Germany vs England

[Dodge]

Except the Gerrard miracle only happened when Benitiez pushed him to right back to accomodte hamann (after Liverpool were overran in the first half)...

I honestly believe the media (particularly sky) have their part to play in this. Gerrard is a good quality international player (but no more) but he's hyped beyond hype. This year at Liverpool he had to cope without Alonso and his limits were shown. Likewise Lampard has always had a ball winer with him at Chelsea (makele, Essien) but when asked to do it himself he's simply not up to it. Then they wonder why both players don't do it for England? (and to prove its not limited to English players, Sky consistently talk about Fabregas as the "best midfielder in the world" yet he can't get in the Spanish team ahead of Xavi, Iniesat, Alonso and even Busquets (in an obviously different role)

The English team is made up of players who aren't close to being the best players for their team (bar Rooney) yet even players like Glen Johnson are called "one of the greatest attacking right fulls in the world". its bizarre.

[dantheman]

http://yfrog.com/j1getattachmentaspxkqjhttp://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5089/getattachmentaspxkq.jpghttp://yfrog.com/j1getattachmentaspxkqj

[Stuttgart88]

Roy Keane was just priceless on Sky Sports News. I normally have no time for his rent-a-gob comments, but he was just asked about the team spirit, the manager and all that at England, especially given his experience in '02. Cue ice cold stare, followed by "what sources? what comments?" and then saying his "issue" was about lack of organisation and being accused of faking injury, but adding he had no issue with the team. Please don't use this post to start another Saipan debate!

He then went on to support Capello ("great manager", "genius 6 weeks ago") and said - as we all know - that good players don't necessarily make good teams. The next bit was best though: you've got to blame the players. Who are these world class players anyway? Rooney, yes - great season. James - no, didn't have a great season. Johnson, no. Terry, poor season - Chelsea's attackers won the league not him. Upson - nearly got relegated, Green - nearly got relegated. Cole - in fairness, just back from injury. Gerrard - poor season, Heskey - 3 goals, says it all, Milner - good season, Barry - poor season. So who are these "great" players? I didn't see any!

He was bang on really - pretty much saying what Dodge said!

[Dodge]

I feel dirty

[ArdeeBhoy]

England just aren't very good. Even their supposed 'Golden Generation'. And long may it continue.

[Stuttgart88]

Michael Owen blames the formation and tactics in today's Telegraph, and saying nobody can tell him that England's players aren't as good as Germany's. Can I start? Nobody in England's team is as good as Schweinsteiger (class yesterday), Lahm and Oezil. Owen says this every year. It's like Alan Shearer in WC2006 (can't remember was it at the semi-final or final stage) when he said that there isn't a player left in the tournament who'd get in England's team. God it's funny sometimes. Shearer was in denial again yesterday: hugely critical of the performance but blaming it on something being wrong in the camp. Maybe they "eh..uh...just didn't get stuck in" (to paraphrase his hapless explanation for being 2-0 down to Croatia at half-time in 2007).

[pineapple stu]

Pineapple Stu, my point was more that players Like Gerrard & Lampard would be unable to shine like they have done if they were relying on the likes of Barry and players of a similar standard as teammates.
Mis-read slightly you on that, but I do think that the amount of foreigners in the Premiership is hurting the national team as well. So yeah, Gerrard is a Champions' League winner not because he's great, but because of the others in the squad alright. But if you buy in a player in a time of crisis over giving the young players a chance, then the young players will never develop fully.

(So we're kind of agreeing with each other to an extent, I think)

[Charlie Darwin]

Michael Owen blames the formation and tactics in today's Telegraph, and saying nobody can tell him that England's players aren't as good as Germany's. Can I start? Nobody in England's team is as good as Schweinsteiger (class yesterday), Lahm and Oezil. Owen says this every year. It's like Alan Shearer in WC2006 (can't remember was it at the semi-final or final stage) when he said that there isn't a player left in the tournament who'd get in England's team. God it's funny sometimes. Shearer was in denial again yesterday: hugely critical of the performance but blaming it on something being wrong in the camp. Maybe they "eh..uh...just didn't get stuck in" (to paraphrase his hapless explanation for being 2-0 down to Croatia at half-time in 2007).
This would be the same Michael Owen who said not a single member of the Croatian side would get into an England team shortly after they'd roundly beat them twice in Euro qualifiers. It's a conceit that goes right to the heart of England's continued failure in international football.


