Seachtain na Gaeilge

[culloty82]

Yes, it's that time of year again when everyone dusts off their words of Irish, but like the New Year's resolution, most of us run out of steam by Patrick's Day. I liked the language in school, but these days I'm one of those people put down on the Census that they can speak it, but almost never do. So are events like SnaG a waste of time, or will the Gaelscoileanna etc breathe new life into Irish ?

[superfrank]

Seachtain na Gaeilge has never raised any more interest in the language in my experience. Those who know it, will speak it if they get the chance (as most would do all year round), those who don't know it still won't bother to learn it.

Imo, Irish should be discontinued as a compulsory subject in school. It'd be far better to focus those hours on international languages and PE. I don't see the point, apart from the historial and cultural day-dreaming, of making a regional, minority language compulsory learning for all students in this country. It'd be like teaching all Italians Sardó or teaching all Spaniards Galician.

[juan]

Ciunas, bothar, cailin, bainne.

[peadar1987]

It would be criminal to let the language die. Most people in Malta speak Maltese, most in Catalunya speak Catalan. If we give up on our language, we're giving up such a massive part of the culture our ancestors fought so hard to create a country for.

Irish teaching needs to be reformed, sure. We spent so much time learning how to analyse poetry and literature instead of learning actual, *practical Irish. If we're going to ditch a subject, ditch English literature. I'm never going to use any of that stuff again.

Apart from the fact that we're terrible at languages, the Irish education system isn't so bad. You wouldn't believe some of the ignorance I encounter over here in the UK, something I attribute to the narrowness of their education system.

*preemptive defence on the practicality of Irish!

[juan]

On a more serious note. I think it's a decent attempt to high light the language. I always make a decent attempt to speak it amongst friends. Is brea liom Gaeilge!
Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam.

[superfrank]

Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam.
I've never bought this.

Look at all those countries in the Americas. None of them speak their indigenous language but they all have strong national identities.

Imo, people who want to keep Irish going are just afraid of becoming more and more like the English. I respect the cultural attachment but we won't stop being Irish if we lose the language.

[juan]

people who want to keep Irish going are just afraid of becoming more and more like the English.
That's a very naive statement. Could it not be for the love of a language. I was born in England, I have lots of English family and the reason I speak Irish is because it is a great language. I know too Nigerian lads who learned it in school and can converse. I love being part of a minority who speaks the language well. Why should we let our language die?

[kingdom hoop]

I've never bought this.

To be fair, I think it's more intended as a rallying call than an intellectually unimpeachable statement. Similar, perhaps, to the way "You'll never beat the Irish" doesn't stand up to empirical analysis, but is a catchy way to express your support.

You could say, "Harhar, you might think you can beat the Irish, cos many have, but we'll put up a decent battle all the same," - to similarly paraphrase tír gan teanga, "I think a vibrant native language is an enjoyable and worthwhile way to preserve some culture for future generations of a small, outward-looking English-speaking country in an era of increasing cultural homogeneity around the world".
Handier just to belt out the shorter ones and hope the audience will be convinced by the meaning behind them.


Imo, people who want to keep Irish going are just afraid of becoming more and more like the English.

Wow. What a characterisation! Maybe 90 years ago that would've been more accurate. But I think our country is more (re)established and stable nowadays, such that the Irish-language movement isn't propelled by people fearful of becoming more like the English.

I'll speak for myself to keep the discussion manageable. Certainly in my case, it's pure and simple enjoyment, with a splash of preservationist duty.

I enjoy watching TG4, I love Irish-language music, I like reading Irish-language articles, my favourite radio show is on RnaG, I love speaking Irish. Do I do those things because I'm afraid of being like an English person? No. Simply, I enjoy them. It's not a perverse enjoyment of "haha, ye feckin ethnic-cleansing, colonising British toffs, look at me now, dancing to my Kíla CD, reading Foinse and watching Seo Spóirt, we showed ye." No, it's a nice clean, natural feeling. I believe it's important that Irish is promoted so that others can have similar opportunities.

[eamo1]

There was a conference last week in Galway exploring idea's to make it more popular.1 interesting thing seriously being considered is teaching History and Geography to Primary School kids through Irish.Other suggestions include more dual signage on roads etc plus duel labelling of Irish and English on grocery's.
I do not think the language should be allowed die.Its not a fear of becoming more English,its just a genuine fear of becoming less Irish,because thats what we are!

