Citizenship Referendum

[brendy_éire]

Great! Another one! :D Sure aren't they hard to beat, every politican loves a good oul vote.

This one's on whether children born in Ireland are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. I reckon Brussels might have something to do with this one. They're probably not happy that anyone born in Ireland can simply claim Irish citizenship, thus EU citizenship. The amendment will also get rid of the whole 'payment for passports' craic, of getting a passport for investing in the country.

What's everyone's opinion on this? I'm all for it. Our immigration system needs tidying up. We're the only state in the EU to give automatic citizenship to children born in Ireland. It makes us look like a soft target for economic migrants. Hopefully the referendum will sort that out.

(could this be made into a poll?)

[dahamsta]

Sure and begorrah if Bertie doesn't like de result he gets, we can always have anudder one.

Spell out a poll and I'll merge one in.

adam

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by dahamsta
Spell out a poll and I'll merge one in.

Poll: Do you agree with the Government's proposed constitutional amendment allowing the right to citizenship to be decided by legislation?
Answer: Yes. No.

[Duncan Gardner]

I'm all against it.

Apart from being discriminatory, it's not a great idea economically. Refugees moving to Ireland from outside the EU- whether they move for economic or political reasons or some combination of both- have made an effort and taken risks to be there. They're much more likely to stay than someone from Britain, Spain or America I would guess. Their enterprise and their children's are worth having.

[dahamsta]

Too long brandy_eire. Tighten it up a bit if you can.

Personally speaking I wouldn't let the current Government decide what toilet paper to use.

adam

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by dahamsta
Too long brandy_eire. Tighten it up a bit if you can.

Personally speaking I wouldn't let the current Government decide what toilet paper to use.

adam

Do you agree with the Government's proposed constitutional amendment?

[Éanna]

Thank god its going to a referendum and they're not allowing that shower in leinster house to decide it. I don't see any reason why we should deny citizenship to people born on this island- imagine what would happen if Britain or the US or Australia decided to withdraw that right and send all the Irish back from those countries, in the 50's 60's 70's or 80's? this country would have gone even further down the tubes.

[Macy]

Originally posted by Éanna
I don't see any reason why we should deny citizenship to people born on this island- imagine what would happen if Britain or the US or Australia decided to withdraw that right and send all the Irish back from those countries, in the 50's 60's 70's or 80's? this country would have gone even further down the tubes.
I don't think they ever conferred that right to be able to withdraw it. Certainly in Britains case anyway. As it is now, a kid born in the North has automatic right to Irish citizenship, but not UK citizenship. Whatever about the US and Oz, we're the only European country that has no residency period tied in with citizenship.

[SÓC]

We are the only country in the EU who allow Citizenship on birth. It was on Morning Ireland that a significant number of non-Eu nationals come to Ireland to have their children and then go to another EU country, seeing as the child is now an EU citizen.

Dont really see how it effects us that much. The effect is being felt more in places like the Uk. Perhaps the rest of the EU are leaning on Bertie.

[eoinh]

people who are born in Ireland are entitled to Irish citizenship in my view.


Immigration into a country makes the recieving country richer not poorer egs Britain, usa, australia. those who are old, sick or have large families dont tend to move.


It makes more sense to me to deny citizenship to those who are born outside of ireland to irish citizens. c'mon is tony cascarino really irish?

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by eoinh
c'mon is tony cascarino really irish?

course he woz mate. :rolleyes:

[Troy.McClure]

IMO, if you are born somewhere in the world, you should be alowd be a national of that country. Now, whether your parents should be alowd become a citizen of that country is another question (Id lean towards no).

The Poll: Should children born in Ireland automatically be given citizenship here?

[liamon]

I seem to remember a discussion on here a few days ago discussing if the Irish are racist or not.

Surely the introduction of such a referendum is just another example of the growing hostility of people on this island towards non-nationals.

Given the fact that the supreme court has already declared that the parents of a child born in Ireland do not get the right to reside here, I see no need to introduce such a change in our citizenship laws.

