The Solution

[SkStu]

Even though im far from politically aware or even mildly interested, i enjoy coming to this forum as it gives me a basic lesson in how the country is being run and the issues that have arisen before and after my absence.

I read over and over about the failure of FF to take advantage of the economic boom while it was happening and how that has exacerbated the problems that are faced by Irish people now that the country is in recession.

My question is, for all the complaining about FF, what is the solution? Is there a viable alternative government out there? Are there politicians with the interests of the country as their priority as opposed to their own local or selfish interests?

Is one party not just as bad as the other cos, to be perfectly honest, thats how i remember it. FG are just as bad as FF, theyre so bad theyre barely even an alternative.

Im asking the people there, what is the alternative government, one that will be successful and beneficial to the Irish? What are the major issues that need to be addressed?

[John83]

Ah, the great Irish call to lethargy, which constitutes the greatest argument for voting for FF. Yes, the others are crap. There's a reason for that: FF has been in power for all but two years since 1987. Why would anyone (but the odd idealist) with any talent or ambition join a party the Irish public will not vote into power. As long as we keep voting in all the old familiar places, we'll never get anything resembling a good government.

[SkStu]

Ah, the great Irish call to lethargy, which constitutes the greatest argument for voting for FF. Yes, the others are crap. There's a reason for that: FF has been in power for all but two years since 1987. Why would anyone (but the odd idealist) with any talent or ambition join a party the Irish public will not vote into power. As long as we keep voting in all the old familiar places, we'll never get anything resembling a good government.

no, no - i have no political allegiance at all. I voted once when i lived in Ireland and i think i voted Labour.

Im just looking for a bit of discussion on what options there are... and what the most important issues are in the opinion of the posters here.

[Mr A]

Not sure how people can say that there isn't an option. The last FG-Lab coalition was quite short lived but was certainly one of our better administrations.

There are some yahoos in FG, but some talented people as well and although I'm very uncomfortable about some of the people Labour have accepted into the party recently I think they have quite a few good people too. Certainly between those two parties they could field a reasonably strong front bench.

And to be honest, even if they weren't much better, the fact remains that FF have screwed up royally and unless they are put out of power nothing will be learned from it. One party dominating regardless of performance is never a healthy thing in any democracy.

[Fr Damo]

Not sure how people can say that there isn't an option. The last FG-Lab coalition was quite short lived but was certainly one of our better administrations.

There are some yahoos in FG, but some talented people as well and although I'm very uncomfortable about some of the people Labour have accepted into the party recently I think they have quite a few good people too. Certainly between those two parties they could field a reasonably strong front bench.

And to be honest, even if they weren't much better, the fact remains that FF have screwed up royally and unless they are put out of power nothing will be learned from it. One party dominating regardless of performance is never a healthy thing in any democracy.

It was said somehwhere (i think the new Labour councillor who is ex Shinners) that Ruairi Quinn is an Authority on absolutley everything though never suceeded at anything. I think the FG/Labour of the 90s set us up for the initial stages of the Celtic Tiger. Quinn lowered Corporation Taxes, the Dell's Etc came in and income taxes started to be cut. Consumption increased exponentailly. This was all good, until Bertie and McCreevy came on the scene, just in time for the ECB!
I'm not too sure about the Gilmore Labour myself but if FG can keep the Unions in line between the two of them I think they could put a credible team together. Certainly James O Reilly, Mr Lee, R Bruton and Joan Burton & the Dr from Blanch, even Gilmore could do a job somewhere, maybe Defence.

What needs to change regardless is the manner in which the electorate is happy enough to let things go if their personal circumstances are ok. We need more outrage at times, blood scandles, waiting lits for cancer scopes, planning tribunals that go on for years costing a billion squids and no one gets jail. A prime minister who says he won the money on the horses is deemed to be a lovable rougue, and a qute hoore, in Italy he would have lost two teeth and received a broken nose! (not that I condone violence mind)

People also need to realise that the Billons McNamara, Kelly, Carroll owe is going to be repaid by us the tax payer, and that no glee should be got from seeing any of those clowns being kicked out of their homes. It changes nothing. We have tendancy of being a bit quick with things like that.

[dahamsta]

+1 FG/Lab. I have problems with both and it makes less sense than last time around since Labour is far too close to the center now, but it makes the most sense. It makes 1000% more sense than continuing with what we have.

[Rasputin]

I'm not too sure about the Gilmore Labour myself but if FG can keep the Unions in line between the two of them I think they could put a credible team together.
Because this is what Ireland desperately needs right?
Someone to make those unruly democratic manifestations of the Irish people toe the line?

