Sammy Morrow: Betting case

[mrtndvn]

for the benefit of those who are not registered to CCFC's forum, can you tell us what that says? Another internet rumour is hardly a reliable source. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my response that you were referring to previous Derry players now at Bohs.

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/3120/

[Dalymountrower]

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/3120/

Fair enough, done up like a kipper.


RULE 100. BETTING / GAMBLING
Anyone who directly or indirectly bets, instructs someone to bet on their behalf, or provides others with
information for the purpose of betting or gambling on a result, conduct or progress of a match or
competition in which that person or his club is participating or has control over, shall be subject to
disciplinary sanctions.

[SkStu]

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/articles/3120/

well then my original response stands. If he is found to have breached the FAI rules and subsequently suspended so be it and we should be allowed to terminate his contract. If not, then the issue will be over as far as im concerned.

Plus there is a huge difference in betting on your own teams games and the bets that McGlynn has made.

[micls]

well then my original response stands. If he is found to have breached the FAI rules and subsequently suspended so be it and we should be allowed to terminate his contract.


I very much doubt you would be able to terminate his contract for it.

It's a standard player contract and id be shocked if it mentioned being able to terminate on the basis of breaking an FAI rule

[Longfordian]

There's quite a discrepancy between the punishment the FAI gave Dempsey and FIFA gave Morrow. It'll be interesting to see what McGlynn gets, the fact that his own team weren't involved in any games may mean a less severe punshment than Morrow but we'll see.

[SkStu]

im not sure if would be allowed to either micls but it doesnt mean that, on principle, we shouldnt be allowed to. That said, the more i read about it, the sorrier i feel for the guy and if he does get suspended, then maybe us fining him for a portion of his suspension would be a better idea, as was mentioned on the Bohs mb.

[MariborKev]

Plus there is a huge difference in betting on your own teams games and the bets that McGlynn has made.

The rules don't specify a difference.

[SkStu]

i didnt say they did but i think most sane people would acknowledge that there is a difference in the two offences.

[John83]

That's usually called robbing!
No, father. 'Tis my money, I just didn't want to fill out the forms.

[Jicked]

RULE 100. BETTING / GAMBLING
Anyone who directly or indirectly bets, instructs someone to bet on their behalf, or provides others with
information for the purpose of betting or gambling on a result, conduct or progress of a match or
competition in which that person or his club is participating or has control over, shall be subject to
disciplinary sanctions.

I didn't know the rule was that strict. There was a Sligo player last year putting stuff up on his facebook about betting on a game he was playing in which I presume would see the book thrown at him (he backed himself for first scorer if I remember correctly, I posted about it at the time)

[kdjaC]

Assume ignorance is a fine plea according to the PFAI?

[SkStu]

Kildare v Longford – 5 June 2009

based on the rule you posted Jicked, it looks like he's off the hook for that one as its a Div 1 game. :)

Anyone know if these rules were in force when Dempsey was suspended for two games for betting on a Pats game (which is also different to the bets that McGlynn made) a couple of seasons ago? Precedent there suggests a fine and short ban might suffice for McGlynn.

[kdjaC]

based on the rule you posted Jicked, it looks like he's off the hook for that one as its a Div 1 game. :)

Anyone know if these rules were in force when Dempsey was suspended for two games for betting on a Pats game (which is also different to the bets that McGlynn made) a couple of seasons ago? Precedent there suggests a fine and short ban might suffice for McGlynn.

they were in force he was uhh banned on the basis of the rules, which suggest to me these lads may be in more poop then they let on.

[pineapple stu]

(sorry no idea how to use report function)
Click the triangle under the post.

[brianw82]

I didn't know the rule was that strict. There was a Sligo player last year putting stuff up on his facebook about betting on a game he was playing in which I presume would see the book thrown at him (he backed himself for first scorer if I remember correctly, I posted about it at the time)

Alan Cawley, if I remember right. Playing for Pats at the time.

That was a classic thread. :)

[Dodge]

Anyone know if these rules were in force when Dempsey was suspended for two games for betting on a Pats game (which is also different to the bets that McGlynn made) a couple of seasons ago? Precedent there suggests a fine and short ban might suffice for McGlynn.
Dempsey was banned for 5 games under the very same rule (He was banned for 2 games by the club before the FAI/League sanction)

[Dodge]

i didnt say they did but i think most sane people would acknowledge that there is a difference in the two offences.