[superfrank]

I don't have a problem with promoting the language through Seachtain na Gaeilge or TG4 (which I watch a lof ot) or RnaG.

My problem with Irish is that it is a compulsory subject for all Irish students. Like I said earlier, I don't think a regional, minority language should be compulsory learning for the entire population. I never said I wanted the Irish language to die or to have it's support removed. I think it should be up to the individual to decide whether they want to learn it and if they do, they have the support there to help them out. However, if they don't want to learn it, they shouldn't have it forced down their throats for 14 years. The fact that you need to pass Irish to pass your Leaving Cert is another joke of the Irish education system.

For instance, if a Spaniard living in Madrid has an interest in Galician or Catalan or Basque, they can learn it on their own. There's plenty of support mechanisms for the language, like language schools, language newspapers and television stations. I have no problem with having the same structures for Irish. However, not all Spaniards are interested in learning those languages and, luckily for them, not all of them have to learn it at school, only the ones living in those respective regions.

I went to all-Irish school for 14 years and, thankfully, I enjoyed it. However, the majority of my classmates didn't like it and loathed the fact that their parents sent them to all-Irish schools. Most of them have forgotten a lot of their Irish and some are quite bitter that they had to take so much on. And I can understand why. Unless you like the language, it's pointless to learn. It only offers opportunities in Ireland (a very small part of the country, at that). Outside of Ireland, it's utterly useless. Now, French or Spanish or Chinese, they're all useful outside of Ireland and they open up countless possibilities.

Of the people who went to school with me, I can think of about seven (out of 25) who have shown an active interest in the language (being involved in Irish language groups or studying Irish in college) since leaving school. I don't know a single one who has a job which requires fluent Irish. Of the people I know who went to English schools, the numbers are a lot lower.

From my experience, compulsory Irish hasn't helped the language: those who like it, will try and learn it. Those who don't have any interest, see it as a waste of time.

EDIT - I'll retract what I said about Irish people only wanting to preserve Irish to maintain another difference from the English.

[osarusan]

Look at all those countries in the Americas. None of them speak their indigenous language but they all have strong national identities.

I'm not sure you can compare the two. The people who don't speak the indigenous languages in the Americas are not the indigenous people. The indigenous peoples, huge numbers of 'native' tribes, still do speak their native languages and also have very weak national identities.

As for the main point, I think that the main problem with Irish is that at the moment it is seen as a goal rather than a tool. People are made to study Irish so that they are able to speak Irish. For the most part, successful language learners see language as a tool (which helps their financial condition, for example) rather than a goal in itself. This leads to greater motivation as the question 'what's the point?' is rarely asked.

[juan]

Superfrank, I accept your point on Irish in the educational system but in my opinion the problem with that is that it's being taught completely wrong. It's a language and should be treated as such, just like the French syllabus. The Irish syllabus should be heavily based on oral work. It's the only way to learn a language. It should not have literary works involved.

[Bluebeard]

One of the main concerns I think you have, Superfrank, is the compulsory nature of Irish, and it is clear that you are a fan of the language yourself. I completely understand those concerns.

However, I do think that Irish should be taught to a certain level at least, whether it is examinable or not. Strangely enough, you seldom hear of people demanding an end to the teaching of religion in schools: granted it is necessary to do it for the exams, but it has been added in recent years as an exam subject - yet no outcry, even though it is surely more alienating in the society of modern Ireland. Irish, like any language is not something that creates a sectarian divide - religion, by strict definition, and general practice - in Ireland moreso than most places - is.

One of the major problems has to be the nature of the syllabus. Personally, I enjoyed and found the lit parts of it easier, but I know it should be toned down. The actual teaching of the grammar of the language starting in primary - unless it has changed from the Buntús - has to be revised; it has signally failed to promote the language in a positive light. It has been taught like a museum piece far too often, where is should be taught like the modern language that it is, still evolving, with people using it regularly, and as an advantage to gaining work. I am presuming that a number of civil service jobs still require it, which may have changed, but having Irish is an advantage working in TV in Ireland these days, for example - in these cases, it is not absolutely vital, but it is an advantage, which would be a sensible way to approach it.

