Should League of Ireland Clubs Sign Overseas Players?

[Soccer Mom]

[I want to preface this by saying that this post is not in any way based in racism or xenophobia. It is purely based on, and in, football in Ireland]

In this thread: http://foot.ie/threads/132005-What-Role-Does-the-League-of-Ireland-Play-in-Irish-Football a recurring theme is that the League of Ireland is strategically important because it is the top of the football pyramid in the country and it provides a platform for Irish players to perform at the highest possible level in Ireland.

If that is something that is of strategic importance to Irish football then should League of Ireland clubs sign overseas players?

[gustavo]

I don't see how the 2 points are related ?

[Soccer Mom]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.

[redobit]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.

If they are good enuf they will most probably make it.

Taking Sligo Rovers, as a regional team in the North West of Ireland, we have to sign our fair share of overseas player as it can be hard to coax players away from the Pale especially considering the number of teams there is to choose from. Without the overseas players it would make it a lot harder for us to compete in the Premier Division.

[Dodge]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.

The strategic objectives, as defined by an internet forum...

Under EU laws Football leagues cannot limit the number of EU citizens employed by any particular club. There are limits on non EU citizens in place in the LOI, and indeed through the Work Permit system operated by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Remember that while the League may have the objective of giving a platform for Irish football talent. Individual clubs have no such obligations.

[seand]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.

And every overseas computer programmer employed by Irish software companies in Ireland denies Irish computer programming talent the opportunity to program at the highest level in Ireland, so should Irish software companies sign foreign programmers?

[CSFShels]

Ah here, go away.

[SkStu]

i think CSFShels has summed up my feelings on this and one other thread.

[marinobohs]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.
Every league in the world (including the almighty EPL) has benifited from "overseas" players and coaches. Even if it were legal, which it probobly is not, it would be futile and self destructive for any league to ban "overseas" players.
I am not convinced that any country that tried to limit overseas players (playing in the League) have deemed it a success. Domestic talent will learn so much more (thus developing) from overseas players/coaches than they would ever lose in the way of oppurtunity.

[osarusan]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.

You've agreed on the other thread that clubs have the right to make themselves as successful as possible. If bringing in overseas players helps them to do that, why would you have a problem with it?

Even if you do have a problem with it, you can just as easily argue that bringing in overseas players raises both the domestic profile and the standard of football of the LOI, whic would enhance its 'strategic importance' to Irish football. It will require Irish players to improve in order to dislodge the overseas players, which will lead to a better standard of Irish player.

[sixesandsevens]

Looking at the first thread you started it looked like you had some decent points to make about football in this country, but after seeing this post it just smacks of total bias towards the LOI and plain begrudgery. Thankfully, people have been kind enough to supply you with logical responses, don't think you merit it though.

[SkStu]

to be honest, the original thread was just another "how do we improve the league" dressed up as something more attractive. But eventually we got to the crux of the issue without SoccerMom making any positive contribution. All she did was try to get "us" to justify the leagues existence. Its an attitude like that that holds football back in Ireland and i am fully behind PineappleStu's replies to her on the matter. If Irish people like football as much as is claimed, they should be getting off their fat arses and go watch a local team for the season (with due acknowledgement of the lack of clubs for rural folk).

[sixesandsevens]

Totally agree with you, and the points being made in that other thread did start to crumble the more you read down through it

[Soccer Mom]

Firstly, All I did was pose a question that struck me when reading responses to the other thread referenced at the start. I did not suggest that we should, or indeed can, try to stop signing external talent. As redobit & Dodge quite correctly point out it wouldn't be legally possible. I also understand the point that seand makes about Sligo Rovers needs in this regard. If external recruitment helps to keep LoI football in areas other than just Dublin I'm all for it. It's also difficult to argue with marinobohs and osarusan when they say that, in general, diversification can be good for the game in terms of raising standards.

With regard to some other the other contributers I simply don't understand the intolerance, suspicion, lack of willingness to actually read what I write, and to be blunt - the bad manners.

In the interests of clarity let me try to rephrase:

In the context of (and if you don't agree with this, this thread is redundant for you) the Strategic importance of the LoI providing an outlet for domestic footballers - is it acceptable that clubs import players from overseas? I recognise that some clubs may have an absolute need to import players but as a general concept is it acceptable? And if it is acceptable at what point does it become excessive or indeed damaging to local talent?

