What Role Does the League of Ireland Play in Irish Football?

[Soccer Mom]

The 2005 Genesis Report stated the following:

"The Eircom League is a central cog in the FAI Technical Plan. It is critical that a strong domestic league acts as the pinnacle of the football pyramid and pathway to create an integrated development structure. The league is of key strategic importance to football in Ireland."

Is it really true that the League of Ireland is strategically important to football in Ireland?

[Soccer Mom]

Strategically means 'of great importance within an integrated whole or to a planned effect' - what would the consequences for Irish football be if the League ceased to exist?

[A N Mouse]

We'd be unable to feel morally superior to the great patriots who follow foreign teams?

[Soccer Mom]

We'd be unable to feel morally superior to the great patriots who follow foreign teams?

I never knew that was why we have a League of Ireland :)

By some estimates an average of only 10,000 people attend a full round League of Ireland matches on any given weekend and the League doesn't provide any players to the senior national side - so I ask again - How strategically important is the League to Irish football?

[Mr A]

It's the best level of football in the country. And there are several players in the Ireland squad that came via LOI clubs. They tend to get magically better when they join a UK club.

What's the point you are trying to make here by the way?

[osarusan]

Is it really true that the League of Ireland is strategically important to football in Ireland?

How strategically important is the League to Irish football?

It sounds like you are confusing "Irish football" with the Irish national team.

Its importance to the latter, in terms of players plaing in both at the same time, is small, but its importance in the far wider picture of Irish football in general is much bigger.

[Schumi]

the League doesn't provide any players to the senior national side - so I ask again - How strategically important is the League to Irish football?

How strategically important is the national team to Irish football?

[Dodge]

We'd become a laughing stock within UEFA circles
We'd have no international team (see the setting up of the Wlesh league for this type of precedent)

We'd then have no income into Irish football which would, of course, affect all levels of the game

Not to mention the fact that as the only professional level of the game in Ireland, it gives a huge amount of employment to people working in football.

[Soccer Mom]

What's the point you are trying to make here by the way?

I'm not trying to make a point. It's a genuine question but I am coming from the angle that there seems to be a lot of resources put into something that appears to be in terminal decline. I just wonder if there was no League of Ireland would it have a negative impact on the wider football community?

[John83]

How strategically important is football to national football? Would Cork have been any less entertaining if it had been a hockey team in meltdown? No! Would the story of Stephen Ireland's granny's funeral been any less entertaining if he were a rugby player? No!

National football - better because it's Irish. (Bugger the football.)

[Soccer Mom]

We'd become a laughing stock within UEFA circles
We'd have no international team (see the setting up of the Wlesh league for this type of precedent)

Sorry but I don't understand that. How does the existence of the League impact one way or the other on the national team?

[QUOTE=Dodge;1323917] then have no income into Irish football which would, of course, affect all levels of the game

If you're right about your first point then this is a very relevant issue.


Not to mention the fact that as the only professional level of the game in Ireland, it gives a huge amount of employment to people working in football.

Employment (while important to those affected) is not a good enough reason to maintain a league. It certainly wasn't the reason why it was set up in the first place.

[Soccer Mom]

How strategically important is the national team to Irish football?

That's a different issue and if you want to start a new thread on that I'll gladly give my humble opinion on that.

[osarusan]

Sorry but I don't understand that. How does the existence of the League impact one way or the other on the national team?

You are not allowed to have an international team without having a domestic league, with very very few exemptions.

[Soccer Mom]

You are not allowed to have an international team without having a domestic league, with very very few exemptions.

Oh. Didn't know that. I presume that's a FIFA rule - so who are the exceptions - and do you know why the exceptions were made?

[pineapple stu]

Liechtenstein is the only exception I know of because of its size. They compete in the Swiss leagues. Though the likes of Andorra, San Marino and even Monaco have their own leagues.

[Soccer Mom]

Liechtenstein is the only exception I know of because of its size. They compete in the Swiss leagues. Though the likes of Andorra, San Marino and even Monaco have their own leagues.

Thanks for that info. In any event I'm not really suggesting getting rid of the League. I just think that perhaps (and it's only a 'perhaps' because I am not in possession of all the relevant facts) it absorbs too much money and other resources that may be to the detriment of football at other levels in the country.

[peadar1987]

I'm not trying to make a point. It's a genuine question but I am coming from the angle that there seems to be a lot of resources put into something that appears to be in terminal decline. I just wonder if there was no League of Ireland would it have a negative impact on the wider football community?

