Are there too many clubs in this country?

[Riddickcule]

I have this book which is basically called "The Football Book"

It's bloody massive and contains endless facts, laws, tactics, leagues etc.

It also goes through every country and it says the amount of registered clubs, which includes Semi-Professional and Amateur.

For Ireland it says 5,500. Now i did a bit of calculations as I have no life. I divided the amount of clubs by the population which is around 4.4 million.

Which brings it to about 1 football club to every 800 people. Surely thats too many clubs right there.

Now, i'll make some comparisons with some other countries, obviously I wont do every country, i'll do a few european countries, and from what evidence this book gives:

England : Pop. 60 mill. Clubs: 42,500...1 club to 1,412 people.

Scotland: Pop. 5 mill. Clubs: 6,500...1 club to 769 people.

Wales: Pop. 3 mill. Clubs: 1,900...1 club to 1,579 people

Norn Ireland: Pop. 1.8 mill Clubs: 820...1 club to 2,195 people

Denmark: Pop. 5.5 mill Clubs: 1,500...1 club to 3,667 people

Norway: Pop. 4.6 mill Clubs: 1,800...1 club to 2,555 people


Now I could've sampled any country, I just chose our neighbours and other countries similiar in population to ours. With the exception of Scotland, clearly this proves we have too many clubs.

I know this wouldn't be easy to do, but I think we need to crop down the amount of clubs we have. For eg. in a town of 20,000 we could have around 3 or 4 clubs. Tbh thats ridiculous. A lot of towns are like that so surely we should merge some clubs and in turn that would create better competition locally and nationally.

In my town, we have 2 clubs. Our towns pop. is about 15,000. However the catch here is that one is a schoolboy club only and the other is purely an LSL team.

Why not merge the two, put finances together, put together a decent senior team that could even compete in the LOI.

Anyway, would you agree with me on the purpose of my post? Was looking at this book over a cup of tea and noticed this, I think we need less clubs, concentrate the talent more and we can produce better players. etc.

[Cuyahoga]

Its an interesting subject and something I have often thought of myself. One reason there is so many clubs is the Irish
disease of the SPLIT. Players/members have a row and they go and form their own club which is easy to do,rent a pitch from
the local council and enter a team in a league.Some of those 5,500 clubs I would think are very small and many only field one team.
Your idea of merging with other clubs makes sense but most clubs dont like losing what they have and their positions in that club. In my town of 17,000 there are four football teams,one of which was fomed out of a group of lads in a pub,which is one senior team and nothing else.Perhaps the F.A.I should insist on any new clubs forming having kids teams aswell.

[Riddickcule]

Its an interesting subject and something I have often thought of myself. One reason there is so many clubs is the Irish
disease of the SPLIT. Players/members have a row and they go and form their own club which is easy to do,rent a pitch from
the local council and enter a team in a league.Some of those 5,500 clubs I would think are very small and many only field one team.
Your idea of merging with other clubs makes sense but most clubs dont like losing what they have and their positions in that club. In my town of 17,000 there are four football teams,one of which was fomed out of a group of lads in a pub,which is one senior team and nothing else.Perhaps the F.A.I should insist on any new clubs forming having kids teams aswell.

Yeah there doesn't seem to be any criteria or anything to form a club, its too easy to do. I suppose it might not be fair to restrict people setting up clubs as people should have the right to. But surely the FAI should act on this like our towns should have just 1 club. A top senior team followed by reserve seniors, kids etc.

In my county league there seems to be new clubs coming in every year, its ridiculous theres something like 4 divisions and the county itself isn't that big (wicklow)

[marinobohs]

I have this book which is basically called "The Football Book"

It's bloody massive and contains endless facts, laws, tactics, leagues etc.

It also goes through every country and it says the amount of registered clubs, which includes Semi-Professional and Amateur.

For Ireland it says 5,500. Now i did a bit of calculations as I have no life. I divided the amount of clubs by the population which is around 4.4 million.

Which brings it to about 1 football club to every 800 people. Surely thats too many clubs right there.

Now, i'll make some comparisons with some other countries, obviously I wont do every country, i'll do a few european countries, and from what evidence this book gives:

England : Pop. 60 mill. Clubs: 42,500...1 club to 1,412 people.

Scotland: Pop. 5 mill. Clubs: 6,500...1 club to 769 people.