The fact is that not only the use of Irish is eroded, but so too is Hiberno-English, the Irish dialect of English. Little phrases peculiar to Ireland are disappearing from the collective consciousness. Aside ever from this, it is also the case that the English language is being poorly taught / received: the standard of the oral and written language in the country has certainly been less than brilliant, though far better than in Britain. Neither of these things are mentioned much, the focus is on Irish - and there is a problem, one that won't be solved by any magic bullet solution - and other problems are brushed under the rug.

Seachas sin, is breá liom freisin an Gaeilge. Táim im chonaí i Londain anois, agus is fuath liom nárbh fhéidir le éinne cúpla focail a thuigeann. De réir sin, dár liom go bhfuil mo chuid gaeilge ag dul i laidgh, mar is eol díobh anois:o

[culloty82]

Thankfully they're changing the secondary syllabus so that 40% of marks will be for the oral, but it's been proven that primary is the best time to teach a language, so like you've all said, time to cut down on grammar and aistí and concentrate on conversations. TG4 is excellent- Fíorscéal is one of the best documentary series in any language and GAA Beo will always get a good audience. I'd be hopeful about the language's future, but as with Maori and Hebrew, it'll be down to individual interest rather than official policies.

[pineapple stu]

Other suggestions include more dual signage on roads.
Simple stuff like that would be great. Stad instead of Stop. I remember seeing a few Géill Slí signs in Tipp years ago (don't know if they've been replaced since). Change town names (and associated signs) to the Irish when the difference between the Irish and the English is tiny (Seanchill v Shankill for example). Doesn't make things any less clear.


My problem with Irish is that it is a compulsory subject for all Irish students. Like I said earlier, I don't think a regional, minority language should be compulsory learning for the entire population.
First off, I'm not sure you can classify a national language as a regional one; I'm not sure what your logic is here? Irish isn't just restricted to parts of the west coast.

Secondly, I've always been of the opinion people of school going age are, to some extent, idiots who are influenced far too much by what is cool. People will drop Irish precisely as a form of protest. I know a fair few people of various ages (all long gone from school) who now say they wished they had more of the language. This could only become more common if you make Irish optional, and I don't see the point of that.

That said, I do think the curriculum needs an overhaul; the main reason I did pass Irish for the Leaving was because of the literature side of things (did pass English too).

I also think if you make Irish optional, why not make English and Maths optional? I've never analysed a work memo for literary merit, or used matrices to work out how much money I have in my account. It seems to me that if you make everything optional, you end up towards the English system, which many people seem to say is weaker, and less broad, than ours.

[passinginterest]

I have no great problem with Irish being a reqiured subject up to junior cert at least but I'd definitely like to see the way it's taught change. Primary school should be all about developing conversational Irish, that's the age at which it's easiest to learn a language, and the goal of learning any language is to be able to communicate orally using it. Junior cert Irish can start to introduce grammer and develop the written side, with examination being maybe 50-50 in terms of written and oral, with an emphasis placed on modern Irish, media, literature etc. After junior cert Irish literature should be an optional subject and would prove attractive for those who have learned the language in a practical manner and wish to expand their study of it.

I don't have much Irish myself, I hated it in school and scraped through hounours leaving cert, but I do think it would be a shame to let it die and it would be nice to see it more widely used. It's a nice language and a living part of our history.

[pineapple stu]

Primary school should be all about developing conversational Irish, that's the age at which it's easiest to learn a language, and the goal of learning any language is to be able to communicate orally using it.
I'd probably include cultural stuff like music and folklore in there as well, partly because I think it'd act as an extra hook at that age (using my opinion to extrapolate what everyone'd like, obviously), and partly because I think it's an underrated part of our culture.

[passinginterest]

I'd probably include cultural stuff like music and folklore in there as well, partly because I think it'd act as an extra hook at that age (using my opinion to extrapolate what everyone'd like, obviously), and partly because I think it's an underrated part of our culture.

I'd go along with that, and there'd probably have to be a small amount of work around the written side too but the main goal should be sending 12 year olds to secondary school with good quality conversational Irish.

[brendy_éire]

For instance, if a Spaniard living in Madrid has an interest in Galician or Catalan or Basque, they can learn it on their own.....However, not all Spaniards are interested in learning those languages and, luckily for them, not all of them have to learn it at school, only the ones living in those respective regions.