[A N Mouse]

In the interests of clarity let me try to rephrase:

In the context of (and if you don't agree with this, this thread is redundant for you) the Strategic importance of the LoI providing an outlet for domestic footballers - is it acceptable that clubs import players from overseas? I recognise that some clubs may have an absolute need to import players but as a general concept is it acceptable? And if it is acceptable at what point does it become excessive or indeed damaging to local talent?

The point at which the country these players come from fail to recognise those playing in their own national league, only give full international caps to their players playing in the LOI and generally rely on our clubs to develop their future internationals, to the detriment of their domestic game.

[Acornvilla]

to be honest, the original thread was just another "how do we improve the league" dressed up as something more attractive. But eventually we got to the crux of the issue without SoccerMom making any positive contribution. All she did was try to get "us" to justify the leagues existence. Its an attitude like that that holds football back in Ireland and i am fully behind PineappleStu's replies to her on the matter. If Irish people like football as much as is claimed, they should be getting off their fat arses and go watch a local team for the season (with due acknowledgement of the lack of clubs for rural folk).

i'd say thou in general no matter where you live you are probably no more than an hour away from a club?

[sixesandsevens]

Every overseas player playing for a League of Ireland club denies Irish football talent the opportunity to play at the highest level in Ireland and therefore confounds one of the strategic objectives of the League.

I think that statement implies that the LOI shouldn't sign foreign players?

[bennocelt]

i think CSFShels has summed up my feelings on this and one other thread.


Snap:D

[Bunny Kelly]

Define local talent?? How many non Dublin teams have been full of Dublin players training in Dublin during the week & only turning up in their 'home' town/city when they have a game? I think this is more damaging than having a player signed from overseas who will actually live where they play & have to live in the same town as their fans

[SkStu]

In the context of (and if you don't agree with this, this thread is redundant for you) the Strategic importance of the LoI providing an outlet for domestic footballers - is it acceptable that clubs import players from overseas? I recognise that some clubs may have an absolute need to import players but as a general concept is it acceptable? And if it is acceptable at what point does it become excessive or indeed damaging to local talent?

you need to look no further that the premier league in England which i think accurately represents where and how the influx of foreigners has damaged the game from grass roots to the international team. Before the influx (some time in the 90's) the amount of foreigners in the game benefitted english players to an extent. The huge increase since then has damaged 99% of the younger players who probably cannot aspire to breakthrough to a premiership first team before the age of 21. Less youngsters are being coached or are training with high calibre British and foreign players. This means that the Championship picks up the slack. Fortunately for the national team, the damage hasnt been great as a country the size of England (and the football culture therein) means that there will always be 22 excellent players to choose for a tournament. There is your answer to the last part of your post.

In response to the strategic element of the LOI to "Irish football" (that loosest of terms) i really hope that you now understand how it currently provides an element of aspiration for a high number of particpants in the game of association football in Ireland. That said, i have consistently posted on this mb over the years about how sadly under-utilised the LOI is by the FAI in shaping its own destiny in football. You need look no further than Turkey or Greece as excellent examples of how a successful, thriving domestic league can transform the sport across the board. It was not too long ago that the Irish national team was thrashing the Greeks 5-0 in Lansdowne Road or the Turks 5-0 at home and 3-1 away from home. Since those days Greece and Turkey have transformed their domestic game (whipping boys to CL regulars) which has greatly benefitted on their national team, ultimately leading to a WC semi-final for Turkey and a Euro championship for Greece. Cyprus and other smaller nations are going the same way.

We are not. We are not in control of our footballing future. We rely on the PL to coach and play our best players. Can you see how much better it would be for us if we could achieve this at home? Develop our own "style", not just the british way. WE ARE TOO RELIANT ON BRITISH LEAGUES! Imagine the money that a successful league would bring to our economy and our junior/underage structures! Our footballing future is crippled and unpredictable and will be for as long as we rely SOLELY on England to develop our youngsters and break them through into the professional game. Do you think it would be better for your son to stay at home and receive his coaching in Ireland by an Irish association?