At UCD, we're constantly producing quality young players. Players don't improve by playing in the stiffs, they don't improve by playing against good quality players in training - they improve by being given the time to develop in the first team, in a competitive environment. So I do think that by going for the quick fix of a couple of million on a new foreign player at the expense of giving a home-grown player time to develop, the national team is being hindered.
This is a very good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this positive approach to football has only come about since Pete Mahon left? UCD and Bray don't have the best raw materials around but they seem to have managers and club structures that encourage an emphasis on technique and adventure. Perhaps it is, as your analysis imply, that yo-yo clubs have less to lose by adopting this approach.

[pineapple stu]

No, we've always been throwing youngsters into the first team; it's part of the club's ethos (partly cos it's all we can afford!).

[Charlie Darwin]

Ah, I went to see yous a few times when a couple of people I knew were in the team and you played some awful football. The team this year might actually be weaker but they put in better performances.

[Dodge]

I watched the match on the BBC yesterday and the commentator trotted out that "man for man, you'd only take 1 or 2 Germans, wouldn't you?"

Embaressing lack of knowledge shown up again

[pineapple stu]

Ah, I went to see yous a few times when a couple of people I knew were in the team and you played some awful football. The team this year might actually be weaker but they put in better performances.
Oh, football style? "Proper" football has always been the aim of the club. We've achieved it with varying success. Martin Moran had us playing lovely stuff (1999-2001). Pete got us playing good stuff at times, but the gap between us and some of the over-spending teams was enormous at times, so we had no choice but to go more defensive really. Doolin - well...


I watched the match on the BBC yesterday and the commentator trotted out that "man for man, you'd only take 1 or 2 Germans, wouldn't you?"

Embaressing lack of knowledge shown up again
I enjoyed the English free-kick just before the Germans' third goal. "A flimsy looking wall there from Germany - only four in it". The wall blocked the free and Germany went straight down the pitch and scored.

[OwlsFan]

Every country probably thinks their own players are better than most others. We don't know what the Germans were saying pre-match about their (they were probably right though). God knows we suffer from it here. Not long ago I heard my friend Dunphy saying we had 5 or 6 "world class players" (Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, Doyle and another I can't recall) in the team. Given apart, the others are journeymen Premiership players so let's not throw stones at our friends across the water. The BBC panel went all gilesish/dunphyish at the end. "Hopeless", "ridiculous", "scandalous defending", "terrible", filled the airwaves.

[Stuttgart88]

I enjoyed the English free-kick just before the Germans' third goal. "A flimsy looking wall there from Germany - only four in it". The wall blocked the free and Germany went straight down the pitch and scored.That was funny alright.

I watched UCD for several years (I was studying there and I was boycotting Tolka!) and they have always been a great example of playing the right way. They had lovely attacking players in my day, Peter Hanrahan, Mark McKenna (quality), Mick Kavanagh...

[Charlie Darwin]

Every country probably thinks their own players are better than most others. We don't know what the Germans were saying pre-match about their (they were probably right though). God knows we suffer from it here. Not long ago I heard my friend Dunphy saying we had 5 or 6 "world class players" (Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, Doyle and another I can't recall) in the team. Given apart, the others are journeymen Premiership players so let's not throw stones at our friends across the water. The BBC panel went all gilesish/dunphyish at the end. "Hopeless", "ridiculous", "scandalous defending", "terrible", filled the airwaves.
I'd be careful about describing a players who's never moved clubs as a "journeyman".

