Kenny v Bruton v Labour

[dahamsta]

Surprised there hasn't been a thread on this, opinions? I have to admit to not being as clued-in on Bruton as I should be, but I get the impression he'd be the right guy to have at the helm right now - particularly in coalition with Labour. Plus of course the pig that Biffo f*cks would be better qualified to run the party than Kenny...

I mean at the helm of the country btw, not just the party. I'd be very surprised if Labour held their lead, and I'm not a big fan of Gilmore.

[OneRedArmy]

At least Bruton is intellectual. Its about time we had someone who is in the running to lead the country on their intellectual horsepower rather than a fixer (aka cute hoor).

FG are done if they don't get rid of Kenny tomorrow.

Labour will only hold strong if the economy continues to weaken.

[Declanus]

Have to agree with you about Kenny. FF'ers are probably delighted that the spot light is off them for a few days. FG are done for if Kenny stays

[Fr Damo]

Joe Mo Fo Duffy held a straw poll this aft and there was far more support among FG ranks for Kenny(of those who called in ) than the perception. Personally, It's time for Kenny to go but I dunno if tomorrow is the best time. I also reconginse that if he doesn't go tomorrow he won't go for a while more. As some wrote this morning, it could yet make him, as he comes out fighting with nothing to lose. I however, doubt it.

I also think labour would have gained more under Rabbitte than Gilmore recently, and cannot see their "popularity" turning in to anything at election time. (mores the pity)

[OneRedArmy]

Was there not a heave against Kenny about a year ago? After he survived that FG claimed that was the leadership issue settled until the next election....

[Mr A]

It seems mad that FG are totally panicking at the first sign of a bad poll result. Kenny may not have much charisma, but he has lead them back from the doldrums to a very good position to lead the next government. I do like Richard Bruton, but I'd nearly prefer him in finance to the leader role. FG really seem to have lost the plot recently - their outbursts about the idea of the Euro zone having an input on budgets seemed crazy and left them open to allegations that they supported Lisbon etc without really understanding them.

Meanwhile Labour I think are doing a good job of portraying FF/FG as tweedle dum and tweedle dee and generally keeping the heads down except to boot the government from time to time.

[dahamsta]

Actually Kenny has plenty of charisma, I've seen him speak in person and he can definitely hold his own. The only problem is that what he comes out with is complete waffle, most of it plain-jane kneejerk garbage. He hasn't the brains to come up with policies of his own, and he hasn't the gumption to implement other people's.

I blame Gilmore almost exclusively for the garbage they come out with these days. He's completely trashed the philosophies of a party that was already confused. Labour needs to swing back to the left, hard, and now is is the perfect time to do it. It won't happen with those poll numbers though. No-one there has the balls to say that the lead is a result of the recession, and not Gilmore's leadership.

[Fr Damo]

R Bruton sacked as deaputy leader so that he cannot table a no confidence vote. Kenny is as bad as Cowan...... head into sand.

[Mr A]

This is political suicide by FG. Absolute madness. I can't see Kenny surviving this, and if he does he will be without his star front bench performer.

As for Bruton- he may gain the leadership but the party will remain most likely remain divided as Kenny took them a long way. From an FG perspective they probably need Kenny to step aside quietly, as a battle could be very damaging.

FF must be laughing their arses off at this. And probably wishing Lenihen wasn't sick so that he could try the same trick.

[dahamsta]

I imagine Kenny thinks "hard man" tactics will win out, but I don't think those words mean what he thinks they mean...

[OneRedArmy]

Last throw of the dice by Inda. He's gambling that without Bruton to raise the motion not enough will be brave enough to vote against him.

[Dodge]

It seems mad that FG are totally panicking at the first sign of a bad poll result.

They should've got rid of him after he failed to win a wide open election last time out. FF were on their knees and nobody took advantage.

[mypost]

He won back the 20 seats they lost at the '02 election. Fair enough, he didn't win the election, but with the electorate settling for what they knew rather than what was best for them, winning it was always going to be a tall order.

There are many other FG leaders who didn't win elections in the past 35 years. As it is today, Kenny is the only leader from the last election still standing. He should lead them into 2012, but stand down if he fails. If FG can't win it then, they never will.

[dahamsta]

Kenny couldn't lead a dog. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Fr Damo]

I heard Bruton on with RTE last night driving home and he was asked what next if the no confidence vote doesn't get going? He hadn't an answer, and waffled away about it will happen.