I don't really think you can compare the situation in Spain with Ireland. 'Standard' Spanish, as we know it, is Castillian. Other languages like Galician or Catalan are specific to their region. Someone from Madrid would have little interest in learning them, as they wouldn't culturally associate themselves with those regions. Whereas here, I think it's fair to say we most Irish people associate the language with the culture of Ireland.

Peadar, I don't buy that we're natually 'terrible' at languages. The problem with Irish (and all other languages taught in this country) is that we aren't teaching them the right way. Do what they do in other European countries, notably Netherlands and Scandanavia, teach subjects in another language. For instance, in Sweden you may get taught Maths solely in English. Having a few periods of a language a week isn't anywhere near enough to leave school with a competency in that language. My Irish is rubbish (though I'm starting a course on it next month). My French and German (which is studied for 5 years) are pretty poor too. It's pretty pointless doing 5 years of a language to come out the other end with very basic conversational skills.

The best example in Europe is, IMO, Luxembourg. They learn Luxembourgish as a first language at home, along with the first few years of primary school. German main is the language of primary school, French of secondary. In addition they get taught English in a subject or two, and maybe Spanish, Italian or Dutch along with that. The result is that virtually everyone in Luxembourg speaks 4 languages and they've the highest GDP in the world (I'll ignore Qatar and all it's oil).
It wouldn't be entirely difficult or expensive to implement here. I suspect the biggest problem would be getting enough teaching staff with knowledge of other languages (maybe we could ship some Luxembourgers in?).

[bennocelt]

For me it was simple - beaten into me at primary and then beaten out of me in secondary thanks to the brothers
But I would love to speak more Irish

[peadar1987]

Peadar, I don't buy that we're natually 'terrible' at languages.


Where did I say we were naturally terrible? :) I think we're terrible at language because the pervasiveness of English has made us lazy, and the way in which languages are taught in schools is shocking. I learnt probably as much French in two months working with French kids in an outdoor activity centre in the summer after second year college than I did in the 10 (yes, 10!) years I spent doing it in school. The curriculum is focused far too much on preparing people for exams. You can't learn a language by learning off set pieces by heart and vomiting them onto a page, as so many people now do for the Leaving. It's all about being exposed to the language in its natural form.

[dahamsta]

Simple stuff like that would be great. Stad instead of Stop.

I was only saying to the wife recently that the signs should be the other way around. At the moment, english is on top and ALL CAPS AND BOLD and Irish is underneath and Capitalised and Italic. It should be the other way around. Wales does a much better job of this and I'd guess it had a part to play in the resurgence of Welsh.

[pineapple stu]

I've noticed that alright, although I've also noticed some signs where the opposite is true, and I still notice the English first. Force of habit to look for the English, I suppose.

Agree Welsh is much more noticeable in Wales than Irish is here though.

[Royal rover]

seactaine na gaeilge attempts to highlight the importance of the language - in fairness we need something - it's moved away from the traditional stuff in recent years - check out ceoil 10 - some good tunes on it - bought it myself on itunes

As someone who went to irish primary school right up to junior cert - i personally believe it gave me an advantage in terms points for university - but that's it - i had serious problems when i moved into an english speaking school to do my leaving - history , geography were a nighmare along with Biology - there should be more emphasis on teaching it to a good standard in primary school - none of my mates that went to english schools could ever speak a word of it right up to LC

[hoops1]

Where is the Irish Thread that was on here a few weeks back. I think that should be brought back.

[John83]

Everyone talks about how it would be a shame to let it die, and yet we invest a huge amount of time, effort and money to teach people what exactly? I got a C1 in honours Irish in the Leaving Cert (I've always been weak at languages, particularly orally) and I couldn't hold a conversation in it.


I also think if you make Irish optional, why not make English and Maths optional? I've never analysed a work memo for literary merit, or used matrices to work out how much money I have in my account. It seems to me that if you make everything optional, you end up towards the English system, which many people seem to say is weaker, and less broad, than ours.
You perform a very narrow function in your job. That's not a criticism: it's a highly specialised function. So is mine. It's true of most people. We teach broadly because if we trained people only in what they know to become an accountant, they'd be mediocre accountants and ****ty people. Think of all the critical analysis you've made of John Delaney's actions over the years, of the analytical skill it takes to highlight inconsistency and nonsense in an FAI report, of the techniques you use when writing a match report so it doesn't read like one off Aertel. There are people on this very site who can barely write. It's not just function literacy they lack, but they actually struggle to express what they mean. Some of that is innate, but I think you're severely underestimating what you were exposed to in school.