[tetsujin1979]

Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, Doyle and another I can't recall
Hard to call O'Shea and Duff journeymen. Duff's only played for four clubs in thirteen years of professional football. Only the 11 trophies between them (not counting the community shield)

[OwlsFan]

I think the term journeyman in professional sport refers to a player who has some experience but is not regarded as one of the top players. I don't think it means someone who has been to a lot of clubs. At least that's not the sense in which I used it.

[Dodge]

Roy Keane was just priceless on Sky Sports News. I normally have no time for his rent-a-gob comments, but he was just asked about the team spirit, the manager and all that at England, especially given his experience in '02. Cue ice cold stare, followed by "what sources? what comments?" and then saying his "issue" was about lack of organisation and being accused of faking injury, but adding he had no issue with the team. Please don't use this post to start another Saipan debate!

He then went on to support Capello ("great manager", "genius 6 weeks ago") and said - as we all know - that good players don't necessarily make good teams. The next bit was best though: you've got to blame the players. Who are these world class players anyway? Rooney, yes - great season. James - no, didn't have a great season. Johnson, no. Terry, poor season - Chelsea's attackers won the league not him. Upson - nearly got relegated, Green - nearly got relegated. Cole - in fairness, just back from injury. Gerrard - poor season, Heskey - 3 goals, says it all, Milner - good season, Barry - poor season. So who are these "great" players? I didn't see any!

He was bang on really - pretty much saying what Dodge said!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWShjpiX8lc

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm.

Like that clown would know anything about The World Cup!

[Dodge]

Like that clown would know anything about The World Cup!

Yep, he was only Ireland's player of the tournament in 1994

[tricky_colour]

Apparently the English players were not happy with the training pitch, bit hard ;)

Well nice to see Roy back on the telly, always has an opinion.

Was that today? Seems like it was, should be on again if that's the case/

[elroy]

Gerrard and Lampard do not play well together for England. Will Capello now bite the bullet and drop one of them?!?

The team needs serious freshening up! New GK, perhaps its time for them to start phasing Terry out (he was awful yday), need to find a decent holding midfielder, proper wingers (Lennon and Milner have the potential to step upto the mark) and a suitable partner for Rooney.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have a feeling Capello will drop the entire team and go back to Italy. This "two weeks" business seems to be a piece of theater set up to make it look like the FA is agonising over the decision to sack him.

[back of the net]

Forget about Goal line technology - this is the way forward :D

http://www.balls.ie/2010/06/29/ze-germans-4-1-england-in-lego-what-else/


On the Roy comments -- think he said it y'day. I have no time for the verbal nonsense he has been spouting to the media regulary for the last while BUT my mate told me to listen to what he said on capello and the english team y'day and i have to say he was absolutely right this time.

The fact that he said to the english media , was even better - im sure they didnt like it but thats makes it even better

[tetsujin1979]

Tom Humphries on the failure of the Premier League to produce English players, compared to the young German players getting game time in the Bundesliga: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0629/1224273557820.html

[The Fly]

Can you re-submit please?


http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz83/kyleNI/OutofAfrica.jpg

[The Fly]

Priceless.......;)

http://vimeo.com/12916007


http://vimeo.com/12916007

[The Fly]

Tony Cascarino's 'unbiased' punditry goes from bad............

http://community.footballpools.com/blog/2010/06/25/tony-cascarino-improving-england-to-beat-overrated-germans/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+pundits-corner+%28Pundits+Corner+-+Football+News+And+Gossip%29


to worse............:eek:

http://community.footballpools.com/blog/2010/06/28/cascarino-fa-should-start-afresh-gamble-on-shearer-for-england/

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yep, he was only Ireland's player of the tournament in 1994

Yeah, right. Me hole. Was at every game, he was ordinary.

[tetsujin1979]

Yeah, right. Me hole. Was at every game, he was ordinary.
indeed, your hole. He was voted Irish player of the tournament.

[Den Perry]

Humphries is so far up his own and the gaa's a**** that I can't take him seriously, even if he makes some sense

[Predator]

Tom Humphries on the failure of the Premier League to produce English players, compared to the young German players getting game time in the Bundesliga: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0629/1224273557820.htmlGood article. He makes a great, if obvious, point.