Wales: Pop. 3 mill. Clubs: 1,900...1 club to 1,579 people

Norn Ireland: Pop. 1.8 mill Clubs: 820...1 club to 2,195 people

Denmark: Pop. 5.5 mill Clubs: 1,500...1 club to 3,667 people

Norway: Pop. 4.6 mill Clubs: 1,800...1 club to 2,555 people


Now I could've sampled any country, I just chose our neighbours and other countries similiar in population to ours. With the exception of Scotland, clearly this proves we have too many clubs.

I know this wouldn't be easy to do, but I think we need to crop down the amount of clubs we have. For eg. in a town of 20,000 we could have around 3 or 4 clubs. Tbh thats ridiculous. A lot of towns are like that so surely we should merge some clubs and in turn that would create better competition locally and nationally.

In my town, we have 2 clubs. Our towns pop. is about 15,000. However the catch here is that one is a schoolboy club only and the other is purely an LSL team.

Why not merge the two, put finances together, put together a decent senior team that could even compete in the LOI.

Anyway, would you agree with me on the purpose of my post? Was looking at this book over a cup of tea and noticed this, I think we need less clubs, concentrate the talent more and we can produce better players. etc.

interesting line of thought, a problem in my own view would be the "disconnect" between clubs at junior level and Senior (primarily mean LOI here). Always amazed me that so many people who participate so vigourously in teams would not be found dead at a LOI game. Appreciate the two (playing and watching) are not necessarily linked but I would think people involved in the game would have an overall interest.
I do not doubt that the proliferation of clubs affects gates at LOI as many people are playing on Sat/Sun and therefore dont go to games. This should have improved as clubs moved games to Friday night but does not apear to have (to any great extent). If we have such an interest in participating in football surely we should be able to translate that into more healthy crowds ?

[Riddickcule]

Well some LOI clubs are trying to address that by creating links with the local schoolboy clubs, there was evidence of it a couple of years ago with my local team. Sometimes they would use our facility for training etc. and for a while we had free tickets for the kids and that was very succesful, only lasted one season though. I suppose they thought it would encourage the kids to keep going to games, doesn't look like it worked. Poor kids are being brainwashed just like their event junkie fathers.

[Jofspring]

As pointed out the problems can be between committees not wanting to join and people losing there positions within clubs. In Limerick there is 8 divisions in the city alone, not including the county league. Some clubs can barely field teams half the time and some have too many players. There are some very good schoolboy teams with no Minor/Junior to step up to and vice versa there are some very good Junior sides around with no underage setup. Some clubs have good teams and crap pitches and facilities and some have crap teams with top notch facilities. It would make sense to amalgamate a lot of teams in Limerick and other counties around the country which would probably develope a lot better teams and quality of players and the coaching these players get. It would mean a lot of clubs would be more community based too which can only be good. Off the top of my head on my side of town alone i can count about 6 or 7 clubs which is way too many for one side of one city in Ireland. There is too many people running clubs in this country that really haven't got a clue and they only have interest in themselves and their club, be it a big or a small club. Most people cannot see the bigger picture.

[peadar1987]

I think we need a more vertically integrated structure for football in this country. Large clubs with a good few teams of verying levels for youth to progress through, able to afford good facilities, and easy for LOI clubs to link with make more sense than lots of fragmented clubs with poor facilities, and no clear path of progression for those with ambition.

[Mr A]

Interesting debate. Riddickcule are there numbers for total playing population? I'm wondering what the ratio of players to clubs compares rather than population to clubs.

[culloty82]

The balance between geographic spread and club numbers seems to be right at senior level, so intermediate and junior level appears to be where the problem lies. I can only comment on Kerry, but the KDL has 43 first-teams and 14 B teams in 6 divisions, when the numbers could easily be pruned to form three competitive leagues. Eight clubs is clearly too many for a club the size of Tralee, while many rural parishes that only be described as villages often have two sides, but like politics, no-one is going to be the first to suggest a merger.

[A face]

List of population centres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_popula tion) in Ireland

[Riddickcule]

Interesting debate. Riddickcule are there numbers for total playing population? I'm wondering what the ratio of players to clubs compares rather than population to clubs.
No, but I think they do something like that on wikipedia, might not be reliable though.

[Riddickcule]

Yeah I went and fetched it, it's the world though they don't have just europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Football_world_popularity.png/800px-Football_world_popularity.png

Again I'll say might not be too reliable as its wikipedia, but there you go.

[Riddickcule]

I would have thought we'd be higher on that chart as it is believed football is the largest participating sport in Ireland. Surely we should be up there with the top boys. We're kind of similar to England in that they have cricket as we have GAA, and they have ruggers aswell.