[pineapple stu]

By a similar logic though, you could argue that what Irish I do have enables me to appreciate the culture and history of where I come from that bit more (particularly through etymology), and gives an extra discussion topic while abroad. Granted, that's more to do with my general interest than my work requirements, but then so is developing the literary skills to call John Delaney a ****.

Also, given I got a C2 in Pass English - and spent the last six months kicked out of the class - it's debatable how much I actually learned from class versus just reading stuff other than The Sun. (And I'm full sure that both helped to some degree).

[kingdom hoop]

Some good posts there. This extract is the key for me though -


I think that the main problem with Irish is that at the moment it is seen as a goal rather than a tool.

This captures the idea that, in schools, Irish is just something that has to be done, there's no great meaning to it, naturally leading to negative consequences. This problem can be looked at in two ways. One, that the problem is more with the education system. Two, that it lies with the broad society. In order to promote learning, there should be a harmony between the two: your education experience should reflect what you experience in daily life. For example, if your local community is awash with talk on Peig or the subtleties of the séimhiú, or if the match report on the Bohs website is in Irish, or whatever, then when you go into class you are (whether you appreciate it or not) invigorated - your interest is heightened and you're ready to learn.

In my experience, the key to learning is making those kind of connections, life inside the classroom being a complement to life outside the classroom.

So overall, we must try to tailor the education system to society. I think the greater the dissonance between the two, the more Irish will struggle.

[Stevo Da Gull]

Where did I say we were naturally terrible? :) I think we're terrible at language because the pervasiveness of English has made us lazy, and the way in which languages are taught in schools is shocking. I learnt probably as much French in two months working with French kids in an outdoor activity centre in the summer after second year college than I did in the 10 (yes, 10!) years I spent doing it in school. The curriculum is focused far too much on preparing people for exams. You can't learn a language by learning off set pieces by heart and vomiting them onto a page, as so many people now do for the Leaving. It's all about being exposed to the language in its natural form.

For me this is the main problem with our education system in general. I even remember my english teacher apologising once about not being able to go into further depth on a topic of interest (and relevance), because it wouldn't benefit us on the leaving cert. We had to focus on getting the comparitive text essays memorised instead. For what it's worth, I think a reasonable amount of the teachers are well aware of the flaws in the system and do their best to educate the students with more than just the leaving cert in mind. I have three or four teachers to thank for keeping me interested in education which has thankfully lead to self-education (and possibly a return to 3rd level education) after secondary school. My leaving cert Irish teacher was an amazing walking encyclopedia of the language.. who's only concern was that we scored highly on the leaving cert. Which is ironic, because he seems to have a genuine desire to keep the language alive.

Granted, I don't know a lot about how the system works, but I'd be willing to risk looking like a fool and say that the teachers don't have enough imput in structuring our education system. I fear that the power lies in the hands of a select few, possibly out of touch, people - but that's a pretty big statement to make for someone who desn't know the facts!

[micls]

As someone who was educated completely as Gaeilge and now teach in a primary school Gaelscoil here are my ramblings on the topic.

1) Primary School- The main problem here is the teachers, please forgive me all my fellow teachers :D. From my experience, the vast majority of those with fluent Irish end up teaching in a Gaelscoil. There are a couple of reasons depending on the person, interest in the language, it's easier to get a job and you get paid more. Probably a combination of all 3.

What this means though is that the vast majority of teachers who are supposed to teach the language arent fluent in it. Now to me this simply makes no sense. How can you teach a language you dont fully have yourself. The requirements to teach irish in primary school are basically a C3 in honours leaving cert which you can get if your good at regurgitating stuff as said above and passing a course in college where you have a 1 hour a week mostly conversational Irish lesson. suffice it to say the vast majority pass.

So, my 2 cents, the system needs an overhall. The curriculum itself is good at primary level but a lot of the teachers arent trained enough to actually teach a language as it should be taught. Personally I think an hour or 2 a week with a fluent Irish speaker coming into the class would be far more beneficial, and interesting, for the kids than 30minutes a day of what's there now.

2) Secondary school- This doesnt only apply to Irish but to all subjects really. We have a modern up to date, child centred primary school curriculum and then a child hits 12 and goes backwards 30 years into an awful system which is basically a memory test. Needs a complete overhall.