In summary, I'd vote no.



Then again, I'll oppose any amendment this governemet puts forward after the disgraceful way in which they ignored the democratic result from the initial Nice referendum.

[Éanna]

Originally posted by liamon
Surely the introduction of such a referendum is just another example of the growing hostility of people on this island towards non-nationals.
If you substitute "government" or "facist minister for justice going unchecked" for "people" I'd say you're spot on. Its not so much the question thats being raised, as how its being raised and when that disturbs me. Pat Rabbitte is right (rare enough you'll hear me say that) McDowell is trying to make race and election issue. The guy is a bigger threat to Irish democracy than the IRA as far as I'm concerned.

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Conor74
McDowell wrote an article in the Sunday Business Post as long ago as 2002 pointing out that the outcome of the Supreme Court case could well necessitate a referendum on the issue of citizenship.
Well if he thought of it 2 years ago, why hasn't he done anything about it?!

[patsh]

Conor,
Leaving aside your atavistic attitude to him, Pat Rabbitte is 100% correct. There is NO other reason for bringing this issue up at this time, except for electoral reasons, and to win the votes of the vast amount of people in this country who cannot tolerate people from Africa and Eastern Europe living in this country.
There are no economic, security or EU considerations or reasons for this.
McDowell has been in Government and been the AG for a good few years now. He has been in a position to do something about this for a year or more. As regards writing in the Sunday papers,
this is the same guy who wrote an article about the shame he felt at looking at immigrants queueing in the rain, and how SOMETHING must be done.
Himself and that other total waste of space, Harney, are great for talking about things, getting their "views" in the papers, but they DO NOTHING except push their own extreme agenda.
In a few short years they have, ably abetted by McCreevy and Ahern, destroyed what ever was left of a society in this country, and turned us into an economy where nothing matters except money, image and the individual.
Give me ONE reason why a Constitutional amendment must take place now.

[liamon]

Seriously Conor, has the current FF led government ever made any mistaks in your opinion?
You defend every single decision they make and tow the party line. Can you not step outside your political affiliations for just a few minutes and consider alternate viewpoints?

[Dricky]

My thoughts are that we must tighten up these laws, they were originally there to protect the child to ensure a family unit, which is for the child’s benefit, the idea was people only had children because they wanted children. I ask how can you protect the child when it is their parents that are using them as a pawn for the movement through the country where every other adult has to apply for a visa if a non eu applicant. They are creating a child to force an issue. Not all are but enough to create this problem.

To create a child to use as a means to and end is what is wrong, it is being abused I feel is being tightened up. We live in a world where our ideal is being exploited, it was there with good intention but it is now being abused, a child should not be the pawn here. If you take that away then they won't be having children so as to remain here.

What is being proposed and I am open to correction on this is, if the child is born to people with the right to be in Ireland the will be able to claim citizenship until they are 18 and then they will be entitled to apply for full citizen ship.

[pete]

Is there any proposal where we could withdraw citizenship from some irish people?

:D

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by pete
Is there any proposal where we could withdraw citizenship from some irish people?

:D

starting with "tom the gom" :rolleyes:

[patsh]

Originally posted by Conor74
Because the longer we leave it the greater the problem gets. And it is a problem. I'm not into that hysteric rubbish about crime waves and taking our jobs, but the present situation whereby one member of a family may be Irish while his siblings and parents may not be allowed to even remain in the country is remarkable and unacceptable. When does Rabbitte want it done? In 5 years? 10? When 50% of the children born in our capital are to parents who may be deported? 75%? What would be the solution then? Leave half the family? The mother and child perhaps? Deport all of them but keep just the Irish child and put him/her in the care of social services?
I know I have a problem with McDowell et al, but you really a serious problem with Rabbite, Why?