There may be a slight moral difference in terms of how fans of each club view it... But Dempsey bet on a single LOI game (in a double with a British game) that he wasn't involved in. McGlynn bet on 4 LOI games he wasn't involved in. I can't imagine how you think he'd get less than the 5 games Dempsey got (and as mentioned, he could not be sacked under the Standard playing Contract)

[shep]

There may be a slight moral difference in terms of how fans of each club view it... But Dempsey bet on a single LOI game (in a double with a British game) that he wasn't involved in. McGlynn bet on 4 LOI games he wasn't involved in. I can't imagine how you think he'd get less than the 5 games Dempsey got (and as mentioned, he could not be sacked under the Standard playing Contract)

I know at least 10 l.o.i players past and present who regularly do/did weekend accumulators involving other teams. They were certainly not secrative about it and i am sure were unaware of consequences.I think they thought as long as it was not a game they were involved in that it was ok

[de bowez]

There may be a slight moral difference in terms of how fans of each club view it... But Dempsey bet on a single LOI game (in a double with a British game) that he wasn't involved in. McGlynn bet on 4 LOI games he wasn't involved in. I can't imagine how you think he'd get less than the 5 games Dempsey got (and as mentioned, he could not be sacked under the Standard playing Contract)

Read the rule posted above "in which that person or his club is participating or has control over" of course Dempseys was far worse than the 3 games McGlynn bet on - the 1st Div game can obv be ruled out.

[pineapple stu]

Were Derry competing in the "League of Ireland Premier Division" or the "League of Ireland"?

A case could probably be made for both.

[Ash]

Seeing as we're in the Brandywell on Friday, anyone know who Sammy is betting on?

[SkStu]

Were Derry competing in the "League of Ireland Premier Division" or the "League of Ireland"?

A case could probably be made for both.

it is probably meant to cover both but i dont think the language really supports that. "participates in or has control over" is pretty weak in my opinion. Did you win the League of Ireland Division One Championship or did you just come 11th in the League of Ireland? (just trying to illustrate my point)

[pineapple stu]

We won the League of Ireland First Division. But "Division" really suggests a partition, so really, we were in the same competition as Derry last year, just in a different part of the same competition.

[SkStu]

There may be a slight moral difference in terms of how fans of each club view it... But Dempsey bet on a single LOI game (in a double with a British game) that he wasn't involved in. McGlynn bet on 4 LOI games he wasn't involved in. I can't imagine how you think he'd get less than the 5 games Dempsey got (and as mentioned, he could not be sacked under the Standard playing Contract)

Dempsey played for Pats and bet on a Pats game that he was not involved in. McGlynn played for Derry and bet on 8 teams (4 ties), none of which were Derry. Morrow bet on games he particpated in. 3 degrees of the same offence and I think there is an obvious difference between each instance. In my opinion, McGlynns is the lesser of the 3 offences.

[SkStu]

We won the League of Ireland First Division. But "Division" really suggests a partition, so really, we were in the same competition as Derry last year, just in a different part of the same competition.

i disagree - two seperate trophies, two seperate champions - therefore two seperate competitions only one of which he participated in or had control over.

[osarusan]

Does a player betting on a Prem division game he's not involved in (nor his team) have more control over the result than if betting on a game in a different division?

[Schumi]

Were Derry competing in the "League of Ireland Premier Division" or the "League of Ireland"?

A case could probably be made for both.
Or neither, retrospectively.

[SkStu]

Does a player betting on a Prem division game he's not involved in (nor his team) have more control over the result than if betting on a game in a different division?

thats not what the rule speaks to Osa. Once your team is participating, the control part of the law doesnt matter as you have already breached the rule. You dont necessarily have to have control over the game - it is just an offence to bet on the "result, conduct or progress of a match or competition in which that person or his club is participating or has control over".

The control part speaks to cases like Morrow's i.e. the player had control over the result conduct or progress of the game (because he played).

[Dodge]

I know at least 10 l.o.i players past and present who regularly do/did weekend accumulators involving other teams. They were certainly not secrative about it and i am sure were unaware of consequences.I think they thought as long as it was not a game they were involved in that it was ok
Yep, I'd imagine we all do.

As above, Dempsey bet on a game he had no control over. McGlynn did the same.

The argument is over whether the rule applies to all matches within a competition (which I think it does) or whether its specifically applies to matches his club were involved in (which I assume Bohs fans are arguing)

I should point out, I've no real problem with players betting on LOI games they're not playing in (regardless of who they play for, and who they bet on). Others can have their own morality thresholds higher.

[mrtndvn]

Dempsey played for Pats and bet on a Pats game that he was not involved in. McGlynn played for Derry and bet on 8 teams (4 ties), none of which were Derry. Morrow bet on games he particpated in. 3 degrees of the same offence and I think there is an obvious difference between each instance. In my opinion, McGlynns is the lesser of the 3 offences.

Wrong. So far what we know is,
1/ Morrow bet on Derry games.
2/ McGlynn used the same computer as Morrow for a number of bets.
3/ Betfair were concerned about Mcglynn's betting pattern
4/ McGlynn has admitted to breaking rules by betting on 4 different matches.

