Are there too many clubs in this country?

[marinobohs]

The Fai need to get their priorties right. If they are serious about creating an environment for professional football I'm afraid they are going to need to commit to more then 5 million euro pa.and less should be going to the rest.

Sorry for being elitist but thats the way it should be.

To run a professional League means acting professionally. The FAI should only consider funds for clubs presenting serious costed business plans that have a break even prospect (at least in the mid term). Any club abusing/redirecting monies awarded should be banned from receiving funding for two seasons (even if this results in their demise).
Infrastructure should have a business purpose not just "build it and they will come" strategy. To be fair the FAI have invested (or supported clubs investing) in promotional activity, at the end of the day increasing the number of paying customers is where we need to focus.

[pineapple stu]

Grow up chap :rolleyes:


Are you serious? Just get your coat.
Riddickule - attack the posts, not the posters. They're making perfectly valid, constructive criticisms of some of your points, and you're just huffing over it.

The thread itself is a good one, but posts like that don't help the discussion.

[KevB76]

The balance between geographic spread and club numbers seems to be right at senior level, so intermediate and junior level appears to be where the problem lies. I can only comment on Kerry, but the KDL has 43 first-teams and 14 B teams in 6 divisions, when the numbers could easily be pruned to form three competitive leagues. Eight clubs is clearly too many for a club the size of Tralee, while many rural parishes that only be described as villages often have two sides, but like politics, no-one is going to be the first to suggest a merger.

You must take into consideration that a lot of people just want a kick-about on a Sunday morning.
This should be encouraged in the interest of the general health of the population.
In rural areas you dont have the same access to 5-aside or Astroturf facilites that you would have in larger towns or cities, so forming a 2nd team at some low level junior division makes a lot of sense for many people, partuiclarly when that club has a first team that takes things more seriously, and cant provide an outlet for those who would be older or not particularly good at football, but need an outlet to get some excersize, and then theres the social side of it as well.

[Macy]

*Deep breaths* Riddickcule is right, in that more money should go in at League of Ireland level. However, the focus shouldn't be on the fully pro league, but on building the League of Ireland clubs as the focus for football, feeding out into the community. Enshrine the link between the League of Ireland and the junior clubs and underage clubs. And that would require a sea change in both the League of Ireland as well as the other levels of the game. At present, it would also require more input/ oversight by the FAI, as the League of Ireland clubs can't be trusted.

[Riddickcule]

What the hell is this fetish with a pro league? There's no onus on the FAI whatsoever to pour money into the league to make it pro. What exactly would that achieve?

More like posts like that ruin the thread. Thats like saying Ireland is never going to come out of recession so we should bankrupt ourselves now rather then later.

[Riddickcule]

Infrastructure should have a business purpose not just "build it and they will come" strategy. To be fair the FAI have invested (or supported clubs investing) in promotional activity, at the end of the day increasing the number of paying customers is where we need to focus.
It's like the chicken and the egg question, what comes first? Some people think once the crowds come then the product and the facilites will come. And the people who think once the product and facilities come then the crowds come. I am very much the latter.

The only way crowds will flock to the games is if the product and the facilities are there, the matchday experience. Football is part of consumer culture wether we like it or not. Fans are consumers. Demand must be stimulated through supply. etc.

Theres no reason we can't be like most countries these days whereby fans support their local team and their superclub. It happens everywhere. Even somewhere like France which has a strong enough domestic league, you will more likely see a Man Utd shirt then a PSG one.

And of course theres marketing, people need to know the games are on. In the relevant towns/cities with LOI clubs, most of the populace don't even know the game is on.

Anyway enough ranting, the thread is an interesting one and I knew it would be a good discussion. I can't deny whats more important is bridging the gap between all levels of the game here, but I still think the main question needs to be looked at..Are there too many clubs in this country?

[SkStu]

not sure if it is strictly on topic but financial prudence should be rewarded by the FAI - clubs who operate less than 55% of the SCP for two consecutive seasons qualify for ground development grant.... or something based on that principle.

for me that would be the best way for the FAI to support clubs who budget properly and prudently. We need to at least get the stadia right first and that is often the last thing that clubs are worried about. Wages, wages, wages.