Originally posted by Conor74

When is the right time to correct a serious problem? Now.
WHAT SERIOUS PROBLEM?
Article 9 has been around since 1937, all of 67 years.
No matter what way you try to spin this, this is another step along the way of the mindset that does not want blacks, or any kind of eastern europeans in this country.
The first step has been to make sure that parents of children born here are not entitled to stay.
Then the new immigration legislation will go a long way to ensure that people will find it very difficult to apply for refugee status, as it will be made very hard for them even to land here.
Next, we make sure the children of anyone who manages to get through will have no right to citizenship.
All steps along the way to a country that wants as much as possible to have a white, first world only population.


To make it all worse, the plan is to drop it into the middle of local and European elections.
One of the most important aspects of any state is its citizenship, and its constitution. What is being touted is a fundamental change to both. Will that immense change be debated in a clear, non-political way, free from petty electioneering?
Not a chance if it goes ahead during the other elections.

And therein we find the basic attitude of FF/PD. EVERYTHING is reduced to votes, confuse the issues as much as possible, DO NOT give people the knowledge to make informed choices. This country has a majority of people whose only concern is how much money they can get their grubby little paws on, so make up some farcical claims about costs, and the vote is won. Gombeenism is alive and well, and it's orchestrators don't like anyone asking questions. Anyone who dares to question or criticise is dismissed as a pinko or a lefty, derided even though they have valid and important points.
Can you not see the damage that is being done to this country?
Do you care?

[brendy_éire]

Originally posted by patsh
Article 9 has been around since 1937, all of 67 years

The amendment regards changes to Article 2, which was last edited after the GFA to guarantee citizenship for people born in the north.
"It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation."

Maybe McDowell is trying to turn this into an election issue, but maybe it should be? The right to citizenship is fundemental any country, so why shouldn't it be an issue at elections?
IMO, there's more to being Irish than simply being born here. Giving out citizenship as is done now with children of non-nationals, in a way, cheapens the idea of nationality (as does giving people citizenship because of investment in the country).
As Conor74 already said, if I was born in Spain while my parents were on holiday, why should I have any right to claim Spanish citizenship? The curren situation is non-sensical and needs to be changed. Fair play to FF/PDs (not something I say much) for tackling the issue. And I'm sure Europe gave them a wee nudge as well. ;)

[WeAreRovers]

Originally posted by Macy
As it is now, a kid born in the North has automatic right to Irish citizenship, but not UK citizenship. Whatever about the US and Oz, we're the only European country that has no residency period tied in with citizenship.

Macy, there's a very particular reason for that. In 1998 we voted overwhelmingly to ammend articles 2 & 3 of our Constitution. Article 2 was amended to say that any child born on the island of Ireland has the automatic right to citezenship.

As far as I'm concerned this a cornerstone of our very nationhood and FF/PDs want rid of it for reasons of politically expediancy (as ever :( )
Personally I'll be out on the streets campaigning against this one (and while I'm at it I might as well do a bit of canvassing for the Shinners ;) )

KOH

[eoinh]

Originally posted by patsh
I know I have a problem with McDowell et al, but you really a serious problem with Rabbite, Why?

WHAT SERIOUS PROBLEM?
Article 9 has been around since 1937, all of 67 years.
No matter what way you try to spin this, this is another step along the way of the mindset that does not want blacks, or any kind of eastern europeans in this country.
The first step has been to make sure that parents of children born here are not entitled to stay.
Then the new immigration legislation will go a long way to ensure that people will find it very difficult to apply for refugee status, as it will be made very hard for them even to land here.
Next, we make sure the children of anyone who manages to get through will have no right to citizenship.
All steps along the way to a country that wants as much as possible to have a white, first world only population.


To make it all worse, the plan is to drop it into the middle of local and European elections.
One of the most important aspects of any state is its citizenship, and its constitution. What is being touted is a fundamental change to both. Will that immense change be debated in a clear, non-political way, free from petty electioneering?
Not a chance if it goes ahead during the other elections.