Also it was put to him that his brief is economics because that's all he knows and doesn't understand the wider issues. He didn't make a good job at that either tbh. Maybe Kenny is the best of a bad lot?

Having said that Leo Varidkar and Dr O Reilly seem like intelligent and articulate TDs who could be put to better use with more/better leadership??

FF are laughing..... again. If kenny does survive he has just got rid of the person who gets more TV time than anyone else in his party.

[Macy]

Kenny should've been knifed long ago, but my money would be on Hayes rather than Bruton. Bruton actually isn't that much better at selling a message, and hasn't that much political nous if he chose this timing. They'd tabled a motion of no confidence in Cowen, and the establishment were panicing about Labour and coming out with the "no policies" nonsense as if it was fact, and FG leadership dominates the news!

I disagree with Adam on Gilmore, but regardless, Labour are the opposition now if they can stay out of the FG infighting. Like I said, the focus looked liked being on the supposed lack of labour policies and it turned into the will he won't he Bruton show.

Someone said Labour would be doing better with Rabitte - I'm not sure about that, I always liked him but he was a bit devisive. Shows the advantage of a bloodless coup that both him and Quinn are still on the front bench.

[dahamsta]

Kenny walking into the shadow cabinet and walking back out again after stating that he'd let it go to the parliamentary party was a weaselly last effort. Telling the Pigf*cker in the Dáil than he should have done the honourable thing and resign* nearly made me crash the car on the way home for laughing. He's priceless is Kenny. And he's dead in the water.

My concern now is that Coveney hold tough. He's been patient for a while now but he's obviously itching to go, and holding off on a pledge of support for Bruton will just make him look petty and vindictive. He needs to hold off another 5 years or so before launching an all out campaign imho.

I couldn't say Labour would be doing better under Rabitte, but I do think they'd be more credible. As someone pointed out the other day, they're doing magnificently in the polls for absolutely no reason: no policies, no nothing, just FG-style kneejerk opposition.


* Apparently it was "If you had any integrity you would already have resigned." I'm tempted to do one of those inspirational posters with this, for Hypocrisy, or Irony.

[Spudulika]

I don't trust any of the yokes who stepped off the front bench. Only on Monday morning Leo Varadkar was on the radio spouting on his undying love for Enda and how he was the man to move the country forward ni matter what. 24 hours later and he's walking out and last night completely contradicted himself. It was almost a complete set up, FG meltdown as they call for no-confidence in Biffo! And it's Eoghan Harris' greatest wet dream. It's probably a simple thing and anyhone who's seen Yes, Minister will know exactly how it goes. Somebody says, in an op-ed piece, "Wouldn't Bruton be great as Taoiseach" and he can't deny it as it would preclude him from any future run at the job and also he doesn't know if it's fully true, and all politicos are blessed with massive amounts of ego - Bruton especially, and he figures, I'll say nothing and see what happens. Enda calls him in, asks him if it's true that he's plotting, he says no (probably) and is tolf to make a public statement - which he can't as it'd show he has no ambition or bottle - so he gets the boot.

It just buys more time for FF, and it's time they shouldn't have been allowed. FG chickened out of going into government last time out, rightly so, and the economy imploded, but now is the time to step up!

[Mr A]

I don't recall exactly where I read or heard it, but apparently one of the reasons for the split between Kenny and Bruton was that a press release was put out in the latter's name about the peer review idea for budgets within the euro zone that Bruton had not agreed with or approved. It does go some way to explaining the timing.

I think the writing is on the wall for Kenny at this stage, but the real beneficiaries of all this could well be Labour.

[Spudulika]

I don't recall exactly where I read or heard it, but apparently one of the reasons for the split between Kenny and Bruton was that a press release was put out in the latter's name about the peer review idea for budgets within the euro zone that Bruton had not agreed with or approved. It does go some way to explaining the timing.

I think the writing is on the wall for Kenny at this stage, but the real beneficiaries of all this could well be Labour.

Was that not a release about the banking reports? Or maybe I got mixed up? Does explain it.

I think the main beneficiaries are FF. I was listening to an episode of "what if" today, on Pee Flynn's Late Late Show admission. And when they tracked through all the scandals that hit FF since 1999, there is no way in the world, in any functioning democracy, that a political party with such filth attached to it would survive. So many have brassed it out, Calelly being one, and been rewarded - include BC Flynn, and the party still clings to power. Bertie has a magic safe, an inability to open a bank account (despite being Finance Minister) and he's still elected and respected. It just boggles the mind.