You and many others are extremely naive to think that that is all McGlynn done, its simply all he as admitted to. It's well known that McGlynn likes a bet, his statement alone suggests he only ever bet on 4 loi games? Thats sheer madness in itself

[Dodge]

3/ Betfair were concerned about Mcglynn's betting pattern


really? Haven't heard any mention of this? They'd only be concerned if he was betting 6 figures regularly, and never losing

[mrtndvn]

really? Haven't heard any mention of this? They'd only be concerned if he was betting 6 figures regularly, and never losing

Well by reporting him to the FAI i would call that pretty concerned.

[Dodge]

Again, how do you know this? Betfair would not know his occupation.

[SkStu]

1/ Morrow bet on Derry games.
Obviously. Common knowledge at this stage.

2/ McGlynn used the same computer as Morrow for a number of bets.
How do we know this?

3/ Betfair were concerned about Mcglynn's betting pattern
How do we know this?

4/ McGlynn has admitted to breaking rules by betting on 4 different matches.
Ive never said otherwise.


You and many others are extremely naive to think that that is all McGlynn done, its simply all he as admitted to. It's well known that McGlynn likes a bet, his statement alone suggests he only ever bet on 4 loi games? Thats sheer madness in itself

Sure, it may be naive but if there is more to it than that, then it will come out. Otherwise youre just speculating.

What really is madness is the thought that Morrow, Dempsey and McGlynn were the only players to have bet on LOI football.

[mrtndvn]

From today's Irish Daily Mail

McGlynn was identified, along with a third person also with Derry City at the time but not a player, because they used the same computer to place bets as shamed serial gambler Sammy Morrow, who left Derry at the end of last season.

Betfair, who passed on information to the FAI about Morrow's extensive gambling, spotted that the same internet provider address was being used by McGlynn.

[wexfordned]

Wrong. So far what we know is,
1/ Morrow bet on Derry games.
2/ McGlynn used the same computer as Morrow for a number of bets.
3/ Betfair were concerned about Mcglynn's betting pattern
4/ McGlynn has admitted to breaking rules by betting on 4 different matches.

You and many others are extremely naive to think that that is all McGlynn done, its simply all he as admitted to. It's well known that McGlynn likes a bet, his statement alone suggests he only ever bet on 4 loi games? Thats sheer madness in itself

McGlynn must know or have been told that Betfair would have an account history of all his bets. All the FAI have to do is get a copy of this & go through it to see what he backed. Admitting he backed 4 games is not madness when it's so easy to prove/disprove.

So betfair reported him because it's the same IP address not because of betting patterns.

[SkStu]

The argument is over whether the rule applies to all matches within a competition (which I think it does) or whether its specifically applies to matches his club were involved in (which I assume Bohs fans are arguing)

im absolutely NOT making that argument. It is quite clear that McGlynn broke the law of the game. Im trying to put his offence into perspective compared to Morrows or Dempseys as to why a similar ban/fine to Dempseys might be more approriate than Morrows (based on what he has said).


I should point out, I've no real problem with players betting on LOI games they're not playing in (regardless of who they play for, and who they bet on). Others can have their own morality thresholds higher.

Me neither.

[Dodge]

Whoa there fellah. Thats a massive, massive difference from

Betfair were concerned about Mcglynn's betting pattern and

Well by reporting him to the FAI i would call that pretty concerned.


to


Betfair, who passed on information to the FAI about Morrow's extensive gambling, spotted that the same internet provider address was being used by McGlynn.[/I]

Thats simply that the FAI asked for info on Morrow, and part of that info was that another user was using the same IP address.

No need to get ahead of yourself as regards what McGlynn has or hasn't done

[mrtndvn]

No need to get ahead of yourself as regards what McGlynn has or hasn't done

I don't think there is a difference. No matter what the reason, Betfair reported McGlynn to the FAI, therefore they were concerned.

I'm not getting ahead of myself with anything. I simply stated the facts as they have come out.

While I have no proof as to how much more McGlynn did or didn't do, I think the facts suggest that there is a fair possibility that there might be more to this, and this isn't simply about throwing 50 quid on Kildare to win.

[Dodge]

I don't think there is a difference. No matter what the reason, Betfair reported McGlynn to the FAI, therefore they were concerned.

I'm not getting ahead of myself with anything. I simply stated the facts as they have come out.

But there not the facts, are they? They were not concerned about McGlynn until they investigated Morrow, and they didn't report him to the FAI. The provided more info on Morrow's case. Some of which lead to McGlynn.

McGlynn has stated he made 4 bets using betfair. Every transaction is traceable. Why would he announce the 4 9and mention that it could be checked on betfair) if those checks would throw up more.

[mrtndvn]

But there not the facts, are they? They were not concerned about McGlynn until they investigated Morrow, and they didn't report him to the FAI. The provided more info on Morrow's case. Some of which lead to McGlynn.