I'm willing to bet that Giovanni Trapattoni receives more money each year from the FAI than the 20+ league clubs in Ireland. The resources the clubs have to work with have to come from the fans, and sponsorship, and the clubs themselves fight tooth and nail to keep themselves in existence, with minimal help from the FAI

[Soccer Mom]

I'm willing to bet that Giovanni Trapattoni receives more money each year from the FAI than the 20+ league clubs in Ireland.

Quite possible. Total prize money for the two leagues was €1.25m. With Denis O'Brien's help I think Trapp earns €2m. Could be wrong on both counts though.


The resources the clubs have to work with have to come from the fans, and sponsorship, and the clubs themselves fight tooth and nail to keep themselves in existence, with minimal help from the FAI

OK now we're getting somewhere. Why should the FAI help the League of Ireland clubs? What do League clubs do for football in Ireland?

[Mr A]

What do League clubs do for football in Ireland?

Apart from playing it at the highest level in the land? And giving the best players in the country an outlet against each other?

What is it you want from the League of Ireland?

[Dodge]

Why should the FAI help the League of Ireland clubs? What do League clubs do for football in Ireland?

What does any club do for football in Ireland?

If you don't think the highest level don't do anything for football in ireland, you must think the leagues below the LOI do even less?

[Soccer Mom]

What is it you want from the League of Ireland?

I don't know at the moment but if the FAI and the Genesis people produce a report that states that the LoI is strategically important to football in Ireland then I'd like to know in what way. I know I should direct the question to the FAI but they don't reply to my emails. I just think that it's all too easy to use such expressions as 'strategically important' without actually justifying it. I still haven't heard a credible reason except for the FIFA rule. That's a technicality rather than strategic.

[Soccer Mom]

What does any club do for football in Ireland?

If you don't think the highest level don't do anything for football in ireland, you must think the leagues below the LOI do even less?

I don't mean to be pedantic Dodge and I'm not trying to put anyone on the defensive but I don't believe that the majority of people who play, follow or are involved with football in Ireland would agree that the LoI is strategically important to Irish football. If I'm missing something then please tell me.

[Soccer Mom]

IF you read the report you're quoting you'll find out.

If you can't understand that, or the numerous posts here answering you, then there's little more we can do for you

The report is one of the worst I have ever come across. The Genesis people got their money very easy for that one. The point is; I HAVE read the report and I couldn't see how they could sustain the quote that I used in my original post. To me it seems to be a case of the Emperors clothes. I cannot see any objective rationale for the quote. Sorry

[Mr A]

I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned this before, but the highest level of football (and attendance) in the jurisdiction would indicate a certain strategic value.

You can't have a football pyramid without a tip.

Unless you don't want a pyramid.. which seems to be the point here.

[stovelid]

If we scrapped the LOI, schoolboy football would get more money and have no competition for their schoolboy-export business.

Anyway, if we want one of those auld "pyramid tips", sure isn't Engand only across the water?

[Soccer Mom]

If we scrapped the LOI, schoolboy football would get more money and have no competition for their schoolboy-export business.

Anyway, if we want one of those auld "pyramid tips", sure isn't Engand only across the water?

Well actually that is a pertinent point. My guess is that there are very very few young players that aspire to play football in the League of Ireland. The vast majority want to play for one of the big English teams so for them that's where the pyramid does peak.

[weecountyman]

Soccer Mom, it can never be explained and despite the lack of clarity in Genesis, the LOI provides the following.
1. A level for domestic players to aspire to.
2. A outlet for players who are a) late developers, b) not lucky enough to have made it at a higher level, c) competent at the highest domestic level and due to work/personal/family circumstances unwilling to travel abroad.
3. In it's strictest application rungs (PD,1D,AC) for young local players to progress through.
4. A means of generating sporting interest locally.

Now, in a pure financial sense it is a self-propelling model, to a degree. Players in the LOI are not sending their tens of thousands to offshore accounts, their pay packets are insufficient for this.
a) The wages are spent locally, thus repaying the local economy.
b) The running of clubs provides employment for players, backroom and other anciliary staff.
c) Transfer fees generated by sales of players related to the league are almost entirely inward - rarely do LOI clubs pay foreign clubs for players.
d) The tax take generated on the LOI has never been published (to my knowledge) but it should be decent enough.
e) Impressive performances in Europe raise the level of expectation in Irish football and the profile of the domestic game.