Looks like the tide has turned against Dame Enda, but I don't fancy Bruton leading the country with a likes of Varadkar and Mitchell there too.

[Mr A]

Live updates: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0617/finegael.html

[Spudulika]

It seems, from reading the blurbs from the link, that there is now a mad dash to take control of the party to cause a general election to form a coalition with Labour. I don't trust Bruton, or any of his front bench lackeys. Better to disband the Dail and let Mary rule from the park :-)

[OneRedArmy]

Whatever this outcome this level of discord will seriously damage FG.

The divergence between the front bench and the rest of the parliamentary party is quite striking.

Even if Kenny wins, if as rumoured it goes 40-30 in his favour, he'll effectively have been propped up by the MEPs and Senators and is a dead man walking.

[Mr A]

Which is why I think in the end he won't. Kenny just about surviving with most of his front bench not willing to continue is probably their worst case scenario and they may just have the brains to avoid it.

[Mr A]

Kenny wins the vote. No further detail yet.

[Dodge]

My own guess is that Kenny resigns within weeks and opens the leadership vote up. Someone comes in to trump Bruton and "unite the party".

[dahamsta]

A very slim majority I'd guess. If Dodge is right, Bruton's support'll be injured in a big way. Coveney might get his chance after all.

[Spudulika]

Bruton had the wrong people backing him - Varadkar? He figures himself to be the next leader of the world! Looks all downhill for FG now, now election soon and FF limp on.

[mypost]

My own guess is that Kenny resigns within weeks and opens the leadership vote up.

Well that's the second heave he has survived in a matter of months. He isn't going to resign. He has a job to win the next election and help clear up the mess left behind. People complain about Kenny's lack of charisma and leadership skills, but that can be said of them all. He's the only one from 2007 still standing.

Find it disgraceful that a man that brought the party up from laughing stock status 8 years ago to the verge of top dog, is getting stabbed by his own. Find it equally disgraceful that rebel FF'ers who called for Cowen's head weeks ago, voted for him last Tuesday.

Politics for Loonies.

[bennocelt]

Well that's the second heave he has survived in a matter of months. He isn't going to resign. He has a job to win the next election and help clear up the mess left behind. People complain about Kenny's lack of charisma and leadership skills, but that can be said of them all. He's the only one from 2007 still standing.

Find it disgraceful that a man that brought the party up from laughing stock status 8 years ago to the verge of top dog, is getting stabbed by his own. Find it equally disgraceful that rebel FF'ers who called for Cowen's head weeks ago, voted for him last Tuesday.

Politics for Loonies.

He lost the last election. In football it would be like missing a sitter!!!!!!!!!!!

[OneRedArmy]

Miriam Lord characterised it as a victory for those who eat their dinner in the middle of the day over the cappuccino set :)

[Fr Damo]

[QUOTE=bennocelt;1368906]He lost the last election. In football it would be like missing a sitter!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm no FG..er but,

they had 30 seats before 2007, they ended up with 50 or a 66% increase. They also have majorities on most of the county councils (the grass roots I am sick of hearing about) so I don't think Kenny lost the last general election. IMO Labour lost the last one by standing still as FF lost seats.

Secondly, not going into Government was a blessing in disguise for FG (the election to lose was 2007) cos they would in s similar position now to the current lot in not having a pot to pi$$ in and run the country. Let nobody be niave to asssume that FG/Labour would have been able to borrow less in 2009 and 2010 if they were in power, the spending path for 2007 - 2012 was set in 2002 - 2007.

Does anyone think Kenny might actually have some metal about him and might be a good leader. All sides in the last battle say he is a man of principle, values and hard work and seems a pretty good campaigner. Maybe it is as some suggest, the media who don't like him!

[bennocelt]

[QUOTE]


I'm no FG..er but,

they had 30 seats before 2007, they ended up with 50 or a 66% increase. They also have majorities on most of the county councils (the grass roots I am sick of hearing about) so I don't think Kenny lost the last general election. IMO Labour lost the last one by standing still as FF lost seats.

Secondly, not going into Government was a blessing in disguise for FG (the election to lose was 2007) cos they would in s similar position now to the current lot in not having a pot to pi$$ in and run the country. Let nobody be niave to asssume that FG/Labour would have been able to borrow less in 2009 and 2010 if they were in power, the spending path for 2007 - 2012 was set in 2002 - 2007.