[pineapple stu]

More like posts like that ruin the thread. Thats like saying Ireland is never going to come out of recession so we should bankrupt ourselves now rather then later.
I won't say it again Riddickule - attack the post, not the poster. John83 posed a perfectly valid question; if you want to address it, do, but don't dismiss it by saying it's ruining the thread with absolutely no back-up whatsoever.

SkStu's reward scheme is an interesting idea though.

[marinobohs]

not sure if it is strictly on topic but financial prudence should be rewarded by the FAI - clubs who operate less than 55% of the SCP for two consecutive seasons qualify for ground development grant.... or something based on that principle.

for me that would be the best way for the FAI to support clubs who budget properly and prudently. We need to at least get the stadia right first and that is often the last thing that clubs are worried about. Wages, wages, wages.

Good idea SKSTU, real need to take the focus of LOI clubs away from wages full stop. A model such as you are proposing would benifit clubs that unearth decent young talent (as opposed to the LOI transfer merry go round) and would provide a viable alternative model for clubs unable/unwilling to take part in the bidding war(s) over players each season.

Would suggest independent verification process would be required to avoid the fudge factor so prevalent with the FAI but certainly the nucleus of a good model there.

[Mr A]

The problem with unearthing local talent is that even that is expensive. If you sign a player from a junior or intermediate club they're entitled to compensation, often a few thousand euro. Cheap if the player is good enough, but only a small percentage will make it. Non senior clubs will often choose to waive that to let the player have a chance at better things, but it can be a considerable impediment to getting players aboard. Then there's the joke that is the U20 league.. there are so few games that your young players simply don't get enough football and there is little incentive to leave their junior clubs to go there. Meanwhile it's tough for LOI clubs to compete in local underage leagues because naturally the junior clubs don't want the big boys hoovering up all the talent and winning all the time.

Essentially- it really is quite difficult for an LOI club to develop a decent youth structure because the high quality outlets for the players are so few.

Again, this all goes back to a need to reform the structures of the game and how they interact. And again, the number of clubs is pretty much irrelevant to it.

This is why a system of dual registration of players with senior and non-senior clubs would make such a massive difference.

[Riddickcule]

I won't say it again Riddickule - attack the post, not the poster. John83 posed a perfectly valid question; if you want to address it, do, but don't dismiss it by saying it's ruining the thread with absolutely no back-up whatsoever.

SkStu's reward scheme is an interesting idea though.
I did attack the post :confused:

[pineapple stu]

No you didn't.

Don't say it ruins the thread; say why it ruins the thread.

[marinobohs]

The problem with unearthing local talent is that even that is expensive. If you sign a player from a junior or intermediate club they're entitled to compensation, often a few thousand euro. Cheap if the player is good enough, but only a small percentage will make it. Non senior clubs will often choose to waive that to let the player have a chance at better things, but it can be a considerable impediment to getting players aboard. Then there's the joke that is the U20 league.. there are so few games that your young players simply don't get enough football and there is little incentive to leave their junior clubs to go there. Meanwhile it's tough for LOI clubs to compete in local underage leagues because naturally the junior clubs don't want the big boys hoovering up all the talent and winning all the time.

Essentially- it really is quite difficult for an LOI club to develop a decent youth structure because the high quality outlets for the players are so few.

Again, this all goes back to a need to reform the structures of the game and how they interact. And again, the number of clubs is pretty much irrelevant to it.

This is why a system of dual registration of players with senior and non-senior clubs would make such a massive difference.

The (admittedly somewhat vague ) idea is to provide an incentive for clubs not engaging in the wages bidding war that we have seen over the last decade. rather than recycling the same player pool via an inflated player transfer pool clubs would be encouraged to bring in newer players (probobly on lower wages) thus offering oppurtunities to young developing players and moving away from the current model. players would not necessarily come through the clubs youth set up but it would need clubs to interact more with junior and especially schoolboy clubs which should also better the game here.
I fully appreciate it is far from a "magic bullet" for the LOI ills and may well be similar to the restructuring model you allude to.