And therein we find the basic attitude of FF/PD. EVERYTHING is reduced to votes, confuse the issues as much as possible, DO NOT give people the knowledge to make informed choices. This country has a majority of people whose only concern is how much money they can get their grubby little paws on, so make up some farcical claims about costs, and the vote is won. Gombeenism is alive and well, and it's orchestrators don't like anyone asking questions. Anyone who dares to question or criticise is dismissed as a pinko or a lefty, derided even though they have valid and important points.
Can you not see the damage that is being done to this country?
Do you care?

I agree totally!

Anybody who is blase about returning minorities to Turkey for example (as Conor mentions) should read "From the Holy Mountain" by William Dalrymple.

[patsh]

Originally posted by Conor74
No more than many many Sociaists and those who were expelled from the Labour Party in the purges of the early 90s. Bet Mick Barry would have more antipathy than I, but then again bet he has more integrity than Rabbitte who (apparently, and I only heard this from a member of the SWP) strolled into a union job and has never grafted on a factory floor yet comes over all bolshie when it suits.
Well hearsay is always definitive....:rolleyes:


The first step has been to make sure that parents of children born here are not entitled to stay.
That was a decison of the Supreme Court.
So? The SC make decisions on political and economic grounds ALL the time


Seeking to redefine what constitutes being 'Irish' is not some grubby question for votes, it's a serious issue. It was not an issue for the first 60 of the past 67 years for the simple reason that the movement of people went the other way, out of this country.
If it's as serious as you say, and it is, why make it an issue for votes?
Thats exactly what McDowell is doing, with his plan for holding it as part of the elections.


As for gombeenism or daring to ask a question, I posed quite a few in the previous post about when does the matter become pressing and how do the opposition propose to carve up families where one minor is Irish and the remainder non-national. I'm not asking you personally to answer, I don't see you as some spokeman for Rabbitte or others.
Your party and their partners greet EVERY question they don't like with derision, mockery and evasion. They NEVER answer a question. That is gombeenism of the worst sort, playing to the gallery by substituting insults for debate. "Creeping Jesus's", "Pinkos" etc, etc direct quotes about anyone who dares hold a different view.


But has anyone on the opposition benches come up with a plausible way of addressing the issues other than a referendum?
I've heard nobody on the oppostion benches disagree with a referendum, the questioning is about the timing and holding it at the same time as petty electioneering and point scoring by all parties will be at its height.


Or is it just a question of knocking McDowell, a relatively easy target...
Well now, you can't turn on a radio program, watch TV news, open a newspaper or venture near a lecture hall without getting McDowell's latest rant against all targets, both hard and easy. The last time he made so much noise must have been...let me see...the last election?
And again, to disagree with McDowell is not to voice legitimate concerns, but to "knock...an easy target". If he is an easy target, I'm Ahern's makeup assistant....:rolleyes:

[A face]

Originally posted by Conor74
I just don't accept that FF are responsible for everything that goes wrong in this country

Just out of curiosity ... how long have they been in power over the last say ... 10-15 years ??

I was speaking to someone during the week who thought that all the good FF are doing now is undoing all they did in the past. I asked for an example and he said just name a tribunal, what would you have said to him Conor ??

[Macy]

Originally posted by Conor74
I mean, I don't remember it raining milk and honey during the FG/Labour coalition of the 1980s
Look a bit closer to home for the problems of the 80's Conor. Sure it was the last overall majority that FF got that put the country in that mess.....


Originally posted by Conor74
nor do I remember the Rainbow Coalition of the mid 90s conferring any lasting benefit for which I am still thankful.
When exactly did the "good times" start? Was it not the policies of around that time that started the boom. It wasn't a Rainbow Government that frittered away the surpluses on tax breaks for the rich.

My main problem with the referendum is the timing. Why this couldn't have been brought up and voted on months ago is beyond me. I'll be filing this along with Cullens One off housing guidelines, Brennan's widening of the M50 (I'd be happier if he got the fúckin thing finished first), Bertie binning/ toning down Hanly and McCreevy's "budget" announcement on decentralisation as an attempt to buy the local and european elections.