Without a LOI there would be a drop off in interest in football in Ireland, a skewing in funds circulating in areas where clubs are located and remove an outlet for footballers in in our country. Thus it is of strategic interest to maintain the LOI.

[pineapple stu]

Quite possible. Total prize money for the two leagues was E1.25m.
Bear in mind clubs pay close on half a million between them to enter the league.


Well actually that is a pertinent point. My guess is that there are very very few young players that aspire to play football in the League of Ireland. The vast majority want to play for one of the big English teams so for them that's where the pyramid does peak.
Sure let's give up everything bar the Premiership so, shall we?

There are enough players who want to play in the LoI to keep it going. The fact that even the bottom LoI sides have decent - I think mostly positive - records against non-league sides in Cup competitions indicates that the LoI caters for the top players in the country.

[stovelid]

Sure let's give up everything bar the Premiership so, shall we?
.

Well, no. Young Kian and Jordan still need a schoolboy club to play in until they get to their teens. Somewhere the SUV can get to conveniently.

Then they can support the real league over in England like mum and dad.

Only trouble is the LOI - sitting there unfashionably, refusing to die and hoovering up money that could be going to the schoolboy district leagues. Or worse still, trying to muscle in on the schoolboy export/cottage industry/conveyor belt to England.

[bluemovie]

Is it really true that the League of Ireland is strategically important to football in Ireland?

To pretty much everyone on this forum, the League of Ireland IS football in Ireland. Everything else is just a sideshow.


You can't have a football pyramid without a tip.

Unless you don't want a pyramid.. which seems to be the point here.

Does that make it a truncated square pyramid??? I'll let a UCD fan answer that one.

[Soccer Mom]

Thank for that considered reply weecounytryman. I appreciate that.

I don't agree with all the points that you make but then I presume that's what this forum is for :) Of course I see strategic value in having a national football league but in my opinion the League of Ireland is not as strategically important at the moment (or back in 2005) as Genesis would have us believe.

Here are some of the objectives that were set back in 2005:

*) Increase the average attendances at League of Ireland matches from 1,882 to 4,000 / 5,000
*) Have successful clubs in all major population centres
*) Have League clubs competing in the Champions League group stages
*) All clubs to adhere to licensing requirements

If the FAI ever achieve these objectives then maybe the LoI will have reached a substantial strategic importance.

[Schumi]

Does that make it a truncated square pyramid??? I'll let a UCD fan answer that one.

A prism would be my guess. :)

[Rasputin]

Is it really true that the League of Ireland is strategically important to football in Ireland?
Your whole perspective is quite entertaining because it is firmly rooted in an absolute barstooler perspective.
The LoI is the pinnacle of football in Ireland whether you are willing to accept that or not.
It is therefore the most important and strategic aspect of football in Ireland.
Football clubs maintain football in a country, not national teams.
Your whole perspective is warped by some kind of Premiership outlook.
The LoI is without question the highest rung of the ladder for football in Ireland, it might not be shiney and fashionable like the Premiership or Merchandise United but it is what it is, the pinnacle of football in this country.
Thats why it is of strategic importance to Ireland.
Without Irish Players playing at such a high level in Ireland the standard of football in Ireland would drop significantly.
Like I said clubs maintain the football in a country, not the national team thus the National League is infinetly more important than the National Team.

[Bluebeard]

Maybe if we could cut out the middle men, football could be so much better. It would just be big international teams, and clubs. What need for a League of Ireland, or a league of Wales - they really don't get the huge numbers that the more popular and therefore better clubs do. Indeed, what need a Championship in England. And really, look at how many people over the years have been picked up by clubs without ever having played more than a few games at underage level, anyone who is any good at the age of 14 could be sent to England, or maybe Scotland if they are ugly.

Really, though outside of England, Italy and Spain, maaaayyyyyyybbbeee Germany, what good are any of the other leagues. In fairness, there is a club here and there, like maybe St. Petersberg that are ok. Even within those leagues, there is a lot of dross. Who honestly cares about Real Betis v Recreativo? 40,000 people you might say? Proportionately speaking, that is nothing in Spain, about the same as the 3-4,000 who turned up for Munster Derbies. Cut these nobodies, and you can stream it into maybe 4 teams in Spain, 6 (or 8 if you include Scotland) in England, three maybe in Germany (I'm killing myself with generosity on this), five in Italy. That gives us 20, enough for one super duper Euro league. The rich clubs want it. The rich administrators want it. The rich TV stations want it. Let's have it.