I dont think it is the fault of the clubs - i believe that, for all the flaws in footie here, the clubs are doing their best to improve things on and off the pitch with very, very limited assistance from their governing body. That is where the blame lies. The FAI needs to grow a piar and structure football correctly in this country and take the power from the schoolboy teams. It will never happen though and football will remain stagnant until such time as the structure is change and the LOI is placed at the top of the pile by the FAI. That is the long term solution to the problem.

That and the apathy of Irish people to live football. A huger majority of Irish people arent the football fans they claim to be, theyre Sky1 fans, Andy Gray fans, fans of glitzy lights and newspaper headlines. True passion for football is exhibited by the 10,000 or so fans that attend and support their local teams games every week. You claim this and that but you have a vested interest in wanting your son to maximise his ability and playing time so you help hang the nets. I dont consider you a fan of football, you're a fan of your son - which is your entitlement. You say you go to Irish games - then you are a fan of the "glitzy lights and newspaper headlines". If Irish people got off their holes and went to games, you would see, as natural course, that the FAI would
reconsider its "strategy" (now theres a laugh) and you would see the full and true benefits of the LOI as a "strategic tool" sooner.

[madblaa]

So, when our Irish players are "good enough" to go abroad, should they be allowed!?! If we barred foreigners coming in, foreign teams would have no choice to bar Irish players, surely?

CSFShels summed it up, ridiculous thread!

[Soccer Mom]

I think we're crossing threads here but since you went to the bother of writing such a detailed post I'll run the risk of being accused of going of topic.


you need to look no further that the premier league in England which i think accurately represents where and how the influx of foreigners has damaged the game from grass roots to the international team. Before the influx (some time in the 90's) the amount of foreigners in the game benefitted english players to an extent. The huge increase since then has damaged 99% of the younger players who probably cannot aspire to breakthrough to a premiership first team before the age of 21. Less youngsters are being coached or are training with high calibre British and foreign players.

Surprise surprise I agree with you on this one. Ridiculous as this thread seems to be to some people it is pertinent. Tonight we have the crazy situation of an Inter Milan team tonight with no Italian in it. Indeed there were only two Europeans in it. I wonder how many LoI supporters would welcome if the same thing happened with our clubs. Where would the platform for Irish players to play at the highest level possible in Ireland be then?


In response to the strategic element of the LOI to "Irish football" (that loosest of terms) i really hope that you now understand how it currently provides an element of aspiration for a high number of particpants in the game of association football in Ireland. That said, i have consistently posted on this mb over the years about how sadly under-utilised the LOI is by the FAI in shaping its own destiny in football. You need look no further than Turkey or Greece as excellent examples of how a successful, thriving domestic league can transform the sport across the board. It was not too long ago that the Irish national team was thrashing the Greeks 5-0 in Lansdowne Road or the Turks 5-0 at home and 3-1 away from home. Since those days Greece and Turkey have transformed their domestic game (whipping boys to CL regulars) which has greatly benefitted on their national team, ultimately leading to a WC semi-final for Turkey and a Euro championship for Greece.

Turkey has a population of 74m Greece has 11.25m but that isn't to say that we can't improve here and for sure the League could do a lot better.


We are not. We are not in control of our footballing future. We rely on the PL to coach and play our best players. Can you see how much better it would be for us if we could achieve this at home? Develop our own "style", not just the british way. WE ARE TOO RELIANT ON BRITISH LEAGUES! Imagine the money that a successful league would bring to our economy and our junior/underage structures! Our footballing future is crippled and unpredictable and will be for as long as we rely SOLELY on England to develop our youngsters and break them through into the professional game. Do you think it would be better for your son to stay at home and receive his coaching in Ireland by an Irish association?

sounds a bit like an anti-British rant if you don't mind me saying. My son isn't that good so it's not relevant but as a concept I would love if the Irish football scene could support all of our best players playing for LoI clubs but it will never be.


I dont think it is the fault of the clubs - i believe that, for all the flaws in footie here, the clubs are doing their best to improve things on and off the pitch with very, very limited assistance from their governing body. That is where the blame lies. The FAI needs to grow a piar and structure football correctly in this country and take the power from the schoolboy teams. It will never happen though and football will remain stagnant until such time as the structure is change and the LOI is placed at the top of the pile by the FAI. That is the long term solution to the problem.