[OwlsFan]

Roy Keane was just priceless on Sky Sports News. He then went on to support Capello ("great manager", "genius 6 weeks ago") and said - as we all know - that good players don't necessarily make good teams.

Ah, a manager blaming the players rather than the manager. So the Sunderland players he signed must have been brutul at the end of his reign there - nothing to do with the manager. The Ipswich team of what appeared to be better than average Championship players, were also to blame for their woeful performances in the Championship - not the manager. It's all clear now.

Don't blame Capello ? His system. Playing Gerrard out of position. Playing Emile Heskey. Playing a goalkeeper first game that wouldn't have been many other people's choice. No, don't blame the Manager. It's all the players' fault. Remind me who said that again. Oh yes, a manager.


Good article. He makes a great, if obvious, point.


"We know that well looking in from an Irish perspective. Gifted player after gifted player has been denied the break and the time they needed. Richie Partridge was once the next big thing at Anfield. He played one senior game for the club, a 7-0 win over Stoke City. Not enough to earn a second game. Willo Flood in his Man City days, Graham Barrett and later Anthony Stokes at Arsenal. Liam Miller when he moved to Manchester United. The list is endless".

These guys have now all got a chance at a lower level and have demonstrated that they are not up to it and I suspect that is the reason they were dumped by the bigger clubs unfortunately. His analogy doesn't hold water. It's not as if they came back to Ireland not having had a chance. They've had numerous chances and haven't made it alas.

[Predator]

Ah, a manager blaming the players rather than the manager. So the Sunderland players he signed must have been brutul at the end of his reign there - nothing to do with the manager. The Ipswich team of what appeared to be better than average Championship players, were also to blame for their woeful performances in the Championship - not the manager. It's all clear now.
Don't blame Capello ? His system. Playing Gerrard out of position. Playing Emile Heskey. Playing a goalkeeper first game that wouldn't have been many other people's choice. No, don't blame the Manager. It's all the players' fault. Remind me who said that again. Oh yes, a manager.
Of course, it's easy for a manager to blame the players, but in this instance, surely it must be acknowledged that the players were simply not good enough? I suppose that assertion may also be countered by saying that it is ultimately the manager's responsibility to select the best or most appropriate players. I would seek a middle ground and suggest that the responsibility for the poor showing must be shared. Capello's management during the World Cup was strange. He seemed to lack belief in his players, which, it seems, was the main factor behind his bizarre decisions; the fact that he didn't have a clear first choice 'keeper, the selection of Gerrard on the left wing, the continual selection of Heskey, the decision to bring Carragher out of retirement, the decision to play an unfit Barry. Then again, the players who are lucky enough to be selected, must stand up and be counted, something that they emphatically failed to do, both individually and as a team.


"We know that well looking in from an Irish perspective. Gifted player after gifted player has been denied the break and the time they needed. Richie Partridge was once the next big thing at Anfield. He played one senior game for the club, a 7-0 win over Stoke City. Not enough to earn a second game. Willo Flood in his Man City days, Graham Barrett and later Anthony Stokes at Arsenal. Liam Miller when he moved to Manchester United. The list is endless".

These guys have now all got a chance at a lower level and have demonstrated that they are not up to it and I suspect that is the reason they were dumped by the bigger clubs unfortunately. His analogy doesn't hold water. It's not as if they came back to Ireland not having had a chance. They've had numerous chances and haven't made it alas.I don't think it's as black and white as you claim and would agree with Humphries' fundamental point; that being that it is much easier to buy in 'established' talent, than to take a chance and nurture local talent. These players were evidently good enough at one stage, as is demonstrated by the fact that they were awarded contracts in the first place. I'm sure that being deemed surplus to requirements at a big club is bound to have a massively negative affect on a player's mentality and, in my opinion, mentality is as much a factor in making a career in football as having ability is.