[Mr A]

To be clear- I don't disagree with you at all, I was just pointing out the current problems and how they contribute to the 'recycling' of the same player pool within the league.

[marinobohs]

To be clear- I don't disagree with you at all, I was just pointing out the current problems and how they contribute to the 'recycling' of the same player pool within the league.

Yea agree RE limited pool - its not like clubs are not currently looking . The concept would need a bit of work but I do believe the focus on spiralling wages in the last decade has had a very negitive effect on the LOI. While deflation is making major inroads to the previous obsene wages payed to some players clubs do still engage in "bidding wars" for players. The short term nature of contracts (entered into for obvious financial reasons) is another factor as players are free agents after a short contract. One of the joys of LOI is how a player we "hated" last season quickly becomes a hero on signing for our club ;)

[John83]

More like posts like that ruin the thread. Thats like saying Ireland is never going to come out of recession so we should bankrupt ourselves now rather then later.
I think that's a ridiculous analogy. Pouring money into one level of the game would cause a short term rise in the results there and cripple the other levels. In the medium term, a significant erosion of junior infrastructure would hurt the quality of players in the LoI and the national team, the latter curbing the FAI's income and leading to a long term decline in football in this country. To make a similar analogy to yours, what you're suggesting is like this country borrowing even more money and pouring it into the construction industry to prop it up at the levels of activity we had five years ago. Utter madness. I am fully behind the group of posters - people like Mr A, MariborKev and Pineapple Stu - who've seen what short term thinking has lead to in the league, and who believe in financial prudence and stable growth. What do you believe in? That a few million more ****ed into the league will magic up the crowds to pay for it? What did all the money Shels didn't have buy them, but a narrow defeat against Deportivo and years of struggling to pay for it?

[Riddickcule]

Wow you really take everything literally don't you?

You're saying it as if I said we should forget all other levels of the game except the LOI - I didn't say that at all.

But your ignoring ther fact you said we shouldn't strive to become professional in the long term. Why? We need a professional league like most countries. And a professional industry will benefit everyone not just the clubs coffers.

Of course financial prudence should be rewarded, but we need to priortise marketing and facilites and linking with the other football levels, and get that mentality out of the clubs where they think paying higher wages will get the locals in.

[John83]

Wow you really take everything literally don't you?
No.


You're saying it as if I said we should forget all other levels of the game except the LOI - I didn't say that at all.Where do you think the money will come from? Private investors? Someone else already ridiculed you for that suggestion.


But your ignoring ther fact you said we shouldn't strive to become professional in the long term. Why? We need a professional league like most countries. And a professional industry will benefit everyone not just the clubs coffers.No, I didn't say that. I accused you of having a fetish with a professional league. Of course the league would benefit from becoming pro. I just think we can't get there by taking shortcuts and gambles.


Of course financial prudence should be rewarded, but we need to priortise marketing and facilites and linking with the other football levels, and get that mentality out of the clubs where they think paying higher wages will get the locals in.I agree with every word of that.

[Riddickcule]

No.

Where do you think the money will come from? Private investors? Someone else already ridiculed you for that suggestion.

No, I didn't say that. I accused you of having a fetish with a professional league. Of course the league would benefit from becoming pro. I just think we can't get there by taking shortcuts and gambles.

I agree with every word of that.

I didn't say all the money would come from private investors, I was suggesting the lack of private investment into the league. Did I ever suggest shortcuts/gambles with regard to a professional league? No, I'm suggesting more stronger efforts to get punters in which is priortising marketing/facilities instead of wages.

[passerrby]

your suggestion to "Crop the number of clubs" and then to put more money into the LOI at the cost of junior leagues would first of all murder any potential for support from the wider footballing community clubs, leagues affilates etc which would be the death nail for your professional league.
your suggestion to get private investors is the reason the league is in the place its in right now.
all ideas are useless unless you have an overall plan because everything you do has a consequence, most of these things have been tried in the past and have failed
any hope of a professional league needs the full suport of all otherwise it is doomed to fail

[peadar1987]

-Encourage clubs to merge as much as is possible by funding for clubs over a certain membership threshold for improving facilities. Obviously there is a huge potential for FAI fudging, but this could also help the nationwide spread of the game by targeting weaker areas

-Extra funding for "linked" clubs, so junior clubs that have a partnership with an LOI club get more funding

-A fairer compensation system for junior clubs whose players move to an LOI club.