And Englands higher then Scotland which suprises me because all they've got is football and rugby. Nothing else really.

Biggest suprise there to me is USA

[marinobohs]

Well some LOI clubs are trying to address that by creating links with the local schoolboy clubs, there was evidence of it a couple of years ago with my local team. Sometimes they would use our facility for training etc. and for a while we had free tickets for the kids and that was very succesful, only lasted one season though. I suppose they thought it would encourage the kids to keep going to games, doesn't look like it worked. Poor kids are being brainwashed just like their event junkie fathers.

While the links with (creation of) schoolboy teams is helpfull for LOI clubs it does not always reap the rewards expected. Home Farm were one of the best schoolboy set ups in the country yet had shockingly low crowds - if even 10% of the schoolboy section supported the LOI team they would have had a much broader support base. In the end the two sections ended up in somewhat of a confrontation over resources.
While I am still in favour of the link with schoolboy set ups (for variety of reasons) it would be interesting to ascertain peoples views on whether it has/has not impacted on support base(s)

[Macy]

Our problem isn't the number of clubs, it's the structure (and power levels) in the FAI. If the focus was on building a pyramid down from the League of Ireland feeding out then the number of lower clubs wouldn't matter. At the moment the League of Ireland has no greater weighting than any other sections of the game, hence resources are spread too thin.

[Riddickcule]

Another issue is that the DDSL top clubs which provide the conveyor belt of our players to Britain(cherry orchard, home farm, belvedere etc.), are not linked to LOI clubs at all.

This is the top level for teenagers here, when it should be a youth league comprised of LOI clubs. Like in most countries.

Of course there is no one solution to this problem, but it would be a start if the FAI recognised this and put their foot down on the Junior, Provincial and Amateur leagues.

[redobit]

List of population centres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_towns_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_popula tion) in Ireland

Interesting to see that the Towns of Naas, Carlow, Kilkenny, Tralee, Ennis and Navan all have higher populations than Sligo - yet none have a team competing in the top 2 divisions.
Its a pity really as it would give a better geographical spread to the league, especially the premier, if these towns could compete at higher levels.

[osarusan]

I'd agree with previous posters who say that the problem isn't so much the number of clubs as it is the relations between different levels of clubs, especially with LOI level. There are a lot of people who work at lower levels of football and clubs who contribute to the development of players, but much of this just bypasses the LOI.

When Limerick FC sign up a player from one of the underage or junior clubs, the reaction is usually that we've stolen their player and what thanks do they get for all that training, we don't bother developing palyers, just take the players we want and what are the junior clubs going to do without their star....etc.
I'm not very knowledgeable about other leagues, but it's hard for me to imagine that a club's reaction to one of their players being offered a chance to play at the highest level of football in the country (and which the club cannot itself cannot offer) would be so vitriolic in other countries.

[John83]

The lack of a pyramid is not helpful at all. Damned hard for the FAI to change it though - too many entrenched interests have a say there.


Interesting to see that the Towns of Naas, Carlow, Kilkenny, Tralee, Ennis and Navan all have higher populations than Sligo - yet none have a team competing in the top 2 divisions.
Its a pity really as it would give a better geographical spread to the league, especially the premier, if these towns could compete at higher levels.
Kilkenny had a team, bu couldn't compete with hurling. I suspect Tralee would similarly struggle to compete with gaelic football. As for Naas, they didn't exactly flock to support Kildare County. The likes of Naas, Kilkenny and Carlow would wind up picking up scraps from the Dublin clubs - I know it was a problem at Kilkenny and even Longford fans have complained of it - and that doesn't help build local support. Of course, any of those towns might host an LoI team in the future, but it's not as simple as 'hey, a population centre - someone put together a club'.

[WexCar]

From the FIFA website http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=irl/countryInfo.html

We have


All Players 421,644
Registered players 252,844
Unregistered Players 168,800
Clubs 5,828
Officials 7,330




So thats 73 players per club

[Riddickcule]

From the FIFA website http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=irl/countryInfo.html

We have


All Players 421,644
Registered players 252,844
Unregistered Players 168,800
Clubs 5,828
Officials 7,330




So thats 73 players per club
Feckin ridiculous, also, what constitutes an "unregistered player"?

[Riddickcule]

I wonder when that information on Ireland was published, seem to be way off with the population there. But the biggest shock was that Sligo, Tralee and Donegal were called cities :eek:

[Mr A]

Just did a quick check and for England it comes out as 98 players per club- not a massive difference.