When we are at it, then, we should certainly do away with the Junior clubs: what point is there in having guys who clearly cannot play top level football playing at all; it is an embarrassment. Besides, when they get to the top of their game, if they have passed, say, 20, they really are not going to develop if they are not playing for a better side than the local junior team, so why bother if they have not made it already - they have no chance of making it.

Most of those junior sides are even worse than those woeful no-hoper teams like Albania, or the Faroes, or Belgium these days. Granted Belgium used be good once, but they missed their chance, and seriously, they are never going to win the world cup. I mean to ask, is there any purpose in watching someone who really has no hope of doing winning. Do they serve any purpose but to be footballing fodder. Uruguay might have won it once, but that was almost 100 years ago, and what have they done since? Diddly-squat, that's what. They are not good enough to be playing at the top level, and we should eliminate them from it too. We really should eliminate any side that has failed to make the semi finals of a major championships (obviously not Asian, North American, or African) in, say, 8 years? It would be better too, reduce the number of meaningless qualifiers too, it would. That should give us perhaps 16 teams? Nice numbers for a World Cup every 2 years rather than 4. The managers of the big clubs will be grateful.

Yes I like this, it is streamlining football. Sky will go crazy for this.

[weecountyman]

Thank for that considered reply weecounytryman. I appreciate that.

I don't agree with all the points that you make but then I presume that's what this forum is for :) Of course I see strategic value in having a national football league but in my opinion the League of Ireland is not as strategically important at the moment (or back in 2005) as Genesis would have us believe.

Here are some of the objectives that were set back in 2005:

*) Increase the average attendances at League of Ireland matches from 1,882 to 4,000 / 5,000
*) Have successful clubs in all major population centres
*) Have League clubs competing in the Champions League group stages
*) All clubs to adhere to licensing requirements

If the FAI ever achieve these objectives then maybe the LoI will have reached a substantial strategic importance.

Genesis was strange, in that it gave lots of aims but the actual on the ground infrastructure wasn't really ready. Raising attendances is not an aim unless the quality of the match day experience, and by extension atmosphere, and facilities are dealt with first of all then there is no hope, no matter when Dundalk win the Europa League!


Getting into the Champions League group stage is always going to be the impossible dream, and reaching the 1st proper knockout round of both CL and EL should be the priority to bring more cash into the league and attract a better class of players in/home. The league was never given it's full importance by the FAI and nor will it ever be, imo.

[peadar1987]

I know it was a joke - and so was mine - I have no friends !

Seriously though, I came to this forum because I hoped to get an understanding of why the League of Ireland (I have no absolutely problems with the name) is so important. And I do get the answers that people have kindly posted but I get a sense of passion rather than reason. I'm going to go away now and have a think about things and maybe come back with a more focused question / point.

Surely you don't need a reason to see why it's important apart from the passion you've seen on this thread when you questioned the validity of the league. It's a major part of life for a lot of people around the country, and that in itself is enough to justify its existence.

[dahamsta]

Dodge's biannual rant moved here (http://foot.ie/threads/132028-Dodge-with-PMS). Now shut up the rest of ye and either answer the question or ignore it.

[ped_ped]

The League of Ireland IS Irish football. It is the top rung of football with players that play IN Ireland week in week out.

[Soccer Mom]

Dodge's biannual rant moved here (http://foot.ie/threads/132028-Dodge-with-PMS). Now shut up the rest of ye and either answer the question or ignore it.

Obviously I'd prefer if people answered, rather than ignored, the question but thanks for the air-clearing dahamsta.

[Soccer Mom]

The League of Ireland IS Irish football. It is the top rung of football with players that play IN Ireland week in week out.

I presume you would agree that is just one view. And clearly it's not the majority view. I've been doing a little bit of research on football in Ireland and it is clear to me that Irish football, in all it's facets, is in need of a really radical overhaul. The problem is, as this thread clearly demonstrates, there are many views of what football is in Ireland. Personally I believe that, as in all sports, our athletes should aspire to represent Ireland at the very highest level. Therefore football in Ireland should be, first and foremost, about the national team. That's where the IRFU got things so right (I realise the current rugby situation could be a flash in the pan) when the professional era dawned. Admittedly they had the option of the Celtic League and the Heineken Cup as a platform for a reduced number of top flight Irish clubs. But what they did was to make the national team pre-eminent. The provinces and the clubs defer to the needs of the national team.