Also, I dont think any subject which isnt compulsory for university (i.e. english, maths) should be compulsory for Leaving Cert. Fine for junior cert, but the leaving cert has too much of an impact of a person's future at the moment for a subject which may be of very little use to them in the future and they dont need to be mandatory.

I also think that this would lead to a better standard of Irish teaching and learning. You would need less teachers and therefore the best could be used, and the pupils who choose to study it will have more motivation and interest, whereas in a class at the moment these kids can very easily end up bored and sick of the language because a teacher spends all their time trying to convince the rest of the class to show an interest.

Random ideas, but that's my take on it.

[osarusan]

What this means though is that the vast majority of teachers who are supposed to teach the language arent fluent in it. Now to me this simply makes no sense. How can you teach a language you dont fully have yourself.
Agree with most of your post, but the above quote struck me. As well as talking about Irish teachers, you'd be talking about most French, German, etc. language teachers as well.

You can teach a language you don't fully have, it happens all over the world. It only becomes a real problem when the lack of ability to speak the target language on the teacher's part means the students are actually hearing, and more importantly, acquiring, errors.

The key exception to this being pronunciation.

[micls]

Agree with most of your post, but the above quote struck me. As well as talking about Irish teachers, you'd be talking about most French, German, etc. language teachers as well.

You can teach a language you don't fully have, it happens all over the world. It only becomes a real problem when the lack of ability to speak the target language on the teacher's part means the students are actually hearing, and more importantly, acquiring, errors.

But surely French German teachers etc are fluent in those languages?

As in, they would all have studied the language for years specifically to teach it? And its probably one of 2/3 subjects they teach?

You final point, that's what I meant. That is the real problem. A lot of the teachers don't have the Irish to conduct the lessons even fully in Irish, even though they are required to. Also gramatically, vocab etc there would be a fair few mistakes made. When even the 30mins of Irish a day isnt done in irish fully but more translated from enlgish its very tough for the kids to get the hang of thinking in irish at all.

This would mostly be based on teachers I know, who ahve said as much, or who I have seen teaching like this.

[osarusan]

But surely French German teachers etc are fluent in those languages?

As in, they would all have studied the language for years specifically to teach it?.
I think my idea of what you meant by 'fully have a language' was more strict than yours.




That is the real problem. A lot of the teachers don't have the Irish to conduct the lessons even fully in Irish, even though they are required to. Also gramatically, vocab etc there would be a fair few mistakes made. When even the 30mins of Irish a day isnt done in irish fully but more translated from enlgish its very tough for the kids to get the hang of thinking in irish at all.I didn't realise things were that bad.

[micls]

I think my idea of what you meant by 'fully have a language' was more strict than yours.

I didn't realise things were that bad.

I may be overstating things a bit, maybe others can give there experiences of it?

But I know an awful lot of primary school teacher who would not be able to hold a constant, normal 5 minute conversation in Irish. Take for example subs we get in our school. Many of them simply dont have the Irish to converse with the kids properly in it. Now obviously its different in a Gaelscoil where you teach everything in Irish but imo if you can't chat in Irish without trouble then you certainly can't teach kids how to.

Now, the teachers are doing theyre best, but they simply arent trained in this, the limited time spent on irish in college isnt enough preparation. They can teach the phrases, they can teach the lessons themselves but to me if there's no fluency in the language from the teacher then there wont be from the child. I would be of the opinion that you need to be able to think in a language, and if the teachers cant do this and are constantly translating from English to Irish, the kids will be the same.

[osarusan]

Now, the teachers are doing theyre best, but they simply arent trained in this, the limited time spent on irish in college isnt enough preparation. They can teach the phrases, they can teach the lessons themselves but to me if there's no fluency in the language from the teacher then there wont be from the child. I would be of the opinion that you need to be able to think in a language, and if the teachers cant do this and are constantly translating from English to Irish, the kids will be the same.
We're getting more into general language acquisition here (which is fine for me as that's what I know). I'd agree that if there is no fluency from the teacher, that is one (important) aspect of the language that the student can't pick up (from the teacher at least).

On your last point - I'd be wary of assuming that the opposite is also true - that if teachers can and do think in the target language, it follws that their students will learn to do likewise.

I'm not sure you are assuming this though.