Does anyone think Kenny might actually have some metal about him and might be a good leader. All sides in the last battle say he is a man of principle, values and hard work and seems a pretty good campaigner. Maybe it is as some suggest, the media who don't like him!


What country are you living in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Spudulika]

Bennocelt, the best thing Kenny and FG did (as well as Labour) was not forming a government. It's proved that the Greens have suffered from going in with the hooks and crooks of FF and I'm pretty sure the FG will not call for an election until at least next year.

It will be an interesting front bench, and nobody knows if this has all be orchestrated - what are the odds that Bruton will be back on the front bench?

[bennocelt]

Not forming a government? When? They didnt even get a sniff..................
Yeah FF are a toxic - PDs, Greens, Labour years ago........................ but if there was an effective opposition. Enda Kenny is a decent man, but he is no leader, and the Labour party are all things to everyman and no backbone.............what bet that SF will go into coalition with FF in 2 years time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dahamsta]

Surprised we have so many Kenny fanboys here. Perhaps I should be offering a free guide dog with every club membership? :)

[Fr Damo]

Not forming a government? When? They didnt even get a sniff..................
Yeah FF are a toxic - PDs, Greens, Labour years ago........................ but if there was an effective opposition. Enda Kenny is a decent man, but he is no leader, and the Labour party are all things to everyman and no backbone.............what bet that SF will go into coalition with FF in 2 years time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck with that.......



[QUOTE=dahamsta;1368954]Surprised we have so many Kenny fanboys here. Perhaps I should be offering a free guide dog with every club membership? :)



I'm off to give Roy Keane a hand walking triggs!

[bennocelt]

[QUOTE]


Good luck with that.......

!

Not that I agree with that Damo just that FF always seem to survive and they can always rely on some party to go into coalition with them. Is there any way at all we can wipe out that 25% that always vote FF????????? Must be some vaccine out there

[OneRedArmy]

To say that the best thing FG did was not to go into Government is highly debatable. Some would argue its cowardice of the highest order to avoid taking tough decisions, and if we look across the water, the Tories and Libdems haven't shirked the challenge.

In any case, its fairly clear that the reason they didn't go into Government wasn't due to some clever strategy to let FF hang themselves a bit more, it was, as someone mentioned above, because Inda missed an open goal.

If you look back over the last 5 years at what we've "found out" about FF (I'll ignore the fact that the signs were there for a decade previously), combined with a weak Labour party, the PDs fading away (always brings a smile to my face) and SF support tailing off, it was all set up for FG, not only to get in, but to dominate. A Garrett Fitzgerald/John Bruton-led party would've walked the last election.

Inda may be capable underneath the robotic exterior, but the wider public haven't warmed to him, despite having the guts of a decade to do so. He's not going to change the wider opinion at this stage, so he's a deadweight anchor to FG. However well they do, they would do better without him.

[Spudulika]

I believe that if FG had taken power at the last election (when they could have put together a rainbow coalition again) they'd be out of power by now and destroyed. Put simply, everyone in Leinster House knows where the bodies are buried and everybody knows what's coming down. It's no surprise that every so often (I was watching a Dail debate, god preserve me, with Brian Lenihan defending bank policy) something leaks about another payment into AngloIrish or some such bankrupt government backer. When the dirt really comes out the country is going to be in shock, then trouble and it's far worse than what we have now.

I'm not a Kenny backer, far from it, I think he's a watery twit who is played to perfection by Nob Nation, but I don't see any other real leader of consequence in FG.

ORA, I said in an earlier post, in any decent democracy FF would be disbanded by now, they're to decent society as Tito was to humanity - polar opposites. I do know some FF'ers who are decent and good people, though I do not want them in power and have always refused to vote for them. The country is not going to change anytime soon because there is no appetite for change - no matter how the opposition perform. As bennocelt points out - until we get rid of that 25% we're stuck.

[mypost]

In any case, its fairly clear that the reason they didn't go into Government wasn't due to some clever strategy to let FF hang themselves a bit more, it was, as someone mentioned above, because Inda missed an open goal.

Inda may be capable underneath the robotic exterior, but the wider public haven't warmed to him, despite having the guts of a decade to do so. He's not going to change the wider opinion at this stage, so he's a deadweight anchor to FG. However well they do, they would do better without him.