[Charlie Darwin]

"We know that well looking in from an Irish perspective. Gifted player after gifted player has been denied the break and the time they needed. Richie Partridge was once the next big thing at Anfield. He played one senior game for the club, a 7-0 win over Stoke City. Not enough to earn a second game. Willo Flood in his Man City days, Graham Barrett and later Anthony Stokes at Arsenal. Liam Miller when he moved to Manchester United. The list is endless".[/I]

These guys have now all got a chance at a lower level and have demonstrated that they are not up to it and I suspect that is the reason they were dumped by the bigger clubs unfortunately. His analogy doesn't hold water. It's not as if they came back to Ireland not having had a chance. They've had numerous chances and haven't made it alas.
Were those players actually edged out by foreigners, though? I'm not so sure. Stokes, sure, but he still got a full season in the Premier League. Miller was kept out of the team by an Irishman and an Englishman. Flood got plenty of chances under Stuart Pearce but he just didn't fancy him (I think Willo also had a traumatic event that led to him leaving the club).

[Dodge]

I think he's stretching it by calling them gifted players too. There's a huge, huge leap from being a talented underage player to become a player who can play consistently for one of the biggest clubs in the world.

Of Course Humphries has called for the league here to be disbanded in the recent past, so he'd like to give full control of the development of our international future to these English clubs he now dismisses

[Stuttgart88]

C'mon OF, don't you think Keane listing the players one by one was pretty clinical? I enjoyed it. I'm not saying every word was right. Sure he said that he had no problem with his teammates in 2002, yet the whole thing blew up when he was critical of his teammates in you-know-who's artcle.

I won't even read Humphries on anything football related. He openly disses the sport - and Ireland's participation in it - yet thinks he's ****ing authority on it when he wants to be. Humphries' scoop in Saipan showed everyone where his priorities lied.

[The Fly]

Watch England lose.....in LEGO. :D

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/video/2010/jun/29/world-cup-2010-germany-england-brick-by-brick

[ArdeeBhoy]

indeed, your hole. He was voted Irish player of the tournament.
Well certain people, doubtless the usual suspects, were wholly misguided if they did. He certainly won no special plaudits from the fans who were actually there.

And nothing he's done in the last decade to suggest he knows little more than the current Ingerland squad, Steve Staunton or Sepp Bl*tter about the modern international game.

[Charlie Darwin]

By contrast, Ashley Cole was voted man of the match when England were humbled by Algeria, and Cristiano Ronaldo is voted man of the match every time he plays. It's not necessarily based on merit.

And anybody who voted anyone other than Paul McGrath as Ireland's best player at USA 94 needs to lay off the crack. Phil Babb had a great tournament too, and I believe Ray Houghton scored a goal at some point.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Keane was voted Ireland's player of WC2002 as well, such was his hold on the imaginations of 50% of the population.

[endabob1]

McGrath was so good in 94 he made Babb look international class.

Keane makes some accurate calls, his qualifications for judging players & managers performances are still a lot better than anyone on here and most of the bbc/sky/itv pundits. At least he's had the backbone to actually go into management, unlike 90% of TV pundits, and some of those that did try it have records so bad they make Keane look like Bob Paisley. He likes to voice his opinions on most things football related, sometimes I think he's way off the mark but on this he's on the money.

Of course the fall out from this is that while we have a bit of a chuckle at England's demise, the sobering thought is that virtually all our players come through the same system. Humphries article raises some good points, but as Stutts & Dodge have pointed out, he has previous form showing very different opinions, maybe he's had a road to Damascus type redemption but somehow I doubt it.

[newrynyuk]

Fool that I am, I've only just come across this thread now. But good grief, weren't England dire against Germany? It's a damming indictment that David James conceded 4 goals, and yet he was England's best player. The disallowed Lampard goal would have made no difference. Indeed Germany could have won by more, they clearly took their foot off the pedal after the 4th goal and coasted. But by then, England have given up anyway. Their best chance is gone, England will never win the World Cup again!