[jebus]

Bruton over Lenihan as Finance Minister alone would make an FG/Lab coalition more attractive than what we have currently

Not to mention Female Bruton, Varadkar, and Lee

Plus, and this is the reason I despise Irish people so much, we need to change the whole idea of politics in this country. People need to be held accountable for their failings and actions and at the moment the Irish electorate seem to indicate that it is okay for a public servant to be a thieving, lying scumbag, because sure aren't we all at heart. I for one sincerely hope and doubt that that is the case and FF need to be punished with a long spell in the political wilderness for their mismanagement of this country, harking back to the Haughey Era.

In truth the Irish will either a) vote FF back into power because one of them has cancer, b) be wowed by a very large neon sign saying Vote Fianna Fail and vote them back in or c) vote for a FG/Lab coalition, give it six months, decide that since we're not all out in new Rolls Royces that this isn't working and get Bertie back in as Supreme Leader

Was in Churchill or Thatcher who said that the Irish cannot govern themselves? Whichever it was they were right.

I'm off to spraypaint Brits In on walls around town

[Macy]

There are plenty of alternatives, that aren't in hock to builders, bankers and developers. The people who apparently worry about the Labour - Union links(which are certainly exaggerated, particularly financially) are usually the same people that give out about public sector pay increases and benchmarking given over the last 10 years, which were all given when Labour weren't in power.

If you bother to check out the Labour or FG you will see plenty of alternative policies to the current Governments, never mind the smaller parties. The electorate can give the weight they want to those policies in the post election negotiations. The biggest issues both have alternatives to the Government on the likes of NAMA/Sorting the banking sector, they published alternative budgets. If you don't look, you won't see.

As for personnel, anyone who couldn't see a better cabinet out of Labour and FG isn't really looking very hard. O'Reilly or Harney? Rabitte or Ahern? Lenihan or either one of Bruton/ Burton? Quinn or Hannifin? Lee or Sweary? Gilmore or Cowen? etc etc etc

I find the "whats the alternative" one of the most pathetic arguments there is. It normally comes from people to conceal their guilt about voting FF in the past, or from FF heads themselves. (I know the op says he isn't, but it normally is)

[Fr Damo]

There are plenty of alternatives, that aren't in hock to builders, bankers and developers. [QUOTE]The people who apparently worry about the Labour - Union links(which are certainly exaggerated, particularly financially) are usually the same people that give out about public sector pay increases and benchmarking given over the last 10 years, which were all given when Labour weren't in power.

Not sure the relevance of this tbh, I worry about labour simply becuase they are more pliable in my mind. I don't think you can compare the last ten years vis-a-vis benchmarking, with the next ten years and possible recovery. Pay scales, effeciencies and labour per sector will have to be negotiated seperatly and not the one fits all solution the government had the luxury of in the 'good times'.

Thought Ryan Tubridy played to the crowd with Kenny on Friday night with populist comments. Doesn't he have bloodlines through FF? Maybe he felt he had to give Kenny as hard a time as he gave Cowan.

[jebus]

[QUOTE]

Thought Ryan Tubridy played to the crowd with Kenny on Friday night with populist comments. Doesn't he have bloodlines through FF? Maybe he felt he had to give Kenny as hard a time as he gave Cowan.

By that do you mean he didn't give him a hard time at all?

[Fr Damo]

Well from memory I think Tubridy said after the Cowan interview that perhaps he should have given him more time to answer some of the questions and there were some (not me) who felt Cowan was perhaps rail rushed along.

On friday with Enda Kenny he pushed the SF question two or three times and was apparent Kenny couldn't explian (in an honest way) why he wouldn't make a pact with them prior to election. The Crowd applauded Tubridy a couple of times when Tubs questioned kenny and to me, it illustrated that that particular audience were not too anamoured with kenny as a possible leader in the next dail. It was as if they were happy to see him stumble.
Just an observation. Then again, there is alot of apathy out there.

[bennocelt]

The problem with FG/Lab are their economic policies - can they work together on this?

Never voted for FF in my life, and HATE people who complain about FF then you find they voted for them in the last election. What the hell did you expect:rolleyes:

The thing is as soon as FG get in, you just know people will support FF again in droves.

Pity there isnt a monster raving looney party around as they would be getting my number one

[Bluebeard]

Pity there isnt a monster raving looney party around as they would be getting my number one

http://www.icecreamireland.com/images/Caughtwic/JackieHealyRae2-sm.jpg
Are you sure?

