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Celdrog
11/01/2010, 5:16 PM
Lifted from our forum

from today's daily mail.
FAI won't tolerate budget defaulters
Hardline approach to finances likely to cause even more problems

By Mark Gallagher

IT HAS been an eventful few days around Dalymount Park. After four trophies in two years, Pat Fenlon should have been allowed to make a more edifying exit. Instead, the Bohemians board engaged Dundee United in a Mexican stand-off over compensation and with his chance at moving to a bigger stage receding, it's understood that 'Nutsy' feels let down by the club he has led to two straight league titles.

As if Bohemians didn't have enough to worry about. Tomorrow, a delegation from the Phibsboro club (of which Fenlon as manager is supposed to be a part) meets with the FAI to set out their budget for the 2010 season.

This doesn't necessarily mean the association is keeping a closer eye on the champions' finances (every League of Ireland club must get their budget approved), but the meeting will have major implications in whether the Gypsies can claim a third successive title.

Bohemians, like Cork City, are currently under a transfer embargo after spending most of last season ducking and diving around the 65 per cent salary cost protocol.

FAI sources confirm that they believe the champions will make it. But barely. 'We are not saying by how much, but we are confident that Bohemians will be under the 65 percent,' says an FAI insider.

However, the transfer embargo hasn't stopped the champions shaking hands with players. Sligo Rovers talisman Rafael Cretero and Barry Murphy, the Shamrock Rovers goalkeeper, are two understood to be on their way to Dalymount. The deals, though, must get the association's green light tomorrow.

IT'S THE same for everyone. On November 24 last year, only a few days before the transfer window opened, the FAI sent an email to each club. It informed them that while they would soon be free to sign players, the association reserved the right to refuse the registration of any player if the FAI felt it failed to comply with the budget approved for 2010.

Hence the lack of horse-trading in the past five weeks. However, there are also signs that clubs are attempting to curtail reckless spending. Initial estimates, based on club management accounts submitted to the FAI, show that total losses for all clubs in the league are roughly €2.7m, the same figure as for 2008, which is remarkable considering the depth of the recession last year.

Moreover, two Premier Division clubs, neither of whom are Cork City, were responsible for 90 per cent of those losses (one, a prominent Premier Division club, accounted for over 70 per cent of the losses alone). A third Premier Division club also lost a six-figure sum. But when clubs travel to Abbotstown this week, most will do so in a much healthier position than they were in 12 months ago. However, few have been busy in the window.

St Patrick's Athletic are remarkable simply because they have signed 10 players, running the risk that some of them may not be registered. 'We couldn't wait around forever,' says Pat's commercial director Phil Nolan. 'We released all our players at the end of last season. But we are confident our budget will be approved.'

However, some clubs have been holding fire. 'If you reach agreement with a player at the moment, you're doing so in a vacuum,' maintains another club official. 'Agreements have been reached and hands have been shook, but nobody is going to unveil players until they are certain of their budget.'

Bohemians and Cork were supposed to be the first two clubs up as they are under transfer embargo, but the process began last week as Bray Wanderers and Shelbourne requested earlier meetings

Each club is represented by their chairman, finance officer, general manager and first team manager. If the club is a limited company, there is also a company director present. Each club representative must sign off on the budget.

OF COURSE, budgets were approved last year and many clubs, most strikingly Cork, disregarded them. 'That will not happen this year,' insists an FAI source. 'If we believe the contract of any player pushes a club over its budget, we will not register him.' The sagas at both Cork City and Derry City did untold damage to the league's credibility (what little of it was left) last year.

FEARS: Nick Leeson 'I know of two clubs that were negotiating with sponsors at the time of the incident with the bus down in Cork,' Galway United CEO Nick Leeson recalls. 'Then the story hit the airwaves about Cork City players not being able to get to Dublin because their driver hadn't been paid, and the next day there were pictures in the papers with players in the boot of a car.

'The sponsors came back to both clubs the following week and said they didn't want to get involved and pointed to that incident. Things like that affect every club. If clubs continue to trade recklessly, we won't have a league in a couple of years.'

Galway, who are confident of settling an outstanding revenue debt, have drastically cut back this year. But so has every club. Sligo Rovers are slashing their playing budget by between 30 to 35 per cent while St Pat's, who are returning to a parttime set-up, have cut first team expenditure by almost 40 per cent.