-The possibility of dual registration, with an LOI club, and a junior club


With the ultimate aim of an LOI club in every major population centre (which would need a couple of more top level clubs; Mullingar, Meath, Kilkenny, etc.), with a pyramid of clubs below affiliated with the LOI club, actively trying to develop players for that club, as it makes financial sense for them to do it. The LOI clubs have loads of solid contacts with the football community at grass-roots level, the players at junior clubs aspire to play for the LOI clubs, and the league finally scrapes together enough money to hold weekly monkey knife fights. Everybody wins!

[SkStu]

-Encourage clubs to merge as much as is possible by funding for clubs over a certain membership threshold for improving facilities. Obviously there is a huge potential for FAI fudging, but this could also help the nationwide spread of the game by targeting weaker areas

-Extra funding for "linked" clubs, so junior clubs that have a partnership with an LOI club get more funding

-A fairer compensation system for junior clubs whose players move to an LOI club.

-The possibility of dual registration, with an LOI club, and a junior club


With the ultimate aim of an LOI club in every major population centre (which would need a couple of more top level clubs; Mullingar, Meath, Kilkenny, etc.), with a pyramid of clubs below affiliated with the LOI club, actively trying to develop players for that club, as it makes financial sense for them to do it. The LOI clubs have loads of solid contacts with the football community at grass-roots level, the players at junior clubs aspire to play for the LOI clubs, and the league finally scrapes together enough money to hold weekly monkey knife fights. Everybody wins!

excellent points Peadar and very achievable over the medium term.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think there the most important point to be made is that while wages have spun out of control in recent years, there has been no corresponding rise in attendances. I realise wages rose in every country, and Ireland had higher inflation than most places, but it still suggests that the reason players don't want to play in Ireland isn't just because the wages are lower.

Personally, having worked in PR, I feel Irish clubs have missed the boat completely with regard to promotion during the recession. Like most businesses, I presume the clubs reduced their promotion budgets when hard times hit when really they should have raised them to capitalise on the thousands of families who will no longer be able to afford trips to Manchester and Liverpool to see Premier League games. Rovers scored a major coup with the Real game, but they've done very little promotions-wise since.

My ma has been a teacher (and a member of the sports committee) in a school in Tallaght (I won't say which one) for years that is well within walking distance of Tallaght Stadium. The local GAA club that provided hurling and football classes to the school has recently withdrawn its football coach (in fact, he was laid off). The other local club offered to fill the gap but the original club has threatened to withdraw its hurling coach if they're allowed in.

Where are Shamrock Rovers in this? They've been in Tallaght for over a year and have yet to contact the school about any program. I know they have strong links with Tallaght IT, but they can hardly expect to tap into a steady stream of youngsters when they're all receiving GAA tutelage in school.

[peadar1987]

I think there the most important point to be made is that while wages have spun out of control in recent years, there has been no corresponding rise in attendances. I realise wages rose in every country, and Ireland had higher inflation than most places, but it still suggests that the reason players don't want to play in Ireland isn't just because the wages are lower.

Personally, having worked in PR, I feel Irish clubs have missed the boat completely with regard to promotion during the recession. Like most businesses, I presume the clubs reduced their promotion budgets when hard times hit when really they should have raised them to capitalise on the thousands of families who will no longer be able to afford trips to Manchester and Liverpool to see Premier League games. Rovers scored a major coup with the Real game, but they've done very little promotions-wise since.

My ma has been a teacher (and a member of the sports committee) in a school in Tallaght (I won't say which one) for years that is well within walking distance of Tallaght Stadium. The local GAA club that provided hurling and football classes to the school has recently withdrawn its football coach (in fact, he was laid off). The other local club offered to fill the gap but the original club has threatened to withdraw its hurling coach if they're allowed in.

Where are Shamrock Rovers in this? They've been in Tallaght for over a year and have yet to contact the school about any program. I know they have strong links with Tallaght IT, but they can hardly expect to tap into a steady stream of youngsters when they're all receiving GAA tutelage in school.