[dahamsta]

The problem with FG/Lab are their economic policies - can they work together on this?Of course they can. Labour and FG - and FF for that matter - are closer together now than they've every been in history. Labour is as close to center-left as you can get while still calling yourself Labour and wearing a red tie.


The thing is as soon as FG get in, you just know people will support FF again in droves.Of course they will, such is the cyclical way of life. Get used to it, it's how the world works.

[jebus]

Well from memory I think Tubridy said after the Cowan interview that perhaps he should have given him more time to answer some of the questions and there were some (not me) who felt Cowan was perhaps rail rushed along.

There's a reason for that style of interview and it's usually to allow the interviewee an opportunity to seem like they know what they are doing by pushing out a load of empty rhetoric without being probed for actual details of how they will do the deed, example

Tubridy: 'People are angry, they've lost their homes, can FF pull us out of this?' (makes Tubridy seem like he is on your side as well)
Cowen: 'Yes we can. It will involve us all pulling together and working through this, but the Irish people have done so before and I know we can do so again.' (makes Cowen seem like he's on your side by using we and by praising you)

and that was pretty much exactly what Tubridy's interview was like. No queries as to how exactly FF are going to dig us out of this mess, no attack on Cowen for being the minister who presided over the entire thing (and who is now asking us to trust him again) and also did you notice that Tubridy ended the Cowen interview by asking him if he thinks it's fair that some tabloids had focussed on his drinking? That is a clear trick to get us on his side at the end because it quite obviously isn't alright for the media to attack him on this unless he's falling out of office drunk, plus he gets to do his man of the people schtick by saying that he enjoys a pint like the rest of us after a hard day. Look back on it again and watch the way the crowd are against him at the start and by the end they quite like him. I'd say Cowen would even admit he doesn't come across the best to an audience, and the change in attitude was down to Tubridy's manipulation of his mindless sheep (or is that Lemmings?) audience. Tubridy of course being a Fianna Fail man

[Fr Damo]

Thanks Jebus, very good and interesting analysis.

So, it seems FG / Labour it is. Now as per the OP, what are the policies that need changing or addressing? (I'm assuming NAMA is up and running btw).

As a side note, the EU recommends that BOI don't pay the government the 230m euro due from the the bailout last year. Instead issue bonds/shares. I saw these bonds in Lidl yesterday, beside the toilet duck and above the air freshener.

[peadar1987]

Labour's drift to the right is a major problem with the party political system. It seems that the party are more concerned with getting into power at any cost than providing a credible left-wing alternative to FF. It's the same in the UK with "New Labour", who are in reality a right-centre party.

[Macy]

I'd agree Irish Labour has drifted more towards the centre, but you're way off comparing it with the UK Labour party and it's lurch across the centre ground to out tory the tory's on the right. FF claim to be left of centre (I don't buy it), but in that context much of the electorate must see Labour still as practically communist.

Biggest problem with the political system is the electorate - it's them that have allowed it to be dominated by the two right wing parties. If the problem was that the Labour party was moving too far towards the centre, surely the Shinners or the Socialist Party or the Workers Party or People before Profit/ Socialist Workers Party would clean up? It's a symptom rather than the problem imo.

[dahamsta]

I do buy it. As a former member I've watched the drift, and Gilmore in particular seems to fancy himself as an Irish Blair. That's why I left. (Or rather it's one reason, disrespect for rules and members (http://verbo.se/dear-senator-alan-kelly) is the other.) He's not entirely to blame though, Rabbitte - much as I like him - started the shift, and Quinn's probably responsible for initiating it.

I don't have any problem with a center-left Labour Party, the center is where society should aim to be; and while a left-wing party is always needed for balance, hardline left-wing just results in silliness. I do have a problem with center-center though, because balance is needed, and unfortunately that's where Labour finds itself today.

[peadar1987]

I'd agree Irish Labour has drifted more towards the centre, but you're way off comparing it with the UK Labour party and it's lurch across the centre ground to out tory the tory's on the right. FF claim to be left of centre (I don't buy it), but in that context much of the electorate must see Labour still as practically communist.


Sorry, I didn't explain myself too well. I meant that Irish Labour are changing their core policies in order to get into power, as Tony Blair did with Labour in Britain. Of course, the shift has been nothing near the magnitude of that experienced by labour, who in the early 90s were still the party of the trade unions and disenfranchised. We've seen where the traditional labour support in the working classes has now gone; towards xenophobic quasi-facists like the BNP and UKIP, who have stepped into the void.

[irishultra]

ireland should have an economically right wing party

[Macy]

ireland should have an economically right wing party
As well as, or instead of FF, FG and the now defunct PD's? Or is my sarcasm radar broken?