That doesn't mean that I am advocating the demise of the League of Ireland but I do believe that it should adopt full amateur status. Whether we like it or not there simply is not the support for a professional league. This has been proven time and time again and the current difficulties just underscore that. League of Ireland clubs need to look back into, and cater to, their local communities. The GAA do this very successfully and money that comes through the gate goes back into constantly regenerating the game.

[Acornvilla]

for god sake professional football here is completly viable here as long as the clubs dont spend money they cant afford whats the averag wage in ireland per week can anyone tell me? i have my doubts its over 400 euro so why cant footballers live off anywhere around and above (where clubs can afford it)?

[Soccer Mom]

The average industrial wage is just over €600. Professional footballers have to earn a premium because, for most of them, their football earnings are confined to 15 years or so. With the attendances that LoI matches get it's just not viable.

[Acornvilla]

[MOD EDIT: Don't edit your post to apologise for caps, edit the caps out!]

[osarusan]

That doesn't mean that I am advocating the demise of the League of Ireland but I do believe that it should adopt full amateur status. Whether we like it or not there simply is not the support for a professional league. This has been proven time and time again and the current difficulties just underscore that.
The current difficulties don't underscore it though. The current difficulties underscore the fact that if you spend money you don't have, you'll get into trouble. That doesn't mean professional football isn't possible for some teams.


To answer your question - you see the national team as superseding all other things when it comes to "Irish football."
Fair enough - in that case I'd say that the LOI isn't of strategic value, not would it be even if it met the criteria set out in the Genesis report.

But I think that the view that you're taking is pretty narrow.

As I've already said, the question you seem to be asking is "how important is the LOI to the Irish national team?", rather than to "Irish football."

[Soccer Mom]

There's more caps there than Steve Staunton has :)

OK let's do the maths but first we need some basics:
1) Put a figure on an average weekly wage for LoI players - let's use your original €400
2) Average professional squad ? Let's say 20 players
3) LoI clubs play 18 home matches
4) Average attendance per match? - Last figure I saw was 2,043
5) Average ticket price - lets say €12 (mix of adults, kids etc and erring on the high side)

That works out at a maximum of €424 per player per week. That doesn't leave any money for other costs involved in running the club.

[Acornvilla]

your leaving out income from fund raising, sponsorship, match day income (shop) club merchindice, tv money and prize money...

[Schumi]

There's more caps there than Steve Staunton has :)

OK let's do the maths but first we need some basics:
1) Put a figure on an average weekly wage for LoI players - let's use your original €400
2) Average professional squad ? Let's say 20 players
3) LoI clubs play 18 home matches
4) Average attendance per match? - Last figure I saw was 2,043
5) Average ticket price - lets say €12 (mix of adults, kids etc and erring on the high side)

That works out at a maximum of €424 per player per week. That doesn't leave any money for other costs involved in running the club.

You think clubs have no income other than gate receipts?

[Soccer Mom]

The current difficulties don't underscore it though. The current difficulties underscore the fact that if you spend money you don't have, you'll get into trouble. That doesn't mean professional football isn't possible for some teams.

I fully accept that some clubs can sustain it, if they are financially prudent, but for most it's not a runner.



To answer your question - you see the national team as superseding all other things when it comes to "Irish football."
Fair enough - in that case I'd say that the LOI isn't of strategic value, not would it be even if it met the criteria set out in the Genesis report.

But I think that the view that you're taking is pretty narrow.

As I've already said, the question you seem to be asking is "how important is the LOI to the Irish national team?", rather than to "Irish football."

No. I'm also questioning the value of the League of Ireland clubs in helping the game at schoolboy level also. I think the LoI clubs need to embed themselves to a greater degree in their local communities.

[peadar1987]

That doesn't mean that I am advocating the demise of the League of Ireland but I do believe that it should adopt full amateur status. Whether we like it or not there simply is not the support for a professional league. This has been proven time and time again and the current difficulties just underscore that. League of Ireland clubs need to look back into, and cater to, their local communities. The GAA do this very successfully and money that comes through the gate goes back into constantly regenerating the game.

The GAA is in a completely different situation. They haven't got one of the largest marketing machines for anything in the world blaring away 70 miles to the east, promoting an almost identical competitor product. If people want Gaelic games, they have the GAA, and nothing but the GAA. If people want football, it's hard to ignore the loud noises and shiny things bombarding us from our neighbours. Going amateur is only going to convince them that the LOI is an inferior product.

[Soccer Mom]

your leaving out income from fund raising, sponsorship, match day income (shop) club merchindice, tv money and prize money...

I realise that but without sufficient revenue coming through the gate you are building on sand.