The FAI are not blameless but solutions to most problems are to be found within. If the LoI needs to 'placed' at the top of the pile then it doesn't deserve to be there. Everything in life must be earned. At the risk of repeating myself any improvement in the LoI fortunes must be driven by the clubs. Everyone has a role to play but primarily the clubs must lead.

[An aside: Maybe those that run this forum might consider putting up a sticky thread for LoI fans entitled: What I Did to Promote/Help the League of Ireland This Week]


That and the apathy of Irish people to live football. A huger majority of Irish people arent the football fans they claim to be, theyre Sky1 fans, Andy Gray fans, fans of glitzy lights and newspaper headlines. True passion for football is exhibited by the 10,000 or so fans that attend and support their local teams games every week. You claim this and that but you have a vested interest in wanting your son to maximise his ability and playing time so you help hang the nets. I dont consider you a fan of football, you're a fan of your son - which is your entitlement.

I'm just curious about this, if it's only 10,000 then LoI fans are a tiny minority of the number Irish people that watch football every week. Is everybody else wrong? As a matter of interest my son isn't playing this season as he's doing his Junior Cert (not my idea btw) but I still help out with the training and cheer the team along at the matches. It ain't LoI but it is live and it is passionate.


You say you go to Irish games - then you are a fan of the "glitzy lights and newspaper headlines". If Irish people got off their holes and went to games, you would see, as natural course, that the FAI would reconsider its "strategy" (now theres a laugh) and you would see the full and true benefits of the LOI as a "strategic tool" sooner.

Wishing it, won't make it so. If you want anybody to change you've got to give them an incentive - especially since in most cases you are trying to change the habits (or more correctly - non-habits) of a lifetime. Adopting a superior attitude to people that won't "get off their holes" is likely to alienate people further.

You know SkStu there's probably not that much of a difference between us. We both want a vibrant LoI. You want it by the sheer force of your will. I think it will take some persuasion and the people that have most to gain i.e. the clubs are the ones that should be moving heaven and earth to get people through the turnstiles. Thanks again for your considered response. Now I'm back on topic.

[gustavo]

I think it will take some persuasion and the people that have most to gain i.e. the clubs are the ones that should be moving heaven and earth to get people through the turnstiles. Thanks again for your considered response. Now I'm back on topic.
I can only speak for Sligo Rovers but I don't think theres much more else the club can do to get supporters through than is already being done. Some of which involves getting in better player some of whom happen to be foreign

[Macy]

sounds a bit like an anti-British rant if you don't mind me saying. My son isn't that good so it's not relevant but as a concept I would love if the Irish football scene could support all of our best players playing for LoI clubs but it will never be.
How is it anti British to say that we should we developing our own players, not relying on a failing, underpressure UK system? We should be developing our own players, feeding them into our own leagues. The success rate of kids going over was always poor, in recent years it's a good deal worse. The only long term viable solution is to keep children at home and develop them here, to our own structures. How many "Kevin Doyles" went over at 15, didn't make it and are lost to football forever, whereas if they'd stayed developed here could be at least making a good living as a pro in the leagues here, even if they never made the move abroad, never mind late developers? The best players will always go, that's inevitable.


I'm just curious about this, if it's only 10,000 then LoI fans are a tiny minority of the number Irish people that watch football every week. Is everybody else wrong? As a matter of interest my son isn't playing this season as he's doing his Junior Cert (not my idea btw) but I still help out with the training and cheer the team along at the matches. It ain't LoI but it is live and it is passionate.
They're wrong that they're "supporters", and they're most definitely short sighted as they don't see the impact of their choices - on playing standards, and ultimately on the National Team.

[SkStu]

I think we're crossing threads here but since you went to the bother of writing such a detailed post I'll run the risk of being accused of going of topic.



Surprise surprise I agree with you on this one. Ridiculous as this thread seems to be to some people it is pertinent. Tonight we have the crazy situation of an Inter Milan team tonight with no Italian in it. Indeed there were only two Europeans in it. I wonder how many LoI supporters would welcome if the same thing happened with our clubs. Where would the platform for Irish players to play at the highest level possible in Ireland be then?