'Things like that show we are going in the right direction,' adds a source. 'Most clubs are trying to do things right and that will be reflected in the budgets that get approved.'
Club A - Lost €1.89m
Club B - Lost €540k
Club C - Lost at least €100k
Club Cork City seemingly excluded from the above.
Club Derry City - are they B?

Club C could be Drogs or Dundalk

Doomofman
11/01/2010, 5:20 PM
C could always be us... I know we had a reduced budget last season but I could still see us making a loss...

Mr A
11/01/2010, 5:26 PM
I'd imagine C is Dundalk. They projected such a figure but wouldn't be in the top two.

Infadel
11/01/2010, 5:41 PM
Our owner announced we lost 200k before the season ended altohugh I don't know if our final finish prize money had any bearing on this.

danthesaint
11/01/2010, 5:50 PM
C could always be us... I know we had a reduced budget last season but I could still see us making a loss...

dont think it was us we had fats transfer and our european run and our budget cuts

Riddickcule
12/01/2010, 12:14 AM
Not us anyway our finances are sound....

pineapple stu
12/01/2010, 9:31 AM
There can surely only be one Club A?

Longfordian
12/01/2010, 9:43 AM
UCD obviously.

Mr A
12/01/2010, 9:44 AM
Why were Cork excluded I wonder? Lack of accounts perhaps?

OneRedArmy
12/01/2010, 10:05 AM
Nonsensical comparisons.

You need accurate and complete books to get a P&L. Wellvan's liquidator hasn't completed his work, so, on the basis our old board didn't know our debt, not sure how a newspaper does.

Whilst other clubs aren't as extreme, I still wouldn't place that much weight on audited accounts for a few of them.

pineapple stu
12/01/2010, 10:08 AM
UCD obviously.
Nah, the college covered that.

EnglishSource
12/01/2010, 10:08 AM
Why were Cork excluded I wonder? Lack of accounts perhaps?

Presumably the journo doesn't want to directly spell out which club it is that lost nearly 2 million quid, but does want to allow readers to speculate which club it is. Cork would have been the obvious guess if they had not been explicitly excluded.

The club could only be Derry or Bohs IMO. My guess would be Derry purely as I don't think even the FAI would have the brass neck to expect anyone to believe that Bohs lost nearly 2 million quid yet still managed to sneak under the SCP.

MariborKev
12/01/2010, 10:16 AM
Without jumping the conclusion of the administrator, I'd be more than confident we didn't lose €2m in the year.

Club B looks about right for us I'd reckon.

Mr A
12/01/2010, 10:54 AM
Yep, it's gotta be:

A: Bohs
B: Derry
C: Dundalk

pineapple stu
12/01/2010, 11:11 AM
the process began last week as Bray Wanderers and Shelbourne requested earlier meetings
The two clubs rumoured to be on standby for a spot in the Premier. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

HulaHoop
12/01/2010, 11:18 AM
How can one club make a loss of 1.89 million? That is 36 grand a week. That's not a budget of 36 grand that's a trading loss of 36 grand a week :eek:

How is it possible to make a trading loss of 1.89 million yet still comply with the 65% SCP?

danthesaint
12/01/2010, 11:25 AM
How can one club make a loss of 1.89 million? That is 36 grand a week. That's not a budget of 36 grand that's a trading loss of 36 grand a week :eek:

How is it possible to make a trading loss of 1.89 million yet still comply with the 65% SCP?

pats made losses of 2million 08 season apparently

OneRedArmy
12/01/2010, 11:28 AM
How can one club make a loss of 1.89 million? That is 36 grand a week. That's not a budget of 36 grand that's a trading loss of 36 grand a week :eek:

How is it possible to make a trading loss of 1.89 million yet still comply with the 65% SCP?Its not a "trading loss". Its a P&L figure that may well bear no remsemblence to a cashflow statement.

I'm not saying its not accurate, it just isn't the most relevant figure.

weecountyman
12/01/2010, 11:49 AM
What about Drogheda? Or Pats, especially if the losses were not specifically football related?

Sean South
12/01/2010, 11:51 AM
If A = B-C x A. What is D?

