing the texts / mails either

[tetsujin1979]

Tets - if Scholes had agreed to come back (now Scholes was world class in his prime and even at 35 he'd still have improved that team because he wouldn't give the ball away, take note Barry, Lampard & Gerrard) I think he'd have taken Barry's space in front of the back 4 but because his legs have gone he'd have to have had played 5 in MF with Rooney up top on his own.
Possibly, but that would leave the side without a defensive player in the middle of the park (assuming Milner stayed on the right). Scholes' lack of tackling ability is the stuff of legend. Personally, I think Lampard would have been the one sacrificed. Capello hasshown he's willing to play Gerrard on the left. He's terrible there, but Capello will at least move him, Lampard has never played anywhere other than central midfield.

Another point, I still think he'll be managing England in the European Championship qualifiers, but hypothetically if Capello is sacked or resigns after this, he'll still have a string of top European clubs looking for his signature as manager. How many of England's players have enhanced their reputations after the World Cup, and how many of them can look for move to the same clubs? Think about that when you look for who to blame.

[osarusan]

if Capello is sacked or resigns after this, he'll still have a string of top European clubs looking for his signature as manager. How many of England's players have enhanced their reputations after the World Cup, and how many of them can look for move to the same clubs? Think about that when you look for who to blame.

Capello will be a sought-after manager because of what he's achieved prior to this world cup. It certainly hasn't enhanced his reputation.

He may escape a certain amount of criticsim because of the idea that he's a coach of such talent that this england campaign simply had to be down to the faults of the players, but the fact remains that he took a squad of decent, good and excellent players to the WC and failed to get to them to play to their potential. He has to accept at least part responsibility for that.

[pineapple stu]

Did Martin Tyler really blame foreigners? Foreigners set the standard in the EPL and allow the few English players with real talent to shine.
I don't really agree with this, actually. I think it is very much at the root of the problem. (Though I should firstly point out that it's not Johnny Foreigner per se, but the quick-fix, need results now mentality in English football.)

Firstly, the pool of English players is smaller than German, Spanish and Italian players. This (http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/FA_Premier_League_2009-2010/Stats/Nationalities/) notes that 38% of players (265) in the Premiership were English (I assume the total includes every player who made an appearance). That compares to 49% (275) of Bundesliga players who are German (http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/Bundesliga_2009-2010/Stats/Nationalities/), 59% (375) of Serie A players who are Italian (http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/Serie_A_2009-2010/Stats/Nationalities/) and 66% (386) of La Liga players who are Spanish (http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/La_Liga_2009-2010/Stats/Nationalities/) (just to look at the big four leagues). In addition, there are 7 Germans playing in the other three leagues, 16 Italians, 20 Spanish and 2 English (trivia question - name the two?). So if we assume that, to be considered for the national squad, you must be playing at the top level in one of those four leagues, you have a pool of 267 English players, 282 Germans, 391 Italians and 406 Spanish players; Germany lags behind in absolute terms cos there's only 18 teams in the Bundesliga and 20 in the other three leagues. So first factor - England have a noticeably smaller pool of players to pick from.

The reason for this - I think, and feel free to counter-argue - is that there is a more marked "do or die, winner takes all, relegation means losing this massive amount of money" mentality in England than in the other three. If you're just above relegation, you splash out the cash on a new player to help you improve. That new player will more than likely come from abroad and so not be English.

It's all well and good to say that if an English player is good enough, he'll make the team anyway, and these quality players will only improve the local game, but I don't actually agree with that at all. At UCD, we're constantly producing quality young players. Players don't improve by playing in the stiffs, they don't improve by playing against good quality players in training - they improve by being given the time to develop in the first team, in a competitive environment. So I do think that by going for the quick fix of a couple of million on a new foreign player at the expense of giving a home-grown player time to develop, the national team is being hindered.

I'm sure footballing culture comes into it as well - the lack of coaching credentials among English managers compared to abroad, for example, must hinder the national team. But don't underestimate the negative impact of simply not playing English players in the Premiership.

[shakermaker1982]

Possibly, but that would leave the side without a defensive player in the middle of the park (assuming Milner stayed on the right). Scholes' lack of tackling ability is the stuff of legend. Personally, I think Lampard would have been the one sacrificed. Capello hasshown he's willing to play Gerrard on the left. He's terrible there, but Capello will at least move him, Lampard has never played anywhere other than central midfield.

Another point, I still think he'll be managing England in the European Championship qualifiers, but hypothetically if Capello is sacked or resigns after this, he'll still have a string of top European clubs looking for his signature as manager. How many of England's players have enhanced their reputations after the World Cup, and how many of them can look for move to the same clubs? Think about that when you look for who to blame.

Scholes plays in front of back 4 at Man Utd now so he could have gone down that route. He'd need a Carrick to do his leg work for him (maybe Barry) but I don't think he'd have dropped Lampard. I would have ditched Lamps personally long ago. I reckon Capello would have opted for this.....

-Rooney

Gerrard - Lampard - Carrick - Lennon

-Scholes

[Stuttgart88]

Pineapple Stu, my point was more that players Like Gerrard & Lampard would be unable to shine like they have done if they were relying on the likes of Barry and players of a similar standard as teammates. Instead Gerrard had players like Alonso, Mascherano and Hamann while Lampard has had Essien, Makele and general quality all around him for the last 5 years. Would the so called Gerrard Miracle of 2005 have been possible without Hamann, Alonso & Smicer (not to mention Dudek, Gerrard's dive and unmentioned gift of a 3rd goal to Milan :))?