Turkey has a population of 74m Greece has 11.25m but that isn't to say that we can't improve here and for sure the League could do a lot better.



sounds a bit like an anti-British rant if you don't mind me saying. My son isn't that good so it's not relevant but as a concept I would love if the Irish football scene could support all of our best players playing for LoI clubs but it will never be.



The FAI are not blameless but solutions to most problems are to be found within. If the LoI needs to 'placed' at the top of the pile then it doesn't deserve to be there. Everything in life must be earned. At the risk of repeating myself any improvement in the LoI fortunes must be driven by the clubs. Everyone has a role to play but primarily the clubs must lead.

[An aside: Maybe those that run this forum might consider putting up a sticky thread for LoI fans entitled: What I Did to Promote/Help the League of Ireland This Week]



I'm just curious about this, if it's only 10,000 then LoI fans are a tiny minority of the number Irish people that watch football every week. Is everybody else wrong? As a matter of interest my son isn't playing this season as he's doing his Junior Cert (not my idea btw) but I still help out with the training and cheer the team along at the matches. It ain't LoI but it is live and it is passionate.



Wishing it, won't make it so. If you want anybody to change you've got to give them an incentive - especially since in most cases you are trying to change the habits (or more correctly - non-habits) of a lifetime. Adopting a superior attitude to people that won't "get off their holes" is likely to alienate people further.

You know SkStu there's probably not that much of a difference between us. We both want a vibrant LoI. You want it by the sheer force of your will. I think it will take some persuasion and the people that have most to gain i.e. the clubs are the ones that should be moving heaven and earth to get people through the turnstiles. Thanks again for your considered response. Now I'm back on topic.

SoccerMom, i wont be getting into this argument with you as i have come to realise the futility of such debates and i honestly have posted on this topic so many times i (and im sure other posters) have grown tired of it.

I do want to point out a couple of things. As Macy has pointed out, my point is clearly not an anti-British rant. Im a bit disappointed that you dismissed it as such and didnt take the point on face value. I hope you can see the benefits of keeping our kids at home as long as possible. The FAI's "strategy" is the complete opposite i.e. allow english clubs to poach our youngsters as young as 14 and hopefully enough make the breakthrough into premiership and sure we can always supplement with a few catholic nordies and some english and scots under the FIFA rules. Wow, what a strategic commitment to Irish football. Its simple, funnel as many of those kids through the league as possible. Sure, the most gifted can still move at a young age (18 would be my preference) but the biggest success stories at the moment are players who stayed in Ireland or returned at a young age to play LOI (Stephen Ward, Keith Fahey, Gary Deegan, Niall McGinn etc). Long term, it is the best and only viable way forward in my opinion.

I still think that the greater Irish sporting public must shoulder a lot of the blame and accusations of laziness or calls to get off their arses are valid. I dont expect it to change anytime soon and i think it will take the clubs making a breakthrough and generally improving and adhering to licensing rules for this to happen. Less apathy from the public, media and FAI would make this job a lot easier for the clubs and it is a pity and unfair that they are so often saddled with the blame in all this and requested to justify their existence. Actually reading that, its quite incredible that we are obliged to do that.

Anyway, as i said, im not going to get into all this again. Good luck to you and i hope you find the answers youre looking for. Id like if you committed to going to 5-10 games yourself this season and see if you are not drawn in by the quality of football, the craic and the passion of the fans for their local team. Thats all it took me.

[Soccer Mom]

I do want to point out a couple of things. As Macy has pointed out, my point is clearly not an anti-British rant. Im a bit disappointed that you dismissed it as such and didnt take the point on face value. I hope you can see the benefits of keeping our kids at home as long as possible. The FAI's "strategy" is the complete opposite i.e. allow english clubs to poach our youngsters as young as 14 and hopefully enough make the breakthrough into premiership and sure we can always supplement with a few catholic nordies and some english and scots under the FIFA rules. Wow, what a strategic commitment to Irish football. Its simple, funnel as many of those kids through the league as possible. Sure, the most gifted can still move at a young age (18 would be my preference) but the biggest success stories at the moment are players who stayed in Ireland or returned at a young age to play LOI (Stephen Ward, Keith Fahey, Gary Deegan, Niall McGinn etc). Long term, it is the best and only viable way forward in my opinion.