Fr Damo
12/01/2010, 11:52 AM
How can one club make a loss of 1.89 million? That is 36 grand a week. That's not a budget of 36 grand that's a trading loss of 36 grand a week :eek:

How is it possible to make a trading loss of 1.89 million yet still comply with the 65% SCP?



I am assumimg the league club's financial year is the calender year to coincide with the tax year and therefore football season?

If so ORA,I would have thought the above statement is very relevenat. If wages are there or thereabout within 65% of income, what could they have possibly spent the other 35% on to create this paper loss of 1.89m?
Cash flow statemets are what got others (when they counted on expected prizemoney) out of trouble before but isn't this excersise in retrospect of the last accounting period i.e last season. All accrauls and prepayments, interest paid and receivable, prizemoney, fines etc etc in the books.

EnglishSource
12/01/2010, 12:01 PM
If wages are there or thereabout within 65% of income, what could they have possibly spent the other 35% on to create this paper loss of 1.89m?


I wouldn't be up there with the Nick Leesons of this league;), but surely their loss is the difference between income and expenditure. So the figure spent on extra curicular activities should be their loss + 35% of income. Apologies if I misunderstand.

OneRedArmy
12/01/2010, 12:01 PM
I am assumimg the league club's financial year is the calender year to coincide with the tax year and therefore football season?

If so ORA,I would have thought the above statement is very relevenat. If wages are there or thereabout within 65% of income, what could they have possibly spent the other 35% on to create this paper loss of 1.89m?
Cash flow statemets are what got others (when they counted on expected prizemoney) out of trouble before but isn't this excersise in retrospect of the last accounting period i.e last season. All accrauls and prepayments, interest paid and receivable, prizemoney, fines etc etc in the books.Not true.

A cashflow statement is infinitely more useful in assessing the financial health and stability of a small business.

Small businesses go under by running out of cash, not by a loss on a P&L. Also, P&Ls are susceptible to manipulation and "judgement", e.g. revaluing assets, fiddling with depreciation etc.

Fr Damo
12/01/2010, 12:13 PM
A cashflow statement is infinitely more useful in assessing the financial health and stability of a small business.


Agree 100% obviously but assumed that if wages in a P&L were greater than 65% of the income in the same P&L, permission denied. Obviously way too simple for the geniuses we have running the league and the mavericks running the clubs.

pineapple stu
12/01/2010, 12:18 PM
How is it possible to make a trading loss of 1.89 million yet still comply with the 65% SCP?
I suppose you could buy part of your ground for E1.1m and sell another similar part of it to the same people for E1m.


A cashflow statement is infinitely more useful in assessing the financial health and stability of a small business.
In fairness, while that's correct, Bohs have headroom from the Zurich loan it seems, but the P&L will affect them because that's what the 65% is based on. Cash will see them go boom, but the P&L will see sanctions taken against them 9such as the continuation of the transfer embargo)

John83
12/01/2010, 2:52 PM
If A = B-C x A. What is D?
A suffusion of yellow.

SkStu
12/01/2010, 3:03 PM
im pretty relieved reading this thread.

I thought, from what Rovers fans have been saying, that we were Club A, B and C.

pineapple stu
12/01/2010, 4:37 PM
im pretty relieved reading this thread.

I thought, from what Rovers fans have been saying, that we were Club A, B and C.
Only a Bohs fan could be "relieved" at only losing E1.9m. ;)

Dillonman
12/01/2010, 4:45 PM
I think Drogheda are up there before us and if Derry count aswell, they had a fe debts hanging about the Brandywell! You have to ask though, where did the paper get their info from?

Celdrog
12/01/2010, 4:48 PM
I think Drogheda are up there before us and if Derry count aswell, they had a fe debts hanging about the Brandywell! You have to ask though, where did the paper get their info from?We thought it came from you and your mates - was it not?

Dillonman
12/01/2010, 5:01 PM
We thought it came from you and your mates - was it not?

Could say the same about you lot seen as though it came from YOUR forum!!!:o

Celdrog
12/01/2010, 8:30 PM
It's from the Daily Mail :D

Dillonman
12/01/2010, 10:30 PM
It's from the Daily Mail :D

and was first posted on your forum....!;)

SkStu
12/01/2010, 11:13 PM
Well you are A third right....

well you are a turd, right.....