McGlynn has stated he made 4 bets using betfair. Every transaction is traceable. Why would he announce the 4 9and mention that it could be checked on betfair) if those checks would throw up more.

They are facts Dodge. It doesn't matter when Betfair/ FAI became concerned, you have to become concerned at some point. There was a time they weren't concerned about Morrow.

Betfair did report McGlynn to the FAI.

Betfair is not the only betting facility in Ireland, I would not rule out the possibility that he may of placed a bet somewhere else.

As for someone connected with Derry City last year coming out and releasing a false statement.. I have no idea why he may do that, but it was hardly uncommon last year. I assume I don't need a link to back this up.

And on that note, as someone said last year, "The truth will out".

Dodge, a lot of **** when on in Derry last year, stuff was down by Directors, Players and Backroom staff, a lot hasn't come out yet. But this is not about throwing twenty notes on Bray to lose a game, and it should be becoming pretty clear at this point.

[wexfordned]

They are facts Dodge. It doesn't matter when Betfair/ FAI became concerned, you have to become concerned at some point. There was a time they weren't concerned about Morrow.

Betfair did report McGlynn to the FAI.

Betfair is not the only betting facility in Ireland, I would not rule out the possibility that he may of placed a bet somewhere else.

As for someone connected with Derry City last year coming out and releasing a false statement.. I have no idea why he may do that, but it was hardly uncommon last year. I assume I don't need a link to back this up.

And on that note, as someone said last year, "The truth will out".

Dodge, a lot of **** when on in Derry last year, stuff was down by Directors, Players and Backroom staff, a lot hasn't come out yet. But this is not about throwing twenty notes on Bray to lose a game, and it should be becoming pretty clear at this point.

As dodge points out, why would he lie about his betting when it's so easily traced. It's simple enough to ask betfair for an account history.

He claims he backed other teams as he assumed (like I and many others) that this wasn't against the rules. Anything else you claim is bulls*it & wild exagerations you cannot possibly know are true or not.

A suspension & fine along the lines of what Dempsey got would seem the most likely outcome.
All that's missing from your post is:
http://blog.mattalgren.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/think-of-the-children.jpg

[mrtndvn]

As dodge points out, why would he lie about his betting when it's so easily traced. It's simple enough to ask betfair for an account history.

He claims he backed other teams as he assumed (like I and many others) that this wasn't against the rules. Anything else you claim is bulls*it & wild exagerations you cannot possibly know are true or not.

A suspension & fine along the lines of what Dempsey got would seem the most likely outcome.

Why did this guy lie?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiIP_KDQmXs People lie, get over it.

Also please, Betfair is not the only place in this country where McGlynn would of been able to place another bet. His mate Morrow only today is still claiming that he didnt bet against Derry despite the bet been placed on his account. Where do we draw the line at believing this bull***t from them?

I know what i know, and it will come out, in the mean time if we are playing the picture game

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3899953986_382a73a5a0.jpg

I think this is my last post on the matter, you clearly believe every word of the statement and nothing I will say will change it. I just hope u never get taked for a fool by the players that you support.

[Dodge]

Betfair did report McGlynn to the FAI.
.

HOw did they know he was a footballer?

Jesus lad, a bit of reality here

[refjohn]

And the total irony of all this is Derry are installing an interactive scoreboard to show highlights etc... sponsored by BOYLESPORTS who have bought 1 hours advertising per game to give in-match betting odds allowing fans to text in bets. Should be in place for Athlone game tomorrow - easy 3 points for them then as the Derry team take to pitch with mobiles in hand :) Nobody can accuse Boylesports of not identifying a good business market anyway.

[DRDoc]

I presume betting on games in the same league you play in is not allowed in other jurisdications either?

[pineapple stu]

Betfair reported McGlynn to the FAI, therefore they were concerned.
Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean you're concerned. You can be helping with investigations, or even just legally obliged to report things.

[Dodge]

Reporting something doesn't necessarily mean you're concerned. You can be helping with investigations, or even just legally obliged to report things.
And they didn't report him to the FAI, as they wouldn't have know what he did (just like they don't know what I do...)

Betfair have an agreement with the FAI about exchanging info, and one of the parts is that if the FAI ask for info on certain matters, betfair provide them with it. Clearly they asked for info on Morrow, and as part of the info they said something along the lines of "he made this bet @ this time from this IP address...." "This IP address was also used by username xxxx to bet on this event at this time..."

[bennocelt]

Who is the QPR legend that was infamous for gambling - my mind is mushy..............................

[Hitman]

Who is the QPR legend that was infamous for gambling - my mind is mushy..............................

Stan Bowles.

"If he could pass a bookies as well as he passes a football, he'd be a very rich man." - Ernie Tagg