The public haven't warmed to him, but they wouldn't warm to anyone. Did anyone outside of Southern England warm to Cameron? Doesn't matter, he's in now, with a mandate to sort out their mess.

Enda took a party that was 50 seats behind FF in 2002, to head 76 opposition TD's in the Dail. He didn't get an open goal to miss a sitter last time, but he's since helped make his party the biggest in the country in 8 years. And now what happens? Some opportunists want him removed, after all that work.

[bennocelt]

The public haven't warmed to him, but they wouldn't warm to anyone. Did anyone outside of Southern England warm to Cameron? Doesn't matter, he's in now, with a mandate to sort out their mess.

Enda took a party that was 50 seats behind FF in 2002, to head 76 opposition TD's in the Dail. He didn't get an open goal to miss a sitter last time, but he's since helped make his party the biggest in the country in 8 years. And now what happens? Some opportunists want him removed, after all that work.

Come on................he isnt even able to sort out his own party and your talking about him as leader of the country in the future.

[OneRedArmy]

The public haven't warmed to him, but they wouldn't warm to anyone. Did anyone outside of Southern England warm to Cameron? Doesn't matter, he's in now, with a mandate to sort out their mess.Enough warmed to him to get him in power!

Enda took a party that was 50 seats behind FF in 2002, to head 76 opposition TD's in the Dail. .You've just compared two things that actually don't mean anything when compared?

The relevant fact is that he added 20 TDs from 2002, which given what went on in that 5 year period, both in terms of the economic situation and the truth that emerged as to way Bertie, Cowan & Co run themselves, was an abject and pitiful performance. It was less than 4 of the 5 elections in the 80s for example.


He didn't get an open goal to miss a sitter last time, but he's since helped make his party the biggest in the country in 8 years. And now what happens? Some opportunists want him removed, after all that work.Biggest in the country?!? What measure, TDs? No, still FF. Polling? No, Labour have taken that one.

He's up against a bunch of inbreds and crooks and you're trumpeting a performance that is worse than at any time since the 60s?!

[mypost]

Enough warmed to him to get him in power!

Unsurprisingly, related question not answered. :rolleyes:


The relevant fact is that he added 20 TDs from 2002, which given what went on in that 5 year period, both in terms of the economic situation

What went on in that period? The economy grew almost every year.


the truth that emerged as to way Bertie, Cowan & Co run themselves.

The truth didn't emerge, in Joe and Joanna Public's eyes, until the last election was over.


Biggest in the country?!?What measure,

Biggest in local councils.


TDs? No, still FF. He's up against a bunch of inbreds and crooks

Those inbreds and crooks are always elected, given the FF support base. You don't need me to tell you that. FF will always have the most individual TD's in the Dail, even in opposition. Every other party has to scramble for the rest, and FG and Labour have to get more seats combined than FF, in order to get into government. That's how our system works.

[Lim till i die]

Can anyone give me 5 good reasons why Bruton or Coveney would be a better bet than Enda??

Not being flippant, just curios like.

[dahamsta]

Enda
Enda
Enda
Enda
Enda

[mypost]

Saw the two opposition leaders speech on the no confidence motion during the week. While Enda kept on hitting the target with his speech, Gilmore's dissolved into essentially a pre-election speech which had little if no relevance to the motion concerned.

[Dodge]

Saw the two opposition leaders speech on the no confidence motion during the week. While Enda kept on hitting the target with his speech, Gilmore's dissolved into essentially a pre-election speech which had little if no relevance to the motion concerned.

Thats because the motion itself was nothing more than electioneering by FG. Completely pointles motion they knew they'd lose. Unless you think they did it for the good of the country?

[Lim till i die]

Enda
Enda
Enda
Enda
Enda


Er, ya, cheers Adam.

Personnally, I wouldn't vote for a party led by Simon Coveney if twas to safe my life anyway, has always struck me as being about as genuine as a hoors kiss. I can just picture the smug dripping off the likes of himself and Varadkar at the top table as they shag the poor.

Actually screw it, that's just Fine Gael all over. :)

[mypost]

Thats because the motion itself was nothing more than electioneering by FG. Completely pointles motion they knew they'd lose.

Everyone knew the result beforehand. But it was Labour doing the electioneering, and FG focussing on the motion. I've seen Kenny nail speeches on motions before, and it was no surprise he did again. No surprise either that Gilmore didn't. His strength is the "soundbite", and that's why he's the strongest leader in the polls.