Exactly. The clubs should be visiting and promoting themselves in every school, pub, shop and sports club in the area, just to make themselves visible. Give out free pens, donate prizes to a charity raffle, sponsor bibs for a junior football team, have the players train in a school once every few weeks, run camps, just do something! Shams did really well with the original promotion of the club when they moved into Tallaght, but they can't afford to let up on it now.

The LOI is never going to be able to compete with the barstool leagues in terms of quality, or Andy Gray sensationalism. To get the crowds in, we have to differentiate ourselves from the competition, and the only real appropriate niche is as a competition firmly grounded in the community. As an example, most Corkonians would pay to watch tiddlywinks if there was a chance one of "their boys" was going to show up someone from Dublin

[passinginterest]

In fairness to Shamrock Rover they have some excellent connections with schools in Tallaght including a scholarship scheme with St Aidan's in Brookfield. I'd imagine some schools are a lot more open to inviting them in than others, information about the programme is here; http://www.shamrockrovers.ie/about/community/schools-programme

Charlie Darwin, maybe the school should make contact with the club? I know at least one school very close to the stadium (or at least it's principal) was one of the major forces trying to block Rovers getting into the stadium so it could be related to that?

[Riddickcule]

All these promotion ideas are all well and good, I don't disagree with them but what I will say is that even basic advertising is missing from our league. Take around Bray for example, if you never go near the ground for a week you'd never realise a game was on let alone a football club staged here.

[marinobohs]

Exactly. The clubs should be visiting and promoting themselves in every school, pub, shop and sports club in the area, just to make themselves visible. Give out free pens, donate prizes to a charity raffle, sponsor bibs for a junior football team, have the players train in a school once every few weeks, run camps, just do something! Shams did really well with the original promotion of the club when they moved into Tallaght, but they can't afford to let up on it now.

The LOI is never going to be able to compete with the barstool leagues in terms of quality, or Andy Gray sensationalism. To get the crowds in, we have to differentiate ourselves from the competition, and the only real appropriate niche is as a competition firmly grounded in the community. As an example, most Corkonians would pay to watch tiddlywinks if there was a chance one of "their boys" was going to show up someone from Dublin

Fully agree but WHO is going to do all this promotional work ? At Bohs players have gone to schools and done promotional work but they are full time. Not so sure that part time players already juggling a job (if lucky) training and playing would be too pleased to add further to their schedule. Similarly most club officials give voluntary of their time and imposing further on them is asking a lot. Again pens,prizes etc are not free - someone pays for them and as we all know there is not too much spare cash flowing around at clubs.

Not to knock the ideas proposed Peadar, far from it (all have merit) but when you start to look at implementing them it gets a little difficult.

[endabob1]

-Encourage clubs to merge as much as is possible by funding for clubs over a certain membership threshold for improving facilities. Obviously there is a huge potential for FAI fudging, but this could also help the nationwide spread of the game by targeting weaker areas

-Extra funding for "linked" clubs, so junior clubs that have a partnership with an LOI club get more funding

-A fairer compensation system for junior clubs whose players move to an LOI club.

-The possibility of dual registration, with an LOI club, and a junior club


With the ultimate aim of an LOI club in every major population centre (which would need a couple of more top level clubs; Mullingar, Meath, Kilkenny, etc.), with a pyramid of clubs below affiliated with the LOI club, actively trying to develop players for that club, as it makes financial sense for them to do it. The LOI clubs have loads of solid contacts with the football community at grass-roots level, the players at junior clubs aspire to play for the LOI clubs, and the league finally scrapes together enough money to hold weekly monkey knife fights. Everybody wins!

Probably the most sensible post I have ever read on Foot.ie

[KevB76]

-Encourage clubs to merge as much as is possible by funding for clubs over a certain membership threshold for improving facilities. Obviously there is a huge potential for FAI fudging, but this could also help the nationwide spread of the game by targeting weaker areas

-Extra funding for "linked" clubs, so junior clubs that have a partnership with an LOI club get more funding

-A fairer compensation system for junior clubs whose players move to an LOI club.