Fabio Capello is a winning manager who has had success at every club he has been at. If England can't win the World Cup with a top manager like Capello, who can? Hodgson? Redknapp? And as for those ludicrious suggestions of Devid Beckham...

But it's not just the manager, the team have to take the vast majority of the blame. These players are all kids who left school at 16 with no qualifications, who earn £50,000+ a week, who live in big mansions, own a fleet of fancy cars, and have women throwing themselves at them. Now, how many do you think are happy with that? And how many do you think are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to improve? To become a better player? To be a world champion?

The England team that started against Germany was basically the same team that played in Euro 2004. Virtually no new players have broken through and what's more, it's gonna get worse. With each passing season there are fewer and fewer English players in the Premier League. In the not too distant future, there is the prospect of England having to pick their squard from the Coca Cola championship. Can't see things improving. Not without a total overhaul of the coaching system stretching all the way back to primary school, where 10-year old kids are playing on full sized pitches with their PE teachers encouraging them to thump the ball upfield and chase after it. It's looking grim for England.

[Stuttgart88]

Of course the fall out from this is that while we have a bit of a chuckle at England's demise, the sobering thought is that virtually all our players come through the same system. We have different aspirations though. Their players and tactics were good enough to win 9 out of 10 games in qualifying, something we can only dream of. If our players' technique gets "found out" in a WC last 16 or last 8 anytime soon I'd bite your hand off!

And on England's criticism of 4-4-2, I think it suits us just fine - it allows our best players to be on the pitch in positions that suit them.

[ArdeeBhoy]

England just aren't very good. Short of Roy Race coming out of retirement.
Nothing to do with their manager, the PL or money in the game.
And even less about the pronouncement of Irish journos or the football pygmy that is now RMK.

It's all about delusions of grandeur, far above their station.

[endabob1]

We have different aspirations though. Their players and tactics were good enough to win 9 out of 10 games in qualifying, something we can only dream of. If our players' technique gets "found out" in a WC last 16 or last 8 anytime soon I'd bite your hand off!

And on England's criticism of 4-4-2, I think it suits us just fine - it allows our best players to be on the pitch in positions that suit them.

Blaming 442 is papering over the cracks, I've said elsewhere our player pool is small we select based on what we have and I agree 100% 442 suits our squad just dandy.

It should still act as a wake up call to the FAI who are happy to let our players be developed by clubs who do not have the interests of the Irish team anywhere in their list of priorities, I expect SI will not be the last player to turn his back on his country at a young age.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree totally that the FAI must be seriously concerned that we rely far too much on another jurisdiction's infrastructure to nurture talent for our national team. Perhaps Koeverman's appointment recognises this. Alistair Gray, of pmpgenesis (yes, of Genesis Reports fame) wrote an article in a Scottish paper recently damning the SFA for their approach to youth development, asking if they could be as far sighted as the FAI in appointing a Dutchman in a technical role.

[tetsujin1979]

I agree totally that the FAI must be seriously concerned that we rely far too much on another jurisdiction's infrastructure to nurture talent for our national team. Perhaps Koeverman's appointment recognises this. Alistair Gray, of pmpgenesis (yes, of Genesis Reports fame) wrote an article in a Scottish paper recently damning the SFA for their approach to youth development, asking if they could be as far sighted as the FAI in appointing a Dutchman in a technical role.
is this it - http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/gray-warns-that-there-can-be-no-gain-without-pain-doug-gillon-assesses-the-legacy-of-the-scottish-institute-of-sport-s-departing-chairman-1.56045

[Stuttgart88]

No Tets, it was this one

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/an-eight-point-plan-to-get-scottish-football-back-on-track-1.992388

Interesting how he envisages a mini-Celtic league with no mention of Ireland.

(PS: referring to the article you posted, I see the FAI missed out on its top 8 taget for 2010!)

[newrynyuk]

Roddy Doyle on how he saw Germany vs. England:-

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/sportingscene/2010/06/on-watching-england-lose.html

[TonyD]

And as for those ludicrious suggestions of Devid Beckham..

Oh please please plase, let this happen. :D:D