I'd imagine unregistered players are people who play five a side or any other football that isn't within a recognised league. Guessing at that though.

Looking at registered players only:

Ireland has ~43 players per club.
England has ~35 players per club.

In general, I think the structure of the game is more of an issue than the number of clubs. The football fraternity is disunited, with most only interested in their own little corner. That includes the LOI, whose attitude to the other levels of the game can often leave a lot to be desired.

A partnership approach between the different levels of the game as well as a proper football pyramid is vital on both a national and local level, and that's going to involve give as well as take on the part of the senior clubs.

[Riddickcule]

The population is off by at least half a million people on that site though.

Infact, for every country they have it way off on the populations. USA 290 million when it should be 310 million, Scotland 5.5 million when it should be just 5.

So I'm not sure I'd trust that site, although it would give a general idea. I'm not disagreeing with you Mr A but i still think the number of clubs is still an important issue in this.

[passerrby]

the number of clubs have no impact what so ever on the growth of our clubs and game it is only the structures and the people within these structures that are the problem.
to many people only concerned in there own narrow self interest, and that includes me.
in fairness the fai im told are attempting to address this but i fear they will met stiff resisdence.

[Riddickcule]

The Fai need to get their priorties right. If they are serious about creating an environment for professional football I'm afraid they are going to need to commit to more then 5 million euro pa.and less should be going to the rest.

Sorry for being elitist but thats the way it should be.

[passerrby]

firstly the fai do not spend 5 mill on the LOI nowhere near it and while the league needs proper marketing, media, etc the league cannot grow in isolation that would only be a short term climb
.for our league to grow reqires a holistic approach encompassing all the footballing family
we need people to come out of there trenches and while not seting aside there needs look at how best they can build not just there club but the pyramid that is required

[Mr A]

The Fai need to get their priorties right. If they are serious about creating an environment for professional football I'm afraid they are going to need to commit to more then 5 million euro pa.and less should be going to the rest.

Sorry for being elitist but thats the way it should be.

But why exactly? Their mandate is to promote and nourish the game in this country at all levels, not just the top. And the LOI hasn't exactly done itself any favours down the years, running it is like trying to herd cats on acid.

And I don't see how reducing the number of junior clubs would in any way help the senior game.

[Riddickcule]

But why exactly? Their mandate is to promote and nourish the game in this country at all levels, not just the top. And the LOI hasn't exactly done itself any favours down the years, running it is like trying to herd cats on acid.

And I don't see how reducing the number of junior clubs would in any way help the senior game.
Because far more money then that is required to create a professional environment. Yes I'm aware the FAI have other leagues to worry about but if they can't afford to keep everyone happy then they shouldn't be running the LOI, although other options are restricted.

[John83]

What the hell is this fetish with a pro league? There's no onus on the FAI whatsoever to pour money into the league to make it pro. What exactly would that achieve?

[ped_ped]

Well a professional league can pay proper professional wages to get better players and improve the domestic game, and it's European results.

You're right though, no onus on the FAI.

[Riddickcule]

What the hell is this fetish with a pro league? There's no onus on the FAI whatsoever to pour money into the league to make it pro. What exactly would that achieve?
Are you serious? Just get your coat.

[passerrby]

ah finnally the we need more money to solve our problems solution ,riddicule this case was made by people far more smarter than you and me and it was flawed then
and enlighten us
A why should the fai pay for clubs to be pro
b. what would this achieve.
c. are you a bank manager or property developer

[Riddickcule]

Wow, just wow.

I didn't say the FAI should directly pay the clubs to go pro. I'm saying they need to put enough money into the league so that the clubs can go pro without going bust. I said professional environment.

And another thing, if we don't actually aspire to having a professional league then what are we here for?

And what would it achieve having a professional league? Answers itself, having a professional league Like most normal countries

[osarusan]

I didn't say the FAI should directly pay the clubs to go pro. I'm saying they need to put enough money into the league so that the clubs can go pro without going bust. I said professional environment.

How should they go about doing this? What should they spend the money on?