;)

Dalymountrower
24/09/2021, 8:40 AM
Sorry, bumped this thread title as could find no other recent suitable on.
Irish Times reporting €1.8 million loss for Shamrock Rovers for the year up to November 2020. Presumably the Scales transfer Bazunu bonuses, euro money have reduced that in 2021?

mcgonigle
24/09/2021, 11:00 AM
Yeah but have you seen the state of Dundalk and the size of their budget and hey look over there....

brendy_éire
24/09/2021, 12:47 PM
Sorry, bumped this thread title as could find no other recent suitable on.
Irish Times reporting €1.8 million loss for Shamrock Rovers for the year up to November 2020. Presumably the Scales transfer Bazunu bonuses, euro money have reduced that in 2021?

Does it matter though, if Desmond is going to cover it?

Dalymountrower
24/09/2021, 1:17 PM
Does it matter though, if Desmond is going to cover it?

I suppose he could buy another % of the club

Nesta99
24/09/2021, 2:04 PM
Does it matter though, if Desmond is going to cover it?

DD isnt the something for nothing type, he'll get his money back or something in lieu. Some of those Scales add-ons might get binned for his first grá.

bohsmug
24/09/2021, 3:38 PM
Does it matter though, if Desmond is going to cover it?

Is there any suggestion that he will?

sbgawa
24/09/2021, 8:58 PM
t think the 1.2m in transfer fees + extra 1m in europe this year will help /
also dissapointing to see IT doing a "sun" on it with the 1.8 headline when 800 k was the Football club writing off 800k from the academy which is an 800k profit in academy.
Its like moving a tenner from your left pocket into your right. embarressing


Harps looked good tonight

Nesta99
24/09/2021, 8:59 PM
Denial!!

sbgawa
24/09/2021, 9:01 PM
no just an aversion to bad jourmalisim.
1m is bad enough, just report the actual facts, not just a headline for the uneducated.
dissapointed with the Times

Calcio Jack
24/09/2021, 9:11 PM
no just an aversion to bad jourmalisim.
1m is bad enough, just report the actual facts, not just a headline for the uneducated.
dissapointed with the Times

IT readers aren’t uneducated so they read the full article not just the headline , so no issue with their reporting and of course the uneducated don’t even know the IT exists so again not an issue that they’ll be mislead

sbgawa
24/09/2021, 9:15 PM
Not so sure
, a lot of people just read the headline and don't understand inter company stuff. Expect better from the I.T

Calcio Jack
24/09/2021, 9:27 PM
Not so sure
, a lot of people just read the headline and don't understand inter company stuff. Expect better from the I.T

I was being facetious

sbgawa
24/09/2021, 9:33 PM
Sry.
Genuinely disappointed with the times who can normally be relied upon for semi intelligent comment, I suppose even the IT need clicks these days

Nesta99
24/09/2021, 11:37 PM
I was being facetious

Me too really. Any club, even those FT club with a strict wage structure, will have accumulated significant debt from 2020/21 (2000 avg gate at a cheap €10 for a season is a hole of 3-400k, European games etc etc). If a club was budgeting on a Cork City model of high and stable gate receipts it could be terminal stuff. European prizemoney, player sales, some creative accounting between different parts of a club/use of assets and losses can be absorbed. Throw in owners than can cover (some) losses also. It's remarkable that so far we havent had a serious SOS from any club so far.

redobit
25/09/2021, 6:54 AM
Sorry, bumped this thread title as could find no other recent suitable on.
Irish Times reporting €1.8 million loss for Shamrock Rovers for the year up to November 2020. Presumably the Scales transfer Bazunu bonuses, euro money have reduced that in 2021?

When a club racks up these kind of losses (which are significant in LOI terms) you really wonder about the point of Licencing and projected budgets at the start of each season.

Im sure having DD to come in or the same way POD has covered Derry wage overrun the last few seasons is handy. What club wouldn't want that safety blanket.

But the point remains ... licensing is pointless and without consequence.

nigel-harps1954
25/09/2021, 10:13 AM
If you're racking up those sort of losses while the government are paying the vast majority of your wages during 2020, you need to look at your wage structure quite seriously.