I apologise if I came across as being dismissive. Of course I agree that we should keep players at home as long as possible if only - at the very least - to earn a signing-on fee which could be pumped back into the clubs. The reality though is that most teenagers aspire to play in England. Even Roy Keane (I am not carrying a torch for him) admitted that his desire to play for Ireland's u15s was just so that he would be spotted by an English scout. His antipathy towards the FAI stretched back that far as he blamed his, relatively late, breakthrough into English football on the FAI for not picking him for the Ireland U15s. The reality is - whether we like it or not - today's teenagers do not aspire to play in the League of Ireland.


I still think that the greater Irish sporting public must shoulder a lot of the blame and accusations of laziness or calls to get off their arses are valid. I dont expect it to change anytime soon and i think it will take the clubs making a breakthrough and generally improving and adhering to licensing rules for this to happen. Less apathy from the public, media and FAI would make this job a lot easier for the clubs and it is a pity and unfair that they are so often saddled with the blame in all this and requested to justify their existence. Actually reading that, its quite incredible that we are obliged to do that.

The calls to people to go to LoI matches may be valid but it won't make it happen. The Giles/Rovers project in the late 1970's fell flat through lack of support. People put it down to lack of success on the pitch but Giles was followed by Jim McLaughlin who won the League four years in a row. Louis Kilcoyne is on record as saying that attendances had fallen to just 300 during the four-in-a-row season. The point I'm making here is that the problems of lack of interest in the League have been a problem for decades and simply wishing for an increase in attendances won't cut it. Over the years the owners of various clubs have brought the League into disrepute and stumbling from crisis to crisis makes it easy for potential fans to ignore the League. It is going to take positive action by the FAI and the clubs to turn things around. The fans will need to be enticed. Shamrock Rovers is an example of what I mean. They have reached out and the fans (my son now included) have reacted positively. The FAI needs to harness and co-ordinate this type of approach throughout the League.


Id like if you committed to going to 5-10 games yourself this season and see if you are not drawn in by the quality of football, the craic and the passion of the fans for their local team. Thats all it took me.

I doubt if my personal situation will allow me to get to as many as 10 matches but I guarantee that I will get to a minimum of five - but I'm not necessarily the problem. It's the masses of people that are blind to the LoI that needs to be tapped. That's the challenge for the FAI and the LoI. I'm still inclined to the idea of putting up a sticky thread with the title What I did to promote my club / the League of Ireland this week. It may seem a bit banal but it can't do any harm.

[bennocelt]

The calls to people to go to LoI matches may be valid but it won't make it happen.
The point I'm making here is that the problems of lack of interest in the League have been a problem for decades and simply wishing for an increase in attendances won't cut it. Over the years the owners of various clubs have brought the League into disrepute and stumbling from crisis to crisis makes it easy for potential fans to ignore the League. It is going to take positive action by the FAI and the clubs to turn things around. The fans will need to be enticed. Shamrock Rovers is an example of what I mean. They have reached out and the fans (my son now included) have reacted positively. The FAI needs to harness and co-ordinate this type of approach throughout the League.

I doubt if my personal situation will allow me to get to as many as 10 matches but I guarantee that I will get to a minimum of five - but I'm not necessarily the problem. It's the masses of people that are blind to the LoI that needs to be tapped. That's the challenge for the FAI and the LoI. I'm still inclined to the idea of putting up a sticky thread with the title What I did to promote my club / the League of Ireland this week. It may seem a bit banal but it can't do any harm.

Do you not also think that maybe Irish people are just not really interested in football? Or sport in general? More the Irish public than the product

Look at Portsmouth, Gretna, any league in the world - they are all having problems not just our league - at least this season Cork and Derry got their just rewards, the LOI is moving in the right direction.
You can only do so much - horse to water and all that

[kid creole]

but I'm not necessarily the problem. It's the masses of people that are blind to the LoI that needs to be tapped.

That's the point of this really , you are the problem but also the solution , support your junior club by all means and come to a few games , but quit the condescension , your more than welcome any weekend and bring your son too , hope his junior goes well.

[Acornvilla]

isnt gretna a village with only 400 people living there? no hope that club would survive once the owner died.. and portsmouth was a case of redicilous spending and the owner getting sick aswell?