[passerrby]

where to begin.. to have a professional league it must be self sustaining the key word there is self which means that the turnover of clubs gates ,sponsorship etc must meet all the expenses wages running costs etc and still have money left over to grow and develop.
now no amount of money from the fai can make that happen it would help if they were serious about marketing and promoting the League that could be a start but if your local clubs at underage and junior are not part of the process it will untimitaly fail.
my main point is if clubs like say limerick or monaghan are to ever hope to be professional then they must have the support of all the footbal community in the regions

[Riddickcule]

How should they go about doing this? What should they spend the money on?
Well I don't know the full detail of the 5 million package. But whatever it is it should be a lot more. Things like marketing, sponsorship etc.

[GUFCghost]

Maybe a part-time league would be the best option,and one of the main things that bring people in is big names eg Jay O'Shay.
Clubs need to put more money into under age and scouting to find more players like this.

[Riddickcule]

A part time league isn't going to bring in big names. If the league was professional infact a few of these players such as Jay O'Shea, David Meyler, and Kevin Long wouldn't have been held back because of the LOI being part time.

[Acornvilla]

could the fai not just give every club a one off grant that is for only infrastructural use, so everyone could improve facilities, maybe even the fai could oversee the work? i know off=topic a bit but its a simple but effective idea methinks, theres always money thereto do these kind of thinks if they really wanted to do it, they would also come out looking really good for doing it,

sorry i don't live in the real world, i'm like a banker or teacher...

[Riddickcule]

No what would be the point of that?

How much would you propose the FAI give out to clubs?

What needs to happen is the clubs need to priortise more of their revenue into capital spending, rather then just wages.

[Acornvilla]

yeah i totally agree

but that kind of thing takes a long time and the fai have an obligation to help the clubs as much as possible so them helping to improve infrastructure would be nice, i know its not going to happen thou

on giving it out thou is there any sort of grant application at the moment for clubs?

[Mr A]

That's exactly what the salary cost protocol is meant to achieve- albeit it's a difficult one to enforce.

And before we even think of a professional league we need the clubs to grow to sustain that in obvious ways like facilities and community involvement and a million other small ways. That isn't going to happen overnight, but by baby steps. The aim should be to have a professional league off the field, not on it (at least initially). Stuff like the grow your club guide are good- real practical advice based on the experience of the clubs. And ultimately the FAI can only do so much- it's really up to the clubs to make it work.

We need to get away from this idea of looking for a silver budget or aiming for the virtually impossible. Gradual, sustainable development is where it's at. Throwing crazy wages at players when 97% of them would be in the league anyway is just daft.

[Riddickcule]

Well the FAI negotiate with the government to provide sports capital grants for clubs, which has temporarily halted because the countries fecked.

Another thing would be private investment which there is not much of here. And before anyone starts I'm not talking about sugar daddies rather private shareholders in a club who invest in the club. Take for example the german clubs where there always has to be a majority stake from the fans but there can be private invesment aswell. Best way to go imo.

[outspoken]

A very interesting argument here and ive often though of local clubs joining but people feel as if there losing something and it would be very hard for the FAI to say you can only have so many clubs in this area so you two have to merge ect.

[Acornvilla]

it will all be fine when i start selling art for millions of when i win the euromillions i promise

[Riddickcule]

A very interesting argument here and ive often though of local clubs joining but people feel as if there losing something and it would be very hard for the FAI to say you can only have so many clubs in this area so you two have to merge ect.
Sure it would be hard but if necessary it must be done. Ah god I'm sounding like a Fianna Fail gombeen now.

[passerrby]

Well the FAI negotiate with the government to provide sports capital grants for clubs, which has temporarily halted because the countries fecked.

Another thing would be private investment which there is not much of here. And before anyone starts I'm not talking about sugar daddies rather private shareholders in a club who invest in the club. Take for example the german clubs where there always has to be a majority stake from the fans but there can be private invesment aswell. Best way to go imo.

I can see it now
Good moring mr private investor Ii was wondering perhaps would you like to invest in our club.
oh and what kind of divident can i expect
eh em none in fact its a bottomless pit but you will have the saisfaction of knowing that your money went down a well intentioned well.
and what exactly do i get for my investment.
head ache chest pains and a angry bank manager.
what a great oppurtunity i was going to invest in shares in bp or aib but your deal sounds so much better
oh and you will proberly get a call from somebody in the fai looking to tap you up as well

[Riddickcule]

Grow up chap :rolleyes:

[passerrby]

I would be happy to discuss this logically if indeed you had any logic to your argument but professional league, private investors, youv lost me
oh and before the fai can invest any more on a struggling league of ireland they would require the permission of the general council which giving there dislike of the loi would not be forthcoming.
and real investors only invest when there is a gauranteed return.
bottom line income must met expenditure