-The possibility of dual registration, with an LOI club, and a junior club


With the ultimate aim of an LOI club in every major population centre (which would need a couple of more top level clubs; Mullingar, Meath, Kilkenny, etc.), with a pyramid of clubs below affiliated with the LOI club, actively trying to develop players for that club, as it makes financial sense for them to do it. The LOI clubs have loads of solid contacts with the football community at grass-roots level, the players at junior clubs aspire to play for the LOI clubs, and the league finally scrapes together enough money to hold weekly monkey knife fights. Everybody wins!

Excellent suggestions Peadar. Great post :ball:

[peadar1987]

Fully agree but WHO is going to do all this promotional work ? At Bohs players have gone to schools and done promotional work but they are full time. Not so sure that part time players already juggling a job (if lucky) training and playing would be too pleased to add further to their schedule. Similarly most club officials give voluntary of their time and imposing further on them is asking a lot. Again pens,prizes etc are not free - someone pays for them and as we all know there is not too much spare cash flowing around at clubs.

Not to knock the ideas proposed Peadar, far from it (all have merit) but when you start to look at implementing them it gets a little difficult.

I'd be firmly of the belief that if a club can scrape together the funds to pay a very average player a three figure sum each week, they have the capacity, with a little bit of prioritising, to scrape together the funds for a decent club promotion campaign. It's an example of the short-termism that blights the league. If you spend €100 a week on club promotion, and it attracts even 15 more people to the game, you've made a 50% return on your investment. Take, for example, donating club branded bibs to a local sports club or school. A set of six costs about €15. If one kid gets their dad to take them to one game, you've made back your investment almost twice over.

[GUFCghost]

The problem with unearthing local talent is that even that is expensive. If you sign a player from a junior or intermediate club they're entitled to compensation, often a few thousand euro.

.

What?
The under age team here need a kick up the arse.
Salthill play in the first division and have a five star ground,they won't let Galway United or the Galway League team play/train their.
The idea of under age clubs is to produce pros.Weather it be here or in England!

[Riddickcule]

I'd be firmly of the belief that if a club can scrape together the funds to pay a very average player a three figure sum each week, they have the capacity, with a little bit of prioritising, to scrape together the funds for a decent club promotion campaign. It's an example of the short-termism that blights the league. If you spend €100 a week on club promotion, and it attracts even 15 more people to the game, you've made a 50% return on your investment. Take, for example, donating club branded bibs to a local sports club or school. A set of six costs about €15. If one kid gets their dad to take them to one game, you've made back your investment almost twice over.
Yes but the challenge is keeping them going to games regurlarly, and if they don't, there goes your investment.

[Eminence Grise]

I'd be firmly of the belief that if a club can scrape together the funds to pay a very average player a three figure sum each week, they have the capacity, with a little bit of prioritising, to scrape together the funds for a decent club promotion campaign. It's an example of the short-termism that blights the league. If you spend €100 a week on club promotion, and it attracts even 15 more people to the game, you've made a 50% return on your investment. Take, for example, donating club branded bibs to a local sports club or school. A set of six costs about €15. If one kid gets their dad to take them to one game, you've made back your investment almost twice over.

Peadar 1987, you're dead right. Very modest investment in promotion can yield good returns. The thing is, it has to be done consistently to reinforce awareness of the club.

I lived 100 yards from a ground in Dublin for 12 years, and never once got so much as a flyer or leaflet in the door. How do politicians get 8,000+ people/suckers to vote for them? They canvass, with a leaflet: cheap, highly visible, and very effective. They might even do a door-to-door survey (or at least the ones I know/know about) but the key for them is to engage with the punters, and sell the message on the doorsteps.

Get the older underage players out in their club tracksuits, along with members, just one evening every week during the season and preseason, and blitz a a few housing estates in town, or a cluster of city streets. But do it repeatedly over a short time frame (1. survey; 2. results of survey; 3. info leaflet on games, underage trials, membership application, or special offers with local partner businesses etc - three visits over six weeks) and keep rolling over new areas in the alternate weeks. Over the course of a season you could hit literally thousands of homes three or four times for fairly modest cost.